origin of Rurikids, princely families of Ruthenia and Russia - newest results
M Sjostrom
* two Gagarins
* one Khilkov
* Vadbolsky
* Lobanov-Rostovsky
* Shakhovskoy
* Kropotkin
* Rzhevsky
* Putyatin
* Myshetsky
* Puzyna
whose Y DNA shows they belong to the same N1C1 agnatic lineage. This weight
of numbers is a strong support for the Finno-Ugric genetic origin of
Rurikids.
N1C1 y dna is the typical Finnic haplo
genealogy-traced Rurikid descendants, from widely varying branches (two
Gagarins, Khilkov, Vadbolsky, Puzyna, Kropotkin, Lobanov-Rostovsky,
Shakhovskoy, Myshetsky, Rzhevsky, Putyatin), whose Y DNA shows they belong
to the same N1C1 agnatic lineage. This weight of numbers is a strong support
for the Finno-Ugric genetic origin of Rurikids.
----
whereas,
* Volkonsky
* Obolensky
* Szuyski
* Czetwertynski
are different. Theirs does not match under any contingency with the bigger
bunch.
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* Solomin is perhaps inconclusive - it may just be calibration. His genetic
distance is not that big, it's only 8
and actually, attested princes Puzyna and Myshetsky are about as
distanced...
So, Solomin could be added to those good matches.
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the weight of numbers already earlier said that Rurikids are N1C1, Finnic
This many sample persons, eleven, from so varying branches, is now clear
enough.
There's practically no way how that identical y dna can have come but the
natural and recorded reason, Vladimir monomakh being their common
forefather.
Actually, this already gives relatively solid batch of data for calibration
of the mutation number.
These guys' pedigrees are and the branching tree is so well attested to the
relevant century, there's practically no doubt about when roughly -in what
generation- the separation of each of these branches took place.
--------------------
Puzyna and Myshetsky are traditionally believed to have come from an agnatic
first cousin of Vladimir monomakh - though there might be a bit vagueness
which may allow for some other stem in those generations of the family.
Putyatin, Rzhevsky and Kropotkin are believed to come from separate sons of
the eldest son of Vladimir monomakh. A bit vagueness, though.
Khilkov and the two Gagarins are descended from a son of Vsevolod 'big
nest', himself son of Yuri Dolgoruki, who was younger son of Vladimir
monomakh.
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In my opinion, the Rurikid project thus far, has treated wrongly those
matches who have only a distance of 10 or about [it's too tightness of
calibration]. Because, this many samples from attested princes, who all have
a distance of 8 or 10 or so, cannot likely all be wrong.
The calibration needs correcting. Take in Solomin, Myshetsky, Puzyna,
Kropotkin, and so, and to make a new average on that basis. We'd rather see
that there just was some possibly rare occurrence of not so many mutations
in some lineage (such as, Gagarin) than should been.
lostcopper
Aha, M.! So we ARE related! Bronwen
M Sjostrom
finding actual deeper data (prosopographies and such too) about Rurikid
princes, and useful as to needs over the dark centuries of Mongol troubles
(1200s-long to the 1400s):
Has anybody read this, and what's the assessments:
Valenty Voitovich (2006), "Kniazha doba na Rusi. Portety eliti",
Bila Tserkva, Ukraine, 2006
= roughly: The princely period in Ruthenia. Biographies of the princes
utilizing the Wolff armorial
and included some recent discoveries made by Natalyia Yakovenko
M Sjostrom
Gediminas, ruler of Lithuania and Belarusia, and on the other hand of Rurik
the varyag, Duke of Old Ladoga and Novgorod,
and that common forefather lived perhaps a couple of millennia ago. He was
quite obviously Finnic.
Perhaps and probably, it would be useful to adopt a designated name to speak
about this common ancestor.
As he was Finnic, there is a slavic word which would neatly serve to express
the likely profile of this man. I am suggesting the word, or name:
proto-Tšuudi
Tshuudi is a term which to its bigger extent, refers to all sorts of finnic
tribes and ethnicities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chud
and in those languages themselves, the word is rendered as: tšuudi
I guess Mr Tshuudi would be an interpretation of that designation.
some could then use endearment forms, Mr* Chukhonets*, and of his daughters
and sisters and other female issue, Ms *Chukhonka*
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king Gediminas, ruler of Lithuania and Belarusia; and
(as taken from Vladimir monomakh) Rurik the Varangian, Duke of Novgorod,
inevitably shared a common male-line ancestor a few millennia ago.
They both belong to the Finnic haplogroup N1C1. The number of mutations
between them, means Gediminas was NOT a direct agnatic descendant of Rurik.
Their last common forefather cannot easily have been much later than living
in around 500 CE - and probably was centuries earlier. Two millennia ago, as
average estimation.
Their last mutual forefather apparently was some Finnic man, living before
500 CE.
Someone whose progeny produced at least two lineages:
* a Finnic branch, moved by some route from east of Baltic Sea, to the coast
of Roslagen near today Stockholm, and got germanized, adopting names such as
Hrörek - and in about 800s, gave birth to Ryurik,a Varangian who adventured
himself to Ladoga and Novgorod
* a Finnic branch from east of Baltic Sea, which settled somewhere in or
near today Lithuania, and got Balticized, moving to use the Indo-European
proto-lithuanian language - this branch, in about 1200s, gave birth to
Gediminas, a Lithuanian