Mary (Seymour?), Wife of Francis Cosby of Stradbally (d. 1580)

[Brad Verity]

Per his bio in ODNB, Francis Cosby arrived in Ireland in 1548, and
settled in Queen's County (now Co. Laois), where "his landed base was
the suppressed abbey of Stradbally". The bio goes on to say, "Cosby's
social position was boosted through propitious marriage alliances. His
first wife was Lady Mary Seymour, daughter of the first duke of
Somerset. His son Alexander married Dorcas Sidney, niece of Sir Henry
Sidney, under whose governorship Francis prospered. Catherine, a
daughter of Francis and his second wife, Elizabeth Palmer, married
into the newly settled Moore family, and there were also close ties
with their fellow planters the Hartpoles."

The bio is already incorrect in making Francis's daughter-in-law
Dorcas Sidney a niece of Sir Henry Sidney. Per his own ODNB bio, and
the ODNB bio of his father Sir William, Sir Henry Sidney was the only
son of Sir William.

It looks like the bio is also incorrect in making Francis's first wife
the daughter of the 1st Duke of Somerset. I have Lady Mary Seymour,
daughter of the 1st Duke of Somerset & his second wife Anne Stanhope,
as born about 1544, married 1st, by 1580, as his second wife, Andrew
Rogers, Heir of Bryanston (born about 1551; died 1 December 1601),
eldest son of Sir Richard Rogers of Bryanston & Cecilia Luttrell.
Lady Mary married 2nd, Sir Henry Peyton (died 20 February 1624), son
of Thomas Peyton of Plymouth & Lady Cecily Bourchier. Lady Mary died
s.p. January 1620, and was buried in Westminster Abbey 18 January
1620.

It seems unlikely that the Duke of Somerset had two daughters named
Mary, plus if Francis Cosby was in Ireland by 1548, then chronology
makes it unlikely that his wife was a daughter of the 1st Duke at
all. So who was Francis Cosby's first wife Mary? Was she even a
Seymour?

Cheers, ------Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Feb 28, 4:25 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> It seems unlikely that the Duke of Somerset had two daughters named
> Mary, plus if Francis Cosby was in Ireland by 1548, then chronology
> makes it unlikely that his wife was a daughter of the 1st Duke at
> all.  So who was Francis Cosby's first wife Mary?  Was she even a
> Seymour?

Whoops! Never mind. I see Paul Reed explained this back in 1999 -
there was no first wife of Francis Cosby. He was only married once, to
Elizabeth Palmer. I should've checked the Gen-Med archives before
posting:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/87ef4b7ba3172c0a?hl=en

Another 18th-century herald (the Ulster King of Arms, no less) signing
off on a bogus pedigree to try and bolster a family's bloodline. The
Cosbys must've offered him a lot of money (or some great sex) in
exchange. It's a real shame that ODNB has perpetuated this Cosby
myth, though.

Cheers, ----Brad

[Wjhonson]

Moooooooo

http://books.google.com/books?id=zLdH2j7mTMMC&dq=Alexander%20Cosby%201596&pg=PA180#v=onepage&q=Alexander%20Cosby%201596&f=true

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[Wjhonson]

And an M.I.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Na3PAAAAMAAJ&dq=sydney%20of%20otford%20dorcas&pg=PA214#v=onepage&q&f=true

-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
To: royaldescent <royald...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 28, 2013 6:22 pm
Subject: Re: Mary (Seymour?), Wife of Francis Cosby of Stradbally (d. 1580)


Moooooooo

http://books.google.com/books?id=zLdH2j7mTMMC&dq=Alexander%20Cosby%201596&pg=PA180#v=onepage&q=Alexander%20Cosby%201596&f=true








-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 28, 2013 4:35 pm
Subject: Re: Mary (Seymour?), Wife of Francis Cosby of Stradbally (d. 1580)

[Brad Verity]

On Feb 28, 6:50 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> And an M.I.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=Na3PAAAAMAAJ&dq=sydney%20of%20otford...

At least part of that Sidney article in Gent. Mag. is not correct.
Per Blomefield's 'History of Norfolk', Thomas Sidney of Walsingham
died in 1544, not 1542, and was the brother, not the son, of Nicholas
Sidney:
"The site of the priory was sold by King Henry VIII. for 90l. to
Thomas Sydney, Gent. of Walsingham Parva, and Agnes his wife; the
grant is dated November 7, ao. 31, with the churchyard, orchards,
gardens, &c. and he was found to die seized of it in 1544...It appears
by an inquisition, on his death, that he was styled Gentleman, and was
2d son of William Sydney, Esq. by Thomasine his wife, daughter and
heir of John Barrington, Esq. widow of William Lunsford of Battle in
Sussex, and brother to Nicholas Sydney ancestor to the Earls of
Leicester"
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=78541

So none of the Sidneys in that pedigree in the Gent. Mag. article are
descended from Edward I. Which is a relief to me, as it means I don't
have to add them into my database.

Cheers, -----Brad

[Wjhonson]

The Sydney family of which we were speaking in this thread Dorcas the wife of Alexander Crosby, is apparently descended from the Lords St John. Do you know exactly where this fits?

-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 28, 2013 9:40 pm
Subject: Re: Mary (Seymour?), Wife of Francis Cosby of Stradbally (d. 1580)

[Brad Verity]

On Feb 28, 9:46 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> The Sydney family of which we were speaking in this thread Dorcas the wife of Alexander Crosby, is apparently descended from the Lords St John.  Do you know exactly where this fits?

Sorry, Will, I don't. I don't have many of the Lords St John in my
database. I have Thomas Poynings, 5th Lord St John of Basing
(1357-1429) because his second wife Philippa Mortimer is a great-
granddaughter of Edward III. But they had no children. And I have
Sir Hugh Poynings of Chawton, son & heir apparent of the 5th Lord St
John by his 1st wife, because he married Eleanor Welles, descended
from Edward I. But his three daughters and co-heirs were named Joan,
Constance & Alice. No Isabel, and none married to a William Sidney.

Hopefully someone else can help you with this family.

Cheers, ----Brad

[Wjhonson]

Thomas 2nd Lord Poynings, 6th Lord St John of Basing had three wives
By the second one, as you state, he had no children
But by his first wife Joan Unknown he had his heir Hugh but also had daughters
I wonder if our Elizabeth doesn't fit here

P.S. on your Sydney line, which I had not had, I now have that Humphrey was an adult in 1508, and was yet living in 1525. His son William, is called his heir in 1532 and was also at that time an adult. It's not clear that his father was *dead* in 1532, only that William is called his "heir" in a grant.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 28, 2013 10:10 pm
Subject: Re: Mary (Seymour?), Wife of Francis Cosby of Stradbally (d. 1580)

[John Higgins]

If you're chasing after the Poynings family for this connection to
Cosby, you're probably barking up the wrong tree - in more ways than
one.

The Sydney/St. John marriage involved a member of the family of St.
John, not of Poynings. And if the connection of Cosby to Thomas
Sydney of Walsingham can be verified, his place in the Sydney family
is apparently via his father William's 2nd marriage to Thomasine
Barrington, as Brad has noted previously - not by William's first
marriage to Isabel St. John.

The information in the Gentleman's Magazine article is almost
certainly based on a concocted pedigree drawn up by Robert Cooke,
Clarenceux King of Arms, at the direction of the 1st Earl of Leicester
of the Sydney family. See footnote A in CP 7:553 sub Leicester, which
indicates where the fraudulent pedigree may be found - and describes
Cooke as the "rascally King of Arms".

[Wjhonson]

I do understand John the "St John", her father is called "Lord St John". My opinion is that so far, from a chronologic standpoint, the "Lord St John" was a Poynings, not a St John surname. And later writers have gotten this confused. That is, if this connection exists at all as you point out.

On another note, these lands that Dorcas is stated to have been granted, apparently were given her because she had been of the bedchamber to Queen Bess, I suppose that could be followed up. And these grants were from the Queen directly to Dorcas. So that seems to mean she doesn't have to be her father's heiress at all.

This article *does* remove the obstacle of how she was related to the Sydney family in general and was not the "niece", but only a "cousin" (kinsman). I liked that part for resolving this question.

Those grants should be extant, maybe they will reveal something more.

[John Higgins]

On Feb 28, 4:34 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 28, 4:25 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It seems unlikely that the Duke of Somerset had two daughters named
> > Mary, plus if Francis Cosby was in Ireland by 1548, then chronology
> > makes it unlikely that his wife was a daughter of the 1st Duke at
> > all.  So who was Francis Cosby's first wife Mary?  Was she even a
> > Seymour?
>
> Whoops!  Never mind.  I see Paul Reed explained this back in 1999 -
> there was no first wife of Francis Cosby. He was only married once, to
> Elizabeth Palmer.  I should've checked the Gen-Med archives before

> posting:http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/87ef4b7ba31...

>
> Another 18th-century herald (the Ulster King of Arms, no less) signing
> off on a bogus pedigree to try and bolster a family's bloodline.  The
> Cosbys must've offered him a lot of money (or some great sex) in
> exchange.  It's a real shame that ODNB has perpetuated this Cosby
> myth, though.
>
> Cheers,                 ----Brad

It isn't just ODNB that has "perpetuated this Cosby myth". The
publishers of the Burke's volumes did their bit too - first giving the
right version and then reverting to the wrong version.

The family of Cosby of Stradbally is covered in the 1912 edition of
Burke's Landed Gentry of Ireland and also more recently in BLGI's
successor Burke's Irish Family Records, published in 1976. BLGI 1912
shows only the single marriage of Francis Cosby, to Elizabeth Palmes -
no mention of Mary Seymour. But BLGI in 1976 includes the Seymour
marriage and assigns all but one of Francis Cosby's children to Mary
Seymour.

All is not lost, however, for a royal descent for colonial governor
William Cosby. Francis Cosby's grandson Richard (son of Alexander
Cosby and the mysterious Dorcas Sydney) married Elizabeth, daughter of
Sir Robert Pigott of Dysert. Both BLGI 1912 and BIFR 1976 indicate
that Elizabeth Pigott is descended from Edward I. Also, the grandson
of Richard Cosby and Elizabeth Pigott was another Alexander Cosby who
married Elizabeth, daughter of Henry Lestrange of Moystown. This
latter family is descended from le Strange of Hunstanton, and there is
almost certainly a royal descent (or at least a Plantagenet one) there.

[Wjhonson]

I believe I have found the *origin* of the claim that Alexander Cosby was the nephew of Henry Sydney.

It turns out the Henry Harrington, Sydney's actual nephew, and Alexander Cosby, his not-nephew, were both taken prisoner at the same time. Imagine if you will Henry Sydney writing to say "my nephew... prisoner... etc etc" and then a writer saying oh see he is speaking of Alexander Cosby, known to be a prisoner. When really he was speaking of Henry Harrington, the other prisoner. Makes sense to me.

http://books.google.com/books?id=rSIvAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA302