Maternity of Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley
Kevin Bradford
Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley, Knt., [ob. 1403], of Warwickshire, has been assigned two different mothers, as seen in Douglas Richardson's texts, _Plantagenet ancestry_, p. 651, & _Magna Carta ancestry_ , p. 816.
"Beatrice Brewes, daughter of Peter de Brewes, Knt., of Whitford, Devon, by Joan, daughter of Nicholas de Percy." --PA3:651
"He [Ralph Shirley] married before 1342 Joan de Percy, daughter of Nicholas de Percy...they had no known issue. He married (2nd) about 1359 Joan Howard, daughter of John Howard, Knt., of East Winch and Wiggenhall, Norfolk..." The list of the children of this 2nd marriage includes Beatrice Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley. --MCA:814
In my files, recently moved and unable to be located at the time I compose this message, are copies of an article on the Braose family [Register 150:315-24]. Perhaps this source may be able to enlighten which of the above claims are actually correct.
Best,
Kevin
Plantagenet Genealogy & Biography: http://home.earthlink.net/~plantagenet60/plantagenet01.htm
Kevin Bradford
K
WJho...@aol.com
planta...@earthlink.net writes:
<< Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley, Knt., [ob. 1403], of Warwickshire,
has been assigned two different mothers, as seen in Douglas Richardson's texts,
_Plantagenet ancestry_, p. 651, & _Magna Carta ancestry_ , p. 816.
"Beatrice Brewes, daughter of Peter de Brewes, Knt., of Whitford, Devon, by
Joan, daughter of Nicholas de Percy." --PA3:651 >>
Your correction is now live.
Will Johnson
Doug Thompson
19802713.112812251...@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net,
Kevin Bradford at planta...@earthlink.net wrote on 01/10/05 12:21 am:
> Fellow Genealogists:
>
> Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley, Knt., [ob. 1403], of Warwickshire, has
> been assigned two different mothers, as seen in Douglas Richardson's texts,
> _Plantagenet ancestry_, p. 651, & _Magna Carta ancestry_ , p. 816.
Kevin
This is an example of Douglas Richardson's speculation which is
unfortunately presented as if it were fact.
There is no evidence for any second marriage of Peter de Brewes. Neither is
there any evidence that John Howard of East Winch had a daughter Joan.
The only known candidate for Beatrice's mother is Peter's first wife, Joan
(de Percy). But of course it is *possible* that she died and Peter took
another wife. No evidence though.
Richardson's method of presentation of his sources in his books covers the
fact that some of his "facts" have no sources at all!
Doug Thompson
--------------
History and Genealogy of the Braose Family
http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thompson/BraoseWeb/index1.htm (Genealogy)
http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thompson/BraoseWeb/stage.htm (History)
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
Please find below a copy of a post in the archives written by Paul
Mackenzie of Australia. This post dicusses the evidence regarding the
identity of Beatrice Brewes' mother, Joan Howard, wife of Peter de
Brewes. The chief evidence is a window in the church of Wiston, Sussex
commemorating Lady Joan de Brewes, which shows the Brewes arms impaled
with the Howard arms. Mr. Mackenzie states: "I think it is safe to
conclude that Joan Howard was Robert Howard's sister and that she
married Peter de Brewes of Wiston."
I agree with Mr. Mackenzie.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + +
COPY OP PAUL MACKENZIE'S POST
From: "Paul Mackenzie" <paul.macken...@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Annys de Brewes & Joan de Brewes
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:19:32 +1000
<royalances...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1103181725.1...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Dear Paul ~
>
> >
> Insofar as the evidence of the identity of Agnes, wife of Peter de
> Brewes, goes, I know you're aware of the the window in the Wiston
> church which commemorates Lady Agnes de Brewes and Lady Joan de Brewes.
> The term "lady" in this period means these women were the wife of a
> knight. Without studing the matter deeply, I would guess that this
> Agnes was the mother of Peter de Brewes the younger, and that Joan is
> Peter's wife. I know Peter de Brewes, the younger, was certainly a
> knight. I have no doubt that Peter, Sr., was as well. If so, the
> names and the station of these ladies would fit the facts we have for
> this family.
>
> Agnes' part of the window displays two coats of arms, Azure crusilly a
> lion rampant or [BREWES], impaling Checky or and azure a fess gules
> [CLIFFORD]. If this window commemorates the mother of Peter de
> Brewes' mother (as I think likely), then I think we can safely assume
> that Agnes was a Clifford.
>
> The arms of Roger de Clifford the father are found on Brian Timms'
> great website (http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/CamdenD1.html). They
> exactly match the arms found on the Agnes de Brewes' part of the
> window.
>
> As for the second part of the window which commemorates Lady Joan de
> Brewes, this part likewise displays two coats of arms, Azure crusilly a
> lion rampant or [ BREWES], impaling Gules a bend between six crosslets
> fitchy argent. In an earlier post, you identified the second arms as
> being those of the Howard family. However, I suspect they are
> actually the arms of Lady Joan de Brewes' Percy family, not the Howard
> family. Unfortunately, I'm unable to confirm my suspicion, as I can
> not find a sample of the arms of Joan de Brewes' father, Nicholas de
> Percy. This, of course, presumes that Joan de Brewes' parentage has
> been correctly identified from other sources.
> Seasons Greetings, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
> Website: www.royalancestry.net
Thanks Doug for you insight on this matter.
The actual memorial window refers to "Pp. Dame Annys de Brewes"
and "Pp. Dame Joan de Brewes".
Also, I found the following from "The dictionary of Heraldry" by Joseph
Forster.
"Nicholas de Percy bore at the battle of Boroughbridge 1322, undee (6)
argent and azure"
whereas
Howard family --Duke of Norfolk--- bore "gules, on a bend between six
crosses
fitchee argent" ( The date this was augmented was not clear). Early
Howard
family members had variations of these arms. So it does seem that the
arms
are referring to the Howard family.
Your comments concerning that "Dame", namely "Lady", is referring to
the
wife
of a knight may be extremely important.
As I understand the matter, there is only two de Brewes males that were
knights and were directly associated with Wiston. Namely Peter de
Brewes Knt d1378 and his son John de Brewes Knt d1426. The third one
was possibly Peter de Brewes Knt d1312 of Tetbury whose wife was Agnes
the lady in question. Whilst Peter de Brewes of Tetbury was never in
possession of Wiston it has been argued that the reference to "Annys"
is a reference to his wife "Agnes", and this memorial is a dedication
to her
There are numerous references [7][8] connecting John de Brewes with one
Robert Howard knight. Apparently John de Brewes and Robert Howard
abducted Margery de Nerford the wife of John de Brewes. Margery
Nerford was at that time seeking a divorce from John de Brewes. John's
father, Peter
de Brewse had been granted [1] the wardship of Margery together with
her
marriage
in 1364. She was 5 years at the time[2]. It thus seems that John de
Brewes'
first wife was Margery de Nerford. It appears Margery Nerford obtained
her divorce sometime after 1380 as in 1426 we have the same John de
Brewes
as being married to one Margaret daugther of Thomas Ponyngez knight
lord
Seynt John.
Margery apparently died in 1417 when her inheritances were conveyed to
her
cousin
Lord Cobham [9]
We also have a Inq. post Mortem of Alice late the wife of John Howard
in 1374 [3]. In which it is mentioned that
"Garboldecham. The manor called "Uphalle" held of Mary de Sancto
Paulo,
countess of Penbroch, as of her manor of Hokham, by service of one
knight's
fee and that about the feast of the translation of St. Thomas the Marty
she
enfeoffed Peter de Brewes, knight John de Herlyng, Walter Pekke, parson
of the church of Garboldecham and Thomas Caus of Hokham, of the above
manors, and the feoffees have been in possession ever since.
She died on the Monday before the Navity of St. Mary, 1373. Robert
Howard, her son,aged 30 years or more, is her heir."
I think it is safe to conclude that Joan Howard was Robert Howard's
sister and that she married Peter de Brewes of Wiston. She could
not have married his son John as he was already married to Margery
Nerford and seemed intent on keeping the marriage intact. Thus we
have Peter de Brewes marrying firstly Joan Percy and secondly marrying
Joan Howard daughter of Alice and John Howard.
We are also told that the Peter de Brewes' wife died in 1368 [5].
Whilst there is substantive evidence that his wife did die in 1368/69
there is no reference to her name. It has been assumed in the past
that this was Joan Percy. We know Joan de Brewes (Percy) was
alive in 1356. The enfeoffment of Alice Howard's properties in 1369
seems to suggest that Peter was married to Joan Howard by 1369.
Thus we may conclude that it was Joan Percy who died in 1367/68
and Peter de Brewes married Joan Howard shortly thereafter.
John de Brewes had two other brothers named
Richard and Thomas. However, they do not seem to enter into the
equation as they were not knights and also were
not lords of the manor. Thus in view of Doug's Richardsons' comments
any of their wifes would not be designated by the term "Dame" and so
can be discounted.
We are thus left with the Dame Annys de Brewes nee Clifford.
This where the going gets tough!!! She could also have been married
to Peter de Brewes of Wiston, but this seems unlikely. It has been
suggested that this name should be read as Agnes and consequently
may be a dedication to Peter de Brewes of Wiston mother, and this
has been suggested is Agnes de Brewes of Tetbury.
Any comments and criticism would be
appreciated.
[1]Cal. Pat. 1361-1364 p441
[2]CIPM Vol 11 p429,430
[3]CIPM Vol 13 p 267
[4] Cal.Close 1374-1377 p158
[5] Sussex Arch. Collections Vol 53 p 144 Vol 54 p 146
[6] CIPM Vol 14 p191,192
[7] Cal. Pat. 1377-1381 p 260, 299,301,307,308,
309, 311,374
[8] Cal. Close 1377-1381 p 222,223
[9] Blomefields
[10] Cal. Close 1354-1360 page 325-326
Kind Regards and Seasons Greetings
Paul Mackenzie
Doug Thompson
Richardson royala...@msn.com at royala...@msn.com wrote on 01/10/05
5:24 pm:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Please find below a copy of a post in the archives written by Paul
> Mackenzie of Australia. This post dicusses the evidence regarding the
> identity of Beatrice Brewes' mother, Joan Howard, wife of Peter de
> Brewes. The chief evidence is a window in the church of Wiston, Sussex
> commemorating Lady Joan de Brewes, which shows the Brewes arms impaled
> with the Howard arms. Mr. Mackenzie states: "I think it is safe to
> conclude that Joan Howard was Robert Howard's sister and that she
> married Peter de Brewes of Wiston."
>
> I agree with Mr. Mackenzie.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> Website: www.royalancestry.net
Douglas
I repeat the substance of my post.
1. There is no evidence for any second marriage of Peter de Brewes.
2. Neither is there any evidence that John Howard of East Winch had a
daughter Joan.
Much as I respect the vast amount of genuine research done by Paul, I am
sure that he too would recognise that this conclusion has to go under the
heading of "Speculation" rather than "Fact" and has no place in a work which
purports to be authoritative.
It is never safe to conclude something which has no evidence to support it.
Doug
Kevin Bradford
Window blazons are inconclusive genealogical evidences, when unaccompanied by primary documentation. At best, these provide *hints.* The wording of Paul Mackenzie's commentary is clear enough: he's merely making an educated guess: "I think it is safe to conclude," roughly translated, really means, "We haven't got it in the bag, yet."
Best,
Kevin
Kevin Bradford
Your comments are appreciated.
CP 2:34 footnote (f) gives Peter's wife as "Joan," with no distinction as to her identity, either as a Percy or a Howard. The citations in Mr. Richardson's footnotes in PA3 and MCA do not indicate a source for either the "Percy" or "Howard" attributions for either supposed wife of Piers de Brewes.
Until primary evidence is produced, there's proof of one wife only, named Joan, with presently unknown parentage.
Best,
Kevin
Plantagenet Genealogy & Biography: http://home.earthlink.net/~plantagenet60/plantagenet01.htm
<There is no evidence for any second marriage of Peter de Brewes. Neither is
there any evidence that John Howard of East Winch had a daughter Joan.
<The only known candidate for Beatrice's mother is Peter's first wife, Joan
Doug Thompson
Brandon at starb...@hotmail.com wrote on 01/10/05 7:07 pm:
> If the Brewes/ Braose heirs were by Joan Percy, wouldn't they have
> inherited the Percy property in Dorset and Devon? I remember a
> detailed chart in Hutchins' _Dorset_ that conspicuously fails to show
> any Brewses holding the former Foliot-Percy lands there.
The portion that fell to Joan, on her marriage, (Whitford & Colyton) was
granted to the king by Peter de Brewes, more or less in exchange for Wiston
etc. in Sussex.
I can't recall any identifiable Dorset lands which passed from Joan Foliot
by inheritance. I think they were granted away during her lifetime.
Doug
Doug Thompson
31678703.112819994...@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net,
Kevin Bradford at planta...@earthlink.net wrote on 01/10/05 9:52 pm:
> Until primary evidence is produced, there's proof of one wife only, named
> Joan, with presently unknown parentage.
Kevin
Only one proven wife, but her parentage is known. There's a whole lot of
evidence that Peter was married to Joan, daughter of Nicholas de Percy and
his wife Joan (Foliot).
See CP under Mautravers.
Doug
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
This is not a window blazon. It is a window commemorating a married
woman, with her arms impaled with those of her husband. That is very
specific information. It is not a "hint."
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Doug Thompson
Richardson royala...@msn.com at royala...@msn.com wrote on 02/10/05
2:32 am:
> Dear Kevin ~
>
> This is not a window blazon. It is a window commemorating a married
> woman, with her arms impaled with those of her husband. That is very
> specific information. It is not a "hint."
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
No Douglas. It is a heraldic shield set in a window. The window is modern.
It does not commemorate anyone. There are three sets of old glass inserted.
The pieces have been releaded and reassembled several times. Glass experts
are not even sure that the inscription above the shield dates to the same
time as the shield!
What is certain is that it indicates that someone believed there was a
marriage between a Brewes and a Joan Howard. Which Brewes and which Joan
Howard is a matter of pure speculation. I have about five candidates for the
Brewes but would not burden the group with further speculation until some
evidence turns up!
Regards
Doug Thompson
Kevin Bradford
I appreciate very much your sharing of Mr. Richardson's responses, as I've had that particular email address killfiled some time ago and don't very often check the archives.
Here we see the risks of assuming that heraldic glass, particularly modern reproductions, can be used as a major piece of evidence for ancient family connections, lacking other primary sources. This glass isn't even useful as a "hint." Mr. Richardson, who appears to have gotten the question right the first time [PA3], unfortunately reversed directions in his most recent tome [MCA].
I located the CP citation for Joan under Mautravers, thank you. I'm working the Percy chronology and other details in some of my references at hand.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Best,
Kevin
Plantagenet Genealogy & Biography:http://home.earthlink.net/~plantagenet60/plantagenet01.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Thompson <doug.t...@virgin.net>
Sent: Oct 2, 2005 6:19 AM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Maternity of Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley
Doug Thompson
220530.1128256698...@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net,
Kevin Bradford at planta...@earthlink.net wrote on 02/10/05 1:38 pm:
> Here we see the risks of assuming that heraldic glass, particularly modern
> reproductions, can be used as a major piece of evidence for ancient family
> connections, lacking other primary sources. This glass isn't even useful as a
> "hint."
The heraldic glass is not reproduction. It is set within a modern window. I
think it may be a useful hint but as yet I'm not absolutely certain what
it's a hint of!!
Doug
Paul Mackenzie
In retrospect, I think the statement made by
myself that "I think it is safe to conclude that
Joan Howard was Robert Howard's sister and
that she married Peter de Brewes of Wiston."
was too strong. Rather I should have said something
like "the possibility exists..." Whilst there is
circumstantial evidence, there is as Doug Thompson
states no "declaratory" evidence that Peter de Brewes
married a second time and that John Howard had
a daughter Joan.
For those interested, I outline the circumstantial
evidence below. My conclusions are only "speculations"
at this time. Further evidence is still required.
In the series of Patent rolls 1378/81 concerning
Margaret Nerford reference is made to John de
Brewes, Robert Howard, Thomas Howard and others
abducting Margaret Nerford. Robert Howard
apparently was imprisoned in the tower of London
for his part of the misadventure. There is also
an ancient shield in the Wiston church having
the family emblems of DE BRAOSE dexter and
HOWARD impaling and the words above it
"Pp. DAME JOH'NE DE BR.". As the de Brewes
occupied Wiston for only two generations,
it most likely that Joanne Howard married
either Peter or one of his sons. Furthermore,
in a Inquisition post mortem dated 1374, on
Alice late the wife of John Howard knight,
mention is made of Alice in 1369 enfeoffing
Peter de Brewes knight and others of the
manors of Garboldecham, Uphalle Norfolk.
The inquisition post mortem found that Robert
Howard her son aged 30 was her next heir.
This seems to suggest that Johanne Howard
was from the family of Alice Howard and
was probably a daughter and married into
the de Brewes family sometime in the period
during or after 1369. It is unlikely that
Joanne Howard married John de Brewes as he
was already married to Margery Nerford in
1378 and most likely was his intended since
1363, when Peter de Brewes was granted
guardianship of Margery Nerford. His other
younger sons Richard and Thomas would have been
in their minority during 1369. Peter's wife
had died in 1368, so the possibility exists
that Joanne Howard married Peter de Brewes.
Kind Regards
Paul Mackenzie
Kevin Bradford
Best,
Kevin
Plantagenet Genealogy & Biography: http://home.earthlink.net/~plantagenet60/plantagenet01.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Mackenzie <paul.ma...@ozemail.com.au>
Sent: Oct 3, 2005 12:28 AM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Maternity of Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley
Clagett, Brice
married (2) Joan Howard, what is the basis for concluding
that Peter's children were by this alleged second wife rather
than by his known wife, Joan Percy?
On what authority does MCA say that Sir Peter de Brewes
and Joan Howard were married about 1359? According to
Paul Mackenzie, Joan (Percy) Brewes died in 1367/8 and
Peter married Joan Howard (if he married her at all) shortly
thereafter. If that is right, then Peter's children John, whose
wife was born c. 1359, and Beratrix, who was born c. 1366
according to MCA p. 748, must have been by Joan Percy
even if there was a second marriage to Joan Howard.
Doug Thompson
Brandon at starb...@hotmail.com wrote on 03/10/05 9:01 pm:
> Can both of these statements be true?
>
> Doug Thompson wrote:
>> The portion that fell to Joan, on her marriage, (Whitford & Colyton) was
>> granted to the king by Peter de Brewes, more or less in exchange for Wiston
>> etc. in Sussex.
>
> Paul Mackenzie wrote (14 Jan. 2003):
>> I believe that ultimately, the properties Melbury and Osmond devolved to
>> Alice and Elizabeth. Peter de Brewes granted Whiteford to Hugh de Courtney.
>
Yes. There was a rather complicated series of exchanges, grants and regrants
between Peter de Brewes, King Edward III, Hugh de Courtney and others.
Doug
Doug Thompson
"Clagett, Brice" at bcla...@cov.com wrote on 03/10/05 6:55 pm:
Peter's wife died about 1369. IF he was married twice this could have been
his first OR second wife. We do not know that the wife who died in 1369 was
Joan (Percy). There can be no firm identification of Beatrix's mother.
Doug
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
<There can be no firm identification of Beatrix's mother.
<
< Doug
Dear Doug ~
Sounds very much like you already have your mind made up. Is that
correct?
Kevin Bradford
-----Forwarded Message-----
From: Kevin Bradford <planta...@earthlink.net>
Sent: Oct 3, 2005 8:02 PM
To: Doug Thompson <doug.t...@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Maternity of Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley
Not if one does not credit the second wife theory.
Best,
Kevin
Plantagenet Genealogy & Biography: http://home.earthlink.net/~plantagenet60/plantagenet01.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Thompson <doug.t...@virgin.net>
Sent: Oct 3, 2005 7:06 PM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Maternity of Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley
Joan (Percy). There can be no firm identification of Beatrix's mother.
Doug
Paul Mackenzie
That is one difficulty with my proposal and I had left the question open
who was the mother of Beatrix.
It is not possible to put a definite date to the death of Joan de Brewes
(Percy). We only know that a Joan de Brewes died sometime in or just
prior to 29 Sept-29 Sept 1369/70(1). Whether this was Joan Percy or
Joan Howard, is impossible to say. Alice Howard enfeoffed her estates
to Peter de Brewes, knight and others on the 7th July 1369 (2). It was
her son Robert Howard and Peter de Brewes' son John who were involved in
the kidnapping of Margery Nerford, who was suing for divorce from John
de Brewes during 1378(3). The last specific mention I can find to Joan
Percy aka de Brewes is in the I.P.M. held on 11 Feb 1348/9 of her mother
Joan daughter and heir of Sir Walter Foliot.(4.).
As to the manor of Whiteford, Peter de Brewes and Joan Percy came into
possession of Whiteford prior to the death of her mother. Peter de
Brewes and his wife Joan (Percy) granted the manor to the king in
1344(6) who subsequently granted it back to them and their heirs in
1346 (7). According to a Patent (8) in 1355, Peter and Joan had "lately"
granted the manor to the king who then granted the manor to Peter de
Brewes and Robert Duanz, chaplain who granted it to Sir Hugh de
Courtenay (except for one acre) (9). In May 1357 Peter de Brewes was
granted a licence for the alienation in mortmain for the acre to a
chaplain to celebrate divine services for the good estate of Peter and
the souls of the ancestors of Peter [no mention of Joan]. It seems
Joan Brewes (Percy) dropped out of the scene from 1355, there are
no more specific references to her. However, In 1357, the king granted
Wiston to Peter de Brewes and his wife Joan, but no mention of last
name. (5.)
Further research needs to be undertaken on this matter.
(1) Sussex Arch. Collections Vol 54:156. The Wiston Account Roll for
Michaelmas to Michaelmas 1369/70 lists expenses incurred for the burial
of the lady.
(2) CIPM 13:267
(3) CP 1377-1381:260,299,301,307,308,311,309,374
CC 1377-1381 :222,223
(4) Complete Peerage - Mautravers.
(5) CP 1354-1358:651
(6) CF 1337-1347:378,379,412,416,; CC 1343-1346:450,451; CC
1343-1346:476; CIM 1345:486,487
(7) CP 1345-1348:124,168
(8) CP 1354-1358:271,274,
(9) CP 466,460; CC 1354-1360:325,326.
Kind Regards
Paul
Kevin Bradford
Perhaps the most that can be said, with confidence, is that her forename was Joan.
Best,
Kevin
Plantagenet Genealogy & Biography:
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Mackenzie <paul.ma...@ozemail.com.au>
Sent: Oct 3, 2005 8:37 PM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Maternity of Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley
<Further research needs to be undertaken on this matter.
Kind Regards
Paul
Paul Mackenzie
I think it is well established
that Peter de Brewes married
Joan Percy[see the extract from
Complete Peerage below].
Yes, I think you summed it up
correctly that the most we can
say with utmost confidence that
her forename was Joan.
The Complete Peerage at pages
580-1 under Mautravers, where
it is stated that Sir John
Mautravers married secondly
"Joan, widow of Nicholas Percy,
who died in 1324, and da. and
h. of Sir Walter Foliot by his
wife Ada or Alda, da. and heir
of Sir Laurence de Samford of
Melbury(h). He was dead in June
1341. His widow Joan Foliot,
who was aged 26 or more in 1330,
was heiress of a sixth part of
the barony of Nantwich in Cheshire.
She married thirdly Sir Alexander
de Venables...She died before 11
Feb 1348/9(c)"
"(h) By his second wife Sir John
had 3 daughters, Alice, Joan and
Elizabeth. Joan died d.s.p. but
Elizabeth had issue, though not
returned as coheir in the I.P.M.
quoted in note "c"
"(c) When the writ to the escheator
was issued. Her heirs ( as
returned in Cheshire) were her
two daughters: (i) Joan, her
da. by Nicholas Percy, then aged
26 and wife of Piers de Brewes;
(ii) Alice, her da. by John
Mautravers, then aged 21.
(Chester I.P.M. file 1 no. 17)..."
Kind Regards
Paul.
Doug Thompson
Richardson royala...@msn.com at royala...@msn.com wrote on 04/10/05
12:29 am:
> Doug Thompson wrote:
>
> <There can be no firm identification of Beatrix's mother.
> <
> < Doug
>
> Dear Doug ~
>
> Sounds very much like you already have your mind made up. Is that
> correct?
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
I really don't understand your comment Douglas. Surely my statement says
just the opposite! Her mother COULD be Joan Percy, she COULD be the surmised
Joan Howard, or she COULD be another unknown wife of Peter Brewes that is
completely undocumented! We have no firm identification for the mother. The
only thing my mind is made up about is the openness of the question. At the
slightest sign of evidence, my view will change.
Doug
Doug Thompson
Paul Mackenzie at paul.ma...@ozemail.com.au wrote on 04/10/05 1:37 am:
> We only know that a Joan de Brewes died sometime in or just
> prior to 29 Sept-29 Sept 1369/70(1). Whether this was Joan Percy or
> Joan Howard, is impossible to say.
A slight correction, Paul. We only know that a wife of Peter de Brewes died
then. Nowhere is she given a name Joan at this time. If she's not Joan de
Percy, his known wife, she could be anybody.
Doug
Paul Mackenzie
Paul.