Megingoz/Meingaud

John Carmi Parsons

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Sep 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/17/98

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I am trying to sort out a series of conflicting statements in my notes
about one Megingoz/Meingaud (Maingaut, etc.), count in the Avalgau (or, in
French works, "de Gueldres") who is stated variously to have died ca 986,
after 986, or possibly as late as 1000. He married Gerberge, who was
most likely a descendant of Wigrich, count in the Bidgau d. 919, whose
wife Cunegunde was a granddaughter of the Carolingian Louis II of France.
It is unclear, however, whether Gerberge was a daughter of Wigrich's son
Gauzlin/Gozelon, count in the Bidgau d. 942 by Uda f. 953 (?dau. of
Gerhard count in Lorraine d. 910 by Uda, dau. of Otto duke of Saxony and
widow of King Zwentibold), or of Gauzlin's son Gottfrid "the Old," count
of Verdun (d. 1005?) by Matilda daughter of Duke Hermann Billung.

Megingoz/Meingaud and Gerberge had at least three children: Gottfrid, who
died in Bohemia in 977, apparently unmarried and with no known issue;
Adelaide, abbess of Villich; and Ermentrude, who was twice married--first
to Heribert, count in Wetterau (of the Swabian ducal line, with a descent
from the Vermandois) and then to a Bavarian count Ratpoto. By Heribert
Ermentrude had three children--Otto "of Hammerstein" (d. 1036), Gerberge
who married Henry of Schweinfurt (d. 1017) and an anonymous daughter who
married Count Frederic I of Luxembourg (d. 1019). From this last marriage
descended as well the counts of Flanders (including Matilda, William the
Conqueror's wife) and the counts of Salm. So Megingoz/Meingaut is on a
good many pedigrees.

My questions revolve around his ancestry. According to Vandekindere, he
was descended from a Meingaut, count in the Wormsgau d. 892 (m. Gisela,
who survived him). This couple were the parents of another Meingaut, also
count in the Wormsgau d. ca 905. Vandekindere's reasoning from this point
is, shall we say, somewhat flexible. It is known from reliable sources
that the children of the Megingoz/Meingaut with whom I'm concerned (d. 986
or later) and the children of Wichmann, count in Hamaland (d. 983) were
*consanguinei*. Vandekindere takes this to mean that Wichmann and "our"
Megingoz were brothers, and since we know that Wichmann was the son of a
Gerberge, dau. of Meginhard *dux* in Frisia d. 898, Vandekindere assumes
that Gerberge was also the mother of "our" Megingoz/Meingaut. QED. But
it doesn't give us the name of Megingoz and Wichmann's father--and in fact
Vandekindere even goes so far as to suggest on chronological grounds that
Wichmann and Megingoz might have been GRANDSONS of the Meingaut who d. 905
and the Gerberge, dau. of Meginhard d. 898. Chronologically speaking, I'd
think this suggestion is well-advised, but Vandekindere gives no data for
the possible intervening generation.

Certainly we have counts named Megingoz/Meingaut as early as the late 8th
century; the first of whom I have note, who fl. 780-83, was a brother of
Charlemagne's third wife Queen Hildegarde, mother of Louis the Pious. Chaume's
*Origines du duche de Bourgogne* then suggests that one Witichinus or Guiguin,
count in the Saosnais d. 844, married a niece of Queen Hildegarde, a dau.
of the queen's brother Gerold, prefect in Bavaria. Guiguin and his unnamed
wife had, according to Chaume, a son Meingaud, count in the Wormsgau fl.
862-81, possibly m. a dau of Conrad I count of Auxerre. This couple had
two sons, of whom Walaho was count in the Wormsgau ca 892 and m. a sister
of Robert the Strong d. 866 (ancestor of the Capetians).

Some suggest that Maingaud, count in the Wormsgau d. 892 was a son of Walaho
and Robert the Strong's sister. Others, however, contend that Maingaud and
Walaho were successive husbands of the same woman. I do assume that the
Maingaud, count in the Wormsgau d ca 905 was the son of the Maingaud who d.
892, but whether the mother was Robert the Strong's sister or some other wife
of Maingaud d. 892 is unclear.

And there remains the problem of the intervening generation Vandekindere
thought might have been there.

Any help will be gratefully appreciated.

John Parsons

Richard Borthwick

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Sep 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/19/98

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There has been quite a bit of recent work which has sought to clarify the
Megingoz/Walaho clan structure. Two recent works in English by Donald C
Jackman are relevant to the this issue. *The Konradiner: A Study in
Genealogical Methodology* (Klostermann: Frankfurt am Main, 1990)
(hereinafter 'TK') and *Criticism and Critique: Sidelights on the
Konradiner* (Prosopographica et Genealogica: Oxford, 1997) (hereinafter
'CC'). Jackman's work is very controversial and very interesting. His
articulation of Meingaud/Walaho clan structure is not (as far as I can tell)
all that controversial but builds on work that has been going on since
Gloeckner's paper "Lorsch und Lothringen, Robertiner und Capetinger" in
*Zeitschrift fur die Geschichte de Oberrheins* 89 (1936/37), 301-354.

A working assumption of this reconstruction is that Levillain was correct in
the following reconstruction:

TABLE 1

Gerold oo Imma
|
___________________________|_______ _ _ _ _
Hildegarde Odo Megingoz etc Hadrian oo Waldrat
| :
| ____________________:_
Louis I Odo William
| |
| ____|_________________
Charles II oo Ermentrude William

Rutpert (III) and Wialdruth were parents of Rutpert (IV) whom Gloechner
identifies as Robert the Strong. Wialdruth (= Waldrat/Wiltrud) is inferred
from other known relationships as the sister of Odo and William in TABLE 1.
It is clear from the sources that Meingaud (I) and Walaho are connected
closely with
king Odo son of Robert the Strong. ES II:10 reports Walaho as a husband of
Robert the Strong's sister and tentatively Meingaud as husband of Robert's
putative sister.

The Robertiner held held rights in the Wormsfeld and it is clear that
Meingaud (II) (murdered in 892) also held these rights. Jackman agrees that
Wialdruth is the dau. of Hadrian, and Hadrian is the brother of Hildegarde
and hence of Megingoz (Meingaud) in TABLE 1. Megingoz thus was an uncle of
Wialdruth. As succession rights would pass first to a male member of a
family (before a cognatic descent, Jackman sees Meingaud (I) as attached to
the Robertiner agnatically i.e. as a son of Rutpert (III) and Wialdruth not
as a son-in-law.

The articulation would then look like this:

TABLE 2
__________ _ _ _ _ _
Megingoz Hadrian oo Waldrat
:
_ _ _:_ _ _____________
Rutpert (III) oo Wialdruth William Odo
|
____________________|_ _ _ _ _ _ _
Walaho oo NN Rutpert (IV) Meingaud (I) oo Rotlind
| |
_ |_ _ _ __________ 2 1 |
Eberhard (I)oo Wiltrud Burkhard oo Gisela oo Meingaud (II)

Jackman argues that Reginlint wife of Burkhard (d.926) duke of Swabia and
Hermann I (d.949) duke of Swabia was the daughter of Meingaud (II) (see CC
pp.40-41).

Burkard (d.905/06) count in the Wormsfeld (cognatic successor of Meingaud
(II) of the Wormsfeld) second husband of Gisela is a known son of Walaho. It
is also known that the Konradiner, Eberhard (I)'s wife was a Wiltrud. It is
also known that a count Burkhard and his sister made a donation of lands in
the Wetterau to Fulda. Also Eberhard (II) (d.c.944) son of Eberhard
(I)(d.902) received the rights in Wormsfeld after the death of count
Burkhard. Hence the identification of Eberhard (II)'s mother, Wiltrud, with
Waltrut sister of a count Burkhard. See CC p.63 n.38 and TK p.230. Evidently
these identifications were first made last century.

The next stage of the reconstruction is to place Meingaud/Megingoz of the
Avelgau who d.998 (this now seems to be the settled date but I have not seen
a discussion of how it was settled). Briefly, the Avelgau rights were held
by the Eberhardiner branch of the Konradiner and Meingaud would have either
through a cognatic or agnatic attachment to the Eberhardiner. His wife
Gerberge's ascendants seem to rule out cognatic connection. His name occurs
in the Eberhardiner (e.g. Eberhard (II)'s grandson Meingaud son of Konrad).
So the connection would appear to be agnatic and the inference is that
Meingaud of Avelgau was son of Eberhard (II) and brother of Eberhard (III).
See CC pp.164-168, 196.

This post is probably already too long so I will skip a discussion of
Gerberga. I was under the (probably mistaken) impression that the identity
of G's immediate ancestors was any longer a matter of debate. [E Hlawitschka
*Die Anfaenge de Hauses Habsburg-Lothringen* (Saarbruecken, 1969), tables
facing 138 and 146; Parisse *Noblesse et chevalerie en lorraine medievale*
(Nancy, 1982) 97; ES VI:129]
Her immediate ascendants are:

>

KHF...@aol.com

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Sep 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/21/98

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In a message dated 9/19/98 11:05:57 PM, rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au writes:

Thank you for that response. As you see, I got a oo in placess what does that
mean?

- Ken
'
Kenneth Harper Finton
Editor/ Publisher
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