C.P. Addition: Origin of Sir Ralph de Monthermer, Earl of Gloucester [died 1325]

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

The origins and parentage of Sir Ralph de Monthermer, Knt., Earl of
Gloucester [died 1325], the second husband of Joan of Acre [daughter
of King Edward I of England] have always been shrouded in mystery.

Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 709-710 (sub Gloucester) says the
following of him:

"Ralph de Monthermer, whose parentage is unknown, is said to have come
from the bishopric of Durham. He was in the household of Gilbert, Earl
of Gloucester and Hertford, whose widow Joan appears to have been
attracted by his personal charms, and to have obtained a knighthood
for him." END OF QUOTE

Despite what Complete Peerage says, I've never found any evidence
which suggests Ralph de Monthermer derived from the bishopric of
Durham. As such, I think this allegation can be completely
discounted.

What little clues we have regarding Ralph de Monthermer's origin are
two items which indicate that he was related to the ancient knightly
family of Bluet, seated in Wiltshire and Hampshire, but which also had
a cadet branch seated at Raglan, Monmouthshire, Wales. These two
items are presented below.

1. Date: 28 October 1303. A safe conduct was granted as Skamskynel to
Ralph de Monthermer, Earl of Gloucester, and to his "bacheler and
cousin," Sir John Bluet [Reference: Joseph Bain, Calendar of Documents
relating to Scotland, 4 (1888): 370; citation kindly provided by
Andrew MacEwen, of Stockton Springs, Maine].

The above citation may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924091754410#page/n421/mode/2up

2. Visitations of Devon 1564 (ed. Frederic Thomas Colby), [year of
visitation was 1520], "Blewett" [of Holcombe Rogus?], pp. 21-22,
refers to the following couple:

"Ralph Blewett, Knt, lord of Ragland = Avis, sister of Gilbert de
Monthermer." END OF QUOTE.

Recently I happened to come across a transcript of St. Edmundsbury
Chronicle which covers the period, 1296–1301, as published in English
Historical Review, 58 (1943): 51–78.

Included in the Chronicle is the following information regarding Ralph
de Monthermer, 2nd husband of Joan of Acre, daughter of King Edward I
of England:

pg. 63 “Mortuo comite Glovernie Gilberto adhesit quidem iuvenis
nomine Radulphus de marchia oriundus cognomine Mowhermer a secretis
comitisse; quo militaribus a rege peticione dicte comitisse accincto
sollempnitate tepide vel publice non promulgata dictam comitassam
desponsavit." END OF QUOTE.

Offlist Matt Thompkins has kindly provided me a translation of the
above text:

"After the death of Gilbert, earl of Gloucester, a youth called Ralph,
born in the March, surnamed Mowhermer, became intimate with the
countess; knighted by the king at the said countess’ request, he
married the said countess with little ceremony and no public
announcement." END OF QUOTE.

Matt added the following comment:

"I imagine for you the crucial phrase is ‘de Marchia oriundus’.
Oriundus is often translated as ‘born’, ‘native’, but annoyingly for
your purposes it wasn’t a precise synonym for those words, it had a
slightly wider meaning, comprehending ‘springing from’, ‘originating’,
though usually in the sense of birth or at least ancestry." END OF
QUOTE.

Inasmuch as the St. Edmundsbury Chronicle was contemporary to the life
of Ralph de Monthermer, I think the statement that Ralph de Monthermer
was born in the March of Wales should be a fairly reliable indication
of his correct origins.

Thanks go to Matt Thompkins for providing the translation of the
chronicle text above.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

In my previous post, I inadvertedly mispelled Matt Tompkins' name as
Thompkins.

My apologies to Matt.

[Maree Gordon]

Sir Ralph de Monthermer / Radulphi de Monte Hermerii

Born: 1262, Acre, Hazafon, Palestine Married: 1297, Joane
Plantagent of Acre

Became Earl of Atholl, Scotland 1306

Created Lord Monthermer in 1308

He was summoned to Parliament from 4 March 1308 /9 to 13 September
1324, by writs directed Radulpho de Monte Hermerii

Died: 5 Apr 1325, Grey Friars, England


Eleanor of Woodstock (18 June 1318 – 22 April 1355

In 1324 she was taken into care by her cousin Eleanor de Clare then
sent to the care of

Ralph de Mothermer and Isabella Hastings

with her younger sister Joan of the Tower at Pleshey.

In 1325, there were negotiations between England and Castile for
Eleanor to be betrothed to Alphonso XI of Castile, but this fell
through due to the dowry.


GOOGLE :: Radulpho de Monte Hermerii

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Maree ~

The information you googled on Ralph de Monthermer is incorrect. It
was his first wife, Joan of Acre, who was born at Acre, not Ralph de
Monthermer.

Also Ralph's birthdate is unknown. The birthdate you post of 1262 is
fictitious.

Sincerely, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Janet Wolfe]

Doug, thanks for posting the very valuable quotation and translation from
the Chronicle of St. Edmundsbury.

It seems Ralph was a charming young man. Knights of Edward I (vol. L-O, p.
190) says of him "He by whom they were well supported acquired after great
doubts and fears, until it pleased God he should be delivered, the love of
the Countess of Gloucester, for whom he had a long time endured great
suffering. He had only a Banner of fine gold with three red chevrons. He
made no bad appearance when attired in his own arms, which were Yellow with
a green eagle. His name was Ralph de Monthermer." The quotation cites
Carlaverock which is listed at the front of the book as "Rolls and Lists of
Arms to 1327 ... Carlaverock 1300."

In her biography of Elizabeth de Burgh (daughter of Joan of Acre by her
first husband Gilbert de Clare), Frances Underhill writes (p. 6-7), "The Red
Earl died in his early 50s, his widow, Joan, was 23. Joan's worth had
escalated, as the jointure arrangement at her marriage provided that the
survivor of the Clare couple would hold Gilbert's vast estates ... Edward I
lost no time in trying again to forge continental ties through her marriage,
even announcing her engagement to the count of Savoy. But Joan had moved
more quickly and had already married a knight of her own choice, Ralph de
Monthermer, who had served Earl Gilbert as a squire and remained in Joan's
entourage after the earl died. She arranged for the King to knight Ralph
before she secretly married him, probably in January 1297. When Edward
learned of the marriage, he confiscated Joan's lands and imprisoned Ralph in
Bristol Castle. The king possessed the power to punish Joan and her new
husband but could not abrogate the marriage, as the Church recognized that a
valid marriage existed when both parties gave their free consent. To soften
her father's stance, Joan sent her daughters to him before she pleaded her
cause in person, with some success. She received back most of the
confiscated lands, and Ralph was freed and granted the title earl of
Gloucester and Hertford during his wife's lifetime. Joan had evaded her
father's rights as overload to have a say in her marriage; legally she
should have obtained his license for her second marriage, but obviously that
license would have been denied. Dynastically, her union wasted the
matrimonial potential of a king's daughter and brought nothing to her family
or the Crown."

(p.7) Joan "died in April 1307, aged 35 ... Ralph lost his title at Joan's
death but still received royal favors, probably for a noteworthy war record
and his association with the royal house. Ralph apparently retained the
charm that had attracted Joan, for he contracted a second, secret marriage
with Isabella de Valence, widow of John de Hastings and sister of Earl Aymer
de Valence of Pembroke ... Though medieval noblewomen were raised to expect
arranged marriages, Ralph twice persuaded wealthy, high-born women to
neglect the values of their class to marry him, even in the face of
predictable royal displeasure and the prospect of heavy fines."

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Richardson
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 4:39 PM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: C.P. Addition: Origin of Sir Ralph de Monthermer, Earl of
Gloucester [died 1325]

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[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

There are other records in which Sir Ralph de Monthermer is associated
with the Bluet family.

In 1298, for example, a certain Ralph Bluet was in the retinue of
Ralph de Monthermer in Scotland. See Gough, Scotland in 1298 (1888):
51, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1UcJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA317&lpg=PA51

The same year, a John Bluet was also in the retinue of Ralph de
Monthermer. See Gough, Scotland in 1298 (1888): 20, which may be

viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1UcJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20

In 1311 King Edward II granted a license at the request of Ralph de
Monthermer for Eleanor, widow of William de Brianzon, [of Essex]
tenant in chief, to marry John Bluet, if she will. See Calendar of
Patent Rolls, 1307-1313 (1894), pg. 407, which may be viewed at the
following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=c4Q4boDfHucC&pg=PA407

Evidently Eleanor was so willing, and the couple were duly married.

I can readily identify this man as Sir John Bluet, of Lackham,
Wiltshire, and Silchester, Hampshire. He presumably is the Sir John
Bluet who was styled "bacheler and cousin" of Sir Ralph de Monthermer
in 1303.

Presumably he is also the John Bluet who held half a knight's fee at
Lantrissen, Monmouthshire for life by the grant of Sir Ralph de
Monthermer. See the following snippet views:

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=John+Bluet+Lantrissen&btnG=

In 1308 John Bluet, knight, lord of Lackham, granted Robert Delebrig',
clerk, certain rents for his life, subject to a yearly payment of two
pounds of wax to the Chaplain of the Bless Mary the Virgin of
Lackham. For a copy of this grant, see Wiltshire Notes and Queries, 3
(1902): 5-6, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=qrJCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5

In 1311 Sir John Bluet agreed to surrender to the abbess and convent
of Lacock his share of the advowson of the church of St. Cyriac at
Lacock belonging to his family. On 3 March Bishop Simon of Ghent
authorized appropriation. The necessary royal licence being issued on
the day following. The transaction was completed in 1316, when the
abbess and convent were formally inducted as rector by order of Bishop
Roger Martival. For this information, see VCH Wiltshire, 3 (1956):
303-316, which is available at the following weblink:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=36542

Sir John Bluet died shortly before 17 January 1317 [see VCH Hampshire,
4 (1911): 51-56]. At his death, Sir John Bluet was buried in the Lady
Chapel of the Abbey Church of Lacock, where an obit was celebrated for
him until the Dissolution.

[Janet Wolfe]

There are a number of entries for John Bluet in the Calendar of Patent Rolls
(U. Iowa website). In particular, this one may by relevant to Doug's
analysis:
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e1v3/body/Edward1vol3page0534.pdf.

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Richardson
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 6:33 PM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com

Subject: Re: C.P. Addition: Origin of Sir Ralph de Monthermer, Earl of
Gloucester [died 1325]

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

There are various records of Sir John Bluet (died 1317), of Lackham,
Wiltshire and Silchester, Hampshire, in the A2A Catalogue.

The first item below is a letter of attorney issued by Sir John
Bluet's son-in-law, Edmund Baynard, in 1335, which record indicates
that Sir John Bluet had a brother named Ralph Bluet, who was still
living in 1335. There are two references to Margery, wife of Sir John
Bluet, living c.1300-1305, who I believe was Sir John's first wife.
Sir John's second wife, Eleanor [de Brianzon], is named is a document
dated 1316.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + ++ + + + + + + + +

1. Gloucestershire Archives, Badminton Muniments Volume II, Estate and
Household

D2700/NR11/1/6 1334/5

Letter of attorney from Edmund Baynard to Henry of Gerston relating to
the administration of all the lands in England and Wales inherited by
his wife Alienore, daughter and one of the heirs of Sir John Bluet, or
which she may inherit after the death of Ralph Bluet, her uncle,
including parcels occupied by William de Cusance
Witnesses: Henry the clerke; Richard Fynor; Richard of Sprotford;
William of Bokesworth
Kyngeston, Cambridgeshire; 14 January
[110.5.6]

2. Gloucestershire Archives, Badminton Muniments Volume II, Estate
and Household

D2700/NR11/1/3 (1299/1300)

16th century copies of grant by Edward I to John Bluet of an annual
fair lasting 2 days on the eve and feast of St. Laurence (9 and 10
August) in his manor of Helmerton, and free warren in his demesne
lands of the manor of Helmerton and his demesne lands of Lakham
Gateshead, 8 January
[110.1.34(7)]

3. Gloucestershire Archives, Badminton Muniments Volume II, Estate and
Household

D2700/NR11/1/4 c.1300

Grant by Alice of Calne to Sir John Bluet and wife Margery of her
tenement, messuages, land, meadow, pasture and rent which she has in
Helmertone, and which Thomas Bonet her father formerly held.
Witnesses: William of Hyweye; William of Corstone; Walter of
Langgeford; Walter Maudict; Peter of the Herse; Richard the Berner;
William of Dodeford
Undated; seal of Alice of Calne
[110.1.33(1)]

4. Gloucestershire Archives, Badminton Muniments Volume II, Estate and
Household

D2700/NR11/1/5 1304/5
Quitclaim to Sir John Bluet, Kt., and wife Margery, by John Aleyn and
his wife Margaret, of all rights of dower which Margaret has at
Wydecumbe from John of Bremel, her first husband deceased, in return
for an annuity of 20s. amd a quarter of wheat. Witnesses: William of
Corestone; William of Hyweye; William the Schypyneyn; Walter Maudit;
Robert Rossel; William of Doddeford; Roger of Pekyngehulle.
22 March
[110.5.6]

5. Hampshire Record Office, Jervoise family of Herriard

44M69/C/252

Grant for life, Date: 2 February 1314/5

Contents:
By Thomas de Coudray
To Master Jacob de Moun [Master James de Mohun], Cecilia de Bello
Campo [Cecily de Beauchamp], and Roger de Essex,
Of the manor of Heryerde.
Rent: 26 li. p.a. for 15 years. thereafter 100 li. p.a.
Witnesses: Sir John Bluet, John de Scures Hugo de Braybeof,
Bartholomew Peche Knts., John de Knolle, William de Bynteworth, John
de Herierd, Ralph de Coudray and others.
Dated: at London, Purification.

6. Wiltshire and Swindon Archives, Money-Kyrle Family

1720/100 1316

Language: French

Contents:
Grant by John Bluet, Lord of Lacham (Lackham) to Gilbert de Fynemor,
Alice his wife and John and Edith their children, of a piece of land
which he had of the King's waste, by the bail and livery of Sir John
de Foxle, Sir William de Hardene and Sir Hugh de Hampslape, in the
forest of Pewesham at Horselaperith; paying to him and his wife
Alianore and their heirs yearly 2½ marks.
Witnesses: Sir John de Holte, Sir John de la Mare, knights, John
Turpin, Peter de la Huese, Adam Harding.

7. Berkeley Castle Muniments

BCM/A/2/44/3 [1294]

Roger le Bygod, earl of Norfolk and marshal of England, and John ab
Adam. 13 May 22 Edw. I
Roger has granted to John a weekly market on Wednesdays at his manor
of Betesle, and an annual fair on the vigil, day and morrow of St.
Margaret the virgin [19-21 July], and free warren in all his demesne
lands of Betesle and la Gorste.
Witnesses: Sir Ralph abbot of Tintern, Sir Thomas de Berkele, Sir
Maurice de Berkele his son, Sir John Bluet, knights, Sir William de
Beccles, Roger's chancellor, Philip le Waleys, Philip de la More.
At: London.

8. Hampshire Record Office, Jervoise family of Herriard

HERRIARD, SOUTHROP, LYFORD (Berks.), MOLSHO (Bucks.). Notification

44M69/C/11 20 May 1297

By Thomas de Coudray Knt.
That he held of his father Sir Peter de Coudray the manors of Herierd
with hamlet of Suththorpe for rent of 30 li p.a., issuing out of lands
in Herierd and Suththorpe, and his own manors of Lyford, co. Berks.,
and Molsho, co.Bucks.
Witnesses: Sir Hugo de St John, Thomas Paynel, John Bluet and Thomas
de Warblinton Knts., Ralph Wasterhus, John de Herierd, Robert de
Herierd, Robert de Dogemaresfeld and others.
Dated: at Westminster, Monday after St. Dunstan.
Obverse: note of enrolment in roll of enrolled charters, Easter term
15 Ed.I. (Vid. Calendar of Charter Rolls vol.II).

9. Hampshire Record Office, Jervoise family of Herriard.

HERRIARD; Grant Date: 2 September 1307

44M69/C/248

By Thomas de Coudray Knt.
To Ralph de Coudray, his brother
Of all the lands of John de Hynewode in Heryerd, and 1 croft of land
called la Rude in Heryerd, 1 field called Buxlye (except the mill in
that field).
Quitrent: ld p.a.
Witnesses: Sir John Bluet, Thomas de Wockyndone, Thomas de
Warblyngton, Knts., John de Heryerd, Henry de la Stonhupe, John de la
Hurst and others.
Dated: Sat., after Nativity St. John Baptist.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

There is a lengthy and useful discussion of Sir John Bluet (died
1317), of Lackham, Wiltshire, the cousin and bachelor of Sir Ralph de
Monthermer, found online at the following weblink:

http://www.lackham.co.uk/history/the_bluets_09.pdf

The discussion includes a variety of documents which detail Sir John
Bluet's life and career. No attempt is made, however, to explain Sir
John Bluet's kinship to Sir Ralph de Monthermer, Earl of Gloucester
and Hertford.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 86–88 (sub Montagu) has a good account of
Sir John de Montagu, Knt., Lord Montagu, who died in 1390. Regarding
his marriage to Margaret de Monthermer, the following information is
provided:

"He married before the end of 1343 Margaret, according to modern
doctrine, suo jure Baroness Monthermer, daughter and heiress of Thomas
de Monthermer [Lord Monthermer]." END OF QUOTE.

No source is provided for this statement. However, in the same
Montagu account on page 86, it is stated that John de Montagu had
seisin of his wife's lands on 20 Dec. 1343, citing as the source:
Calendar of Close Rolls, 1343-46, pg. 319.

Elsewhere in Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 143–144 (sub Monthermer)
indicates that Margaret de Monthermer was born 14 October 1329 at
Stokeham, Devon and that her marriage had been granted not once, but
twice by the king: First, on 2 July 1340 to William de Montagu, Earl
of Salisbury [father of her eventual husband], and 30 July 1340 to
Robert de Ferrers.

The confusion caused by these two conflicting grants triggered an
enquiry dated 13 October 1340 addressed by the king to John de
Grandison, Bishop of Exeter, who had been granted custody of young
Margaret de Monthermer. The enquiry and its response is published in
the Register of John de Grandisson, Bishop of Exeter, 1 (1894): 63–64,

which may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ppRAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA63

For those of you who are unable to view this record in Google Books,
I've transcribed the Latin version of this record, followed by an
English translation kindly provided by Matt Tompkins:

143. - Tested by Edward, Duke of Cornwall, etc., 13 Oct. 1340, - Cum
nuper, de gracia nostra specialii, et in auxilium expensarum quas ....
Dominus Robertus de Ferrariis in obsequio nostro sustinuit,
concesserimus ei maritagium Margarete, filie et heredis Thome de Monte
Hermerii, defuncti, qui de nobis tenuit in capite, infra atatem, et in
Custodia nostra existentis, habendum sine disparagacione et absque
aliquo nobis inde reddendo, prout in Literis nostris Patentibus inde
confectis plenius continetur; et vobis pluries mandaverimus quod eidem
Roberto corpus heredis predicte, in Custodia vestra, ut dicitur,
existens, liberetis maritandum in forma predicta, vel causam nobis
significaretis quare Mandato nostrop vobis inde directo minime
paruistis; ac vos, spretis Mandatis nostris predictis, ut accepimus,
predicto Roberto corpus predicte heredis liberare, vel saltem causam
quare id facere noluistis vel non potuistis, nobis significare
hactenus non curaveritis, in nostri ac Mandatorum nostrorum
predictorum contemptum et ipsius Roberti dampnum non modicum et
gravamen, de quo miramur quam plurimum et movemur, - vobis, igitur,
adhuc mandamus firmiter injungentes quod predicto Roberto corpus
predicte heredis liberetis, juxta tenorem Mandatorum nostrorum
predictorum prius vobis inde directorum, vel vos ipsi sitis coram
Consilio nostro, apud Westmonasterium, in Octabis Sancti Martini [18
Nov.], ostensuri quare Mandatis nostris, tociens vobis inde directis,
parere contempsistis. - Return, - Huic Brevi, cum debita reverencia,
respondemus quod Mandatis vestris, si que nobis directa fuerant,
parere non contempsimus, set corpus dicte Margarete per Johannem de
Chedeseye, Attornatum Nobilis Viri, Domini Willelmi de Monte acuto,
Comitis Sarum - cui per Escaetorem vestrum, nomine quorundam debitorum
ejusdem Comitis, ex assignacione vestra liberatum extitit, prout nobis
exhibita Breva vestra, sigillo Cancellarie sigillata, continebant -
nobis traditum, per aliqua tempora ad utilitatem predicti Comitis
custodivimus, Et, postea, Attornato ejusdem Comitis, super hoc cum
instancia requisiti, idem corpus retradidimus, ut decebat; quod nunc,
eo quod in potestate nostra non erat tempore recepcionis hujusmodi
Brevis, Domino Roberto de Ferrariis, aut alii cuicumque ex parte sua,
nequivimus liberare. Et postea, sicut ex quamplurium fidedignorum
super hoc coram nobis juratorum assercione concepimus, eadem Margareta
Johanni de Monte acuto, filio prefati Comitis, matrimonialiter est
conjuncta. Placeat, igitur, Regie Majestati nos habere super hiis
nobis impositis excusatos.

ENGLISH TRANSLATION OF ABOVE:

143. - Tested by Edward, Duke of Cornwall, etc.., 13 Oct. 1340, -

Whereas lately, by our special grace, and in aid of the expenses
which .... Sir Robert de Ferrers sustained in our service, we granted
to him the marriage of Margaret, daughter and heir of Thomas de
Monthermer, deceased, who held of us in chief, being within age and in
our custody, to have without disparagement and without paying anything
therein to us, as is fully contained in our Letters Patent issued
therein;

and we several times ordered that you should deliver the person of the
aforesaid heir, being, as was said, in your custody, to the same
Robert to marry in the aforesaid form, or show us cause why you did
not perform our direct order to you therein;

and you, ignoring, as we hear, our aforesaid orders, have still not
arranged to deliver the person of the aforesaid heir to the aforesaid
Robert, or to explain to us why you would not or could not do that, in
contempt of us and our aforesaid orders and to the considerable and
grave damage of the same Robert, which surprises and concerns us
greatly;

therefore we again order and firmly enjoin that you should deliver the
person of the aforesaid heir according to the tenor of our aforesaid
orders therein previously send to you, or yourself appear before our
Council at Westminster in the octave of St Martin [18 Nov.], to show
why you refused to obey our orders, sent to you therein so many times.

- Return,

To the writ, with due respect, we answer that we did not refuse to
perform your orders, if they were indeed sent to us, but for some time
kept safe the person of the said Margaret, surrendered to us by John
de Chedeseye, attorney of the noble man Sir William de Montagu, earl
of Salisbury (to whom it was granted, in respect of certain of the
same earl’s debts, by your Escheator at your direction, as contained
in your writ, shown to us, sealed with the Chancery seal, for the
benefit of the aforesaid earl,

And subsequently, having been strongly pressed for it, we returned the
same person to the attorney of the same earl, as was proper;

which [person] we are now unable to deliver to Sir Robert de Ferrers,
or to anyone on his behalf, because she was not in our control when we
received this writ.

And subsequently, as we understand from the statements of many
trustworthy persons sworn on this before us, the same Margaret was
joined in marriage to John de Montagu, son of the aforesaid earl.

Therefore let it please the king’s majesty to hold us innocent of
these charges. END OF ENGLISH TRANSLATION.

+ + + + + + + + + + +

As shown above, the king contacted Bishop John de Grandison on 13 Oct.
1340, and asked him to explain why he had failed to deliver the body
of young Margaret de Monthermer to Robert de Ferrers. The king
ordered the Bishop to deliver Margaret de Monthermer as requested and
that the bishop appear before the King's council at Westminster on 18
Nov. 1340 to explain his actions.

The bishop made a response to this enquiry and stated that the
marriage of young Margaret de Monthermer had been granted to William
de Montagu and that he had since delivered Margaret into the custody
of the earl's attorney. He further stated that he understood that the
same Margaret was already joined in marriage to John de Montagu, son
of the aforesaid earl.

While there is no date on the bishop's response, it presumably took
place before 18 November 1340, when the bishop was ordered to appear
in the king's court. But, it was certainly before 1 February 1340/1,
on which date the king made the following grant:

"Indemnity to John, bishop of Exeter, with respect of his taking of
Margaret, daughter and heir of Thomas de Monte Hermerii, tenant in
chief, detaining her for some time and then delivering her to William
de Monte Acuto, earl of Salisbury, with the king's will and the assent
of Robert de Ferrariis, to whom her marriage had been granted by the
king." END OF QUOTE. Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1340–1343
(1900): 126, which may viewed at the following weblink:

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v5/body/Edward3vol5page0126.pdf

Since the grant of indemnity to the Bishop obviously followed his
response to the king, we can safely conclude that John de Montagu and
Margaret de Monthermer were married before 1 February 1340/1, when
Margaret was at the ripe age of 11 years old.

In closing, I wish to extend special thanks to Matt Tompkins for
providing the English translation of the document taken from Bishop
Grandison's Register.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Buried in the material in the Monthermer account published in Complete
Peerage is a claim in Volume 9 (1936): 142, footnote k, to the effect
that Sir Ralph de Monthermer, Earl of Gloucester and Hertford (died
1325), "may have left an illegitimate son, Ralph de Monthermer, dead
before 1340 (Year Book 14 Edw. III, Rolls Ser., p.69, whose widow
Alice m. Reynold de Paveley. A Reynold de Paveley was one of Ralph's
'people' for whom protections were granted (Anc. Corresp., 35/194),
query in 1315." END OF QUOTE.

I had the opportunity of examining the source for this claim this past
week. The material in question is a discussion of a law suit dated
Michaelmas term 1340 filed by Reynold de Paveley, and Alice his wife,
against Robert Achard regarding a debt. The discussion is found in
Year Books of Edward III: Years XIV–XV 5 (Rolls Ser. 31b) (1889): 69–
70, and may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=jrsvAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69

As typical of Year Books, the details of the actual case are sparse.
The following is what is said:

"Debt, brought by Reginald Pavely and Alice his wife. And they
counted that the defendant [Robert Achard] bound himself to Alice and
to one Ralph de Monthermer in 1,000l. on condition that if the
defendant did not aliene his manors of A. and B., so that his son
[Peter] could have the inheritance of them after his death, then the
obligation should lose its force, and that if he did aliene, &c., it
should stand good; and they counted that the defendant aliened the
manor of B. to two chaplains after the death of Ralph, whereby an
action accrued ... The executors of Ralph are not named." END OF
QUOTE.

Alice, wife of Reynold Pavely, is not styled "widow of Ralph de
Monthermer" in the discussion, only that Robert Achard had earlier
bound himself to Alice and "one Ralph de Monthermer." Ralph de
Monthermer had evidently died testate before 1340.

In a footnote on pg. 69, the Year Books editor states that "according
to the record" [i.e., the original lawsuit], Ralph de Monthermer was
Alice's "previous husband." However, this appears not to be the case.

Alice, wife of Sir Reynold de Pavely, was actually the widow of Sir
John de Saint John, 1st Lord Saint John of Basing, who died shortly
before 4 April 1329. Alice married (2nd) by license dated 22 June
1333 (as his 2nd wife) Reynold de Paveley, Knt., of Westbury and Brook
(in Westbury), Wiltshire, Sheriff of Wiltshire, 1335–6, son and heir
of Walter de Paveley, of Westbury and Brook (in Westbury), Wiltshire,
Sheriff of Wiltshire. He was born about 1293 (aged 30 in 1323). Sir
Reynold de Paveley died 15 Feb. 1347 [see Complete Peerage, 11 (1949):
325–326].

As for Ralph de Monthermer, the only person that I know of that name
in this time period is Sir Ralph de Monthermer, Earl of Gloucester and
Hertford, who died in 1325. He died testate in 1325, as his will was
enrolled in London 15 July 1325. He can't, however, have been married
to Alice de Paveley, as he was survived by his 2nd wife, Isabel le
Despenser, who died in 1334.

My guess is the action regarding the Achard properties probably
involved dower lands of Alice acting as widow of Sir John de Saint
John, not as widow of Ralph de Monthermer. Can anyone confirm that
the Achard family held lands under the Saint John family?

If nothing else, this lawsuit establishes that Alice, wife
successively of Sir John de Saint John and Sir Reynold de Paveley, was
living at Michaelmas term 1340. That would be a new addition for the
Saint John account in Complete Peerage, Volume 11.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

There is an item in Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1327-1330 (1891), pg.
73, which records a complaint made in 1327 by John de Saint John that
Robert Achard and others broke his park at Sherborne, Hampshire, and
carried away deer, and trespassed in his free warren at Basing,
Hampshire, and carried away rabbits.

This item may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v1/body/Edward3vol1page0073.pdf

If nothing else, this record proves that Robert Achard, the defendant
in the 1340 lawsuit cited in my last post, personally knew John de
Saint John, the first husband of Alice de Paveley.

[Maree Gordon]

Any help here to anyone.....??

Part 10. The Revells of Berkshire, Buckinghamshire and Oxfordshire ...
family held land at Woolhampton (Berkshire) in tenencia from the
early 12th century. ... de feodo eiusdem Roberti Achard''.4 Whether
Wullavinton is Woolhampton ... 6 'Hugh Revel: Master of the Hospital
of St John of Jerusalem 1258-1277' by ... under water injuriously by
the neglect of Mathew Ryvel, therefore in ...
www.rotherhamweb.co.uk/revill/part10.pdf - Cached - Similar

Aldermaston - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As with much of the land seized by William the Conqueror after his
arrival in ... In the mid-12th century, the Achard family founded the
church of St Mary the Virgin. ... Aldermaston was held by the Achard
family until the 14th century, when it .... Aldermaston is under the
catchment of Thames Valley Police and is covered by the ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldermaston - Cached - Similar

Aldermaston Court - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Achard family hosted Henry III at the manor in 1227, but later
gave the ... In October of the following year, a regiment of
Parliamentary troops under the ... William Congreve's butler at
Aldermaston House, John Manning, died on 31 August 1811. .... by the
government and used as a barracks for the Women's Land Army. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldermaston_Court - Cached - Similar

Parishes - Sparsholt | A History of the County of Berkshire: Volume
4 ...
2) and it seems probable that some members of the Achard family made
their ... Sixteen hides in SPARSHOLT were held before the Conquest as
three manors by three freemen. .... The tenant under the abbot in
1086 was Anskil de Seacourt. .... In 1544 the demesne lands of St.
John of Jerusalem in Westcot were granted to ...
www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=62720 - Cached - Similar

A Rebel of 1483: Sir Thomas de la Mare by Kenneth Hillier

The earliest reference to a de la Mare holding land in Steeple
Lavington that I can find, is that ... demesne of the Crown under the
early Normans. ... The manor was held in 1316 by a descendant,
another Robert Achard; in 1342 ... Cheyne, Hungerford, Berkeley, and
St Lo families in the retinue of John of Gaunt in the period ...

www.richardiii.net/PDFS/scan_hillier_thomas_mare.pdf - Cached - Similar

[Matt Tompkins]

Douglas, the original Common Pleas roll recording this case (CP 40/324
f. 165d) can be seen here:

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no324/cCP40no324dorses/IMG_0330.htm

It starts off:

Robertus Achard miles in misericordiam pro plures defaltis etc'
Predictam Robertus summonitus fuit ad respondend' Reginaldo de Pauely
militi et Alicie
uxori eius de placito quod reddat eis mille libras quas eis debet et
iniuste de-
tinet etc' Et unde ijdem Reginaldus et Alicia per Johannem de
Westbury attornatum suum dicunt
quod cum predictus Robertus die martis in festo apostolorum Phillipi
et Jacobi anno regni Regis Edwardi
patris domini Regis nunc duodecimo apud Beuerstan per scriptum suum
obligasset se
teneri cuidam Radulfo de Monte Hermeri et ipsi Alic' nunc uxori ipsius
Reginaldi
que ad tunc nominabatur Alic' que fuit uxor Johannis de Knouill
militis in predictis
mille libr' ...

[and later says]

... (qui quid Radulfus postmodum
obiit (et postmodum predictus Robertus die sabbati prox' post festum
sancti Thoma apostoli anno
regni domini regis nunc duodecim predictum manerium de Althermanston
alienauit ...

Which translates as:

Robert Achard knight in mercy for many defaults etc.
The aforesaid Robert was summoned to answer Reginald de Pavely,
knight, and Alice
in a plea that he should render to them a thousand pounds which he
owes them and unjustly withholds
etc. And thereon the same Reginald and Alice by John de Westbury
their attorney say
that whereas the aforesaid Robert on Tuesday in the feast of the
apostles Phillip and James in the twelfth
year of the reign of king Edward, father of the now lord king [1 May
1319] at Beverstone by his writing bound himself to a certain Ralph de
Monthermer and the same Alice, now the wife of the same Reginald,
who was then named Alice who was the wife of John de Knovill, knight,
in the aforesaid
thousand pounds ...
... (which Ralph afterwards died (and afterwards the aforesaid Robert
on Saturday after the feast of St Thomas
the apostle in the twelfth year of the reign of the now lord king [26
Dec 1338] transferred the aforesaid manor of Aldermaston ...

This has interesting things to say about Alice de Pavely's previous
husband(s), but also reveals that the Ralph de Monthermer she was
associated with was living in 1319 and died sometime between then and
1338. This opens up the possibility that he was in fact the earl of
Gloucester himself, not a previously unknown bastard son (though it's
a bit odd that he is referred to only as 'a certain Ralph de
Monthermer'). The year book entry in the Seipp on-line Yearbooks
Database hints at this possibility, here:

http://www.bu.edu/phpbin/lawyearbooks/display.php?id=9508

Matt Tompkins

[Doug]

Am i reading it right that she was also the wife of a John de
Knoville? If so she might be the Alice Wallis married to John de
Knoville who dies bef 23 Jan 1317.


Doug Smith

[Matt Tompkins]

It might be useful to add that the three manors which Robert Achard
was supposed to alienate to his son after his death are stated in CP
40/324 to be Althermarston, Estmarston and Speresholte (Aldermaston,
East Marston and Sparsholt), and that Aldermaston was alienated in
1338 to Walter de Stratford, parson of Shalyngford, and Thomas de
Auenewyk.

I gather from a bit of googling that Aldermaston and Sparsholt were
Achard's own hereditary lands, and were held in chief from the Crown.
(I'm not sure where East Marston was - it may possibly have been
Eastmanton, a farm in Sparsholt.)

Thinking more about the 'certain Ralph de Monthermer' who was party to
the 1319 bond; by that date the famous Ralph de Monthermer was no
longer earl of Gloucester, which makes it slightly more likely that he
was the man named so simply in the bond. His involvement in the bond
may not have stemmed from a family relationship but have been just an
act of good lordship to a retainer, Reginald de Pavely (who may have
thought that Achard would be more likely to perform his obligation if
it were given to a powerful baron - which Monthermer still was, even
after relinquishing the earldom to his step-son Ralph).

Matt

> his wife in a plea that he should render to them a thousand pounds which

[Matt Tompkins]

Oops, my translation omitted 2 words, 'his wife', from the start of
the third line. It should have read:

The aforesaid Robert was summoned to answer Reginald de Pavely,
knight, and Alice

*his wife* in a plea ...

Matt Tompkins

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

There is a Marston quite close to Aldermaston. It is N of the A4
perhaps by 3/4 miles (Aldermaston is just S of the A4).

[Joe]

>
> My guess is the action regarding the Achard properties probably
> involved dower lands of Alice acting as widow of Sir John de Saint
> John, not as widow of Ralph de Monthermer.  Can anyone confirm that
> the Achard family held lands under the Saint John family?
>
> If nothing else, this lawsuit establishes that Alice, wife
> successively of Sir John de Saint John and Sir Reynold de Paveley, was
> living at Michaelmas term 1340.  That would be a new addition for the
> Saint John account in Complete Peerage, Volume 11.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Doug,
Not to derail your thread on Ralph de Monthermer, but...
I collected quite a bit of information on the Achard family a couple
of years ago and I do not recall ever running across a St. John. The
Achard lands can be traced to a grant by Henry I to his teacher
(magister) Robert Achard of 5 manors namely Aldermaneston
(Aldermaston), Finchampstede (Finchampstead), Colsthorpe (Coldrop),
Speresholt (Sparsholt) and Cewehlewe (Challow). They were ever after
in IPMs etc. found to be held of the King in chief. I don’t think
there is any way Alice could have had a dower interest in Aldermaston,
she would have to have been the wife of Robert Achard who died in 1298
at the age of 48.

The Robert de Achard in question was actually Robert de Colehull or
Coleshill, the son of Elias de Coleshill and Margaret Achard, but
assumed the name Achard after receiving the inheritance of his uncle
Robert Achard (d. sh. bef. 4 Oct. 1298). He married 1st Joan who was
living 25 July 1336 but dead by 8 May 1337; she would be the mother of
his children. He married 2nd Agnes de Coudray by 1345, daughter of
Fulk de Coudray. He died 19 September 1353. Agnes d.s.p. 10 April
1359. His son and heir Peter d.s.p. 29 October 1361.

The eventual heir of the Achard lands was Robert’s grandson, Thomas de
la Mare, son of Peter de la Mare and Joan Achard. (To correct a
frequent error, it should be noted that Joan Achard was the second
wife of Peter de la Mare (d. 1349) and not the mother of his son and
heir, Robert de la Mare)

IPM of grandfather Peter Achard http://tinyurl.com/2eehrb9
http://tinyurl.com/36vslod
IPM of uncle Robert Achard http://tinyurl.com/2dfdcda
IPM of Robert Achard http://tinyurl.com/2axmg48 http://tinyurl.com/345v45a
IPM of wife Agnes Achard http://tinyurl.com/383t4gf
IPM of son Peter Achard http://tinyurl.com/7hqlel6


Joe

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Matt ~

Thank you so much for posting the transcript and English translation
of the "original record" of the lawsuit dated Michaelmas 1340 between
Sir Reynold de Paveley and Alice, his wife, and Robert Achard. I
looked for the law suit last night for over an hour, but I had trouble
converting the citation in the Year Books [Placito de Banco,
Michaelmas, 14 Edward III, Ro. 165 d.] to an image in the the filmed
documents available online on Professor Robert Palmer's The Anglo-
American Legal Tradition website. It appears you were more
successful.

Yesterday while I was studying the information on the lawsuit
published in the Year Books volume, I couldn't believe that the editor
was right that the original lawsuit stated that Alice, wife of Ralph
de Paveley, had earlier been the wife of Ralph de Monthermer. You
have now confirmed that my hunch was correct. But the surprise is
that the original lawsuit states that Alice was formerly the wife of
Sir John de Knoville.

So the Year Books erred in their statement about Alice having been
married to Ralph de Monthermer, and that error in turn lead Complete
Peerage to create a fictitious bastard son, Ralph de Monthermer, for
Sir Ralph de Monthermer, Earl of Gloucester and Hertford, who they
claimed was married to Alice. Weird, eh? So the bastard son can now
be safely dumped in the garbage pan.

Rummaging around briefly this morning, I determined that Alice
actually had four husbands in all. She was apparently born Alice
Wallis, daughter of Sir John Wallis. She married (1st) William
Basset, of Tehidy, Cornwall, who died 33 Edward I [i.e., 1304-5]. See
Vivian, Vis. of Cornwall (1887): 17 (Basset ped.), which is available
at this weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=t0U7AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA17

Alice married (2nd) before 17 Jan. 1309 (date of pardon for marrying
without license) to Sir John de Knoville, Knt. See Calendar of
Patent Rolls, 1307-1313 (1894), pg. 150, available at the following
weblink:

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e2v1/body/Edward2vol1page0150.pdf

I note that two fines were recorded in 1297 between John ap Adam and
Elizabeth his wife and John de Knoville. The effect of these two
fines was settle the manors of Beverstone, Purton, and Redwick,
Gloucestershire, East Harptree and Barrow Gurney, Somerset, and others
on the said John ap Adam and Elizabeth his wife and their heirs. See
Complete Peerage, 1 (1910): 179 (sub Ap Adam).

I assume John de Knoville named in these two fines was near related to
John ap Adam, as Complete Peerage shows that John ap Adam's mother was
Joan de Knoville. I also assume he is the same person as the second
husband of Alice Wallis.

John ap Adam died in 1311, when custody of the lands of John ap Adam
and Elizabeth his wife was granted to Ralph de Monthermer for 6000
marks. This would be Ralph de Monthermer, former Earl of Gloucester
and Hertford. John ap Adam's son and heir, Thomas, didn't have livery
of his lands until July 1325. As such, Ralph de Monthermer would have
had possession of Beverstone Castle, Gloucestershire from 1311 until
his death in May 1325, during the minority of the ap Adam heir.

This in turn explains why the bond signed by Robert Achard in favor of
Alice de Knoville and Ralph de Monthermer was signed in 1319 at
Beverstone, Gloucestershire.

Elsewhere I see that Sir John ap Adam and Sir John de Knoville were
witnesses for a deed executed by Sir John Bluet in 1297. See Morgan
and Wakeman, Notices of Pencoyd Castle and Langstone (1864): 28-32.
The is the same Sir John Bluet, of Lackham, Wiltshiire (died c.1317),
who was the "cousin and bachelor" of Sir Ralph de Monthermer, Earl of
Gloucester and Hertford, in Scotland in 1298.

John de Knoville died c.1317, holding lands in Wales, as indicated by
information found in Bean, Decline of English Feudalism, 1215-1540
(1968): 99. This information may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=rHu7AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA99

If John ap Adam (whose mother was a Knoville) and John de Knoville
were related to Sir John Bluet, they might in turn all have been
related to Sir Ralph de Monthermer. If so, this would explain why
Ralph de Monthermer was involved with John de Knoville's widow, Alice,
in 1319.

As for Alice Wallis, I find that she married (3rd) Sir John de Saint

John, 1st Lord Saint John of Basing, who died shortly before 4 April

1329, and (4th) by license dated 22 June 1333 (as his 2nd wife) Sir
Reynold de Paveley.

Lastly, I've copied below an undated charter from the A2A Catalogue
for Sir Ralph de Monthermer, which charter I note was witnessed by
Gilbert de Knoville and John de Knoville, Knights.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +

Northamptonshire Record Office, Fitzwilliam (Milton) Charters

Folder icon [no title] F(M) Charter/1666 Late C13th-early C14th

Contents:

GRANT by John de Ryvers, Knt. Lord of Aungre, to Dom. Ralph de Monte
Hermeri, of all his manor of Langan, Cornwall, with all woods mills,
meadows, pastures, commons, ways, waters, dovecotes, Knights' fees,
advowsons, villeins, services, etc. together with all right to the
chantry of a free chapel in the said manor, and all other
appurtenances of the same.
Witn. Dom. William de Botereaws; Dom. Henry de Caumbernoun., Thomas le
Ercedekne, Henry de Boteringham, Serlo de Lanladeroun, Gilbert de
Knoville, and John de Knoville, Knts.; Thomas de la Hyde, seneschal of
Cornwall; John de Ruskamer; Benedict de Roskcroke; Andrew de Penkoyt;
etc.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

In my earlier post today, I said "So the bastard son can now be safely

dumped in the garbage pan."

I meant to say "So the bastard son can now be safely dumped in the
garbage can."

DR

[Wjhonson]

Thrown on the garbage cart.
Or thrown on the garbage heap.
Speaking of the century in question

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2011 12:06 pm
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Ralph de Monthermer, the fictitious bastard son of Ralph de Monthermer, Earl of Gloucester & Hertford [died 1325]


Dear Newsgroup ~
In my earlier post today, I said "So the bastard son can now be safely

umped in the garbage pan."
I meant to say "So the bastard son can now be safely dumped in the

arbage can."
DR

------------------------------

o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com

ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of

he message

[Joe]

> I note that two fines were recorded in 1297 between John ap Adam and
> Elizabeth his wife and John de Knoville.  The effect of these two
> fines was settle the manors of Beverstone, Purton, and Redwick,
> Gloucestershire, East Harptree and Barrow Gurney, Somerset, and others
> on the said John ap Adam and Elizabeth his wife and their heirs.  See
> Complete Peerage, 1 (1910): 179 (sub Ap Adam).
>
> I assume John de Knoville named in these two fines was near related to
> John ap Adam, as Complete Peerage shows that John ap Adam's mother was
> Joan de Knoville.  I also assume he is the same person as the second
> husband of Alice Wallis.
>

So is this John ap Adam actually John de Badeham?
And Elizabeth actually Elizabeth de Gournai?

http://tinyurl.com/7r3q9qe
http://tinyurl.com/74yvfqs
http://tinyurl.com/88b3wb7


Joe

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

I find searching through Google that there is a published inquisition
post mortem which mentions Margaret de Hydon (died 1357), widow
successively of Josce de Dinham, Knt. (died 1`301), Sir Gilbert de
Knoville, Knt. (died 1314), and Peter de Uvedale, Knt., Lord Uvedale
(died 1336).

According to what I can see of the snippet view of this item,
"Margaret, late the wife of Gilbert de Knoville," was holding property
for life in Devon "of the said Alice, John Dun and Thomas Achard,
kinsmen and heirs of the said Gilbert."

Given that Gilbert de Knoville had a kinsman and heir named Thomas
Achard, it seems possible to me that this could explain the connection
in 1319 between Robert Achard and Alice, widow of John de Knoville,
Knt. My guess is that John de Knoville, Knt. was the son and heir of
Gilbert de Knoville, Knt. Also that John de Knoville and his wife,
Alice Wallis, had a daughter who was married to Peter Achard, son and
heir of Robert Achard. The bond that Robert Achard signed in 1319 was
to guarantee that he would no alienate certain manors so that they
would pass to Peter Achard, who I presume was married to Alice de
Knoville's daughter.

Perhaps someone who is knowledgeable about the Achard family can tell
us the place of Thomas Achard in the Achard family tree. I note that
Thomas Achard was living in 1358, when he proved his age.

[Douglas Richardson]

On Dec 2, 1:27 pm, Joe <coch...@gmail.com> wrote:

< So is this John ap Adam actually John de Badeham?
< And Elizabeth actually Elizabeth de Gournai?
<
< http://tinyurl.com/7r3q9qehttp://tinyurl.com/74yvfqshttp://tinyurl.com/88b3wb7
<
< Joe

Yes John de Badeham is the same person as Sir John ap Adam. His wife
was Elizabeth de Gournay.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

The following two items are taken from the A2A Catalogue.

The first item is dated 1400 and it appears to concern various heirs
of Sir John de Knoville (died c.1317). The property involves various
messuages, lands, etc., in Mathenni, Monmouthshire, which may have
originally belonged to the Knoville family.

I note that Thomas Achard is not mentioned in this document.

The second item below refers to disputes in the early fifteenth
century involving the heirs of Cecily, daughter of Sir John de Knovill

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + +

Cornwall Record Office
Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice

AR/1/708 1400, Monday 28th Dec

Administrative history:
Cf. AR/41/10. Philip Byenham was co-heir, with Sir John Arundell
knight (through his mother Joan Luscott, wife of John Arundell IV) and
Lucy Duyn, of Cecily daughter of Sir John de Knovill: see AR/17/170,
and Cal.Ipms. XI, no. 274, and XII, no. 178.

Contents:
(Monday after Christmas, 2 Hen IV); at Mathenny
Gift
Philip Bienham de Edmundesthrop = (1) John Arundell, knight, 'de
Cornubia' = (2)
(1) to (2), all his messuages, lands, tenements, reversions, rents and
services in the manor of Mathenny 'infra feodum de Uske'; for (2) and
his heirs to hold for ever of the chief lords of the fee, by services
due and accustomed. Warranty.
Thomas Rede, steward of Uske, John ap Wilcok, John Pieres, Robert ap
Adam, Maurice (Moric') ap Meyryk.
Seal of (1) [good, red, armorial; different from that on AR/41/10],
showing 3 stars (mullets?) on a shield (Sigill'P...pi Bienham).
Edmundesthrop [= Edmundthorpe, Leicestershire?] Mathenny [= Mathenni,
Monmouthshire]

+ + + + + + + + + +

Cornwall Record Office
Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice

AR/17 [n.d.]

These documents are held at Cornwall Record Office

Arrangement: The bonds for arbitration and releases from legal actions
are arranged in chronological order (AR/17/63-69). Legal disputes for
which several documents survive have been arranged under the heading
Legal Cases (AR/17/70-225). Other legal records come in the General
section (AR/17/1-62).


Contents:
Most of the legal cases in which the Arundells were involved were
disputes over property rights See also AR/15 for disputes over right
of wreck.
AR/17/70-73 Disputes in the early fifteenth century involving the
heirs of Cecily, daughter of Sir John de Knovill.

[Doug]

That is what i assumed in terms of marriages, not at books at the
moment.


Doug Smith

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Below are some items taken from the National Archives catalogue.

The first item below is a record of a bond dated 12 Edward II [i.e.,
1318-19] by Robert Achard, Knt., to Alice de Knoville, widow of John
de Knoville. As I suspected, this bond concerns the marriage of
Alice's daughters, one of whom, Cecily, was married to Robert Achard's
son and heir, Peter Achard. This is presumably the bond signed at
Beverstone, Gloucestershire named in the 1340 lawsuit between Robert
Achard and Reynold de Paveley and his wife, Alice.

The second item lists the daughters and heirs of John de Knoville in
1329-30, including Cecily, wife of Peter "Acard." I presume Cecily
was the mother of Thomas Achard, born c.1337, living 1358.

The items which follow below are references to inquisitions post
mortem for Gilbert de Knoville, John de Knoville, and Alice, widow of
John de Knoville, and a proof of age in 1358 for Thomas Achard,
"kinsman and heir of John de Knoville."

I assume that Alice, widow of John de Knoville, died either in 20
Edward III [1346-7] or 28 Edward III [1354-5].

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + +

1. E 210/8914

Scope and content

Bond, indented, by Robert Achard, knight, to Alice de Knovil, late the
wife of John de Knovill, to satisfy any claims of the King, or Maud,
Countess of Gloucester, in respect of the marriages of her daughters.
Covering dates 12 Edw. II.
Held by
The National Archives, Kew

+ + + + + + + + +

C 135/20/7

Scope and content
Cecily the wife of Peter Acard, Eleanor the wife of John de Duyn, and
Amy the wife of Thomas the Ercedekne, daughters and heirs of John de
Knovyle: Gloucestershire (proof of age)
Covering dates 3 Edward III [1329-30]

+ + + + + + + + +

C 134/32/7 Gilbert de Knovill alias de Knovyle: Devon, Somerset,
Herefordshire 7 Edw II
C 134/53/16 John de Knovil alias de Knoville: Devon, Cornwall,
Somerset, Monmouthshire, Marches of Wales 10 Edw II
C 134/64/2 John de Knovill: Gloucestershire 13 Edw II
C 135/81/18 Alice de Knovill: Devon 20 Edward III
C 135/127/11 Alice, late the wife of John de Knovill: Gloucestershire
and the Adjacent March of Wales 28 Edw III
C 135/141/4 Thomas Achard, kinsman and one of the heirs of John de
Knovill: Somerset (proof of age)

[Joe]

Peter Achard of Aldermaston, son of Robert Achard, was born c1313 and
died 29 October 1361. He had been married to an Elizabeth who
predeased him. His heir by right was his cousin Richard de Coleshill,
but his property went to his nephew Thomas de la Mare due to a
previously made fine.

I find a writ for your Thomas Achard on 12 July 1360 and on 30 March
1361. He was apparently born Dec. 1337. It seems possible if not
likely he is the son of Peter Achard and Elizabeth but died in the
lifetime of his father.

See CFR VII pages 37, 132, 194, 238
http://tinyurl.com/25xpjm2


Joe

[Douglas Richardson]

On Dec 2, 4:18 pm, Joe <coch...@gmail.com> wrote:

< Peter Achard of Aldermaston, son of Robert Achard,  was born c1313
and
< died 29 October 1361.  He had been married to an Elizabeth who
< predeased him.  His heir by right was his cousin Richard de
Coleshill,
< but his property went to his nephew Thomas de la Mare due to a
< previously made fine.
<
< I find a writ for your Thomas Achard on 12 July 1360 and on 30 March
< 1361.  He was apparently born Dec. 1337.  It seems possible if not
< likely he is the son of Peter Achard and Elizabeth but died in the
< lifetime of his father.
<
< See CFR VII pages 37, 132, 194, 238
<  http://tinyurl.com/25xpjm2
<
< Joe

Thomas Achard, died 1360, was the son and heir apparent of Peter
Achard, died 1361, and his 1st wife, Cecily, daughter and co-heiress
of Sir John de Knoville, died c.1317, by his wife, Alice Wallis.
Peter Achard, died 1361, had no issue by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth.

Peter Achard in turn was the son and heir of Sir Robert Achard, of
Aldermaston, Berkshire, died 1353, by his 1st wife, Joan. Sir Robert
Achard is the person sued for a debt in 1340 by Alice (Wallis)
(Basset) (Knoville) Saint John, and her 4th husband, Sir Reynold de
Paveley.

DR

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Sir Ralph de Monthermer's association with Beverston, Gloucestershire
is further indicated by the following information found in Woolgar,The
Great Household in late medieval England (1999): 27:

"The minstrels of Sir Ralph de Monthermer went away from Beverston
with Sir John Mauduyt to the celebration of Walter de Langford, c.
1312-14, for which they were paid 6s. 8d. Three minstrels of Sir
Ralph, with their three horses, also visited the household of Hugh
Audley the Younger on 4 and 5 May 1320." END OF QUOTE

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

The following record is published in Calendar of Close Rolls, 1279–
1288 (1902): pg. 356. The record shows another association in the
records between the Knoville and Bluet families.

"Bogo de Knovyll, Ralph Bluet, Gilbert de Knovil, Walter de Fanacurt,
Walter de Everle, Roger de Akeny, and John de Wyntreshull acknowledge
that they owe to William de Valencia 100 marks; to be levied, in
default of payment, of their lands and chattels in cos. Salop,
Gloucester, Somerset, Devon, and Southampton." END OF QUOTE.

Gilbert de Knoville named in this record was the father of Sir John de
Knoville, Knt., who was the second husband of Alice (Wallis) Basset.

[Doug]

It is also interesting that Bogo (or Bewes) de Knoville and Gilbert de
Knoville are in the record.
They are roughly contemporary. It is possible that they were
brothers.

Doug Smith

[Douglas Richardson]

On Dec 4, 2:39 pm, Doug <al...@mindspring.com> wrote:

< It is also interesting that Bogo (or Bewes) de Knoville and Gilbert
de
< Knoville are in the record.
< They are roughly contemporary.  It is possible that they were
< brothers.
<
< Doug Smith

Bogo is the Latin form for Boges, Boeghes, Beges. I copied the name
Bogo just as it appears in the Close Rolls item. However, the form
Bogo should be avoided. For some reason, Complete Peerage uses the
form, Bewes.

My guess is that Boges de Knoville and Gilbert de Knoville were
brothers. I say that because it appears that the descendants of Boges
de Knoville and Gilbert de Knoville both had interests at Matherne,
Monmouthshire, which I assume they held under the Earls of Pembroke

Complete Peerage 7 (1929): 345 (sub Knovill) addresses the matter of
Boges de Knoville's ancestry. The editor states that "nothing seems
to be known" of the parentage of Boges de Knoville, living 1285.
However, the editor supposes that Boges de Knoville was a descendant
of an earlier "Bewes" de Knoville who held of the Honour of Striguil
when that Honor passed from the Marshals to the Bigods. That would
have taken place c.1245. That seems to be a good assumption.

I suspect Ralph de Monthermer's ancestors may also have held under the
Earls of Pembroke. If so, then his ancestor's name in some form may
appear on the various lists of tenants of the Earldom of Pembroke
which occur before 1300. I believe the Bluets also held under the
Earl of Pembroke.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

I note there is a biography of Sir Ralph de Monthermer, Earl of
Gloucester and Hertford, died 1325, published in Dictionary of
National Biography, 38 (1894): 326-327. See the following weblink for
that source:

http://books.google.com/books?id=dcocAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA326

No parentage is provided for Sir Ralph de Monthermer by the D.N.B.
The editor merely notes that Ralph de Monthermer "is obscurely
mentioned in the 'Annales Londonienses' as Comes Gloucestriae, J.
Bastard qui dicitur, Radulfus Heanmer' (Chron. Edward I and II, i.
132)."

I presume the implication that the editor somehow wished to make is
that Ralph de Monthermer was a bastard.

Dodd and Musson, eds., Reign of Edward II: New Perspectives (2006):
15, footnote 53 includes the same strange reference. But they add
that Complete Peerage, IX, 140, "suggests that he [Ralph] may have
been the grandson of William de Meisnilhermer of Tunstal."

As far as I know there is no evidence that Ralph de Monthermer was a
bastard, nor that he was the grandson of William de Meisnilhermer, of
Tunstal.

Here is what the Annales Londienses actually says regarding the death
and burial of John de Warenne, Earl of Surrey, in 1304, as published
in Stubbs, Chronicles of the Reigns of Edward I & Edward II 1 (Rolls
Ser.) (1882): 133:

Eodem anno [A.D. 1304], circiter festum Exaltationis Sanctae Crucis,
obiit comes Warenniae apud Newentone; et ibi corpus suum et ossa
requiescebant usque in crastinum Sancti Andreae proximo sequentis; in
ecclesia Sancti Pancratii Lewensi fuit sepultus; archiepiscopus
Cantuariensis celebravit missam et fecit officium pro defuncto. Comes
Gloucestriœ, J. Bastard qui dicitur, Radulfus Heanmer, comes de
Warewyk et dominus Hugo de Veer, Henricus de Percy, cum eorum
militibus interfuerunt." END OF QUOTE.

The above text may be viewed at the following text:

http://books.google.com/books?id=GlvSAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA133

While it is true that Ralph de Monthemer, then Earl of Gloucester,
attended the funeral of Earl John de Warenne, in 1304, he obviously
was not the same person as the next two individuals named in this
record, either J. the bastard or Ralph Heanmer. "J. the bastard" can
be readily identified as Earl John de Warenne's own bastard son,
namely [Master] John de Warenne, Vicar of Dewsbury, York, Rector of
Dorking, Surrey and Fishlake, Yorkshire, Prebendary of Thockrington,
who was living as late as 1330.

That two historical works should make this same error highlights why
is is important to refer to the original texts, and not reply
exclusively on secondary sources.

[John]

On Dec 4, 2:58 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> I note there is a biography of Sir Ralph de Monthermer, Earl of
> Gloucester and Hertford, died 1325, published in Dictionary of
> National Biography, 38 (1894): 326-327.  See the following weblink for
> that source:
>
>    http://books.google.com/books?id=dcocAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA326
>
> No parentage is provided for Sir Ralph de Monthermer by the D.N.B.
> The editor merely notes that Ralph de Monthermer "is obscurely
> mentioned in the 'Annales Londonienses' as Comes Gloucestriae, J.
> Bastard qui dicitur, Radulfus Heanmer' (Chron. Edward I and II, i.
> 132)."
>
> I presume the implication that the editor somehow wished to make is
> that Ralph de Monthermer was a bastard.

[snip]

>
> That two historical works should make this same error highlights why
> is is important to refer to the original texts, and not reply
> exclusively on secondary sources.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Mr. Richardson may have a point in preaching that "it is important to
refer to the original texts". But he also should take more care
himself to use the CURRENT versions of historical works, rather than
one published in 1894.

In this case the ODNB, the updated version of the old DNB, has this to
say at the beginning of its article on Ralph de Montermer:

"Monthermer, Ralph de, first Lord Monthermer (d. 1325), soldier and
courtier, and for several years earl of Gloucester and Hertford, is
said to have been born in the bishopric of Durham, but his parentage
is unknown."

Note that there is no reference to Monthermer possibly being a
bastard, or to the source which the old DNB cited.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

While I was reviewing my file notes on Sir Ralph de Monthermer's
cousin and bachelor, Sir John Bluet, died c.1317 [Gen. 6 below], I
came across a descent I worked out some time ago for Sir John Bluet
from the Ur-Mother of the newsgroup, Isabel de Vermandois.

The line below goes down to the New World immigrant, John Baynard,
Gentleman, of Talbot County, Maryland, died 1704.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + +

1. Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois, married Robert de Beaumont,
Count of Meulan.
2. Isabel de Beaumont, living c.1172, married (1st) Gilbert Fitz
Gilbert (de Clare), Earl of Pembroke, died 1147/8; (2nd) Ralph Bluet,
Knt., of of Silchester, Hampshire and Lacock, Wiltshire, living c.
1167.
3. Ralph Bluet, Knt.,of Silchester, Hampshire, Daglingworth,
Gloucestershire, and Lackham, Wiltshire, died c.1196–9, married Nest
of Wales, living 1201, daughter of Iorwerth ab Owain, lord of
Caerleon, Monmouthshire.
4. Ralph Bluet, of Lackham, Wiltshire, and Daglingworth,
Gloucestershire, living 1236, married Eve.
5. William Bluet, of Lackham, Wiltshire, living 1282, married
Margaret.
6. John Bluet, Knt., of Lackham,Wiltshire, died c.1317, married (2nd)
Eleanor, widow of William de Brianzon.
7. Eleanor Bluet, living 1341, married Edmund Baynard, of Lackham,
Wiltshire.
8. Philip Baynard, of Lackham, Wiltshire, died 1415.
9. Robert Baynard, of Lackham, Wiltshire, died 1438, married Joyce.
10. Philip Baynard, of Lackham, Wiltshire, married Margaret.
11. Robert Baynard, Esq., of Lackham and Hilmarton, Wiltshire, died
1501, married Elizabeth Ludlow.
12. Philip Baynard, Esq., of Lackham, Wiltshire, died 1522, married
Joan Stukeley.
13. Robert Baynard, Esq., of Lackham, Wiltshire, died 1537,married
Anne Blake.
14. Thomas Baynard, Esq., of Barton Hundred, Gloucestershire and
Wanstrow, Somerset, married Elizabeth Barnes.
15. Henry Baynard, Gent., of Blagdon, Somerset, married Anne Hobbes.
16. Thomas Baynard, Gent., of Blagdon, Somerset, died 1652, married
Martha Prickman.
17. Thomas Baynard, Esq., of Blagdon, Somerset, died 1691, married
(1st) Mary Bennett.
18. John Baynard, Gent., of Talbot County, Maryland, died 1704,
married Elizabeth Blackwell.

[Doug]

Wrottesley shows two generations between your 5. and 6. fwiw

TG, new series, XX, London, ed. H. W. Forsyth Harwood, (1904), George
Wrottesley, Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls, pps 97-98 De Banco. Mich.
22. Ed. 4. m. 615.

5. Sir William
Ralph
Robert
6. John Bluet
Eleanor m. Baynard


Doug Smith

[Doug]

Of course that is the descent of the property, and given the
chronology your descent makes sense.


Doug Smith

[Douglas Richardson]

On Dec 5, 2:57 pm, Doug <al...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > Wrottesley shows two generations between your 5. and 6.  fwiw
>
> > TG, new series, XX, London, ed. H. W. Forsyth Harwood, (1904), George
> > Wrottesley, Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls, pps 97-98  De Banco. Mich.
> > 22. Ed. 4. m. 615.
>
> > 5. Sir William
> > Ralph
> > Robert
> > 6. John Bluet
> > Eleanor m.  Baynard
>
> > Doug Smith
>
> Of course that is the descent of the property, and given the
> chronology your descent makes sense.
>
> Doug Smith

I'm aware of the pleading you've cited, but I think it's mistaken. As
we saw last week with the lawsuit concerning Reynold de Paveley and
his wife, Alice, transcription errors do take place. And just
yesterday I found two Knoville pedigrees in Wrottesley which don't
agree with one another. In that case, the fault might be
Wrottesley's, or the original pleadings themselves. As for Mr.
Wrottesley, I have a high opinion of his work.

For starters, I recommend you pull up the original lawsuit involving
the Bluet-Baynard family descent. The original lawsuit is available
on Robert Palmer's website. The lawsuit may or may not agree with Mr.
Wrottesley's published pedigree.

As I recall, the Bluet and Baynard families are ancestral to both
Prince Charles and his former wife, Princess Diana. As such, the line
of descent I set forth for Sir John Bluet should add new descents from
Isabel de Vermandois for their two children.

[John]

On Dec 5, 4:38 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:

>
> As I recall, the Bluet and Baynard families are ancestral to both
> Prince Charles and his former wife, Princess Diana.  As such, the line
> of descent I set forth for Sir John Bluet should add new descents from
> Isabel de Vermandois for their two children.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

The family of Baynard of Lackham is ancestral to Princess Diana -
specifically the Baynards in generations 7 to 13 of the original
post. I don't believe, however, that they are ancestral to Prince
Charles - at least within the range presented in the original post.
If they are, they've been overlooked by (among others) Paget's work on
the ancestry of Prince Charles.

In a separate post, Leo has raised a doubt about the Beaumont/Bluet
marriage in generation 2, noting that it contradicts both ESNF and CP
with respect to the 2nd marriage. It would be helpful to see what
evidence there is for this Bluet Beaumont marriage, as well as for the
Bluet descent to Baynard.

[Matt Tompkins]

> Doug <al...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > > Wrottesley shows two generations between your 5. and 6.  fwiw
>
> > > TG, new series, XX, London, ed. H. W. Forsyth Harwood, (1904), George
> > > Wrottesley, Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls, pps 97-98  De Banco. Mich.
> > > 22. Ed. 4. m. 615.
>
> > > 5. Sir William
> > > Ralph
> > > Robert
> > > 6. John Bluet
> > > Eleanor m.  Baynard
>
> > > Doug Smith
>
> > Of course that is the descent of the property, and given the
> > chronology your descent makes sense.
>
> > Doug Smith

On Dec 6, 12:38 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> I'm aware of the pleading you've cited, but I think it's mistaken.  As
> we saw last week with the lawsuit concerning Reynold de Paveley and
> his wife, Alice, transcription errors do take place.  And just
> yesterday I found two Knoville pedigrees in Wrottesley which don't
> agree with one another.  In that case, the fault might be
> Wrottesley's, or the original pleadings themselves.  As for Mr.
> Wrottesley, I have a high opinion of his work.
>
> For starters, I recommend you pull up the original lawsuit involving
> the Bluet-Baynard family descent.  The original lawsuit is available
> on Robert Palmer's website.  The lawsuit may or may not agree with Mr.
> Wrottesley's published pedigree.
>
> As I recall, the Bluet and Baynard families are ancestral to both
> Prince Charles and his former wife, Princess Diana.  As such, the line
> of descent I set forth for Sir John Bluet should add new descents from
> Isabel de Vermandois for their two children.

The original Common Pleas roll entry (CP 40/882, m. 615) can be found
in the Anglo-American Legal Tradition website here:

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/E4/CP40no882/aCP40no882fronts/IMG_1168.htm
and
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/E4/CP40no882/aCP40no882fronts/IMG_1169.htm
and, on the dorse side of the membrane,
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/E4/CP40no882/bCP40no882dorses/IMG_2362.htm

The descent from Sir William Bluet to John Bluet is as Wrottesley had
it - John was son of Robert, son of Ralph, son of Sir William (it can
be seen near the bottom of the first image - Front 1168 - just to the
left of the yellow label).

Wrottesley did get one thing wrong, though - he said (and his error
has been repeated by others) that 'the pleadings state that Richard
Wyke formerly held the manor [sc. of Charlaweswyke] of William
Mareschal, earl of Pembroke, as of his manor of Kakham, and had
granted it to one William Bluet, kt.'.

In fact they say that Richard Wyke held a messuage and two carucates
of land at Charlaweswyke as of the earl's manor of Kakham, and that
the earl granted the manor of Lakham to Sir William Bluet (Lackham is
mispellt Kakham the first time it is mentioned, but later appears more
correctly as Lakham - Charlaweswyke is Wick farm, southwest of
Lacock).

Matt Tompkins

[Douglas Richardson]

Once again, Matt, we are in your debt. I see the statement in the
pleadings that Sir John Bluet was the son of Robert, who was the son
of Ralph, who was the son of Sir William Bluet.

For preparation of Sir John Bluet's line of descent from Isabel de
Vermandois, however, I used the Bluet material by Tony Pratt and Karen
Repko updated in 2009 found at the following weblink:

http://www.lackham.co.uk/history/the_bluets_09.pdf

Tony and Karen found that Sir John Bluet was Sir William Bluet's
successor at Lackham, Wiltshire. So far, so good. Sir William Bluet
occurs between 1264 and 1282, and Sir John Bluet first appears in
1287. On the surface, this would seem to be the normal chronology
between a father and son, especially since Sir William Bluet was
making arrangements for the marriage of his daughter, Emmeline, in
1282.

However, Tony and Karen suppose that Sir William Bluet had two wives.
If so, Sir William Bluet's daughter, Emmeline, might have been born
many years after the birth of his son and heir. If so, it is possible
that Sir William Bluet's first marriage might have occurred many years
previous to 1282. Be that as it may, it seems difficult to shoehorn
two generations between Sir William Bluet and Sir John Bluet, unless
the generations were extremely short.

I think it is safe to assume that Sir John Bluet was born in or before
1270. If Sir William Bluet is his great-grandfather, then Sir William
would normally be born no later than 1195. If true, it seems
virtually impossible that Sir William Bluet was arranging for the
marriage of a daughter in 1282.

If it could be shown that Sir John Bluet was born later than 1270,
this might help inserting the extra two generations in the Bluet
pedigree. However, Tony and Karen indicate that Sir John Bluet occurs
in 1287, 1290, 1293, etc. As such I don't see how it is possible that
Sir John Bluet could have been born later than 1270.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

On Dec 6, 4:54 am, Matt Tompkins <ml...@le.ac.uk> wrote:

< The original Common Pleas roll entry (CP 40/882, m. 615) can be
found
< in the Anglo-American Legal Tradition website here:
<
< http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/E4/CP40no882/aCP40no882fronts/IMG_1168.htm

< andhttp://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/E4/CP40no882/aCP40no882fronts/IMG_1169.htm
> and, on the dorse side of the membrane,http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/E4/CP40no882/bCP40no882dorses/IMG_2362.htm

<
< The descent from Sir William Bluet to John Bluet is as Wrottesley
had
< it - John was son of Robert, son of Ralph, son of Sir William (it
can
< be seen near the bottom of the first image - Front 1168 - just to
the
< left of the yellow label).
<

< Matt Tompkins

[Janet Wolfe]

Could John Bluet, bachelor and cousin of Ralph de Monthermer in the early
1300s, have been a different and younger man than the John Bluet who
appeared in military records as early as 1287 and had a wife Margery in the
first decade of the 1300s? How clear is the evidence that all of the John
Bluet records apply to one man? The bachelor reference cited at the
beginning of this thread seems odd for a man married to Margery at about the
same time, if bachelor meant unmarried. What is the date of the first
reference to Margery? The John Bluet named in the 1287 P.R. record
(http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e1v2/body/Edward1vol2page0274.pdf) is
named with a dozen other men "gone with the earl of Norfolk" on the king's
service into Wales. Are any of the other men in this list as young as 17?
(The list of men being given protection continues on this and the next page,
but it doesn't seem long enough to have included every young soldier in such
a mission.)

Free online dictionary says that bachelor meant "A young knight in the
service of another knight in feudal times." Would a man well over age 30
have been called a bachelor in this sense, married or not?

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[Douglas Richardson]

Janet ~

The term bachelor as used in the 1298 document refers to a knight who
follows the banner of another. It has nothing to do with his marital
status.

As for the identity of John Bluet who was "cousin and bacheler" to Sir
Ralph de Monthermer in 1298, as far as I know, there was only one Sir
John Bluet in this time period. That man was Sir John Bluet, of
Lackham, Wiltshire.

As we have seen in an earlier post, Sir Ralph de Monthermer later
requested the king permit Sir John Bluet, of Lackham, to marry
Eleanor, widow of William de Brianzon, if she was willing. The lady
was so willing and the marriage took place. Eleanor survived Sir John
Bluet and subsequently married (3rd) Sir John Peyton.

DR