Another correction for CP: Hungerford-Percy
Douglas Richardson
Complete Peerage 6 (1926): 621 (Hungerford) identifies the wife of Sir
Thomas Hungerford as "Anne, da. of Henry (Percy), 3rd Earl of
Northumberland, by Eleanor, da. of Richard Poynings."
In footnote "e" which follows on pg. 621, the editor notes that
Collins' Peerage of England, 2: 291, places Anne as a child in the
previous generation of the Percy family, that is, as the daughter of
Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland, by Eleanor Neville. I note
Clay's Extinct and Dormant Peerages (1913), pg. 163 similarly makes
Anne Percy the daughter of Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland, by
Eleanor Neville.
Yet, the editor of Complete Peerage evidently had other ideas. In his
footnote, he states "the dates, however, for this assumpton are not
propitious." He explains that Anne Percy, wife of Sir Thomas
Hungerford, is called daughter of Eleanor, Countess of Northumberland,
in a document dated 1480. Inasmuch as Eleanor, wife of Henry, 2nd
Earl, died about 1472/3, he assumes she can't be the mother of Anne.
Rather, he asserts Anne must be the daughter of Eleanor, wife of
Henry, 3rd Earl, who died in 1484.
Regardless, a contemporary visitation of the Percy family which dates
from the period c. 1480-1500 is now in print [Reference: Visitation of
the North (Surtees Soc., vol. 144) (1930), pp. 18-20]. This
visitation was taken in the lifetime of Anne (Percy) Hungerford and
thus must be accorded much reliability. The visitationm shows that
Anne Percy was the daughter of Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of
Northumberland, and his wife, Eleanor Neville. Thus, this visitation
thus stands in agreement with both Collins and Clay.
Two colonial immigrants descend from Anne Percy, wife of Sir Thomas
Hungerford, as follows:
1. John Nelson.
2. Maria Johanna Somerset.
Further details of the Percy and Hungerford families will be found in
the forthcoming book, Plantagenet Ancestry, 3rd edition.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
Douglas Richardson
I have posted a correction version below. My thanks to Doug Smith
for communicating the mistake. DR
Dear Newsgroup:
Complete Peerage 6 (1926): 621 (Hungerford) identifies the wife of Sir
Thomas Hungerford as "Anne, da. of Henry (Percy), 3rd Earl of
Northumberland, by Eleanor, da. of Richard Poynings."
In footnote "e" which follows on pg. 621, the editor notes that
Collins' Peerage of England, 2: 291, places Anne as a child in the
previous generation of the Percy family, that is, as the daughter of
Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland, by Eleanor Neville. I note
Clay's Extinct and Dormant Peerages (1913), pg. 163 similarly makes
Anne Percy the daughter of Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland, by
Eleanor Neville.
Yet, the editor of Complete Peerage evidently had other ideas. In his
footnote, he states "the dates, however, for this assumpton are not
propitious." He explains that Anne Percy, wife of Sir Thomas
Hungerford, is called daughter of Eleanor, Countess of Northumberland,
in a document dated 1480. Inasmuch as Eleanor, wife of Henry, 2nd
Earl, died about 1472/3, he assumes she can't be the mother of Anne.
Rather, he asserts Anne must be the daughter of Eleanor, wife of
Henry, 3rd Earl, who died in 1484.
Regardless, a contemporary visitation of the Percy family which dates
from the period c. 1480-1500 is now in print [Reference: Visitation of
the North (Surtees Soc., vol. 144) (1930), pp. 18-20]. This
visitation was taken in the lifetime of Anne (Percy) Hungerford and
thus must be accorded much reliability. The visitation shows that
canberra
The parents of this Anne Percy I find still problematic.
She married before 16 October 1460 (Sir Thomas Hungerford) but it takes her
till circa 1467 to give birth to her daughter. Does this imply she was only
a young girl when she married ? After all, she marries twice more after Sir
Thomas.
If she was a young girl, let's guess she was about twenty when she gave
birth, that makes her born roughly 1447. But I would guess she was younger
than twenty.
Henry Percy 3rd Earl married circa 25 June 1435, and so 1447 would fit in.
Henry Percy 2nd Earl and Eleanor Nevill had children, roughly, between 1416
and 1428. However, Cahiers de Saint Louis, page 826, in a footnote tells
that the 2nd Earl had a last born, Anne, born after 1428. If we are generous
and say this Anne was born in 1435 (not likely in my opinion)
then she was 32 in 1467 when giving birth. And this, to me, seems unlikely
as well.
Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, simply tells she is a daughter of Henry, Earl
of Northumberland, without 2nd or 3rd nor a mother, and so that does not
help.
Gerald Paget in his book on the ancestors of Prince Charles also calls her a
daughter of the 3rd Earl.
Also taking into account your quote that in 1480 is mentioned as daughter of
Eleanor, Countess of Northumberland. If in 1480 there was a living Eleanor,
Countess of Northumberland, which was Eleanor Poynings, surely that would be
the mother. They would not confuse the matter by referring to a death person
with the same first name and title. If she was the daughter of a in 1480
death person, wouldn't they have referred to her as the sister of the then
living Earl?
At the moment my vote goes to the 3rd Earl.
What are your thoughts?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 2:48 AM
Subject: Re: Another correction for CP: Hungerford-Percy
> I made a slight error in the post below which I made late last night.
> I have posted a correction version below. My thanks to Doug Smith
> for communicating the mistake. DR
>
>
> Dear Newsgroup:
>
> Complete Peerage 6 (1926): 621 (Hungerford) identifies the wife of Sir
> Thomas Hungerford as "Anne, da. of Henry (Percy), 3rd Earl of
> Northumberland, by Eleanor, da. of Richard Poynings."
>
> In footnote "e" which follows on pg. 621, the editor notes that
> Collins' Peerage of England, 2: 291, places Anne as a child in the
> previous generation of the Percy family, that is, as the daughter of
> Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland, by Eleanor Neville. I note
> Clay's Extinct and Dormant Peerages (1913), pg. 163 similarly makes
> Anne Percy the daughter of Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland, by
> Eleanor Neville.
>
> Yet, the editor of Complete Peerage evidently had other ideas. In his
> footnote, he states "the dates, however, for this assumpton are not
> propitious." He explains that Anne Percy, wife of Sir Thomas
> Hungerford, is called daughter of Eleanor, Countess of Northumberland,
> in a document dated 1480. Inasmuch as Eleanor, wife of Henry, 2nd
> Earl, died about 1472/3, he assumes she can't be the mother of Anne.
> Rather, he asserts Anne must be the daughter of Eleanor, wife of
> Henry, 3rd Earl, who died in 1484.
>
> Regardless, a contemporary visitation of the Percy family which dates
> from the period c. 1480-1500 is now in print [Reference: Visitation of
> the North (Surtees Soc., vol. 144) (1930), pp. 18-20]. This
> visitation was taken in the lifetime of Anne (Percy) Hungerford and
> thus must be accorded much reliability. The visitation shows that
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post.
In answer to your question, I have studied the matter of Anne (Percy)
Hungerford further and have determined there are at least THREE
pedigrees which place her as a daughter of Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of
Northumberland. These pedigrees were evidently all compiled during
the lifetime of Anne Percy. The first one I cited in my first post,
it being the Visitation of the North taken in the period c. 1480-1500.
This pedigree is quite reliable. The second pedigree was recorded
during the reign of King Henry VII. It was published in Collectanea
Topographica et Genealogica, 1 (1834): 298, under the title "Pedigrees
of Noble Families Related to the Blood Royal." The third pedigree
called Cavell's Roll was cited by Collins' Peerage of England, 2
(1812): 291. This pedigree was so specific as to provide birth dates
and birthplaces for Anne Percy and her siblings. To my knowledge,
these pedigrees were complied by three different individuals, all of
whom recorded Anne Percy as the daughter of the 2nd Earl. For reasons
unknown to me, this complelling evidence was ignored or rejected by
the editor of Complete Peerage.
As for the children of Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland, the
Visitation of the North cited above indicates that the 3rd Earl had
one son, Henry, 4th Earl, and three daughters, Eleanor, Margaret (wife
of William Gascoigne, Knt.), and Elizabeth (wife of Henry Scrope).
Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 546 (sub Scrope of Bolton) confirms the
marriage of Elizabeth Percy to Henry Scrope, 6th Lord Scrope of
Bolton, who it states was born about 1468. If correct, it would
appear that Henry Scrope was the same approximate age as Anne Percy's
daughter, Mary Hungerford. Given the fact that Elizabeth Percy's
husband was the same age as Anne Percy's daughter, I have no trouble
accepting that Anne (Percy) Hungerford was Elizabeth Percy's aunt.
Furthermore, I find Henry Percy, 4th Earl, died testate in 1489. I
located a copy of his will published in Collectanea Topographica et
Genealogica, 2 (1835): 65. The will includes references to the 4th
Earl's brother-in-law, Henry Scrope, and to his niece, Elizabeth
Gascoigne (daughter of his sister, Elizabeth). Thus, the will
confirms the marriages of both of his known sisters, Margaret and
Elizabeth, who married and left issue, but no reference appears in
this will to Anne (Percy) Hungerford. The likeliest explanation is
because Anne (Percy) Hungerford was more distantly related to the 4th
Earl than sister.
Given these considerations, I conclude that Anne (Percy) Hungerford
was the daughter of Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland, as stated
by Collins and Clay. If anyone has anything further to add to this
matter, I should appreciate hearing from them.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
leov...@bigpond.com (canberra) wrote in message news:<005901c1c669$84a29dc0$f88a868b@leo>...
canberra
You have performed very well with your 85 year rule to establish
possibilities. I still find the years for Anne that are available as
confusing as these seem to make her almost forty before she gives birth to
her first (and apparently only child) and after the death of her husband she
marries twice more. For medieval times that is very late. Also take in mind
the date of her death, 1522, sixty-five years after giving birth, add forty
(more or less) and she died well over a hundred years of age. Also we must
not forget that her first husband, Thomas Hungerford, was executed as a
traitor and this may well have estranged Anne from her brother.
However, even more telling I find is that according to Cahiers de Saint
Louis (which does make her daughter of the 2nd Earl) maintains Thomas
Hungerford was born in 1442, which could make him about 14 years YOUNGER
than his wife. Especially for medieval times I find that curious. Forget
about the Widville marriage of one of Elizabeth's sister, that was very much
an exception.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: Another correction for CP: Hungerford-Percy
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> E-mail: royala...@msn.com
>
>
daughter of
> > Eleanor, Countess of Northumberland. If in 1480 there was a living
Eleanor,
> > Countess of Northumberland, which was Eleanor Poynings, surely that
would be
> > the mother. They would not confuse the matter by referring to a death
person
> > with the same first name and title. If she was the daughter of a in 1480
> > death person, wouldn't they have referred to her as the sister of the
then
> > living Earl?
> >
> > At the moment my vote goes to the 3rd Earl.
> > What are your thoughts?
> > Best wishes
> > Leo van de Pas
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
> > To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 2:48 AM
> > Subject: Re: Another correction for CP: Hungerford-Percy
> >
> >
> > > I made a slight error in the post below which I made late last night.
> > > I have posted a correction version below. My thanks to Doug Smith
> > > for communicating the mistake. DR
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Newsgroup:
> > >
> > > Complete Peerage 6 (1926): 621 (Hungerford) identifies the wife of Sir
> > > Thomas Hungerford as "Anne, da. of Henry (Percy), 3rd Earl of
> > > Northumberland, by Eleanor, da. of Richard Poynings."
> > >
> > > In footnote "e" which follows on pg. 621, the editor notes that
> > > Collins' Peerage of England, 2: 291, places Anne as a child in the
> > > previous generation of the Percy family, that is, as the daughter of
> > > Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland, by Eleanor Neville. I note
> > > Clay's Extinct and Dormant Peerages (1913), pg. 163 similarly makes
> > > Anne Percy the daughter of Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland, by
> > > Eleanor Neville.
> > >
> > > Yet, the editor of Complete Peerage evidently had other ideas. In his
> > > footnote, he states "the dates, however, for this assumpton are not
> > > propitious." He explains that Anne Percy, wife of Sir Thomas
> > > Hungerford, is called daughter of Eleanor, Countess of Northumberland,
> > > in a document dated 1480. Inasmuch as Eleanor, wife of Henry, 2nd
> > > Earl, died about 1472/3, he assumes she can't be the mother of Anne.
> > > Rather, he asserts Anne must be the daughter of Eleanor, wife of
> > > Henry, 3rd Earl, who died in 1484.
> > >
> > > Regardless, a contemporary visitation of the Percy family which dates
> > > from the period c. 1480-1500 is now in print [Reference: Visitation of
> > > the North (Surtees Soc., vol. 144) (1930), pp. 18-20]. This
> > > visitation was taken in the lifetime of Anne (Percy) Hungerford and
> > > thus must be accorded much reliability. The visitation shows that
canberra
I missed something. You state you have the date of birth for Anne and her
siblings, according to Collins Peerage.. Can you tell us when she was born?
Cahiers the Saint Louis tells the 2nd Earl had a last born, born after 1428.
This Anne married before 1460, making her about 30-32 when marrying and
giving birth circa 1467,
when she was about 39-ish. And I though most medieval girls married about
12-15 and having children, say, 3 or 4 years later. Why the big exception
with Anne?
Cahiers de Saint Louis, page 823, gives us the following children for the
2nd Earl
1.Henry, died young
2.John, born 8 July 1418 Warlsworth, died young
3.John, died young
4.Joan, nun, buried at Whitbey
5.Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland, born 25 July 1421 Leconvield
6.Thomas, Baron Egremont, born 29 November 1422 Leconfield
7.Catherine, born 18 May 1423 Leconfield
8.George, born 1424 Leconfield
9.Ralph born 11 August 1425 Leconfield
10. Richard born circa 1426/1427 killed in the battle of Towton 29 March
1461
11.William born 7 April 1428 Leconfield
12.Anne born 3 February 14.. at Dunganess.
She could have been born in 1429 or 1430, and her husband in 1442.? I still
can't see it.
I am interested to see how much you can add to this list,
especially as you say that Collins Peerage provided the dates of birth and
places of birth for Anne and her siblings.
I hope you mean ALL her siblings, because Cahiers de Saint Louis misses out
on a few.
Look forward to hearing from you.
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> E-mail: royala...@msn.com
>
>
daughter of
> > Eleanor, Countess of Northumberland. If in 1480 there was a living
Eleanor,
> > Countess of Northumberland, which was Eleanor Poynings, surely that
would be
> > the mother. They would not confuse the matter by referring to a death
person
> > with the same first name and title. If she was the daughter of a in 1480
> > death person, wouldn't they have referred to her as the sister of the
then
> > living Earl?
> >
> > At the moment my vote goes to the 3rd Earl.
> > What are your thoughts?
> > Best wishes
> > Leo van de Pas
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
> > To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 2:48 AM
> > Subject: Re: Another correction for CP: Hungerford-Percy
> >
> >
> > > I made a slight error in the post below which I made late last night.
> > > I have posted a correction version below. My thanks to Doug Smith
> > > for communicating the mistake. DR
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Newsgroup:
> > >
> > > Complete Peerage 6 (1926): 621 (Hungerford) identifies the wife of Sir
> > > Thomas Hungerford as "Anne, da. of Henry (Percy), 3rd Earl of
> > > Northumberland, by Eleanor, da. of Richard Poynings."
> > >
> > > In footnote "e" which follows on pg. 621, the editor notes that
> > > Collins' Peerage of England, 2: 291, places Anne as a child in the
> > > previous generation of the Percy family, that is, as the daughter of
> > > Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland, by Eleanor Neville. I note
> > > Clay's Extinct and Dormant Peerages (1913), pg. 163 similarly makes
> > > Anne Percy the daughter of Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland, by
> > > Eleanor Neville.
> > >
> > > Yet, the editor of Complete Peerage evidently had other ideas. In his
> > > footnote, he states "the dates, however, for this assumpton are not
> > > propitious." He explains that Anne Percy, wife of Sir Thomas
> > > Hungerford, is called daughter of Eleanor, Countess of Northumberland,
> > > in a document dated 1480. Inasmuch as Eleanor, wife of Henry, 2nd
> > > Earl, died about 1472/3, he assumes she can't be the mother of Anne.
> > > Rather, he asserts Anne must be the daughter of Eleanor, wife of
> > > Henry, 3rd Earl, who died in 1484.
> > >
> > > Regardless, a contemporary visitation of the Percy family which dates
> > > from the period c. 1480-1500 is now in print [Reference: Visitation of
> > > the North (Surtees Soc., vol. 144) (1930), pp. 18-20]. This
> > > visitation was taken in the lifetime of Anne (Percy) Hungerford and
> > > thus must be accorded much reliability. The visitation shows that
Douglas Richardson
Reviewing Collins, I see he cites yet another pedigree which shows
that Anne (Percy) Hungerford was daughter of Henry Percy 2nd Earl.
This additional material comes from a manuscript preserved in the
British Library, said to be extracted from the "Registro Monasterij de
Whitbye." Collins gives a specific citation for this source as
Harleian Manuscript No. 692 (26) folio 235, printed in Antiquarian
Repertory, 4to vol. ii. No. 5 p. 109.
Collins quotes the manuscript as reading as follows:
"And of this Alianor his wife, he begate IX sonnes and III daughters,
whose names be Johane, that is buried at Whytbye: Thomas Lord
Egrement: Katherine Grey [of] Rythyn: Sir Raffe Percy: William Percy,
a Byshopp: Richard Percy: John, that dyed without issue: [another
John, called by Vincent John Percy senior of Warkwarth]: George Percy
Clerk: Henry, that dyed without issue: Anne ____" [besides the eldest
son and successor here omitted, because he comes in below, viz.]
"Henry Percy, the third Erle of Northumberland." [Reference: Collins,
Peerage of England, 2 (1812): 279].
Collins states "it is very difficult to arrange them [the children]
exactly in the order of their births, because in the old pedigrees,
drawn up near the time in which they lived, they are commonly
distributed in a circle round their parents, in small orbs issuing
like rays from a center; we shall however be able to ascertain the
dates of some of their births from an ancient genealogical roll made
by a Chaplain of this second Earl of Northumberland, named Robert
Covell, which is still preserved among the archives of the
Northumberland family."
So it would appear we now have no less than four sources which name
Anne (Percy) Hungerford as daughter of Henry, 2nd Earl, one of them
being a record kept by the Earl's own chaplain. Frankly, this is as
good as it gets for evidence in this period.
As for Anne (Percy) Hungerford's birth, she appears to have been the
youngest surviving child of Henry Percy, 2nd Earl, and his wife,
Eleanor Neville. We can estimate that Eleanor Neville was born about
1400, as she married shortly after October 1414. If correct, then
Eleanor Neville could have had children anywhere from 1415 to 1445.
Assuming Anne (Percy) Hungerford was her youngest child, we may
presume Anne was born 1440/1445, making her no more than 82 at her
death in 1522. Quoting Dugdale, Collins says Anne died in "extreme
old age."
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
>
Doug McDonald
Douglas Richardson wrote:
>
> Collins states "it is very difficult to arrange them [the children]
> exactly in the order of their births, because in the old pedigrees,
> drawn up near the time in which they lived, they are commonly
> distributed in a circle round their parents, in small orbs issuing
> like rays from a center; we shall however be able to ascertain the
> dates of some of their births from an ancient genealogical roll made
> by a Chaplain of this second Earl of Northumberland, named Robert
> Covell, which is still preserved among the archives of the
> Northumberland family."
>
> So it would appear we now have no less than four sources which name
> Anne (Percy) Hungerford as daughter of Henry, 2nd Earl, one of them
> being a record kept by the Earl's own chaplain.
No, Doug, the logic does NOT say that. ("That" being a naming of an Anne
as sone of the 2nd Earl). It says that he (Collins) says that
he can determine birth order of SOME from the chaplain's stuff. It does
not say, in that quote, whether Anne is among those, or whether she is
in
the Chaplain's roll at all. To say that we need to see that roll or a
more
complete description of it.
Doug McDonald
canberra
Sadly, you seem to be guessing as to the date of birth of Anne, and so
Collins did not give her date (or just year) of birth, as you suggested. If
we look at the pattern of the births of the children, as supplied by Cahiers
de Saint Louis, they came with a regularity of almost one a year. The last
recorded date was 1428, and Anne was born "after 1428", I doubt very much
that after giving birth to ELEVEN children on such a regular basis, that
there would be a gap of twelve to seventeen years for the last child.
Surely, it is possible that both the 2nd and the 3rd Earl had a daughter
named Anne.
Douglas, you guess that Eleanor Nevill was born about 1400, surely, you
looked up HER mother? She died in 1395, making Eleanor Nevill at least 45 to
50 in 1440-1445 period, and still that huge gap between children, from 1428
to 1440-1445 is too much?.
Sources are great but they are not always correct and when one starts to
quote the other, errors may be perpetuated.
Hope someone can come up with something more, as I still am not convinced
that Anne Hungerford-Percy is a daughter of the 2nd Earl.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 4:26 AM
Subject: Re: Another correction for CP: Hungerford-Percy
> Dear Leo & Newsgroup ~
>
> Reviewing Collins, I see he cites yet another pedigree which shows
> that Anne (Percy) Hungerford was daughter of Henry Percy 2nd Earl.
> This additional material comes from a manuscript preserved in the
> British Library, said to be extracted from the "Registro Monasterij de
> Whitbye." Collins gives a specific citation for this source as
> Harleian Manuscript No. 692 (26) folio 235, printed in Antiquarian
> Repertory, 4to vol. ii. No. 5 p. 109.
>
> Collins quotes the manuscript as reading as follows:
>
> "And of this Alianor his wife, he begate IX sonnes and III daughters,
> whose names be Johane, that is buried at Whytbye: Thomas Lord
> Egrement: Katherine Grey [of] Rythyn: Sir Raffe Percy: William Percy,
> a Byshopp: Richard Percy: John, that dyed without issue: [another
> John, called by Vincent John Percy senior of Warkwarth]: George Percy
> Clerk: Henry, that dyed without issue: Anne ____" [besides the eldest
> son and successor here omitted, because he comes in below, viz.]
> "Henry Percy, the third Erle of Northumberland." [Reference: Collins,
> Peerage of England, 2 (1812): 279].
>
> Collins states "it is very difficult to arrange them [the children]
> exactly in the order of their births, because in the old pedigrees,
> drawn up near the time in which they lived, they are commonly
> distributed in a circle round their parents, in small orbs issuing
> like rays from a center; we shall however be able to ascertain the
> dates of some of their births from an ancient genealogical roll made
> by a Chaplain of this second Earl of Northumberland, named Robert
> Covell, which is still preserved among the archives of the
> Northumberland family."
>
> So it would appear we now have no less than four sources which name
> Anne (Percy) Hungerford as daughter of Henry, 2nd Earl, one of them
> being a record kept by the Earl's own chaplain. Frankly, this is as
> good as it gets for evidence in this period.
>
> As for Anne (Percy) Hungerford's birth, she appears to have been the
> youngest surviving child of Henry Percy, 2nd Earl, and his wife,
> Eleanor Neville. We can estimate that Eleanor Neville was born about
> 1400, as she married shortly after October 1414. If correct, then
> Eleanor Neville could have had children anywhere from 1415 to 1445.
> Assuming Anne (Percy) Hungerford was her youngest child, we may
> presume Anne was born 1440/1445, making her no more than 82 at her
> death in 1522. Quoting Dugdale, Collins says Anne died in "extreme
> old age."
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> E-mail: royala...@msn.com
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
> > To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 2:48 AM
> > Subject: Re: Another correction for CP: Hungerford-Percy
> >
> >
> > I made a slight error in the post below which I made late last night.
> > I have posted a correction version below. My thanks to Doug Smith
> > for communicating the mistake. DR
> >
> >
> > Dear Newsgroup:
> >
> > Complete Peerage 6 (1926): 621 (Hungerford) identifies the wife of Sir
> > Thomas Hungerford as "Anne, da. of Henry (Percy), 3rd Earl of
> > Northumberland, by Eleanor, da. of Richard Poynings."
> >
> > In footnote "e" which follows on pg. 621, the editor notes that
> > Collins' Peerage of England, 2: 291, places Anne as a child in the
> > previous generation of the Percy family, that is, as the daughter of
> > Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland, by Eleanor Neville. I note
> > Clay's Extinct and Dormant Peerages (1913), pg. 163 similarly makes
> > Anne Percy the daughter of Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland, by
> > Eleanor Neville.
> >
> > Yet, the editor of Complete Peerage evidently had other ideas. In his
> > footnote, he states "the dates, however, for this assumpton are not
> > propitious." He explains that Anne Percy, wife of Sir Thomas
> > Hungerford, is called daughter of Eleanor, Countess of Northumberland,
> > in a document dated 1480. Inasmuch as Eleanor, wife of Henry, 2nd
> > Earl, died about 1472/3, he assumes she can't be the mother of Anne.
> > Rather, he asserts Anne must be the daughter of Eleanor, wife of
> > Henry, 3rd Earl, who died in 1484.
> >
> > Regardless, a contemporary visitation of the Percy family which dates
> > from the period c. 1480-1500 is now in print [Reference: Visitation of
> > the North (Surtees Soc., vol. 144) (1930), pp. 18-20]. This
> > visitation was taken in the lifetime of Anne (Percy) Hungerford and
> > thus must be accorded much reliability. The visitation shows that
Jared L. Olar
writes:
> I doubt very much that after giving birth to ELEVEN children
> on such a regular basis, that there would be a gap of twelve
> to seventeen years for the last child.
A reasonable doubt, but perhaps not sufficient to question the sources
Douglas has used. It's hardly uncommon for one to see "surprise" births
born many years after a family thought they were done having kids. Ten
to fifteen years is not an unreasonable gap. One friend of mine was born
fifteen years after the last of her four older brothers was born . . . .
Another friend has a gap of ten years.
Jared
". . . quoniam et Romano Episcopo haec est consuetudo."
Nicaea I Canon VI
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
Chris Phillips
> Douglas, you guess that Eleanor Nevill was born about 1400, surely, you
> looked up HER mother? She died in 1395, making Eleanor Nevill at least 45
to
> 50 in 1440-1445 period, and still that huge gap between children, from
1428
> to 1440-1445 is too much?.
Complete Peerage vol.9, p.716 makes Eleanor a daughter of Ralph Neville by
his 2nd wife, Joan Beaufort.
According to vol.12, part 2, p.547, Ralph and Joan married in 1396, he died
1425 and she died 1440. Footnote h says they had 14 children. (It says
Ralph's first wife died in 1396.)
If that's correct, it doesn't appear there's any constraint on Eleanor's age
from this source.
I've been following the discussion with interest. Could I ask what your
"Cahiers de St Louis" are? I must admit it's not a source I've met before.
Chris Phillips
Gryphon801
publication in 1976. I kept up my subscription through page 2333. Its purpose
was to trace descendants of King Louis IX and its statements need to be
supported by other documented sources; the compilers used a bibliography at the
end of each issue but source footnotes are few.
canberra
That friend with only four older brothers, what was the time span those four
were born in?
I realised I made an error claiming Eleanor was born before 1395, she was
born well and truly afterwards. Her parents married in 1397 and she was most
likely the second child of that marriage, sorry Douglas Richardson, this
was my error, I had the two wives of her father confused. If she was born
in 1400, then she was about 12 at her first marriage. About 14 at the
second and about 16 when giving birth to her first child.
In about 12 years she gives birth to eleven children, then to have a gap of
twelve to seventeen years, I still find "curious".
If Anne Percy, like her mother married aged about 12, she married before 16
October 1460, then she could have been born around 1448. The third Earl had
been married since 1435.
I do doubt the sources quoted by Douglas Richardson.
As advised by Douglas Richardson, Collins quotes, therefor Collins copied
and cannot be regarded as a primary source. Collins quotes from a source
"said to be" extracted from "Registro Monasterij de Whitby", in this
quotation is shown that Katherine must have married a Grey of Ruthyn (she
did marry Edmund Grey, 4th Lord Grey of Ruthyn, later 1st Earl of Kent). The
elder daughter, Joan, a nun, is not mentioned and Anne ---- no indication
to her marriage. If this manuscript is dated before "before 16 October 1460"
(Anne's first marriage date) then this is acceptable. In either case, this
cannot be quoted as a proof of Anne, daughter of the 2nd Earl, being Anne
Hungerford-Percy.
The Visitation of the North, ca.1480-1500, is still at least 40 years,
possibly 60 years, after the birth of Anne, as she appears to have been born
about 1440. Is being "quite reliable" enough?
Was "Collectanea Topographica et Genealogica" published in 1834? This was
based "on a pedigree recorded in the reign of Henry VII (1485-1509) and
therefor between 45 to 69 years after Anne's birth, if she was born in 1440.
The third source, quoted by Collins, "Cavell's Roll" was supposed, quoting
Douglas Richardson, to have provided birth dates and birthplaces for Anne
and her siblings. So far, no-one has supplied these for "Anne and her
siblings"
If the first source had it wrong and the others copied, they may have
continued an error. We can only wonder why the Complete Peerage ignored or
rejected the "compelling evidence." I still feel Anne Hungerford-Percy
is a daughter of the 3rd Earl.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
canberra
Joan Beaufort, she may have been the second child of that marriage and about
1400 is perfectly acceptable as a year of birth.
Cahiers de Saint Louis is a collection of 30 publications, produced by the
late Abbe Jacques Dupont and Jacques Saillot. Sadly, the death of Abbe
Dupont stopped this effort. as Abbe Dupont was the main person who produced
them.
It was intended to cover all, legitimate and illegitimate, descendants of
Louis IX, King of France, to the present.. The first volume appeared in
1976. The last volume probably in 1987. It is divided in "chapters" and
lists of sources are supplied, usually chapter by chapter.
The sources for the segment on Anne Percy (they give her father as the 2nd
Earl) on page 835 is referred to page 874.
However, on page 826 in a footnote, it tells that The Complete Peerage (Vol.
VI page 621) suggests, for reasons of chronology, Anne is a daughter of the
3rd Earl but also that the 2nd Earl had a last born child, Anne, born after
1428. But how many years after 1428?
Hope this helps?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Phillips" <cgp...@cgp100.dabsol.co.uk>
To: <GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com>
Cc: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>; ""canberra""
<leov...@bigpond.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: Still not convinced about Anne Percy's parents!
Jared L. Olar
writes:
> Dear Jared,
> That friend with only four older brothers, what was the time span
> those four were born in?
About one and a half to two years apart.
Brad Verity
> I missed something. You state you have the date of birth for Anne and her
> siblings, according to Collins Peerage.. Can you tell us when she was born?
Leo, I don't have a photocopy of the Percy article from Collins'
Peerage, but a few years back I did transcribe the Collins information
on the 2nd Earl's children. I'm going to put what I have in quotes,
but I can't guarantee that it's exactly how Collins phrases it. My
citation is that it is from Collins' Peerage, Volume II, page 265.
> Cahiers de Saint Louis, page 823, gives us the following children for the
> 2nd Earl
Collins disagrees with what Cahiers has as to birth order:
> 1.Henry, died young
Collins lists this Henry as the second child: "Henry Percy the elder
is usually represented to have been the same that succeeded to the
honours and estates of his father, and to have been 3rd Earl. But as
the 3rd Earl is mentioned in an inquisition taken on the death of his
father in 1455 (33 Hen VI) to have been then aged thirty years and
upwards, he could not have been this first Henry, who must have been
about forty at that time; and it was more probably the younger Henry
(mentioned below) who would indeed be aged thirty-three at the time of
his father's death. It is most probable therefore that it was this
first Henry that deceased without issue; who, dying in his infancy,
the name was afterwards given to another son."
> 2.John, born 8 July 1418 Warlsworth, died young
Collins has this John as the third child: "born at Warkworth on St.
Grimbald's day (8 Jul) anno MCCCCXVIII, and apparently died an
infant."
> 3.John, died young
Collins has this second John as the fourth child: "died also without
issue, and apparently in his infancy. In some genealogies, one of
these two Johns is styled Sir John Percy, Knight, but I can find no
good authority for this distinction."
> 4.Joan, nun, buried at Whitbey
Collins has Joan as the eldest child of the 2nd Earl: "said to have
been a nun, and was buried in Whitby Abbey: she probably had taken the
veil at Handale, or some other nunnery in Yorkshire, though she had
her sepulture in that monastery, which had been the chief burying
place of her family."
> 5.Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland, born 25 July 1421 Leconvield
Collins also has this second Henry as the fifth child, and from this
point on the birth order matches Cahiers: "born at Leckenfield in
Yorksh. on St. James' day (25 Jul) anno MCCCCXXI. It was evidently
this second Henry that was afterwards 3rd Earl of Northumberland."
> 6.Thomas, Baron Egremont, born 29 November 1422 Leconfield
Collins: "born at Leckenfield on the day of St. Saturnius, anno
MCCCCXXII."
> 7.Catherine, born 18 May 1423 Leconfield
Collins: "born at Leckenfield May 18, anno MCCCCX(X)III." I don't
recall why Collins had a parentheses in this date, but there clearly
seems to be something wrong with it. It is biologically impossible
for the Countess of Northumberland to have a child in May 1423, after
giving birth in November 1422.
> 8.George, born 1424 Leconfield
Collins: "was born at Leckenfield on St. Sampson's day, anno
MCCCCXXIV. He was a clergyman; yet he does not appear ever to have
attained to any other preferment but to a prebend in the collegiate
church of Beverley."
Does anyone know what day of the year is St. Sampson's day? That
could help determine when the above Catherine Percy was born.
> 9.Ralph born 11 August 1425 Leconfield
Collins: "Knight, was born at Leckenfield on the day of St. Tiburnicus
(11 Aug.) anno MCCCCXXV. He was, like the rest of his family, a stout
asserter of the Lancastrian interest, to which at last he fell a
martyr: for, being Governor of..." My notes end here - I did not
finish transcribing the rest of Collins info on Sir Ralph.
> 10. Richard born circa 1426/1427 killed in the battle of Towton 29 March
> 1461
Collins: "Knight, was evidently born about 1426, or 1427, although the
date of his birth is omitted in Cavell's Roll. He was involved in the
quarrels and disputes which his brother Lord Egremont had with the
Earl of Salisbury's family; and was slain along with his eldest
brother the 3rd Earl at the battle of Towton-field, fought on Palm
Sunday, 29 Mar 1461. He has commonly thought to have died a bachelor;
but he is now known to have married Catherine, daughter of Sir Henry
Neville, Knt. of Thornton-Bridge in Yorkshire, and widow of William
Fairfax, Esq of Walton in the same county, who died in 31 of Hen. VI
(1453). Whether Sir Richard Percy had any issue by her is not
mentioned."
> 11.William born 7 April 1428 Leconfield
Collins: "was born at Leckenfield, April 7, anno MCCCCXXVIII. He went
into holy orders, and was Chancellor of the University of Cambridge in
1451. The following year he was consecrated Bishop of Carlisle, and
had the temporalities of his bishopric 24 Oct. 1452. He died in
1462."
> 12.Anne born 3 February 14.. at Dunganess.
Collins: "was born at Dunganees, Scotland on February 3, anno MCCCC
(Cavell's Roll only gives the century she was born; but as she lived
to the year 1522, it is most credible that she was one of the youngest
of the 2nd Earl's children, and most probably born after 1428.)"
> She could have been born in 1429 or 1430, and her husband in 1442.? I still
> can't see it.
I have the birthdate of Eleanor (Neville), Countess of Northumberland,
as about 1407, and have her as the third daughter and seventh child of
the Earl of Westmoreland by his second wife Joan Beaufort
(granddaughter of Edward III).
There is an article in GENEALOGIST, N.S., vol. iii, pp. 109-10, which
lists the order of the Earl of Westmoreland's many children.
Since the Cavell Roll only gives the century of Anne Percy's birth,
this is actually corroborative that she was not born close to the time
of her other siblings. Women do have what my grandmother used to call
"change of life babies" - an unexpected child just before they enter
menopause. Assuming Countess Eleanor entered menopause at age 40, I
calculate Anne could have been born anytime up until 1447.
Keep in mind Thomas of Woodstock, born in 1355, was 25 years younger
than the Black Prince, born in 1330. I believe their mother Queen
Philippa of Hainault's birthdate has been determined to have been
1311.
> I am interested to see how much you can add to this list,
> especially as you say that Collins Peerage provided the dates of birth and
> places of birth for Anne and her siblings.
> I hope you mean ALL her siblings, because Cahiers de Saint Louis misses out
> on a few.
Hope this helps, Leo. Best regards, ------Brad Verity
Dennis J. Cunniff
>
>
> > 8.George, born 1424 Leconfield
>
> Collins: "was born at Leckenfield on St. Sampson's day, anno
> MCCCCXXIV. He was a clergyman; yet he does not appear ever to have
> attained to any other preferment but to a prebend in the collegiate
> church of Beverley."
>
> Does anyone know what day of the year is St. Sampson's day? That
> could help determine when the above Catherine Percy was born.
>
St. Samson, presumably, not Sampson. St. Samson's day (i.e., the anniversary of his death) was 28
July, so I don't think this helps rule anything out.
Dennis J. Cunniff
Chris Phillips
> I realised and acknowledged my error. Yes, Eleanor is from the second
wife,
> Joan Beaufort, she may have been the second child of that marriage and
about
> 1400 is perfectly acceptable as a year of birth.
>
> Cahiers de Saint Louis is a collection of 30 publications, produced by the
> late Abbe Jacques Dupont and Jacques Saillot. Sadly, the death of Abbe
> Dupont stopped this effort. as Abbe Dupont was the main person who
produced
> them.
Thanks for the additional information about the "Cahiers de Saint Louis".
That sounds interesting - I'll have to see if they are accessible somewhere
in London.
A few thoughts about the Hungerford problem.
I can see the chronology is a bit awkward, but it doesn't look impossible,
by any means, for Anne to have been born in the late 1430s. I presume
Complete Peerage implies that she did marry Sir Thomas Hungerford in or
about 1460, if the conveyance cited is a marriage settlement, but even
though Sir Thomas' heir wasn't born until 1467, I suppose we have to have
the usual caveats about possible other children who died in infancy. I don't
really see anything to stop Anne having married previously, and even having
left children by such a marriage, except that no record of it is known.
On the chronology, I wonder if the dispensation for Eleanor Neville's first
marriage could give more information on her age (CP vol.2, p.427 says her
husband married "after 23 May 1412, when his marriage was granted [Calendar
of Patent Rolls, 1408-1413, p.401], as a child (disp. dat. Auckland 13 Jan.
1411/2)".
From what Brad Verity posted, it looks as though the dates given in the
"Cahiers de St Louis" come from the Cavell Roll (or from a common source).
The thing that struck me was that whereas the 6 preceding children for whom
the place of birth is given, were born at Leconfield, Anne is born at
Dunganess/Dunganees. I had assumed this was Dungeness in Kent, but the
extract posted by Brad Verity says it was in Scotland. Either way, could
this give us a clue about when Anne was born? If it is really a place in
Scotland, presumably Eleanor was accompanying her husband on a diplomatic
mission, which I suppose is likely to be recorded. Otherwise, is there any
known connection of Dungeness in Kent with the Percys?
I'm more concerned about the description, cited by CP, of Anne as the
daughter of Eleanor, Countess of Northumberland, in 1480. As Leo van de Pas
pointed out, even if not for the fact that there was a different woman
fitting this description alive at the time, why identify Anne by naming her
mother and not her father?
The only possible explanation of this I can think of, consistent with Anne
being the daughter of the second Earl, is if the description in 1480 was
copied from an earlier document concerning the lands in question. (Perhaps
the identification of Thomas Hungerford as the son of Robert Hungerford also
hints at this.) For what it's worth, at the presumed time of their marriage
in 1460, Thomas's father Robert was still alive, the second Earl was dead,
but his widow Eleanor was still alive, so such a description would be
appropriate at that time if Anne were the daughter of the 2nd Earl. (Perhaps
it would be worth checking the conveyance of 1460 cited by CP, to see if by
any chance Thomas and Anne are described in the same terms there.)
Chris Phillips
Andrew S. Kalinkin
>
> > 2.John, born 8 July 1418 Warlsworth, died young
>
> Collins has this John as the third child: "born at Warkworth on St.
> Grimbald's day (8 Jul) anno MCCCCXVIII, and apparently died an
> infant."
> I have the birthdate of Eleanor (Neville), Countess of Northumberland,
> as about 1407, and have her as the third daughter and seventh child of
> the Earl of Westmoreland by his second wife Joan Beaufort
> (granddaughter of Edward III).
Check your dates. It is hardly possible for a woman to have two (or maybe
even three) children at the ripe old age of 11.
Best wishes
Andrew
CE Wood
>snip<
> Does anyone know what day of the year is St. Sampson's day? That
> could help determine when the above Catherine Percy was born.
June 27
Douglas Richardson
leov...@bigpond.com (canberra) wrote in message news:<00b301c1c76a$6b692c00$45ec36cb@leo>...
> Dear Jared,
>
> I do doubt the sources quoted by Douglas Richardson.
>
> As advised by Douglas Richardson, Collins quotes, therefor Collins copied
> and cannot be regarded as a primary source. Collins quotes from a source
> "said to be" extracted from "Registro Monasterij de Whitby", in this
> quotation is shown that Katherine must have married a Grey of Ruthyn (she
> did marry Edmund Grey, 4th Lord Grey of Ruthyn, later 1st Earl of Kent). The
> elder daughter, Joan, a nun, is not mentioned and Anne ---- no indication
> to her marriage. If this manuscript is dated before "before 16 October 1460"
> (Anne's first marriage date) then this is acceptable. In either case, this
> cannot be quoted as a proof of Anne, daughter of the 2nd Earl, being Anne
> Hungerford-Percy.
Collins is not a primary source. The primary source would be the
original Whitby register. My impression is that the Whitby material
dates from the 1400's. As such, it would be contemporary with the
lifetime of Anne (Percy) Hungerford.
> The Visitation of the North, ca.1480-1500, is still at least 40 years,
> possibly 60 years, after the birth of Anne, as she appears to have been born
> about 1440. Is being "quite reliable" enough?
The Visitation of the North c. 1480-1500 is one of the best
visitations ever recorded. The late Dr. Faris told me more than once
how impressed he was with its accuracy. I have similarly found it
quite reliable and quote from it repeatedly in the forthcoming 3rd
edition of Plantagenet Ancestry. The information for the Percy
pedigree in this visitation presumably came from Anne (Percy)
Hungerford's nephew, Henry Percy, 4th Earl, who would have been in a
position to identify Anne's place in the family. This pedigree
indicates that Anne Percy was her father's youngest child, as she is
listed to the far right and bottom of the list of his children. This
agrees with the Whitby Register which lists Anne last in the list of
the 2nd Earl's children.
> Was "Collectanea Topographica et Genealogica" published in 1834? This was
> based "on a pedigree recorded in the reign of Henry VII (1485-1509) and
> therefor between 45 to 69 years after Anne's birth, if she was born in 1440.
I have found some minor errors in the Henry VII pedigrees, but, on the
whole this series of pedigrees was prepared with care and accuracy.
The purpose of this series was evidently to inform King Henry VII as
to how the nobles of his land were related to him and how. I quote
repeatedly from this source in the forthcoming 3rd edition of
Plantagenet Ancestry.
> The third source, quoted by Collins, "Cavell's Roll" was supposed, quoting
> Douglas Richardson, to have provided birth dates and birthplaces for Anne
> and her siblings. So far, no-one has supplied these for "Anne and her
> siblings"
> If the first source had it wrong and the others copied, they may have
> continued an error. We can only wonder why the Complete Peerage ignored or
> rejected the "compelling evidence." I still feel Anne Hungerford-Percy
> is a daughter of the 3rd Earl.
The four sources I've cited were compiled independantly of one
another. Taken together, they provide ample evidence that Anne
(Percy) Hungerford was the daughter of Henry Percy, 2nd Earl.
canberra
Many thanks for the valuation of these sources, it certainly makes it easier
to accept them. There is one more remark I would like to mak,e because you
pointed out something interesting, see below :
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Subject: Evidence for Anne (Percy) Hungerford's parentage
<snip>
> > The Visitation of the North, ca.1480-1500, is still at least 40 years,
> > possibly 60 years, after the birth of Anne, as she appears to have been
born
> > about 1440. Is being "quite reliable" enough?
>
> The Visitation of the North c. 1480-1500 is one of the best
> visitations ever recorded. The late Dr. Faris told me more than once
> how impressed he was with its accuracy. I have similarly found it
> quite reliable and quote from it repeatedly in the forthcoming 3rd
> edition of Plantagenet Ancestry. The information for the Percy
> pedigree in this visitation presumably came from Anne (Percy)
> Hungerford's nephew, Henry Percy, 4th Earl, who would have been in a
> position to identify Anne's place in the family.
====Dear Douglas,
If Anne is a daughter of the 2nd Earl, the 4th Earl is not a nephew but a
great-nephew. I think people always use common sense and what have we in
1480? An identification of Anne Hungerford-Percy "daughter of Eleanor,
Countess of Northumberland". Surely they would refer to living people? Not
to a death person, especially if there is an identical living one? The 2nd
Earl had died in battle in 1455 , the 3rd Earl died in battle in 1461,
Eleanor, wife of the 2nd Earl had died in 1463, some seventeen years before
1480, and Eleanor, Countess of Northumberland, widow of the 3rd Earl, is
still alive.
Would not be common sense to make a reference to a living person? Having
said all that, of course, we do have a reference to the 2nd Earl having a
daughter Anne, but nobody has found a reference to the 3rd Earl having a
daughter Anne, one of the few who maintains that Anne Hungerford-Percy is
daughter of the 3rd Earl is the Complete Peerage, and we should not discount
that. After all, in those days births were not registered.
I hope you realise I am, like you, trying to establish the correct parents
for Anne Hungerford-Percy and, sadly for me, I have not seen anything
convincing either way.
Douglas Richardson
leov...@bigpond.com (canberra) wrote in message news:<002401c1c814$168c9e60$7e068690@leo>...
Anne (Percy) Hungerford would have been the aunt, not great-aunt, of
Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland (died 1489). Henry, 4th
Earl, appears to have been the source of the Percy pedigree found in
the Visitations of the North which was compiled c. 1480-1500. The
pedigree must have been created in his lifetime, as it mentions his
eldest son and heir, Henry, and three daughters, but not his three
younger sons who presumably were not yet born.
> I hope you realise I am, like you, trying to establish the correct parents
> for Anne Hungerford-Percy and, sadly for me, I have not seen anything
> convincing either way.
Yes, I realize you are seeking the truth. In this case, I've
presented four pieces of contemporary evidence which place Anne
(Percy) Hungerford as daughter of Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of
Northumberland. I believe this is more than sufficient. I haven't
found any evidence which places Anne (Percy) Hungerford as the
daughter of Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland.
Brad Verity
> Check your dates. It is hardly possible for a woman to have two (or maybe
> even three) children at the ripe old age of 11.
Very true. Thank you, Andrew. The Neville/Percy families were among
the very first royal/medieval lines I looked at.
I need to find THE GENEALOGIST article about the 1st Earl of
Westmoreland's many children and determine why Eleanor Countess of
Northumberland is listed in my records as the third daughter by the
Earl's second wife.
Regards, -------Brad Verity
Tim Powys-Lybbe
bat...@hotmail.com (Brad Verity) wrote:
Another "for whatever it is worth":
In Swallow's "House of Nevill", pub 1885, he lists all the children of
Ralph Nevill and Joan Beaufort, though in the traditional order of males
then females:
1. Richard, earl of Salisbury
2. William, earl of Kent
3. George, baron Latimer
4. Thomas
5. Robert, bishop of Salisbury then Durham
6. Edward, baron of Bergavenny
7. Cuthbert, d. young
8. Henry, d. young
9. John, d. young
10. Joan, a nun
11. Catherine, duchess of Norfolk
12. Anne, duchess of Buckingham
13. Eleanor, countess of Northumberland <----
14. Cicely, duchess of York
This make her the fourth daughter.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org
canberra
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: Evidence for Anne (Percy) Hungerford's parentage
> My comments are intersperced below. DR
>
<snip>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
> > To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 4:51 AM
> > Subject: Evidence for Anne (Percy) Hungerford's parentage
> >
> > <snip>
Dear Douglas,
No attention has been given to this observation :
I think people always use common sense and what have we in
> > 1480? An identification of Anne Hungerford-Percy "daughter of Eleanor,
> > Countess of Northumberland". Surely they would refer to living people?
Not
> > to a death person, especially if there is an identical living one? The
2nd
> > Earl had died in battle in 1455 , the 3rd Earl died in battle in 1461,
> > Eleanor, wife of the 2nd Earl had died in 1463, some seventeen years
before
> > 1480, and Eleanor, Countess of Northumberland, widow of the 3rd Earl, is
> > still alive.
Douglas Richardson wrote :
Henry, 4th
> Earl, appears to have been the source of the Percy pedigree found in
> the Visitations of the North which was compiled c. 1480-1500. The
> pedigree must have been created in his lifetime, as it mentions his
> eldest son and heir, Henry, and three daughters, but not his three
> younger sons who presumably were not yet born.
Again, in 1480 Eleanor Poynings was the live Countess and Eleanor Nevill the
dead one, why refer to the dead one? Surely that is confusing. If the father
of Anne Hungerford-Percy had been alive, he would have been mentioned, not
the mother.
I haven't
> found any evidence which places Anne (Percy) Hungerford as the
> daughter of Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
Douglas, there have been sources, CP and Paget to mention just two, who make
her daughter of the 3rd Earl, we should not dismiss them that easily.