Turgis or Turgisins de Tracy (Sire de Traci)

[Dec Tracey]

Hi,

Does anyone have any information on the Tracys before the invasion of
england?

Is there any connection between them and Tracy-sur-Loire?

The following is an extract from CHAPTER XI. Those Unidentified. The
Conqueror and His Companions. by J.R. Planché, Somerset Herald.
London: Tinsley Brothers, 1874.

"TRACIE, "Sire de," l. 13,605.
The Norman family of Tracy does not appear to have been of much
importance in England before the reign of Stephen, who bestowed upon
Henry de Tracy the honour of Ben stable (Barnstaple) in Devonshire;
but the first of the name we hear of is Turgis, or Turgisins de Tracy;
who with William de la Ferté was defeated and driven out of Maine by
Fulk le Rechin, Count of Anjou, in 1073, and who was therefore in all
probability the Sire de Tracy in the army at Hastings. Tracy is in the
neighbourhood of Vire; arrondissement of Caen, and the ruins of a
magnificent castle of the middle ages were and may still be seen
there. In 1082 a charter was subscribed at Tracy by a William de Traci
and his nephew Gilbert (Gallia Christina, xi. Instrum. p. 107), one or
the other being most likely the son of Turgis, and the father of Henry
of Barnstaple."

Thanks,

Dec

[Chris Phillips]

Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants", p. 743, gives this Henry as the son of
William de Tracy and Roesia his wife, William and Roesia having granted
woodland at Lucerne and the mill of Champrépus to Mont-Saint-Michel in 1110,
attested by their children Turgis, Henry and Geve.

I can't see anything further about the family's origins, though it's
interesting that a Turgis occurs in Domesday Book as a tenant of Judhael of
Totnes, whose son Alfred was the predecessor of William de Tracy at
Barnstaple. Keats-Rohan says that William probably had the honour by grant
of King Stephen, though she leaves open the possibility that his wife was a
sister of Alfred.

Chris Phillips

[786azz...@gmail.com]

The history of Tracys goes far back. We are descendants of Tyre, son of Jocobeth, son of Prophet Noah. We were known as Thracians, which constituted many tribes. Tracys are from the Trausi Clan from the Thracians. we lived in the area of modern day Transylvania, until driven out by the Persian King Darius, we migrated north and there you can find our history recorded under the vikings, who never refered to themselves as vikings, but were in fact Thracians. Our history has many secrets. Our exploits are recorded in the tv series vikings on the history channel. it was the Tracys that saved Christianity in Europe. the knights templars were Tracys from France. I recommend to start researching from the Thracian point. note before being driven out of Transylvania, where none of us remained, a group from the Trausi led by two brothers set of and eventually settled in scottland /ireland and this is how the Tracy clan started in that region. yes we are all connected. in French tracy means Thracian. The Trausi were a leading tribe from the thracians and many other Thracian tribes assimilated with us, but not all thracians left when king darius invaded, as king darius had is eye specifically on the trausi tribe who were know for their beautiful women and very tall and warriors. The Amazons were actually Thracian Trausi women warriors. we all had in common dying of the hair red and keeping it long. and tattos were a mark of rank. we also had customs that differed from other thracians. i have tons of info if interested or have questions.

[P J Evans]

That's a fine lot of mythology and historical fiction you have there. In *this* group, or with anyone who is a serious genealogist, it doesn't fly at all.

[robertb...@gmail.com]

Although of the following 9 results on Scripta are from the 1100's period they may give you clues for further based on the places or Abbey's named in each charter, William Traci is mentioned in some, as is an Alain Traci. The name Tracy does not give any results only Traci.
Please peruse the results and click each charter as you go.

https://www.unicaen.fr/scripta/results.html?base=ead&champ1=fulltext&op1=AND&search_type=simple&query1=traci&ssearch-submit-npt.x=11&ssearch-submit-npt.y=15

RB

[Tom Sturgis]

My surname is Sturgis. Historically this should mean Son of Turgis.

[George Tsambourakis]

DNA test is a must. Frances Turges (b about 1530) was the wife of Vassilios Palaiologos, mother of Barnabas b 1556-1606;
STURGIS could also be incorrectly spelled, the names of another very big powerful family sounds similar, but the spelling is different.

[Peter Stewart]

On 13-Aug-23 6:54 AM, Tom Sturgis wrote:
> My surname is Sturgis. Historically this should mean Son of Turgis.

Why would adding an initial "s" historically mean "son of"? Is the
surname Wilson by the same token equivalent to Swil?

Peter Stewart

--
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[taf]

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 10:34:00 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 13-Aug-23 6:54 AM, Tom Sturgis wrote:
> > My surname is Sturgis. Historically this should mean Son of Turgis.
> Why would adding an initial "s" historically mean "son of"? Is the
> surname Wilson by the same token equivalent to Swil?

I am in no way endorsing this 'swil', but that is what Wikipedia reports, that it is a foreshortened rendering of Fitsturgis, i.e. Fitz Thorgils, citing a dead French webpage that, of course, says nothing of the sort, just being a map of surname occurrence in France about 1900, for 'Turgis' . Ancestry.com likewise claims the initial 's' represents 'son of', added to Thorgils, but gives no explanation for the etymology of this one-letter prefix - maybe a dyslexic Welshman or Portuguese was involved. They cite The Dictionary of American Family Names, 2nd ed., which is usually pretty good, but seems to have missed the mark here. I find this frontally-affixed 's' explanation going back at least to the 1930s in surname origin books (but Gbooks isn't letting me see enough text to know if it is represented to mean 'son of' in the earliest example). Curiously, for the clearly-related Styrges, Ancestry just punts, with a generic statement about surname origins that they use when their go-to source doesn't include the name.

The House of Names website, which usually hovers somewhere between mundane and worthless, may be closer to the mark with Sturgis, deriving it from a Mercian name Styrgar, representing Old English 'battle spear' (equally applicable to Styrges).

taf

[Peter Stewart]

Ideas are ten-a-penny, of course, but this one must have come out of the
bargain bin at a rubbish tip.

Imagine the delight of the Fitzalan or Fitzwilliam families on being
turned into Salans of Swilliams. Or Henry II on being bynamed Sempress.

[taf]

And let's not forget Fitz Simmons becoming Ssimons, like the absurd Ffrench families.

taf

[Ian Goddard]

taf wrote:
%><

>
> And let's not forget Fitz Simmons becoming Ssimons, like the absurd Ffrench families.
>

In the aftermath of the mangling of the numbering of the Peters and
Lords de Mauly which ended up with the allegation that Sir John Godard
married Maud Neville somebody noticed the chronological difficulty.
They solved it by inventing in a f[ils] de John Godard. The editor of a
volume of Yorkshire wills noticed an f Godard and expanded this to Francis.

[Peter Stewart]

Corrupting fitz Turgis into Fturgis would at least make slightly less
absurdity than turning it into Sturgis - shades of the demon Ftumpch in
the Young Ones, whose father was never named (as Tumpch or otherwise).

[Chris Pitt Lewis]

P H Reaney, The Origin of English Surnames (London 1967), pp.27-28 says,
on the subject of phonetic changes:

"There is a marked tendency in dialect to prefix an inorganic s to words
beginning with a consonant, as in scrumple, snaisty (nasty), squench and
scotchneal (cochineal). It is found also in place names as in Scaldhurst
(Ess) for earlier Caldhous, in the local pronunciation Skringells for
Corringales in the same county, in Sparkinson Spring in Dore, Parkinson
Spring 1821, from James Parkinson 1667 and in Spillisbiry alias
Pillisbiry for Pilsbury. The same tendency is found also in surnames. We
have Scripps for Cripps, Sturge and Sturgess for Turgoose, from ON
Þorgils "Thor's Hostage" and Spashett for Patchett, whilst Spearpoint is
probably for Pierrepoint which is found also as Pearpoint....".

It would be interesting to check a more recent source such as the Oxford
Dictionary of Family Names, to which I don't have access.

So, while the "s" does not signify "son of", Mr Sturgis seems to be
right to say that his surname derives from someone whose name was Turgis
or some similar version of Þorgils. Þ (Th) was pronounced T in Normandy
(Reaney (above) p.126)

--
Chris Pitt Lewis

[Enno Borgsteede]

Op 16-08-2023 om 10:21 schreef Chris Pitt Lewis:

>
> P H Reaney, The Origin of English Surnames (London 1967), pp.27-28 says,
> on the subject of phonetic changes:
>
> "There is a marked tendency in dialect to prefix an inorganic s to words
> beginning with a consonant, as in scrumple, snaisty (nasty), squench and
> scotchneal (cochineal). It is found also in place names as in Scaldhurst
> (Ess) for earlier Caldhous, in the local pronunciation Skringells for
> Corringales in the same county, in Sparkinson Spring in Dore, Parkinson
> Spring 1821, from James Parkinson 1667 and in Spillisbiry alias
> Pillisbiry for Pilsbury. The same tendency is found also in surnames. We
> have Scripps for Cripps, Sturge and Sturgess for Turgoose, from ON
> Þorgils "Thor's Hostage" and Spashett for Patchett, whilst Spearpoint is
> probably for Pierrepoint which is found also as Pearpoint....".
>
> It would be interesting to check a more recent source such as the Oxford
> Dictionary of Family Names, to which I don't have access.
>
> So, while the "s" does not signify "son of", Mr Sturgis seems to be
> right to say that his surname derives from someone whose name was Turgis
> or some similar version of Þorgils. Þ (Th) was pronounced T in Normandy
> (Reaney (above) p.126)
>

I recognize that here in place names like 's-Gravenhage, where the 's is
a short for "des", meaning "of".

You can see this too in 's-Hertogenbosch meaning the Dukes' Wood, where
the apostrophe after Dukes has transformed into 's- at the front.

I see this for surnames in my tree too, where a man registered as Maxwil
had children registered as Maxwils and Smaxwil.

This was in the 18th century, so it doesn't necessarily represent
earlier habits.

Enno

[taf]

On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 1:21:16 AM UTC-7, Chris Pitt Lewis wrote:

> It would be interesting to check a more recent source such as the Oxford
> Dictionary of Family Names, to which I don't have access.

I used to have access to much of it but Gbooks seems to have changed a setting and I can't see it anymore. Anyhow, I noticed when I could see it that ODFN shares a compiler and much identical content with The Dictionary of American Family Names, already mentioned as having the 'son of' version, so I suspect it will have the same.

taf

[taf]

On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 1:21:16 AM UTC-7, Chris Pitt Lewis wrote:

> So, while the "s" does not signify "son of", Mr Sturgis seems to be
> right to say that his surname derives from someone whose name was Turgis
> or some similar version of Þorgils. Þ (Th) was pronounced T in Normandy
> (Reaney (above) p.126)

I ran and 1881 distribution map for Sturgis. It had a lot lower frequency than I expected. Highest in Middlesex (i.e. London) with the next highest being in Northants, Wilts, and Kent, and the vast majority within, or in a county not too far outside, a triangle defined by those three counties.

[Peter Stewart]

Oxford Dictionary of Family Names in Britain and Ireland (2016), p. 2581:

"Sturgess

Variants: Sturges, Sturgis, Sturge
. Current frequencies: GB 2622, Ireland 21
. GB frequency 1881: 1636
. Main GB location 1881: Leics; also Derbys; Northants; Hants and Wilts
English: relationship name from the Old Scandinavian personal name
Þorgils, Thorgisl (see Turgoose), with prosthetic initial S-.
Early bearers: John Sturgys, 1353 in Feet of Fines (Cambs); Joan Sturge,
1379 in Colchester Court Rolls (Essex); Robertus Sturgeys, 1381 in Poll
Tax (Billesdon, Leics); Richard Sturges, 1481 in London Letter Books L.

Sturgis

. Current frequencies: GB 81, Ireland 0
. GB frequency 1881: 105
. Main GB location 1881: London; Wilts; Northants
English: see Sturgess."

The "prosthetic initial S-" may have an interesting origin - see
Aubrey's Brief Lives for Sir Walter Raleigh:

"He loved a wench well; and one time getting one of the Maids of Honour
up against a tree in a wood (it was his first lady) who seemed at first
boarding to be something fearful of her honour, and modest, she cried,

'Sweet Sir Walter, what do you me ask? Will you undo me? Nay, sweet Sir
Walter! Sweet Sir Walter! Sir Walter!'

At last, as the danger and the pleasure at the same time grew higher,
she cried in the ecstasy, 'Swisser Swatter, Swisser Swatter!'

She proved with child, and I doubt not but this hero took care of them
both, as also that the product was more than an ordinary mortal."

Probably not surnamed Swalter however.

[Peter Stewart]

On 17-Aug-23 7:14 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 16-Aug-23 11:48 PM, taf wrote:
>> On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 1:21:16 AM UTC-7, Chris Pitt Lewis
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It would be interesting to check a more recent source such as the Oxford
>>> Dictionary of Family Names, to which I don't have access.
>>
>> I used to have access to much of it but Gbooks seems to have changed a
>> setting and I can't see it anymore. Anyhow, I noticed when I could see
>> it that ODFN shares a compiler and much identical content with The
>> Dictionary of American Family Names, already mentioned as having the
>> 'son of' version, so I suspect it will have the same.
>
> Oxford Dictionary of Family Names in Britain and Ireland (2016), p. 2581:
>
> "Sturgess
>
> Variants: Sturges, Sturgis, Sturge
> . Current frequencies: GB 2622, Ireland 21
> . GB frequency 1881: 1636
> . Main GB location 1881: Leics; also Derbys; Northants; Hants and Wilts
> English: relationship name from the Old Scandinavian personal name
> Þorgils, Thorgisl (see Turgoose), with prosthetic initial S-.

The ODFN entry for Turgoose, p. 2748:

"Variants: Turgis
. Current frequencies: GB 271, Ireland 0
. GB frequency 1881: 110
. Main GB location 1881: WR Yorks, Lincs, and Notts
English: relationship name from the Middle English personal name Turgis
(Old Scandinavian Þorgils, Thorgisl). Compare Sturgess.
Early bearers: given names: Turgis, 1154–89 in Danelaw Documents
(Lincs); Thurgis filius Owani, 1221 in Assize Rolls (Warwicks);
Turgisius de Stokes Aubeny, 1285 in Patent Rolls.
surnames: Hugo filius Turgisi, 1086 in Domesday Book (Shrops); Henry
Turgis, 1210 in Pipe Rolls (Wilts); Adam Thurgis, 1279 in Hundred Rolls
(Beds); William Turgeis, 1313 in Patent Rolls (Kent); Willelmus Turgys,
1379 in Poll Tax (Up Waltham and Eartham, Sussex); Thomas Turgeys, 1381
in Poll Tax (Canterbury, Kent); Johannes Turgis, 1381 in Poll Tax
(Foxton, Leics); William Turges, 1432 in Feet of Fines (Bucks); John
Turgcos, 1444 in Feet of Fines (Notts); John Turgos, 1524 in Subsidy
Rolls (Suffolk); Alys Turges, 1553 in IGI (Horsham, Sussex); Erwin
Turgis, 1568 in IGI (Yapton, Sussex); William Turgosse, 1572 in IGI
(Upton, Lincs); Edw Turgoose, 1592 in IGI (Toft next Newton, Lincs)."

If my surname had been Sturgis I would be thankful it wasn't Sturgoose.
As it is, must I look for an original Tewart whose son first called
himself, prosthetically, Stewart?

[Peter Stewart]

Or the Fitzherberts aka Sherberts.

ODFN vol. 2 pp. 907-8 lists fforde and ffoulkes as well as ffrench,
noting "ff is simply an early orthographic form of capital F" and "This
form preserves a post-medieval spelling convention for representing an
initial capital."

During the Victorian medievalism craze there were people ffoolishly
calling themselves ffanshawe, ffeatherstone and so on.

[Peter Stewart]

On 17-Aug-23 9:32 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:

> During the Victorian medievalism craze there were people ffoolishly
> calling themselves ffanshawe, ffeatherstone and so on.

Including ffotheringhay, which they fflatulently pronounced "fingy".

[taf]

On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 4:41:13 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 17-Aug-23 9:32 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
>
> > During the Victorian medievalism craze there were people ffoolishly
> > calling themselves ffanshawe, ffeatherstone and so on.
> Including ffotheringhay, which they fflatulently pronounced "fingy".

And whyle we are at yt, those Smythes aren't foolynge anyone.