SIR ROGER LA ZOUCHE
PEhle...@aol.com
to Margaret ? 1119-1232. Who was she? Can anyone provide her ancestry?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Regards
phyllis in Louisiana
Dcrdcr4
I'd be happy to answer your question. Margaret, wife of Roger la Zouche, was
the daughter of Manasser Biset of Wiltshire and Kidderminster, co. Worcester,
by his wife, Alice. This is based on my original research and can not be
found elsewhere.
Best always, Douglas Richardson
Dcrdcr4
I just posted an incorrect answer to your post. Here is the correct
information. This is based on original research not found elsewhere in print.
Margaret, wife of Roger la Zouche, was the daughter of
Henry Biset, of Kidderminster, co. Worcester and Rockbourne, Hampshire,
benfactor of Hospital of Maiden Bradley. He married (lst) Aubrey, daughter of
Richard Fitz Eustace (ancestor of the Lacy family), with whom he had land in
Emsal, Marton, Plumtree, and the whole town of Harworth, co. Nottingham in
frank marriage. They had three children, William, John and Margaret (above).
He married (2nd) Iseult Pantolf, daughter of Roger Pantolf, of Abkettleby, co.
Leciester, widow of Walter de Tateshall and Hugh de Montpincon. He died
shortly before 11 Dec. 1213. His widow married (4th) Amaury de St. Amand of
Bloxham, co. Oxford.
Henry Biset was the son of:
Manasser (or Manser, Mancel) Biset, steward of King Henry II, lord of
Kidderminster, co. Worcester, and Rockbourne, Hampshire, adult by 1153. He
married Alice de Cany, sister and heiress of Gilbert de Falaise, lord of Cany
in Seine Inferieure in Normandy. They had two children, Henry (above) and
Margaret. Manasser and his wife founded the Hospital of Maiden Bradley. He
died about 1176 [Reference: Pipe Rolls, 1176-7].
Manasser Biset's parentage is unknown but he had a brother, William Biset, to
whom he gave the manor of East Bridgford, co. Nottingham.
Henry Sutliff
Dcrdcr4 wrote:
> Henry Biset, of Kidderminster, co. Worcester and Rockbourne, Hampshire,
> benfactor of Hospital of Maiden Bradley. He married (lst) Aubrey, daughter of
> Richard Fitz Eustace (ancestor of the Lacy family), with whom he had land in
> Emsal, Marton, Plumtree, and the whole town of Harworth, co. Nottingham in
> frank marriage. They had three children, William, John and Margaret (above).
> He married (2nd) Iseult Pantolf, daughter of Roger Pantolf, of Abkettleby, co.
> Leciester, widow of Walter de Tateshall and Hugh de Montpincon. He died
> shortly before 11 Dec. 1213. His widow married (4th) Amaury de St. Amand of
> Bloxham, co. Oxford.
>
Am I correct that the son John of this marriage was the same as the John who. d.
1241, husband of Alice Basset of Headington, Oxon. (widow of William II de Malet),
leaving three daus. Margery, Ela and Isabel?
Henry Sutliff
Robert O'Connor
++++
EUSTACE FITZ JOHN (8)., M Agnes, d. of William de Halton, by his wife -- ,
d. of Gilbert de Gant, Lord of Folkingham (See GANT). Died 1157. He had
issue: CP, VII, p 677
1.RICHARD FITZ EUSTACE, of whom we presently
2.ROBERT FITZ EUSTACE (3), M Albreye, d. of Eudo de Lisours & Albrida,
widow of Henry de Lacy. Died 1163. He had issue: CP, VII, p 677
1a.JOHN de LACY (3)., M Alice. He joined the 3rd Crusade & died at Tyre.
Died 1190. He had issue: CP, VII, p 677
1b.ROGER de LACY., M Maud de Clere. Died 1211. He had issue:
1c.JOHN de LACY, 2nd EARL of LINCOLN (3)., Born 1192. M Margaret, d. of
Robert de Quincy, & Hawise, Countess of Lincoln (See QUINCY). In 1213/4 he
was with King John in Poitou, but in 1215 he was one of the twenty five
Barons appointed to guarantee the observance of the Magna Carta. In 1218
he accompanied the Earl of Chester on Crusade & fought at the Battle of
Damietta. Died 22 July 1240. He had issue: CP, VII, pp 676-80 Weis, p 58
Burke's EP, p 311
1d.MAUD (3), M RICHARD de CLARE, 5th EARL of HERTFORD (d 1262). She had
issue: (See CLARE). Weis, p 58
RICHARD FITZ EUSTACE (5), Lord of Clavering., M Jane, d. of Roger le
Bigod. Constable of Chester. Died 1163. He had issue: Weis, p 214 MCS, p
106
ROGER FITZ RICHARD (5), 1st Lord of Warkworth & Clavering., M Alice, d. of
Aubrey de Vere (See VERE). Died 1178. He had issue: Weis, p 214 MCS, p
106
ROBERT FITZ ROGER (5), 2nd Lord of Warkworth & Clavering., Sheriff of
Northumberland, Norfolk & Suffolk. M Margaret, d. of William de Chesney.
Died 1212. He had issue: Weis, pp 202 & 214
and on down to the Barons Clavering.
++++
Doug, when you refer to Richard Fitz Eustace as the ancestor of the Lacys,
don't you mean ROBERT FitzEustace - or have I got it wrong?
--
Robert O'Connor
roco...@es.co.nz
Christchurch
New Zealand
Robert O'Connor
Dcrdcr4 <dcr...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990326051114...@ng-ce1.aol.com>...
Manasser Biset's parentage is unknown but he had a brother, William Biset,
to
whom he gave the manor of East Bridgford, co. Nottingham.
+++++
Is there a connection between William Biset of East Bridgford, Notts & the
following?:
Sir JOHN BABINGTON, Kt., of East Bridgeford, Notts., He was a knight in
the service of King Edward III. He had issue: HSP Notts I, p 150
JOHN BABINGTON, of East Bridgeford, Notts., M Benedicta, d. of Simon Ward,
of Cambridge. He was a tax collector in Notts., 1382. Died 1409. Bur.
East Bridgeford Church. He had issue: HSP Notts I, p 150 Payling, p 36
Thanks
Robert O'Connor
G . EDWARD ALLEN
>
> Yes, Hap, you are correct. The John Biset who married Alice Basse, widow of
> William Malet,t was the son of Henry Biset, of Kidderminster, co. Worcester, by
> his first wife, Aubrey. John Biset possesses Carolingian ancestry through his
> mother Aubrey.
Did not Henry also have a daughter Aubrey/Albreda who married William
Aubigny of Belvoir Castle?
Kay Allen AG
James C. Woodard
Dcrdcr4 wrote in message <19990326042609...@ng-ce1.aol.com>...
>Hi Phullis:
>
>I'd be happy to answer your question. Margaret, wife of Roger la Zouche,
was
>the daughter of Manasser Biset of Wiltshire and Kidderminster, co.
Worcester,
>by his wife, Alice. This is based on my original research and can not be
>found elsewhere.
>
>Best always, Douglas Richardson
Mardi Carter
>
> > Henry Biset, of Kidderminster, co. Worcester and Rockbourne, Hampshire,
> > benfactor of Hospital of Maiden Bradley. He married (lst) Aubrey, daughter of
> > Richard Fitz Eustace (ancestor of the Lacy family), with whom he had land in
> > Emsal, Marton, Plumtree, and the whole town of Harworth, co. Nottingham in
> > frank marriage. They had three children, William, John and Margaret (above).
> > He married (2nd) Iseult Pantolf, daughter of Roger Pantolf, of Abkettleby, co.
> > Leciester, widow of Walter de Tateshall and Hugh de Montpincon. He died
> > shortly before 11 Dec. 1213. His widow married (4th) Amaury de St. Amand of
> > Bloxham, co. Oxford.
> >
Did Henry Biset and Isolda Pantulf have any children? You call Isolda
the dau. of Roger Pantulf. CP and others call her dau. of William. If
Roger is correct, where does he fit in.
mbc
Dcrdcr4
Dcrdcr4
families. I can tell you that William Biset (brother of Manasser Biset) is
ancestor of the Chaworth family which later held East Bridgeford, co.
Nottingham.
Dcrdcr4
is still a bit down the road. This is separate and distinct from the Magna
Carta Ancestry book due out shortly. Best always, Douglas Richardson
Dcrdcr4
you if Iseult (or Isolda) Pantolf was daughter of Roger Pantolf as I had it, or
William Pantolf as you had it. A lot of my files are not easily accessible to
me. I recommend you check what Complete Peerage says under St. Amand or
Tarershall. Best always,. Douglas Richardson
Robert O'Connor
--
Robert O'Connor
roco...@es.co.nz
Christchurch
New Zealand
Dcrdcr4 <dcr...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990327140424...@ng08.aol.com>...
Dcrdcr4
William, I'd go with that. But on rare occasions, CP is wrong. I am not
aware if Henry Biset had any children by Iseult Pantolf. At the time of
Henry's death, his heir was his son, William, who certainly was not her son.
William was eventually succeeded by his brother, John. I have seen a Curia
Regis roll which calls Iseult the mother of his son, John, but I doubt that she
was as the chronology doesn't seem to allow it. John did not marry until
after 1216, as his wife was Alice Basset, the widow of William Malet, the Magna
Carta baron, who died about that year. Probably a close examination of the
records would tell if Iseult was truly John's mother. A good indication if
John was Iseult's son would be to see what became of the maritagium of Henry
Biset's first wife, Aubrey, in Nottinghamshire. If John got it, I would think
he was almost certainly Aubrey's son. As I recall, John did inherit Aubrey's
maritagium. But it's been some time since I studied the matter in depth.
Since you descend from John Biset, you might enjoy reading the information on
him and his heirs in the cartularly of Cirencester Abbey which is in print.
Best always, Douglas Richardson
Reedpcgen
But the one source I have not been able to check that I have wanted to look at
is:
_The Cartulary of Cirencester Abbey_, I-II edited by Charles Derek Ross (1964),
III ed. by M. Devine.
Does anyone have access to this work that can tell me what information it gives
about the Biset family?
I can at least state the following is correct:
1. WILIAM BISET, first documented ancestor of this family in England, was a
baron of Stephen, Count of Aumale (ca. 1090-1127) [this Stephen was son and
heir of Adelaide, Countess of Aumale (sister of William the Conqueror), by her
third husband, Eudes, Count of Champagne], and lord of Holderness, Yorkshire.
William Biset and his wife, HAWISE were parents of at leaast four children:
1. William "Carpentarius" of East Bridgford, Nottingham, who married Susanna
___ and had a son and heir named Henry (d. by 1212).
2. Manasser Biset, steward to Henry II by 1153, d. 1177, had lands in Notts.,
Worcs., ,Wilts., and Hants. [but no evidence of Yorkshire lands]. By his wife,
Alice, he also had a son and heir named Henry Biset, who came of aage 1187 and
died in 1208.
3. Henry Biset [liv. ca. 1156-61?]
4. Ausold Biset [liv. ca. 1156-61?]
Beyond that, what I have conflicts with what Doug has posted, but I'd like to
see what the Cartulary of Cirencester says before I make a detailed post.
Anyone have access?
pcr
Reedpcgen
>Did not Henry also have a daughter Aubrey/Albreda who married William
>Aubigny of Belvoir Castle?
>
>Kay Allen AG
>
One source I have says that Aubrey, who married William IV ["de
Albini"/d'Aubigny, d. 1242] of Belvoir [son and heir of William III (d. 1236)
by his first wife Margery d' Umfraville], was actually the widow of Henry Biset
(whom she had married by 1190), sister of John "the Constable" and daughter of
Richard Fitz Eustace by Aubrey de Lisours.
This source states that Aubrey was living in 1226, and that she had one child
by William, Isabel, who married [Sir] Robert de Ros, of Hamlake [of Helmsley,
d. 17 may 1285]. Isabel was heiress of Belvoir.
CP says [11:96] that Isabel was "probably" daughter of William d'Aubigny, lord
of Belvoir, by his second wife, Isabel, who survived him. Isabel was born ca.
1233/5 (aged 50/52 in 1285). Her son and heir, William de Ros, was born in or
before 1255 (aged 30 or more in 1285).
pcr
Dcrdcr4
Aubrey Biset, wife of William d'Aubigny, was not the widow of Henry Biset.
Henry Biset was survived by his second wife, Iseult Pantolf, as is made clear
by Complete Peerage under Tatershall and St. Amand.
As such, I assume Aubrey was the daughter of Henry Biset's first marriage to
Aubrey Fitz Richard, which you say took place by 1190.
I agree with Complete Peerage that William d'Aubigny's daughter and heiress,
Isabel, was probably the child of his second wife, Isabel, rather than Aubrey
Biset.
All for now. Douglas Richardson
.
Dcrdcr4
recall, it doesn't conflict with anything I posted. It includes information
on a cadet branch of the Biset family which I believe later died out.
I haven't seen any evidence that Manasser Biset was the son of a William Biset,
although that could be true. I haven't studied the matter to see how Manasser
obtained his properties. As best I can determine, Massaser Biset was older
than his brother, William, of East Bridgeford, co. Nottingham, not junior as
you have it. William's descendants held property of Manasser's descendants
which suggests to me that Manasser was the head of the senior branch of the
family and that William's line was a cadet branch.
The descent of William Biset (brother of Manasser) down to the Chaworth family
is not handled as well as it could be in the sources. I found a court case
recently which provided an important correction in the lineage down to the
Chaworths. Also, I should mention that the Bisets are incuded in the book,
Honours and Knights' Fees, if my memory serves me correctly.
Jay
before I make a detailed post.
Anyone have access?"
I have that source in the library here. I will try to locate it later
today.
Jay
Reedpcgen
this family and it's various descents (with full citations and explanation of
analysis) until the end of next week.
I first studied this family in detail some years ago when working on the
Wentworths, who inherited the Biset land in Elmsal from the heiress of that
branch of the family. Roger Dodsworth proposed an erroneous pedigree in an
attempt to connect the John Biset who died ca. 19 Edw. II holding land in
Elmsal and Thweng (leaving a son and heir named John Biset, aged 30 and more)
[CIPM Edw. II 6:407 (no. 643)] to the Kidderminster Bisets. This John is not
the one who succeeded as heir of the Worcester Biset family, as Dodsworth had
supposed.
A kind soul has faxed me the pertinent pages of the Cirencester Cartulary. I
therefore make this addendum to my initial post, leaving the full explanation
for next week. The information it contains has only reinforced my previous
conclusions.
WILIAM BISET, first documented ancestor of this family in England, was a baron
of Stephen, Count of Aumale and lord of Holderness, Yorkshire [EYC, etc.].
William Biset and his wife, HAWISE were parents of at least six children
(possibly seven):
1. William "Carpentarius" of East Bridgford, Nottingham, married Susanna
___ and had a son and heir named Henry (d. by 1212). It seems logical to
conclude that it was this Henry--who had Nottingham/Yorkshire ties--who married
Aubrey Fitz Eustace, sister of John the Constable, and that she survived him to
marry William d'Aubigny of Belvoir.
2. Manasser Biset, steward to Henry II by 1153, d. 1177, had lands in Notts.
[but this land he gave to his brother William, ending his interests there],
Worcs., ,Wilts., and Hants. [but no evidence of Yorkshire lands], and Gloucs.
By his wife,
Alice, sister of Gilbert de Falaise, he also had a son and heir named Henry
Biset, who died in 1208. This Henry definitely married Isolde, but she might
be a second wife, rather than mother of his heir. I know of no specific
evidence or rationale to claim that this Henry, who was seated at
Kidderminster, Worcester, married a Yorkshire girl. No Yorkshire lands are
evidenced in this branch of the family or their descendants.
3. Henry Biset [liv. ca. 1156-61?]
4. Ausold/Ansold Biset [liv. ca. 1156-61?]
5. Bartholomew Biset [liv. a. 1166], apparently father of William Biset.
6. Felicia Biset, who married Ansfrid Thorel, alias de la Marche, and received
interests in the Gloucestershire manor of Wigwold.
?7. Robert Biset, who witnessed one of the charters, and was therefore
contemporaneous.
Also, there was a Henry Biset, living 1231, who married Sibyl, eldest of the
three daughters and coheirs of Adam son of Burnell de Amenville/Dampnevill and
his wife Petronille, who was then suing for his wife's interests in Yorkshire.
So we'll hash this all out on my return. Everyone have a good Easter!
pcr
Dcrdcr4
Someone already sent Paul the material in the Cirencester Cartulary.