Re: Alexander II of Scots "an ignored ancestor ? "

261 views
Skip to first unread message

tigge...@yahoo.com

unread,
Jan 17, 2011, 7:11:49 PM1/17/11
to Leo, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
If he were my ancestor, I'd definitely ignore him.

Yours,
Villandra Thorsdottir
Austin, Texas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo" <can...@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2011 3:42 PM
Subject: Alexander II of Scots "an ignored ancestor ? "


>I think I am not the only one who bypassed Alexander II, king of Scots
>(1198-1249) simply because his descendants died out in 1290 with his great
>grand child Margaret of Norway.
>
> But not so. Thanks to the work of John Ravilious, Andrew MacEwen and
> Douglas Richardson a totally different picture has emerged. The improved
> genealogy of Alexander II's descendants is now in my own system and will
> be shown of Genealogics with the next update.
>
> Alexander II, king of Scots (first the bad news) is an ancestor of the
> following Regicides:
> John Alured - John Blakiston - Sir John Bourchier - Sir John Danvers -
> George Fleetwood - Thomas Grey, lord Grey of Groby - Sir Richard Ingoldsby
>
> Alexander II, king of Scots is an ancestor of the following USA Presidents
> Thomas Jefferson - James Madison - Zachary Taylor - Stephen Grover
> Cleveland - William Howard Taft - Calvin Coolidge - Franklin Delano
> Roosevelt - George Herbert Bush and George Walker Bush
>
> Alexander II, king of Scots is an ancestor of the following Gateway
> Ancestors :
> Robert Abell III - John Alston - Alicia Arnold - Hon. Anne Arundell -
> William Asfordby - Anne Batt - Jane Batt - Anne Baynton - Sir Marmaduke
> Beckwith 3rd Bt - Richard Bellingham - Norborne Berkeley baron Botetourt -
> Sir William Berkeley - William Bladen - George Blakiston - Nathaniel
> Blakiston - Nehemiah Blakiston - Elizabeth Bosvile - Thomas Bradley - Col.
> Giles Brent - Margaret Brent - Charles Calvert lord Baltimore - Kenelm
> Cheseldyne - Grace Chetwode - Capt Jeremy Clarke - St.Leger Codd - John
> Coke - Eyre Coote Croker - Jane Deighton - Katherine Deighton - Robert
> Deering - Col. Edward Digges - Francis Eyre - Thomas 6th Lord Fairfax -
> William Fairfax - William Farrar - Susan Felton - Henrietta Fielding -
> John Fisher - Capt Henry Fleete - Rev. Edward Foliot - Elizabeth
> Hagburne - Catherine Haselrige - Edward Hutchinson - Edward Hyde - Mary
> Jephson - John Jones - Mary Launce - Thomas Lechmere - Col Thomas Ligon -
> Catherine Maria Long - Anne Mansfield - Elizabeth Mansfield !
> - John Mansfield - Anne Marbury - Catherine Marbury - Anne Mauleverer -
> Hon. Robert Monckton - Lord Charles Greville Montagu - John Nelson -
> Margaret Nelson - Capt. Philip Nelson - Thomas Nelson - Katherine
> Neville - Hester Newton - Henry Norwood - Edward Nott - Samuel Ogle - Sir
> Danvers Osborn 3rd Bt - Rev. John Oxenbridge - Philadelphia Pelham - Hon.
> George Percy - Henry Randolph - Col. William Randolph - Charles Rodes -
> Thomas Rudyard - Major Richard Saltonstall - Rev. William Skepper - Diana
> Skipwith - Sir Grey Skipwith - Maria Joanna Somerset - Constant
> Southworth - Katherine St. Leger - John Stockman - William 'the Immigrant'
> Strother - Richard Tilghman - William Tryon - Sir Henry Vane - Leighton
> Wilson - Thomas Wingfield - Edward Wyatt - Sir Francis Wyatt - Rev. Hawte
> Wyatt - Amt Wyllys
>
> Alexander II is an ancestor of the following actors
> Fat Wray - Jake Gyllenhaal - Maggie Gyllenhaal - Rupert Everett - Rachel
> Ward - Alexander Armstrong - Timothy Bentinck - Hugh Grant - Marlon
> Brando - Gloria Grahame - Billie Burke - Randolph Scott
>
> Alexander II is an ancestor of many of the British Royals, including Queen
> Elizabeth II - Kate Middleton - Lady Diana Spencer - Sarah Ferguson - Mark
> Phillips - Camilla Shand
>
>
> I have made a file of 11 generations (72 pages) with his descendants,
> reaching the 16th century, no doubt in need of additions and corrections,
> but if anyone is interested I will gladly send it.
>
> With best wishes
> Leo van de Pas
> Canberra, Australia
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Leo

unread,
Jan 17, 2011, 7:22:39 PM1/17/11
to tigge...@yahoo.com, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
I have no biographical details about him. What makes you wanting to ignore
him?
Leo

John Watson

unread,
Jan 17, 2011, 7:58:22 PM1/17/11
to
> >> GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the

> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Leo,
You could always look in Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_II_of_Scotland

Regards,

John

pj.evans

unread,
Jan 17, 2011, 10:18:02 PM1/17/11
to

Well, we don't get to choose our ancestors. unfortunately. (I'd like
to lose Edward I.)

Monica Kanellis

unread,
Jan 18, 2011, 11:31:21 AM1/18/11
to pj.evans, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I've always had a fondness for the "bad boy" ancestors. The ones with
nicknames like scourge, parricide, devil, etc. are particular favourites.
And they often come to interesting (if gruesome) ends.

MK

> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the

Kevin Bradford

unread,
Jan 18, 2011, 11:55:39 AM1/18/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com

Moralizing about one's ancestors from several hundred years ago is a pointless exercise.

>From another perspective, perhaps our ancestors wouldn't be particularly fond of some of their descendants...

KB

> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 11:31:21 -0500


> Subject: Re: Alexander II of Scots "an ignored ancestor ? "

> From: monica....@gmail.com
> To: pj.eva...@usa.net
> CC: gen-me...@rootsweb.com


>
> I've always had a fondness for the "bad boy" ancestors. The ones with
> nicknames like scourge, parricide, devil, etc. are particular favourites.
> And they often come to interesting (if gruesome) ends.
>
> MK
>
> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 10:18 PM, pj.evans <pj.eva...@usa.net> wrote:
>

> > GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the


> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message
> >
>

> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ronald Di Iorio

unread,
Jan 19, 2011, 4:03:47 PM1/19/11
to GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, Leo

Correct me if I am wrong, but the only way that Alexander II leaves all these descendants is through Anne Durward, wife of William de Ferrers, who was a Durward and not a Despenser.

Ron

>
> ----- Original Message -----

Doug McDonald

unread,
Jan 19, 2011, 4:29:24 PM1/19/11
to
On 1/18/2011 10:31 AM, Monica Kanellis wrote:
> I've always had a fondness for the "bad boy" ancestors. The ones with
> nicknames like scourge, parricide, devil, etc. are particular favourites.
> And they often come to interesting (if gruesome) ends.
>


I prefer "Skullcleaver".

Doug McDonald

John P. Ravilious

unread,
Jan 19, 2011, 5:10:37 PM1/19/11
to
> > Marbury -� Anne Mauleverer -
> > >> GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com

> > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
> > -------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com

> > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the
> > subject and the body of the message- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


-------------------

Dear Ron,

The descendants indicated are those whose ancestry includes Anne,
daughter of Alan Durward and his wife Margery of Scotland, by her 2nd
husband Sir William de Ferrers of Groby (d. bef 20 Dec 1287/8). The
possibility exists that there are descents from her 1st marriage to
Colban, Earl of Fife (stay tuned).

Matthew Hammond argued that the 3rd daughter of Alan Durward can
be identified, if not by name:

' For the third daughter, inheritance patterns suggest that she
probably married John Bisset the younger. Bisset's daughter Cecilia
married William de Fenton, lord of Baikie, Angus. Between 1301 and
1316 William gave Auchindory in the tenement of Reedie, Angus to
Coupar Abbey. As Alan Durward was a previous owner of Reedie, it may
be that one of his daughters married John Bisset, and that therefore
the estate passed on to William de Fenton through his marriage to
Bisset's daughter (Alan's granddaughter) Cecilia. ' [1]

If Hammond is proved correct, the Bisset descendants of Alan
Durward and of Alexander II of Scots (including Fenton, the Sinclairs
of Orkney, Fraser of Lovat, etc.) are legion.

Cheers,

John

Notes

[1] Matthew H. Hammond, Hostiarii Regis Scotie: the Durward family in
the thirteenth century, in Steve Boardman and Alasdair Ross, eds., The
Exercise of Power in Medieval Scotland, c. 1200-1500, p. 136. Hammond
cites C. A. Chrs. nos. 71 and 99; C. A. Rent., no. 88; RRS, v, no.
103; and separately concerning the Bisset inheritance, Beauly Chrs.,
54.

Merilyn Pedrick

unread,
Jan 19, 2011, 6:30:06 PM1/19/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com, Doug McDonald
...... And dare I say it - there's always Eystein "fart"

Merilyn Pedrick

-------Original Message-------

From: Doug McDonald

Date: 20/01/2011 8:00:13 AM

To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com

Subject: Re: Alexander II of Scots "an ignored ancestor ? "

On 1/18/2011 10:31 AM, Monica Kanellis wrote:

> I've always had a fondness for the "bad boy" ancestors. The ones with

> nicknames like scourge, parricide, devil, etc. Are particular favourites.

> And they often come to interesting (if gruesome) ends.

>

I prefer "Skullcleaver".

Doug McDonald

-------------------------------

To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

.


M Sjostrom

unread,
Jan 19, 2011, 7:35:05 PM1/19/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Ravilious is indicating that possibly (and even to some likelihood)
Marjorie, countess of Meneteadhaich, wife of count Ailean, mormaer of
Meneteadhaich
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00177655&tree=LEO
were daughter of count Colban, mormaer of Fibh, and presumably by his wife
Anne inghen Ailin, herself maternal granddaughter in illegitimate line of
the king
In that case, the countess Marjorie must have been born in c1270 at latest

Countess Marjorie's and mormaer Ailean's granddaughter, countess Mairi
inghen Ailin, heiress of Meneteadhaich (born sometime in the 1310s; d bef
1360), has a legion of progeny by her Graem [grahame] husband

The best (but not totally unequivocal) evidence of countess Marjorie's link
to countess Anne inghen Ailin is that Anne's attested grandson, count
Donnchad mac Donnchaidh, mormaer of Fibh, in 1315 recognized his close
cousin Ailean a Meneteadhaich as his residual heir to succeed to mormaership
of Fiobha
http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00308673&tree=LEO

M Sjostrom

unread,
Jan 19, 2011, 10:27:46 PM1/19/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
".....John de Grey's wife was actually Maud de Verdun."
wrote "Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah"

----------------------------

impression from that is as if Richardson is again up his old tricks.

While it is clear that "Anne de Ferrers" is very suspicious,

Richardson drives through trying to imply that there was not other wife of
that John de Grey than merely Maud de Verdon.

This omits the argumentation in favor of John de Grey having had an earlier
wife. A thing seemingly necessitated to make sense of chronology in his
fuller family.

Monica Kanellis

unread,
Jan 20, 2011, 9:38:48 AM1/20/11
to Ronald Di Iorio, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Some sources*, have Ermengarde, wife of William de Soules as a
Durward. Their son, Nicholas was one of the contenders. Lots of
descendants on the Soules side, if that's the case (Lovel, Seymour,
Zouche, Carew, Hungerford, Courtenay, etc.).The Edinburgh History of
Scotland does not mention names but does note that he was survived by
3 daughters.

The Dictionary of National Biography, however, says that Nicholas'
claim was through Ermengarde who was the younger sister of Margery,
not her daughter.

these are prob.not the best, just the first ones that came up
*Scotland's historic heraldry
*A contribution to the history, biography and genealogy of the
families named Sole, Solly, Soule, Sowle, Soulis)

mk

>> Marbury -  Anne Mauleverer -

John P. Ravilious

unread,
Jan 20, 2011, 10:12:25 AM1/20/11
to
On Jan 20, 9:38 am, Monica Kanellis <monica.kanel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Some sources*, have Ermengarde, wife of William de Soules as a
> Durward. Their son, Nicholas was one of the contenders.  Lots of
> descendants on the Soules side, if that's the case (Lovel, Seymour,
> Zouche, Carew, Hungerford, Courtenay, etc.).The Edinburgh History of
> Scotland does not mention names but does note that he was survived by
> 3 daughters.
>
> The Dictionary of National Biography, however, says that Nicholas'
> claim was through Ermengarde who was the younger sister of Margery,
> not her daughter.
>
> these are prob.not the best, just the first ones that came up
> *Scotland's historic heraldry
> *A contribution to the history, biography and genealogy of the
> families named Sole, Solly, Soule, Sowle, Soulis)
>
> mk
>
> >> >> GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com

> >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
> >> -------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com

> >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the
> >> subject and the body of the message
>
> > -------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

------------------

Dear Monica,

Nicholas de Soules was the son of William de Soules and his wife
Ermengard(e) Durward, the elder daughter of Alan Durward and Margery
(illeg. daughter of Alexander II, King of Scots). Nicholas was a
competitor for the Scots throne in 1291/2, until the award was made to
John de Baliol. There is an active conjecture that Nicholas had a
sister Ermengarde who married, and may have descendants (research is
continuing). Nicholas did have issue, including William who was
involved in (actually the focus of) the conspiracy against King Robert
I in 1320.

~ Margery did have a sister Ermengarde, who was evidently also
illegitimate. She has apparently been confused by someone with her
niece Ermengarde Durward. The de Soules claim to the throne was based
on Ermengarde Durward having been the eldest daughter of Margery of
Scotland: if Anne had been the eldest sister, you can bet the senior
claimant (in this case, the young Duncan, Earl of Fife) would have
been put forward as the claimant based on this descent as opposed to
Nicholas de Soules.

Sir John de Soules, onetime Guardian of Scotland was (orabile
dictu!) a brother of William de Soules, and brother-in-law (not son)
of Ermengarde Durward. The Lovel, Courtenay, Dinham and other
descendants of Sir John de Soules do not share in the Durward
descent. See for further information Richard Borthwick's post from
1999 [1], and Complete Peerage. Sir John's wife was allegedly Hawise,
a daughter of Alexander the Stewart - an interesting ascent
nonetheless.

Cheers,

John


-----------------------------------


Notes

[1] Richard Borthwick, <MARJORIE NATURAL DAUG OF ALEXANDER11 OF
SCOTLAND>, SGM, 8 Nov 1999

" The Soulis family history is discussed in an article by Thomas
M'Michael
entitled "The Feudal Family of de Soulis" Article 16 in Transactions
of the
Dumfriesshire & Galloway Natural History & Antiquarian Society, XXVI
(1947/48) 3rd Series, pp.163-193. There are some puzzles in this
account
over the marriage(s) of Sir John Soulis. I have extracted the pedigree
as
follows:

_____________________________ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
RANDOLPH (I) William Juliana oo NN
d.<1170 | |
pincerna regis | |
________________|_____________ |
RANDOLPH (II) Richard William de Haya
d.1208 pincerna regis

FULCO d.<1243 (? <1223)
pincerna regis
|
|
NICHOLAS (I) d.1264 at Rouen, p.r.
oo Annora dau./coheir John de Normanville
___________________________________|
_____________________________________
Sir WILLIAM (I) p.r. Sir John (I) Sir Thomas d.
1300/04
d.< Nov 1293 oo d.<1311;[oo1 Hawise oo Alicia dau./
heir
Ermengarde dau./heir sister of Sir James John de Mulcastre
&
Alan Durward by Margery FitzAlan Steward of niece/heir
Benedict de
natural dau. of k. Scotland] oo?2 Mulcastre lord
of
Alexander II Margaret wid. of Hugh Cockermouth
| de Peresby & dau./heir
| Merleswain lord of
| Ardross & Innergelly in
| Fife (she survived her
| 2nd husband)
| |
NICHOLAS (II) d.1296 [by 1] Muriella oo Richard
oo Margaret dau. lord Lovel
Alexander Comyn earl
of Buchan
____|____________________________________________
WILLIAM (II) d.1320/21 Sir John (II) d.1318


CP VIII:206 indicates the mother of Muriel was Hawise sister of James
Steward of Scotland. M'Michael indicates only one marriage (that to
Margaret dau. of Merleswain). Richard Lovel was probably born before
May
1291 (his father Hugh died before that date and Richard was a minor).
Sir
John (I) was his first guardian. Sir John's marriage to Margaret
probably
took place about 1292/93. My guess is that Hawise was Sir John's first
wife.


The capitalised names indicate succession. The royal butlership
(pincerna
regis) became hereditary in the family with Fulco (who was certainly
dead
by 1243 and may have died before 1223). The relationship between Fulco
and
his predecessor, Randolph (II) is not known.


William (II) was the Arbroath Declaration man.


I hope this is of some help and interest. "

Monica Kanellis

unread,
Jan 20, 2011, 7:01:49 PM1/20/11
to John P. Ravilious, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Thanks, John,

This is very helpful; I had John father of Muriel Lovel in the wrong place.

On a quick flip through Ann's descendants, I see they include Princess
Diana, Winston Churchill, Algernon Swinburne, Alice Liddell (of Alice
in Wonderland), Alfred Tennyson, Percy Bysshe Shelley, Robert Walpole,
Sir Philip Sydney, Charles Dodgson (Lewis Carroll), Elizabeth
Bowes-Lyon, William Beckford, Thomas Wharton, George Herbert, and
Fletcher Christian.

Were there any through the Earl of Fife?

best,

Monica

> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>

John P. Ravilious

unread,
Jan 20, 2011, 8:28:58 PM1/20/11
to
On Jan 20, 7:01 pm, Monica Kanellis <monica.kanel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks, John,
>
> This is very helpful; I had John father of Muriel Lovel in the wrong place.
>
> On a quick flip through Ann's descendants, I see they include Princess
> Diana, Winston Churchill, Algernon Swinburne, Alice Liddell (of Alice
> in Wonderland), Alfred Tennyson, Percy Bysshe Shelley, Robert Walpole,
> Sir Philip Sydney, Charles Dodgson (Lewis Carroll), Elizabeth
> Bowes-Lyon, William Beckford, Thomas Wharton, George Herbert, and
> Fletcher Christian.
>
> Were there any through the Earl of Fife?
>
> best,
>
> Monica
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »

--------------------

Dear Monica,

There are two probable avenues of descent from Colban, Earl of
Fife by his wife Anne Durward:

1. Descendants of their great-granddaughter Isabella, Countess of
Fife, by her marriages to (1) Sir William de Felton and (3) Sir
William Ramsay [possibly traced by other researchers].

2. As alluded to by 'M' earlier, there was a marriage of Alan,
Earl of Menteith to a lady named Margery [named in a licence granted
by King Edward II at Westminster, 13 Mar 1308/09 - CPR 2 Edw II, mem.
10, p. 108]. She was evidently either a half-sister, or a daughter,
of Colban - if the latter, she would have been his daughter by Anne
Durward.

I tend to favor the theory that Margery was a daughter of Earl
Colban and Anne Durward. An item that has raised several eyebrows
over the years was a licence granted to William de Ferrers of Groby
(son of Anne Durward) at Leicester on 19 Jan 1316/17:

' Licence for William de Ferariis to enfeoff Mordac de Meneteth
of his manor of Groby, co. Leicester, and of the advowsons of the
churches of the manor, held in chief: and for the latter to re-grant
the same to him and Elena his wife and the heirs of their bodies, with
remainder, failing such issue, to the said Mordac and his heirs. By
p.s.' [1]

Many theories have been advanced to explain the connection of
Murdoch of Menteith to William de Ferrers: the identification of Anne
Durward as William's mother, taken with Margery (wife of Alan of
Menteith) as a daughter of Earl Colban, appears to solve this.
Murdoch was the brother-in-law of the widowed Countess Margery of
Menteith (nee Margery of Fife), who was the sister (actually half-
sister by this solution) of Wiliiam de Ferrers.

1) Colban = Anne = 2) Sir William
E of Fife I Durward I de Ferrers
I I_____________
________I____ ____________ I
I I I I I
Duncan Margery = Alan 'I' Murdoch Sir William
E of I E of de Ferrers
Fife I Menteith d. Mar 1324/5
d. 1289 V d. bef 13 = Elena
Mar 1308/9


Alan 'I' of Menteith and his wife Margery were ancestors of
Margaret Graham, suo jure Countess of Menteith and first wife of
Robert, Duke of Albany (d. 2 Sept 1420). Their descendants include
the Moubrays of Barnbougle (after 1372), the Stewarts of Albany (later
Avondale, and Castle Stuart), the Mures of Rowallan (after 1474) and
many more besides.

Cheers,

John

Notes

[1] Cal. Patent Rolls 10 Edw II, Part II, p. 613, mem. 30.

Alex Maxwell Findlater

unread,
Jan 21, 2011, 2:29:29 AM1/21/11
to
The only problem with this, which I think needs to be addressed, is
that the grant of Groby was to Murdac and Elena jointly, with
remainder to their heir of him and HER, further remainder to his right
heirs. Normally in England, and Scotland at this period, it was very
unusual for a wife to be included in a grant unless she was the
heiress, while a remainder to the husband's heirs if she had none was
not common, but I think did happen.

My understanding is that Groby was part of the heredity which Helen d
Alan of Galloway carried to Roger de Quincy earl of Winchester and
which her daughter and coheiress Margaret carried to William Ferrers
earl of Derby, but which they passed on to their younger son William,
who became of Groby. The first William of Groby, this son had Groby
i26 May 1280, for a fine of 40 marks, in which his mother had
enfeoffed him (Fine Roll 8 Ewd Im 10; Close Roll 9 Ewd I m 8; Scuage
Roll no 9, m 3, as in CP V p341). This indicates that Groby came
through Margaret ed&c of Roger de Quincy Earl of Winchester.

These two points are of course mutually contradictory, but I throw
them in for good measure. I wonder whether the relationship which
they highlight is the parentage of his unidentified wife Elena - might
she have been connected to the Menteiths?

M Sjostrom

unread,
Jan 21, 2011, 6:14:48 AM1/21/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
1) is there some convincing reason why count Muireadhach, mormaer of
Meneteadhaich (d 1332 or so) must have been brother specifically of Marjorie
[of Fibh]'s husband Ailean, and not brother of Marjorie's son mormaer Ailean
the younger
?
(which latter alternative would make mormaer Muireadhach presumably as
younger son of Marjorie herself, and thusly Groby's nephew as his
half-sister's son if the reconstruction holds)

I would have thought that chronologically, Muireadhach getting slain in his
thirties or so, would be more consistent with the cultural context, than him
at that being as old as presumably would a great-uncle be.

2) countess Iseabail inghen Donnchaidh, heiress of Fibh, was married
several times - but the passage of events regarding her renunciation and
considerations about "legitimate" succession to her mormaership, do not in
my view support that she would have had any direct heirs, heirs of her body.
In my view, the outcome as well as other events, is generally indicative of
her having lost her entire direct issue.
I am sure that some people (such as in 1800s and 1900s) have found it in
themselves to claim descent even from her, and presumably by those
usually-suspect grounds such as "name is the same".... But I would bet there
are grave weaknesses in pedigrees concocted to give surviving progeny to
her. I look forward to hearing specifics about what sort of lineages have
been created to have her among ancestors.


3) Marjorie, countess of Meneteadhaich, (or, Margery, in some other
rendition), apparently bears the same name as Marjorie/Mairi/Mairead/Margery
inghen Alaxandair, here-now-often-mentioned illegitimate daughter of that
king, and clearly herself mother of Anne inghen Ailin
Anne inghen Ailin is plausible to have named her (eldest) daughter as
namesake of her own mother. This is yet one more (though weak) support for
Marjorie countess of Meneteadhaich as having been daughter (and not
sister-in-law) of Anne inghen Ailin countess of Fibh.

M Sjostrom

unread,
Jan 21, 2011, 9:47:41 AM1/21/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Ermengarde, countess of Dunbar = March (born in est 1285)
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00164958&tree=LEO
may well have been (or was not) a direct descendant of Ermengarde of
Urquhart (born est 1240), elder sister of countess Anne inghen Ailin.
(such as, to be daughter of Nicholas de Soules, born est 1260, himself son
of Ermengarde of Urquhart)
But the passage of Dunbar inheritance in c1368 (resignation or death of
Black Agnes' husband), do not in my view support that this very Ermengarde
would have had any direct heirs, heirs of her body, surviving.

In my view, the outcome as well as other events, is generally indicative of
her husband having lost his entire direct issue.

Alexander de Dunbar (fl c1330; whose own son should been born in 1310s)
cannot chronologically have been son of countess Ermengarde, I believe.
Thusly Alexander had presumably to be Ermengarde's brother-in-law and anyway
out of her issue.

John P. Ravilious

unread,
Jan 21, 2011, 10:53:22 AM1/21/11
to
On Jan 21, 2:29 am, Alex Maxwell Findlater

----------------

Dear Alex,

You are correct as to Groby, co. Leics being a Ferrers
inheritance via de Quincy. This was not however inherited from Alan
of Galloway or the Morevilles: Groby was held by the Beaumont earls of
Leicester in chief, and so came with Margaret de Beaumont to the de
Quincys. Margaret de Beaumont's granddaughter Margaret de Quincy then
held same in chief, and fined with the King to enfeoff her son William
in 1280 [1].

As to Groby in the 14th century, note that _William de Ferrers_
was the husband of Elen(a), not Murdoch of Menteith. It has been put
forward by others that Elen may have been of the Menteith family - she
was claimed to have been of the Segrave family, but a forthcoming
publication will assert that William had a first wife of that family,
and that Elen was a 2nd marriage. Perhaps Elen was a younger sister
of Alan and Murdoch de Menteith - would make for another nicely paired
match.

Cheers,

John


Notes

[1] Bain, CDS I:57. Robert de Beaumont, earl of Leicester (d. 1190)
and father of Margaret (wife of Saier de Quincy) held Groby in chief -
it was taken from him for a period by King Henry II in 1174 in
retribution for his support of the Young King [Stubbs ed. of Chronica
magistri Rogeri de Houedene, 2:101].

John P. Ravilious

unread,
Jan 21, 2011, 11:08:11 AM1/21/11
to

------------

Dear 'M',

I agree with you as to #3) above, and await publication by others
that will address #2).

As to your first query re: Murdoch of Menteith and his parentage,
note that Alan 'I', earl of Menteith died some time before 13 March
1308/09 [CPR 2 Edw II, mem. 10, p. 108, mentioned in a prior post in
this thread]. His son and heir was a minor at that time, and possibly
for a brief period thereafter: a petition dated by Joseph Bain as
'[1309-14]' was made by Gilbert Malherbe to King Edward II seeking 'a
grant of the ward and marriage of the late Earl of Menteith's son and
heir...' [Bain, CDS III:78, no. 410]. If the son and heir of Alan
'I' [who happens to have been Alan 'II'] was a minor at that date, any
younger brother would have been younger yet.

If Alan 'II' of Menteith was born in 1288 at the earliest - let's
say 1295 at the latest - then a younger brother would likelier have
been born no earlier than 1290, say 1292x1297 ? That would make him
aged say 19 to 24 at the time of the grant (19 Jan 1316/7) by William
de Ferrers. He would need to have been of age (21) at the time to be
a party to the grant and re-grant, so he could not have been born
later than 19 Jan 1295/6. Possibly, but I think a little tight, no?

The better possibility, allowing a looser reign on the
chronology, would be for Murdoch to have been one of the younger
brothers of Alan 'I', and brother-in-law of Margery of Fife, countess
of Menteith. He would likely have been just a bit younger than
William de Ferrers at the time.

Cheers,

John

M Sjostrom

unread,
Jan 21, 2011, 11:38:14 AM1/21/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
2011/1/21 M Sjostrom <mqs...@gmail.com>

>
>
> 1) is there some convincing reason why count Muireadhach, mormaer of
> Meneteadhaich (d 1332 or so) must have been brother specifically of Marjorie
> [of Fibh]'s husband Ailean, and not brother of Marjorie's son mormaer Ailean
> the younger
> ?
> (which latter alternative would make mormaer Muireadhach presumably as
> younger son of Marjorie herself, and thusly Groby's nephew as his
> half-sister's son if the reconstruction holds)
>
> I would have thought that chronologically, Muireadhach getting slain in his
> thirties or so, would be more consistent with the cultural context, than him
> at that being as old as presumably would a great-uncle be.
>
>
>

freer rein of chronology, perhaps desirable (but not necessary), besides:
except, I find it very plausible that quite soon when a younger son had come
to age, his maternal uncle would make things to ensure to the young man some
livelihood. This consideration in my view argues FOR such a tight chronology
- that the conferral took place when the young man was recently out of
minority.
In this reconstruction, Muireadhach would have been born snugly in c1295

In the cultural context, the primogeniture generally took care of the eldest
son. Younger sons were those who were in need of special arrangements. There
were customs that the mother's some hereditacy was arranged to a younger
son, by the maternal family, already when the parties were alive, and
because such a transaction ensured the younger one's right to that in face
of otherwise-effective primogeniture.

John P. Ravilious

unread,
Feb 22, 2011, 1:41:34 PM2/22/11
to
> of otherwise-effective primogeniture.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

----------------------

Tuesday, 22 February, 2011


Dear 'M', et al.,

With regard to the exact parentage of Murdoch, Earl of Menteith,
I have located evidence which resolves the matter. Following is the
extract given in the NAS online database of a charter of Earl Murdoch,
in which he is described as "son of Alexander, deceased earl of
Menethethe":


" Reference GD198/38

Title Charter de me by Mordach [Murdoch], earl of Menethethe
[Menteith], son of Alexander, deceased earl of Menethethe, to Sir
Walter of Menethethe, son of Sir John of Menethethe, of land of Thom
in granter's earldom of Menethethe, viz., beginning at water of Theth
[River Teith], where march of town of Dune [Doune] extends to march of
land of Conulathe, with 4 merkland in Conulathe adjacent to land of
Thom on south, with lands of 3 Lanarkynys [Lanrick] in Menethethe,
passing by march of Seskentuly, Bucopill [Boquhapple] and Thorri
[Torrie] to water of Theth [Teith] on west, descending said river to
march of said town of Dune [Doune], with fishing of water of Theth
[Teith].
Dates 1317-1332
Access status Open

Description This document is dated at no earlier than 1317 and no
later than 1332. Witnesses: Sir John of Menethethe [Menteith], kt.,
Sir Malise of Stratherne [Strathearn], kt., and Sir William of
Montefixo, kt., sir Christian, prior of island of St. Colmoc
[Inchmahome], Alexander of Menethethe, Gilbert of Drummond, Malcolm of
Drummond. Fragment of tag, seal gone. "[1]


There is other charter evidence that Earl Murdoch had a brother
Alexander: we can reasonably presume that the "Alexander of
Menethethe" who witnessed this charter was that brother.

Cheers,

John

Notes

[1] NAS, Papers of the Haldane Family of Gleneagles, Perthshire,
GD198/38

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages