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Lee of Sussex
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J. Sardina
Sep 26, 2021, 11:06:36 AM9/26/21
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Hello,
The visitation of Sussex by Benoit seems to have come across a Lee family of that county, for which it gives a short pedigree. A published version of the two visitations can be consulted at various sites, including this one.
https://archive.org/details/visitationsofcou5354beno/page/n59/mode/2up
The arms given for this Lee family in this visitation are
Azure, a lion rampant-guardant argent.
The other arms are said to correspond to Wallys (or Waleys), Turke and Kendall.
The family starts with one William Lee who is shown married to Joyce, daughter and heiress of John Wallys of Glynd, with a reference to folio 34.
In reality, it appears that her name was Joan, and that she was one of four co-heiresses.
Another one was another Joan, who married Nicholas Morley.
A lot of information regarding these coheiress and particularly the Morley and Lee families can be found at the national archives in relation to this particular inheritance, which appears to have been contested for more than 100 years.
The chart gives no dates at all. William Lee and his wife are shown in the visitation are shown as parents of one John Lee of Fitchworth, married a daughter of Roger Lewknor.
I have a few questions about this line.
Is there a connection between these Lee and the Lee of Roden and others?
There is a another visitation which gives a Lee line that includes a Lee married to a woman whose surname appears to have been Padynton (or something similar).
From documents at the national archives, on Glynd in particular, it appears that Joan Waleys married Nicholas Morley, but that Robert Lee's wife was called Joan also, and that there were four coheiresses, which are shown as sisters.
They mention that Robert's wife was a sister of Morley's wife, and that another sister, Agnes, married a John Padynton second and John Burgh first.
Another sister, Beatrice, is shown as having married Reginald Cokayne and William Milreth.
It seems impossible that there would have been two sisters both named Joan. So, what the name or Robert Lee's wife?
The testament of John Padynton, made in 1452, has been published and can be viewed online at
https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/files/2933354/289219_vol3.pdf
It does mention some of his relatives and also some of his wife's.
Does anybody know more about the Lewknor family related to this Lee family by marriage? there is another entry in the Sussex visitation for Lewknor, but I can't find the Roger Lewknor shown as the father in law of the Lee.
Does anybody know the arms used by this Morley family that eventually inherited Glynde?
Thanks
J. Sardina
The visitation of Sussex by Benoit seems to have come across a Lee family of that county, for which it gives a short pedigree. A published version of the two visitations can be consulted at various sites, including this one.
https://archive.org/details/visitationsofcou5354beno/page/n59/mode/2up
The arms given for this Lee family in this visitation are
Azure, a lion rampant-guardant argent.
The other arms are said to correspond to Wallys (or Waleys), Turke and Kendall.
The family starts with one William Lee who is shown married to Joyce, daughter and heiress of John Wallys of Glynd, with a reference to folio 34.
In reality, it appears that her name was Joan, and that she was one of four co-heiresses.
Another one was another Joan, who married Nicholas Morley.
A lot of information regarding these coheiress and particularly the Morley and Lee families can be found at the national archives in relation to this particular inheritance, which appears to have been contested for more than 100 years.
The chart gives no dates at all. William Lee and his wife are shown in the visitation are shown as parents of one John Lee of Fitchworth, married a daughter of Roger Lewknor.
I have a few questions about this line.
Is there a connection between these Lee and the Lee of Roden and others?
There is a another visitation which gives a Lee line that includes a Lee married to a woman whose surname appears to have been Padynton (or something similar).
From documents at the national archives, on Glynd in particular, it appears that Joan Waleys married Nicholas Morley, but that Robert Lee's wife was called Joan also, and that there were four coheiresses, which are shown as sisters.
They mention that Robert's wife was a sister of Morley's wife, and that another sister, Agnes, married a John Padynton second and John Burgh first.
Another sister, Beatrice, is shown as having married Reginald Cokayne and William Milreth.
It seems impossible that there would have been two sisters both named Joan. So, what the name or Robert Lee's wife?
The testament of John Padynton, made in 1452, has been published and can be viewed online at
https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/files/2933354/289219_vol3.pdf
It does mention some of his relatives and also some of his wife's.
Does anybody know more about the Lewknor family related to this Lee family by marriage? there is another entry in the Sussex visitation for Lewknor, but I can't find the Roger Lewknor shown as the father in law of the Lee.
Does anybody know the arms used by this Morley family that eventually inherited Glynde?
Thanks
J. Sardina
Will Johnson
Sep 28, 2021, 2:17:47 PM9/28/21
to
taf
Sep 28, 2021, 3:12:17 PM9/28/21
to
On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 11:17:47 AM UTC-7, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, September 26, 2021 at 8:06:36 AM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> > The visitation of Sussex by Benoit seems to have come across a Lee family of that county, for which it gives a short pedigree. A published version of the two visitations can be consulted at various sites, including this one.
> > https://archive.org/details/visitationsofcou5354beno/page/n59/mode/2up
> >
> > The arms given for this Lee family in this visitation are
> > Azure, a lion rampant-guardant argent.
> > The other arms are said to correspond to Wallys (or Waleys), Turke and Kendall.
> >
> > The family starts with one William Lee who is shown married to Joyce, daughter and heiress of John Wallys of Glynd, with a reference to folio 34.
> >
> > In reality, it appears that her name was Joan, and that she was one of four co-heiresses.
> >
> > Another one was another Joan, who married Nicholas Morley.
> >
> > A lot of information regarding these coheiress and particularly the Morley and Lee families can be found at the national archives in relation to this particular inheritance, which appears to have been contested for more than 100 years.
> >
> > The chart gives no dates at all. William Lee and his wife are shown in the visitation are shown as parents of one John Lee of Fitchworth, married a daughter of Roger Lewknor.
> >
> > I have a few questions about this line.
> > Is there a connection between these Lee and the Lee of Roden and others?
> >
> > There is a another visitation which gives a Lee line that includes a Lee married to a woman whose surname appears to have been Padynton (or something similar).
> >
> > From documents at the national archives, on Glynd in particular, it appears that Joan Waleys married Nicholas Morley, but that Robert Lee's wife was called Joan also, and that there were four coheiresses, which are shown as sisters.
> >
> > They mention that Robert's wife was a sister of Morley's wife, and that another sister, Agnes, married a John Padynton second and John Burgh first.
> >
> > Another sister, Beatrice, is shown as having married Reginald Cokayne and William Milreth.
> > It seems impossible that there would have been two sisters both named Joan. So, what the name or Robert Lee's wife?
> On Sunday, September 26, 2021 at 8:06:36 AM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> > The visitation of Sussex by Benoit seems to have come across a Lee family of that county, for which it gives a short pedigree. A published version of the two visitations can be consulted at various sites, including this one.
> > https://archive.org/details/visitationsofcou5354beno/page/n59/mode/2up
> >
> > The arms given for this Lee family in this visitation are
> > Azure, a lion rampant-guardant argent.
> > The other arms are said to correspond to Wallys (or Waleys), Turke and Kendall.
> >
> > The family starts with one William Lee who is shown married to Joyce, daughter and heiress of John Wallys of Glynd, with a reference to folio 34.
> >
> > In reality, it appears that her name was Joan, and that she was one of four co-heiresses.
> >
> > Another one was another Joan, who married Nicholas Morley.
> >
> > A lot of information regarding these coheiress and particularly the Morley and Lee families can be found at the national archives in relation to this particular inheritance, which appears to have been contested for more than 100 years.
> >
> > The chart gives no dates at all. William Lee and his wife are shown in the visitation are shown as parents of one John Lee of Fitchworth, married a daughter of Roger Lewknor.
> >
> > I have a few questions about this line.
> > Is there a connection between these Lee and the Lee of Roden and others?
> >
> > There is a another visitation which gives a Lee line that includes a Lee married to a woman whose surname appears to have been Padynton (or something similar).
> >
> > From documents at the national archives, on Glynd in particular, it appears that Joan Waleys married Nicholas Morley, but that Robert Lee's wife was called Joan also, and that there were four coheiresses, which are shown as sisters.
> >
> > They mention that Robert's wife was a sister of Morley's wife, and that another sister, Agnes, married a John Padynton second and John Burgh first.
> >
> > Another sister, Beatrice, is shown as having married Reginald Cokayne and William Milreth.
> > It seems impossible that there would have been two sisters both named Joan. So, what the name or Robert Lee's wife?
> Could you cite the web link that gives the names of the four co-heiresses?
VCH Herts:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Kgk5AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA196
Here is a web site naming the four coheiresses, apparently derived from VCH Herts:
https://bedsarchives.bedford.gov.uk/CommunityHistories/Pepperstock/PepsallManor.aspx
It gives a descent of Pepsall manor consistent with the pedigree's heraldry - Robert Kendale fl 1331, Edward Kendale, two sons dsp, their sister Beatrice married Robert Turk, daughter Joan married John Waleys, son John Waleys d. 1422, a minor, heirs sisters Beatrice m. Reginald Cockayn, Joan m. Robert Leventhorp, Agnes and Joan, then unmarried. Agnes later m. John Bury/Burgh and John Padyngton before she died 1453.
VCH Beds treats Beatrice Waleys as sole heiress of Woodcroft
https://books.google.com/books?id=L63MDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA354
But it was actually transferred by fine (in the form of a typical marriage settlement), described in Joan's ipm:
http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/view/inquisition/22-515/
also relevant
Ipm of John Waleys (the elder):
http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/view/inquisition/21-020/
Ipm of Robert Turk
http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/view/inquisition/18-400/401
VCH Herts hedges on the second marriage of Agnes (attributing it to an author, rather than stating it as fact like the rest of the accout), but it is proved here:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7440407
C 1/18/50
Padyngton v Burgoyne.
Plaintiffs John Padyngton, esq., and Agnes his wife, late the wife of John Burgh, esq., and Joan daughter of the said John Burgh.
1452-1454
taf
J. Sardina
Sep 28, 2021, 8:30:11 PM9/28/21
to
There are quite a few documents regarding these properties and families.
For example,
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/b0994362-3666-4c7c-8796-9aa50808c54f
Copy of Inquisition as in MS. GLY/16; copy of proceedings in Chancery, 4 Nov. 1440, whereby John Cokayn' son of Beatrice widow of William Milreth, John Padyngton and wife Agnes widow of John Burgh), Robert Lee and wife Joan, and Nicholas Morley and wife Joan deny the truth of the Inquisition; recites MSS. 3 and 5 in support of their case and seek restitution of the manors.
Since I can't see the originals, I am guessing there is a mistake in the summary regarding Joan Lee and Joan Morley.
J. Sardina
J. Sardina
Sep 28, 2021, 8:46:57 PM9/28/21
to
On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 3:12:17 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
Very good there is quite a bit of information about these people.
I am trying to find out if by any chance these Lees were originally from Shropshire or Lancashire.
Apparently, these Morleys of Sussex came from Lancashire, specifically from Clitheroe, according to the biography of Thomas Morley:
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/morley-thomas-1513-59
J. Sardina
taf
Sep 28, 2021, 9:54:11 PM9/28/21
to
On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 5:30:11 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> Copy of Inquisition as in MS. GLY/16; copy of proceedings in Chancery, 4 Nov. 1440,
> whereby John Cokayn' son of Beatrice widow of William Milreth, John Padyngton
> and wife Agnes widow of John Burgh), Robert Lee and wife Joan, and Nicholas
> Morley and wife Joan deny the truth of the Inquisition; recites MSS. 3 and 5 in
> support of their case and seek restitution of the manors.
>
> Since I can't see the originals, I am guessing there is a mistake in the summary
> regarding Joan Lee and Joan Morley.
Not clear to me what you think is a mistake.
> Copy of Inquisition as in MS. GLY/16; copy of proceedings in Chancery, 4 Nov. 1440,
> whereby John Cokayn' son of Beatrice widow of William Milreth, John Padyngton
> and wife Agnes widow of John Burgh), Robert Lee and wife Joan, and Nicholas
> Morley and wife Joan deny the truth of the Inquisition; recites MSS. 3 and 5 in
> support of their case and seek restitution of the manors.
>
> Since I can't see the originals, I am guessing there is a mistake in the summary
> regarding Joan Lee and Joan Morley.
taf
J. Sardina
Sep 29, 2021, 6:53:19 AM9/29/21
to
The name of William's wife. If it was Joan, then she had another sister also called Joan, who married Nicholas Morley.
The other two sisters seem clear and married twice.
taf
Sep 29, 2021, 11:41:15 AM9/29/21
to
On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 3:53:19 AM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 9:54:11 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 5:30:11 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
>
> > > Since I can't see the originals, I am guessing there is a mistake in the summary
> > > regarding Joan Lee and Joan Morley.
> > Not clear to me what you think is a mistake.
>
> On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 9:54:11 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 5:30:11 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
>
> > > Since I can't see the originals, I am guessing there is a mistake in the summary
> > > regarding Joan Lee and Joan Morley.
> > Not clear to me what you think is a mistake.
>
> The name of William's wife. If it was Joan, then she had another sister also called
> Joan, who married Nicholas Morley.
> The other two sisters seem clear and married twice.
There indeed were two Joans. The inquisition post mortem of Joan, widow of John Waleys names the daughters as Beatrice Cokayne(26+), Joan Levensthorp (21+), Agnes (14+) and Joan (10+), and I count nine different documents dealing with the sisters that name the wives of Lee and Morley both as Joan. It is no mistake, just a quirk of naming that is occasionally seen. It does raise the question of which Joan was which - one was born about 1403 and married first to Robert Levensthorp, the other was born about 1414. It would seem to have been Joan Lee who was the elder, as there are three separate documents in the East Sussex RO Glynde Place Archive collection that name them in the order, Beatrice, Joan Lee, Agnes, Joan Morley, seemingly matching the birth order given in the ipm, and the only other document naming all four co-parceners has John Cokayne (Beatrice's heir), Agnes, Joan Lee, Joan Morley, again naming Lee before Morley.
> Joan, who married Nicholas Morley.
> The other two sisters seem clear and married twice.
taf
J. Sardina
Sep 29, 2021, 5:08:50 PM9/29/21
to
These might not be the Lee and Morley families that I am trying to track down, but just in case I thought I would check.
I am not certain if they happen to have traceable descendants at this time, but it may be useful for other readers of the group.
J. Sardina
Will Johnson
Sep 29, 2021, 7:22:44 PM9/29/21
to
For example
Charles /Montagu/ of Papplewick, co Nott; esq; MP Westminster 1722 d Jun 1759
is one such
Will Johnson
Sep 29, 2021, 7:26:42 PM9/29/21
to
On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 4:22:44 PM UTC-7, Will Johnson wrote:
> Joan the second who m Nicholas Morley has descendants at least into the 18th century
> For example
> Charles /Montagu/ of Papplewick, co Nott; esq; MP Westminster 1722 d Jun 1759
> is one such
He also happens to be a direct descendant of Richard Cecil, which is why he is in my database, and has several ascents to Edward III for those who record that
> Joan the second who m Nicholas Morley has descendants at least into the 18th century
> For example
> Charles /Montagu/ of Papplewick, co Nott; esq; MP Westminster 1722 d Jun 1759
> is one such
Will Johnson
Sep 29, 2021, 7:28:54 PM9/29/21
to
https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00319281&tree=LEO
The parents of Margaret Morley seen here (bottom line) were
Herbert /Morley/ of Glynde, co Sussex; esq; Ho ob 1611
by
Anne /Lennard/ bap 1 Jan 1572 Chevening. co Kent
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