Roger de Carminow and his wife Joan (de Dinham)
John Ravilious
Sunday, 18 April, 2004
Dear Ronnie, Mardi, et al.,
In a brief fossick for further Dinham details on the PRO, I came upon
the following entry (with notes). Despite the relative benefit of brevity,
I have included the entire entry for your reference.
" AR/35/1 - 2 Carminow
Reference: AR/35/1
Creation dates: 1309, Saturday 22nd Feb
Scope and Content
(Saturday St Peter's Chair, 2 Edw [II]); at Merthin
Agreement for assignment of dower
Oliver de Carmynou = (1)
Lady Joan who was wife of Roger de Carmynou, knight = (2)
Agreement between (1) and (2) for assignment of dower to (2) from
the manors of Carmynou, Wynienton, Trezeued, Merthin, Kenel,
Eglosros, Trelewith, Dysard, Resker and Hornicote, and the
advowsons of the churches of Wyteston, Eglosros, Sanctus Rumon
Maior and Sanctus Rumon Minor in Tyrhard.
(1) has assigned to (2) in name of dower the manors of Merthin and
Wynienton, the whole land of Kenel, and £7 worth (librate) of land
and rent in the manor of Eglosros, from the following tenements: of
Trelong' £4 4s, vill of Trenustel 38s, tenement of John Boya in
Penmene 10s, tenement of Alice de eadem 5s, tenement of John Batiz
de Eglosros 2s, tenement of John Jacke de Eglosros 12d; for the
advowsons of those churches he has assigned to her the advowson of
the church of Eglosros with the advowson of the church of Eglosros
[sic; read 'with appurtenances']. (2) shall hold all these of (1)
during her life in name of dower.
Seal [of (2)? Good, showing arms of Carminow (a bend, without the
label of three) and of Dinham (five lozenges); 'Sig... Carminno'].
Trezeued [= Tretheves, in Landewednack]
Trelewith [= Treloweth, in St Mewan]
Dysard [= Dizzard, St Gennys]
Resker [= Rosecare, in St Gennys]
Hornicate [= Hornacaott, in North Tamerton]
Wyteston [= Whitstone]
Eglosros [= Philleigh]
Sanctus Rumon Minor in Tyrhard [= Ruan Minor]
Carminno 1309 [seal]
Note
Note on date: the clause is 'Die Sabbati in festo Beati Petri in
Cathedra, anno regni Regis Edwardi secundo'; but 22nd Feb was not a
Saturday in 1274, whereas it was so in 1309, so Edward II must be
intended though not stated. In any case, Roger de Carminow died in
1308 (the writ for his Ipm. is dated 20th Dec 1308, and the
inquisition 16th Jan 1309; [George] Oliver, [Monasticon Dioecesis
Exoniensis] his son was then aged over 30). Joan de Carminow was
still alive in 1321, Feet of Fines 467; W.Worcs saw her obit in
Greyfriars, Bodmin, dated 1299 x 1329. The arms on the shield suggest
that Joan was a Dinham by birth, which seems not to be otherwise
known (though it is asserted, without authority, by J.P. Yeatman,
The Early Genealogical History of the House of Arundell, p. 257b)."[1]
From the foregoing and the apparent chronology provided therein, and by
Ronny Bodine in prior SGM posts [2], it would appear most likely that Joan,
wife of Roger de Carminow and mother of (A) Oliver de Carminow and (B) Joan
de Carminow, wife of William de Whalesborough, was a sibling of Sir Josce
de Dinham (fl. ca. 1273-1300) and a daughter of Sir Oliver de Dinham of
Hartland, Nutwell and Ilsington, Devon, Buckland Denham, Somerset and
Cardinham, Cornwall (d. 26 Feb 1298/9). This would add a bit to the
ancestry of the Carminow and Whalesborough families.
I'd be most interested in your insights and comments on the above.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES:
[1] PRO, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice
[AR/17 - AR/50], AR/35/1]
Note: the notation calling Oliver de Carminow "George Oliver,
Monasticon Dioecesis Exoniensis" [bracketed above] is a recurrent
transcription error in the Arundell files on the PRO.
[2] Ronny Bodine, <WHALESBOROUGH-WALESBREU OF CORNWALL>, SGM, 25 Feb 1999:
"4. Sir WILLIAM de WALESBRAUS. Born c1288. In 1302 William Bottreux
brought Writ of Wardship against Roger Carminow and demanded William,
the brother and heir of John de Whalesboro. Roger replied "William
whilst your ward married our daughter." Bottreux said, "William de
Whalesboro was only 5 years old then, and under 14 now" (Year Book of
Edward I, A.D. 1302). He was of age 21 Apr 1309 when Stephen de Bello
Prato died holding a 3 acre meadow of William de Whalesbreus in socage
and by service of rendering 1d. yearly (CIPM, 5: no. 122). On 11/13 Feb
1312, William de Whalesbrew granted to John de Carmynow the manor of
Udnow and the advowson of the Church of St. Piran for the life of the
said William (Trigg, 3: 51). Carminow presented to St. Perran-Uthno on
11 Dec 1312 (Reg. Bishop Stapledon, p. 257) and in Feb 1313 regranted
the manor and advowson back to William de Whalesbury and Johanna his
wife (Trigg, 3: 51). William presented to the church of St. Mawgan-in
-Kerrier on 25 Dec 1317 and 31 Oct 1324 (Reg. Bishop Stapledon, p. 255).
He died in 1328 and and is named by Risdon with his arms as "Willelmus
Whalisburgh de Whalesburgh, knight, Gules, three bandlets argent on a
bordure sable, nine bezants" (Notebook of Tristram Risdon, p. 211). As
a child of 5, he was married c1293 to Joan (Johanna), daughter of Sir
Roger de Carminow, who was Knight of the Shire for Cornwall in 1300 and
1302 and who died in 1308 leaving his son, Oliver, as his heir (Knights
of Edward I, 1: 183). In a fine of 10 May 1321, Joan, wife of William
de Walesbreu was called a sibling of Oliver de Carminow (Cornwall Feet
of Fines, no. 458). In another fine of 13 Oct 1333 she is called Joan,
who was the wife of William de Walesbreu (ibid., no. 528). As Joan,
relict of William de Whalesbreu, she presented to St. Mawnan-in-Kerrier
23 Feb 1347 and 6 Nov 1348, but apparently died soon after when Sir John
de Whalesbreu made the next presentation on 6 Aug 1349 (Reg. of Bishop
Grandisson, p. 1365, 1368, 1406). "
* John P. Ravilious
Mark Harry
wardship of his heir in 1277, according to James Whetter's "Cornwall
in the Thirteenth Century", page 151. Whetter goes on to name Joan,
wife of Roger junior, as being a Dinham, although it was not clear to
me at the time on what grounds. Thanks John for supplying these
details from the PRO records.
The marriage must have taken place by 1277 or else soon afterwards, as
Roger junior presented to Whitstone after 1280, sued for the return of
lands in Dysart in 1283 and was amerced for not taking up knighthood
in 1284 despite holding a knight's fee and also being of full age.
One thing that is still a bit unclear to me is which Oliver de Dinham
would qualify as Joan's father. Galfrid de Dinham was succeeded by his
son Oliver, aged 24 in 1258. Risdon has not tone but two consecutive
Olivers in succession to Galfrid, and I think he is correct in this.
The reason is that Mary, daughter of Hugh de Courtenay of Headington
in Somerset was the widow of an Oliver de Dinham in 1279, and holding
lands in dower in that year, yet in 1276 an Oliver de Dinham was the
husband of Isabella, widow of John de Courtenay of Okehampton and
daughter of Hugh de Vere, 4th earl of Oxford. This Oliver had free
warren in Cornwall, Somerset and Dorset in 1280-85, and was dead in
1298, being succeeded by his son Josce, then aged 24. See Risdon's
"Notebook", pages 76-77 and footnotes therein.
It is difficult just on the above dates to say which of these Olivers
was the father-in-law of Roger Carminow, but I tend towards Oliver
senior. John de Courtenay, first husband of Isabella, died in 1274 and
Oliver (II)'s son Josce was born, on the above information, around
about the same year. Hence, any sister of Josce's would have been too
young to have married Roger and borne him a son Oliver Carminow no
later than 1277/8, given that when Roger (II) died in 1308 his son and
heir Oliver de Carminow was 30 years old according to the
IPM.(Maclean, "Trigg Minor", vol iii p 61)
Mark
The...@aol.com
Dear Mark,
Thanks for both your kind words, and the added information (and
query).
The placement of this 'other' Oliver de Dinham is an interesting
question: I am not (or was not) aware of the Oliver (d. bef 1280)
who was married to a Mary de Courtenay, but am quite intrigued. I
would agree that, even with this 'other' Oliver, that the 'older'
Oliver (husband of Isabel de Vere, fl. 1234-1298/9) must be the
father of Joan de Dinham, wife of Roger de Carminow:
1. The chronology itself presents a problem, but
most significantly,
2. Josce de Dinham (fl. 1274-1300/1) was the son and
heir of the elder Oliver. If there was an elder son
Oliver (the husband of Mary de Courtenay) who had
predeceased his father ca. 1279 or before, any issue
of that elder son would have been the heir of the
older Oliver. Since we know Joan (de Dinham) de
Carminow had surviving issue, and the Dinham estate
was quite significant, Josce de Dinham would not have
succeeded quietly to his father's lands without being
the legitimate heir.
I would presume, given the facts you have put forward, that the
'younger' Oliver was the son and heir of the 'elder', by an unknown
first wife, but that he died with legitimate surviving issue (ca.
1279 or before), leaving the succession to Josce, son by an
(evident) 2nd marriage. That of course would put Isabel de Vere in
the 'third position'.
1) _____ = Oliver de = 2) ____ = 3) Isabel de
I Dinham I Vere
____________I 'elder' I
I _________I_______________________
I I I I
Oliver Josce Joan Geoffrey
'younger' = Roger de of Sheepwash &
dsp (ca. 1279) Carminow & Upcott, Devon
= Mary de
Courtenay
Does Risdon cite any documentation re: Oliver 'the younger'?
Also, is there any information concerning the placement of Hugh,
father of Mary de Courtenay, in the Courtenay family? A more
typical marital arrangement would have the younger Oliver marrying a
daughter of Isabel de Vere by her first husband, John (not Hugh) de
Courtenay.....
Cheers,
John *
* John P. Ravilious
John Ravilious
Dear Mark, et al.,
A quick correction to the prior post, re: the (non) issue of Oliver
'the younger' (d. ca. 1279):
The...@aol.com wrote in message news:<1ef.1f58b6...@aol.com>...
<<<<<<<<<< CORRECTION:
first wife, but that he died WITHOUT legitimate surviving issue (ca.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 1279 or before), leaving the succession to Josce, son by an
> (evident) 2nd marriage. That of course would put Isabel de Vere in
> the 'third position'.
>
> 1) _____ = Oliver de = 2) ____ = 3) Isabel de
> I Dinham I Vere
> ____________I 'elder' I
> I _________I_______________________
> I I I I
> Oliver Josce Joan Geoffrey
> 'younger' = Roger de of Sheepwash &
> dsp (ca. 1279) Carminow & Upcott, Devon
> = Mary de
> Courtenay
>
>
> Does Risdon cite any documentation re: Oliver 'the younger'?
> Also, is there any information concerning the placement of Hugh,
> father of Mary de Courtenay, in the Courtenay family? A more
> typical marital arrangement would have the younger Oliver marrying a
> daughter of Isabel de Vere by her first husband, John (not Hugh) de
> Courtenay.....
>
> Cheers,
>
> John *
>
>
> * John P. Ravilious
Cheers,
John
Mark Harry
Tisdon says the following:
"Floruit hoc nomen et in Edwardi I, tempore habuit Baroniam suam
Dominus Oliverus de Dynant. Sed precipue cum Henricus VII regnum
Anglie thesaurarius. Geneologiam ergo hujus familie hoc in loco
inseram, quia Hertland, prima suit eorum sedes, et baronie, et in
posteris ejusdem familie per sorores ultimi Johannis domini Dinham
supra nominati. Hawisia de Dinan, et Sibilla soror ejus dant regi unum
equum de precio pro habendo quoddam precipe de Bucland Crofton in
Somerset, et de Hertland in Devonie coram domino rege, in 3 Septimi
Michaelis, versus Oliverum de Dinant, (Fin. Anno. 6 Johannis, memb.
12.)
Oliverus de Dinant principio regni regis Henrici II. tenuit
(Harteland) reliquit Olivero filio suo. Oliverus genuit Galfridum 3.
Galfridus genuit Oliverum.* 4. Oliverus genuit Oliverum. 5. Oliverus
** iste Baro vocatus est ad parliamentum tentum (23) Edwardi I et
super Isabellum vidnam Johannis domini Courteney filiam Hugonis domini
Dispencer procreavit Joceam; obit 27 Edwardi I. Joceam Dinham per
Margaretam filiam et heredem domini Ricardi de Hilon habuit exitum
Johannem et Oliveram milites et obiit (29 Edwardi I). Margareta uxor
ejus post obitum dicti Joces cepit in virum dominum Petrum Vuedall,
qui baro vocatus est ad parliamentum tentum"
The asterixes show where Risdon's editor has added the following
notes, viz:
*"Though other genealogists mention but one Oliver de Dinham at this
point,it appears to be not improbable that that the pedigree in the
text is correct, though the Inquisition post mortem of the first
Oliver has not been found. He (if he it was) married Mary, the
daughter of Hugh Courtenay of Hemington, in Somerset, which lands Mary
held as dower in 1279 (Plact. de q. w., 2 Edw.I, com, Somerset, Rot.
62) He was twenty-four years of age at the date of his father's
Inquisition post mortem in 1258, and did homage for his lands in Devon
in the same year (Rot. Fin., 43 Henr. III, memb. 10 alias 2)"
** "Oliver de Dinham, if not identical with the preceding, which sems
improbable when it is remembered that Mary de Courtenay was the wife
of an Oliver de Dinham in 1279, and this Oliver de Dinham was the
husband of Isabella de Vere in 1276, had grants of free warren in the
counties of Cornwall, Devon and Somerset in 1280-85 (Cal. Rot. Litt.
Pat. 16 Rich. II, memb. 16)He was dead in 1298"
The editor also makes a further note that Isabella was the daughter of
Hugh de Vere, 4th earl of Oxford.
Mark