Descendants of Sultan Jem

[wbld....@gmail.com]

I would like to learn more about the descendants of Jem (or Cem), third son of the Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_Cem

Wikipedia says he married a daughter of Niccolo Orsini, which sounds like total rubbish.

On p. 29 of ‘Jem Sultan’ (2004), John Freely says that “in 1480 another of Jem’s concubines gave birth to his second son, Murat, who remained in Konya with his mother, whose name is unrecorded.”

On p. 312 of the same, Freely says:

“Jem’s only other surviving son, Prince Murat, fled from Cairo to Rhodes, because he feared, with good reason, that the Mamluks would surrender him to Beyazit, who would kill him just as he had executed his brother Oğuzhan. Marino Sanudo says that on 5 December 1516 an ambassador of the Mamluk sultan came to Rhodes to demand the surrender of Murat, but the knights refused outright. Murat was given the Chateau de Fondo as his residence in Rhodes, and he showed his gratitude by converting to Roman Catholicism, changing his name to Pierre Mehmet Sayd. Pope Alexander VI created the Principate de Sayd in 1492 as a papal fief for Pierre Mehmet, who was named Viscomte de Sayd by King Ferrantino, as well as being made a patrician of Rome by the Roman Senate. Pierre Mehmet married an Italian woman named Maraia Concetta Doria, who bore him four children, a son named Jem and three daughters, whose names are unknown. Little Jem, the grandson of Jem Sultan, was baptized and took the name Niccolo, and eventually inherited his father’s title of Viscomte de Sayd.”

Does anyone know the names and fates of Pierre Mehmet’s three daughters? Did any of them marry and have children? I am particularly interested to learn if any of Pierre Mehmet’s descendants married into Italian or European noble families. Is there any published family tree of the Principe de Sayd or Viscomte de Sayd? Lastly does anyone know what sources were used to compile the tree on this website:

https://www.maltagenealogy.com/libro%20d'Oro/said.html

I am suspicious of the tree shown above, particularly the early generations.


Many thanks,

Will

[Peter Stewart]

This looks like the kind of fantasy that is depressingly far from uncommon.

According to the Encyclopaedia of Islam: "Djem's will was fulfilled by
Bayezid II (an official record shows that his daughter Gawhar Malik
Sultan was honored by the Sultan with presents in Ramadan 909/February
1504 ... His son Murad, however, who took refuge in Rhodes, was captured
during the conquest of the Island and executed with his son on 8 Safar
929/27 December 1522. Murad's wife and two daughters were sent to
Istanbul (Ferldun, i, 539; Thuasne, 389)."

Peter Stewart

[wbld....@gmail.com]

> This looks like the kind of fantasy that is depressingly far from uncommon.
>
> According to the Encyclopaedia of Islam: "Djem's will was fulfilled by
> Bayezid II (an official record shows that his daughter Gawhar Malik
> Sultan was honored by the Sultan with presents in Ramadan 909/February
> 1504 ... His son Murad, however, who took refuge in Rhodes, was captured
> during the conquest of the Island and executed with his son on 8 Safar
> 929/27 December 1522. Murad's wife and two daughters were sent to
> Istanbul (Ferldun, i, 539; Thuasne, 389)."
>
> Peter Stewart

Oh dear. I thought there might be a glimmer of truth in it, clearly not. Many thanks for your decisive correction.

Will

[D. R. R.]

Some of the folks over at Ancestry have looked to the link between Descendants of Sultan Jem and the surname de Turk. The most clearly expressed reason for this link is summarized here:

https://historyeducator.wordpress.com/2013/08/12/adventures-in-family-history-research/

In brief the family legend of the De Turks seems to fit, albeit with considerable adjustment of dates the the history of of Sultan Cem:

“The DeTurk family, or rather the name of DeTurk, may be traced by history and tradition to the year 1105 A.D. and is said to be of oriental origin. From a letter, written in German, and the coat of arms of the DeTurk family in the possession of Mrs. Ella Baer, Kutztown, Penna….is found the following data of the family DeTurk, their origin and dispersion, which according to the letter, is from the records in the libraries of Versailles and Paris.”…..

“The letter reads as follows: ‘The DeTurk family is of oriental origin. The progenitor of this family was brought to France by Count Kaimund of Toulouse from Palestine, where he was taken prisoner in the year 1105 A.D. He was a Turkish Emir, that is a prince, and his name was Hayraddin Silodin. In France, however, he assumed the name of Arnulph Le Turk, that is Arnulph, the Turk. He was knighted and admitted into the nobility. He bore on his shield as well as on his helmet a lion holding the sun, the sun signifying the diety of the Turks, the lion valor or strength. The present coat of arms of the family is made up of this shield and helmet bearing. King Francis I renewed the grant to Reginald LeTurk. The copy of this grant at Nismes of 1529 is still to be found in the archives of Paris.’”[1]


I am posting this not because I support it as true or that I have further information on this link. It does however seem directly relevant to this discussion group. It would seem the link needs to be made between Sultan Jem and one of his children and the De Turk surname.

[taf]

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 6:22:19 AM UTC-7, D. R. R. wrote:

> Some of the folks over at Ancestry have looked to the link between
> Descendants of Sultan Jem and the surname de Turk. The most clearly
> expressed reason for this link is summarized here:

> In brief the family legend of the De Turks seems to fit, albeit with
> considerable adjustment of dates the the history of of Sultan Cem:

There is no relationship between this origin tale and Sultan Turk. As far as I can tell, they are two completely distinct fictions.

> “The DeTurk family, or rather the name of DeTurk, may be traced by history
> and tradition to the year 1105 A.D. and is said to be of oriental origin.
> From a letter, written in German, and the coat of arms of the DeTurk family
> in the possession of Mrs. Ella Baer, Kutztown, Penna….is found the following
> data of the family DeTurk, their origin and dispersion, which according to
> the letter, is from the records in the libraries of Versailles and
> Paris.”…..

This is a classic trope in family history - citing a letter, as if the fact that someone put a legend on paper imbues it with a greater sense of reliability. And the fact that the writer once went to some libraries - reliability by association. Somehow the proponents of these tales get it in their head that libraries only contain accurate information.

> “The letter reads as follows: ‘The DeTurk family is of oriental origin.
> The progenitor of this family was brought to France by Count Kaimund of
> Toulouse from Palestine,

OCR error? This is Raimond of Toulouse.

> where he was taken prisoner in the year 1105 A.D. He was a Turkish Emir,
> that is a prince, and his name was Hayraddin Silodin. In France, however,
> he assumed the name of Arnulph Le Turk, that is Arnulph, the Turk. He was
> knighted and admitted into the nobility. He bore on his shield as well as
> on his helmet a lion holding the sun, the sun signifying the diety of the
> Turks, the lion valor or strength. The present coat of arms of the family
> is made up of this shield and helmet bearing.

Except there is no evidence of the use of coats of arms in France this early.

> King Francis I renewed the grant to Reginald LeTurk. The copy of this grant
> at Nismes of 1529 is still to be found in the archives of Paris.’”[1]

This is a typical late-medieval fiction. It would not surprise me if Francis made such a grant, or even that it was represented at the time as a reaffirmation of events 400 years before, but that that would be just overreaching family tradition, just like some of the fantastical pedigrees seen in some of the English visitation of this era.

> I am posting this not because I support it as true or that I have further
> information on this link. It does however seem directly relevant to this
> discussion group. It would seem the link needs to be made between Sultan
> Jem and one of his children and the De Turk surname.

There really is no basis for believing there is such a connection, and as Peter pointed out earlier in this thread, good reason to dismiss it.

And 'De Turk' takes the form of a toponymic, while 'le Turk' is an ethnonym - they are not as similar as they appear and it is just as likely that De Turk derives from some place name that due to superficial similarity, ended up drifting to the common English word 'Turk'. I think it likely that the De Turks had no Turkish blood at all.

taf

[D. R. R.]

On Saturday, December 17, 2016 at 5:34:40 AM UTC-7, wbld...@gmail.com wrote:

https://historyeducator.wordpress.com/2013/08/12/adventures-in-family-history-research/

'"A proposed solution: Hayraddin Silodin did not exist, at least under that name or as my ancestor. The boy born to Philippine in 1484 was named Arnulph and given the last name LeTurk to honor his father. Arnulph sired Reginald, who became mayor of Nimes (or Nismes as stated in the assorted family stories) and inherited his father’s coat of arms and shield. LeTurk becomes DeTurk when the family flees France after the revocation of the Edict of Nantes and settles in present-day Germany, joining the migration to New York in 1709 and settling in Berks County a few years later (where Johannes Keim settled with his wife Katharine DeTurk Keim)."

Professor Karen Guenther has a testable hypothesis. Tests in this case would be investigations of the facts around the birth of Philippine's son Arnulph, his descendants and their surnames. Modern DNA testing would allow further tests of Y chromosomes.

[D. R. R.]

Looks like someone is involved in the testing of the Y chromosome of Turk and similar surnames:

https://www.familytreedna.com/project-join-request.aspx?group=Turk

[Peter Stewart]

I have no idea where this "le Turk/de Turk" fantasy originated, but I
can tell you that the nexus between Malta and Sicily is fiction central
for delusions of genealogical grandeur, including alleged descents from
Jem Sultan.

Someone rejoicing in the name Charles Vassallo-Said, currently heir to
the claim for primogeniture in descent from this individual and to a
plethora of princely titles along with the absurd pretense of being a
"count of the Byzantine empire" and representative heir of the Lusignans
of Cyprus, runs an AirBNB in a rather insalubrious part of Sydney, where
you can stay under his exalted roof for a bargain price - see
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newslocal/western-sydney-airbnb-hosts-welcome-travellers-to-explore-sydney-beyond-the-beaches/news-story/8250a5896e7252e4c35abae25567ed42.

Peter Stewart