Re: Update on the question of Agnes [? Dymoke], wife of Henry VIII's armorer, Erasmus Kirkener of Greenwich

[joe...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:40:00 PM UTC-5, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> About two years ago, there was a thread dealing with this lady (ancestral to Rev. Henry Whitfield of Connecticut, himself an ancestor of many Fitches and Higginsons in New England).
>
<snip>
> Some members of the van Cleve family must have been artisans and painters in the Low Countries. The snippet below states: "[The painter] Steven van der Meulen (d 1563/4) is first mentioned as a pupil of Willem van Cleve in Antwerp in 1543. In 1552 he was admitted to the artists' Guild of St. Luke there, but by September 1560 he was in London. Early in 1561, he was probably taken by the English merchant John Dymoke to paint one of the suitors of Elizabeth I, Eric XIX ..."
>
>
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=82FIAQAAIAAJ&q=%22van+cleve%22+dymoke&dq=%22van+cleve%22+dymoke&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7tIMU5GuIYmIkQf35oGQCg&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ

At the time, I posted this:

John Dymock, merchant of London abroad:
"The most important evidence here is the mention of the merchant John
Dymock (c1493-1585). As we shall see below, Dymock's relationship with
Steven van Herwijck indicates that van Herwijck, the acknowledged
medallist, must also
have been a painter - and therefore capable of producing some of the
works given to the 'paynter Steven' in the guise
of Stephen van der Meulen. In 1561 John Dymock went on a semi-official
visit to the
court of Erik XIV of Sweden. 12 Details of the voyage appear in
answers given by Dymock to the Privy Council on 6 August
1562. Four other men were interrogated about the same matter on the
same day.13 Dymock's account records that he had
travelled to Sweden described as 'the queen's servant' in order to
sell jewels and furs to Erik. On the eve of his departure he had met
'a certain honest Dutchman, a cunning painter, who should make the
haven at Dover, to know if it
were possible to get him his denizenship, so that he might work here
quietly'. Dymock had persuaded this Dutchman
to join the expedition so that 'he could get the King's picture' ..."

http://www.dnhdesign.com/BAJwebsite/BAJ-BG-STEVEN.pdf

This artist studied under William Van Cleve

Visitation of Hertfordshire gives..what appears to be the above John Dimock's wife as
"Mary, mar. to John Dimock" as daughter of "Clement Newce of London,
mercer and Mary, dau. of John Davy of Ely"

Now just to link the right John Dimmock..

[Derek Howard]

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 6:40:00 PM UTC+1, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> ---"Cecil shall find him [Dymmock] an Englishman, as his father was, who was Controller of Tournay when it belonged to England."

Sir Robert Dymock was first treasurer of the garrison of Tournai. See C G Cruickshank: "The English Occupation of Tournai 1513-1519", Oxford 1971, passim.

Derek Howard

[Derek Howard]

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 6:40:00 PM UTC+1, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

<snip>> Some members of the van Cleve family must have been artisans and painters in the Low Countries. The snippet below states: "[The painter] Steven van der Meulen (d 1563/4) is first mentioned as a pupil of Willem van Cleve in Antwerp in 1543. In 1552 he was admitted to the artists' Guild of St. Luke there, but by September 1560 he was in London. Early in 1561, he was probably taken by the English merchant John Dymoke to paint one of the suitors of Elizabeth I, Eric XIX ..."

<snip>

The records of the Guild of St Luke are printed and a Jan van Cleve is listed as a painter in 1539 and he is mentioned in 1546. There are quite a number of other van Cleves in the Guild.
"De liggeren en andere historische archieven der Antwerpsche sint Lucasgilde , Liggere 1453-1613", ed Rombouts and Van Lerius, 1872, pp 135, 157. See
http://books.google.be/books?id=lt58DGdLbgQC

[joe...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 9:06:45 PM UTC-5, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Agnes Kirkener died at Greenwich between the writing of her will, Sept. 1591, and its proving in January 1593. If she was a sister of John Dymmock, and was born a few years after him, she may also have been 92 (or older) at death. Since John seems to have had a brother living in Antwerp in 1538, perhaps Agnes could be his niece.


"monument to the memory of John Dimock, sometime citizen and draper, of London. he was twice married, and as the epitaph preserved by Stow says quaintly, 'He served the princes of famous memory, henry the Eighth, and Edward the Sixth. For his faithful and good service he was well esteemed; for his upright dealing he was well beloved by his equals; for his benevolence to the poor, he was both praised and prayed for. He lived to 100 years, lacking seven, very commendably, and the 14th of July 1585, he died Christianly"

[joe...@gmail.com]

Common pleas 1544, John Dymok, JR draper of London: (last entry on page)
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/H8/CP40no1120/aCP40no1120fronts/IMG_5221.htm

[Jan]

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:49:42 PM UTC-5, joe...@gmail.com wrote:

His burial is recorded in the St Margaret Lothbury parish register, image on
http://interactive.ancestry.com/1624/31281_A101833-00118/7365362
It is indexed as John Dinorke (I've submitted a correction).

[Jan]

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:58:45 PM UTC-5, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Common pleas 1544, John Dymok, JR draper of London: (last entry on page)
>
> http://aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/H8/CP40no1120/aCP40no1120fronts/IMG_5221.htm

Also, CP40/1135 Hilary 1548
45 f London debt Dymmocke, John, of London, draper vs
Clynton, Edward, of London, knight, lord of Clynton & Saye
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/E6/CP40no1135/aCP40no1135fronts/IMG_0045.htm

Oxford DNB says the defendant's daughter Bridget married Robert Dimoke (d. 1580), son of Edward Dymoke (d. 1567) and the grandson of Robert Dimoke (c.1461-1545).

[joe...@gmail.com]

Here's another alias for John Dym.? "usher of the king's chamber"

12. John Dymmok, gent. usher of the Chamber, alias merchant of Bristol, alias of Andewarp. Protection; going in retinue of Sir John Pecche, deputy of Calais. Enfield, 19 Aug. 11 Hen. VIII. Del. Westm., 12 Oct.--P.S.

[Jan]

On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:10:29 AM UTC-5, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
> Here's another alias for John Dym.? "usher of the king's chamber"
>
>
>
> 12. John Dymmok, gent. usher of the Chamber, alias merchant of Bristol, alias of Andewarp. Protection; going in retinue of Sir John Pecche, deputy of Calais. Enfield, 19 Aug. 11 Hen. VIII. Del. Westm., 12 Oct.--P.S.

A John Dymmocke married Mary Nuce on 31 January 1557/8 at St Gabriel Fenchurch
http://books.google.com/books?id=Xf8cAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA433

A Mary Dymock "gentwoman" was buried at St Margaret Lothbury on 12 April 1586
http://interactive.ancestry.com/1624/31281_A101833-00118/7365370

[Jan]

On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:33:41 AM UTC-5, Jan wrote:
>
> A Mary Dymock "gentwoman" was buried at St Margaret Lothbury on 12 April 1586
>
> http://interactive.ancestry.com/1624/31281_A101833-00118/7365370

PROB 11/69/173
Will of Mary Dimock, Widow of Saint Margaret Lothbury, City of London
Date: 06 April 1586 (written 20 March 1585/6)
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D922265
image available on Ancestry.com at
http://interactive.ancestry.com/5111/40611_311335-00268/908491
(indexed as Marie Democks)

She makes bequests to her sisters, brothers, friends, and servants. I didn't see anything about any relatives of her late husband.

[sangreel]

> The article below is very interesting, and proposes that the merchant John Dymmock's vital dates are b. ca. 1493 and d. 1585.
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>
>
> http://www.dnhdesign.com/BAJwebsite/BAJ-BG-STEVEN.pdf
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> It seems, then, that the 1542 naturalization could apply to a young son of John Dymock himself. This would make the statement from 1562 (as to his _own_ employment as gentleman usher) accurate, and would perhaps mean John Dymmock's first wife (before Mary Newce) was Beatrice van Cleve.
>
>
>
> I suspect that the "Controller" of Tournay was the same as the Treasurer of Tournay and that John Dymmock might be an illegitimate son of Sir Robert Dymoke (1461-1545) who was that same treasurer. Sir Robert's eldest child, Edward, was aged only 36 at the father's death in 1545, hence born around 1509, when his father was nearly 50.
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> Note that Sir Robert Dymoke the Tournay treasurer lived to about age 84. If the years given for John Dymmock are correct, he was around 92 at death.

>
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> Agnes Kirkener died at Greenwich between the writing of her will, Sept. 1591, and its proving in January 1593. If she was a sister of John Dymmock, and was born a few years after him, she may also have been 92 (or older) at death. Since John seems to have had a brother living in Antwerp in 1538, perhaps Agnes could be his niece.

***
http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/printable/8367
<snip>
Sir Robert [i] Dymoke (c.1461-1545), Sir Thomas [ii]'s heir, married Anne, daughter of John Sparrow of London. Robert's eventful minority included in May 1471 an order to arrest him and his mother. The following year his custody and wardship were entrusted to Robert Radcliffe. Dymoke was given licence to inherit his father's lands and those of Robert Waterton in 1482. Account of the former (which in addition to Scrivelsby included the Lincolnshire manors of Coningsby, Thornton, Donington, and Horncastle among others) was to be rendered after an inquiry in 1483 into the possessions of named rebels. In 1485 he requested an exemplification that any act of forfeiture should not extend to Waterton's lands.

Dymoke was knighted on 5 July 1483 before Richard III's coronation, at which he first performed his duties as king's champion. It is recorded that at the second course of the banquet Dymoke rode into the hall and proclaimed that he would fight anyone who dared to say that Richard was not the lawful king. The whole hall was silent, but Dymoke having thrown down his gauntlet, the company cried out 'King Richard'. This happened three times. Sir Robert was then brought a cup of wine covered and when he had drunk, he cast out the remaining wine and departed with the cup (BL, Add. MS 6113, fol. 22). He later acted as champion at the coronations of Henry VII (1485) and Henry VIII (1509).

Sir Robert [i] Dymoke was appointed sheriff of Lincolnshire in 1484, 1502, and 1509 and became mayor of Boston in 1520. From 1486 he served on many administrative and judicial commissions within the county including peace commissions for Lindsey (1486-1507, 1520-32, and 1539). He was made a banneret in 1512 and served as treasurer of the rearward in Henry VIII's invasion of France in 1513. Henry appointed him treasurer of the captured city of Tournai, a post he occupied until 1515. In 1522 Dymoke provided the sum of £200 towards the king's expenses for regaining the French crown. For at least eight years (1527-35) he was chancellor to the queen's household, though he is also described as Katherine of Aragon's 'almoner and receiver' and 'queen's chamberlain' under Anne Boleyn. During the Lincolnshire rebellion of 1536 the rebels came to fetch Sir Robert from Scrivelsby together with his sons Edward, the current sheriff, and Arthur. Although a banner depicting the family arms was used at the rebels' head, the family's conduct, like that of the other leading gentry caught up in the revolt, attracted suspicion but no punishment from the king.

Sir Robert died on 15 April 1545. His will dated 1543 desired his son Edward [i] to appoint two discreet and honest priests and one poor man for five years to say mass daily in the church at Scrivelsby and pray for the souls of Robert, his wife, and his parents.

Sir Edward [i] Dymoke (d. 1567), who married Anne, daughter of George Tailboys, Baron Kyme, was the champion at the coronations of Edward VI, Mary, and Elizabeth. His son, Robert [ii] Dymoke (d. 1580), married Bridget, daughter of Edward Fiennes de Clinton, first earl of Lincoln (1512-1585), and of Elizabeth Blount, and had at least four sons, Edward [ii], Robert [iii], Nicholas, and Tailboys Dymoke. Robert [ii], who suffered from a paralysis in later life, may have died in prison as a result of his unyielding recusancy. He was buried at Scrivelsby on 26 September 1580.
***

I do believe we are on the right track, but the sticking point will be proving the connection, if it CAN be proved. But, looking at some of the other posts...I am hopeful that we can connect the dots.

M. Warner

[sangreel]

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3092308

A bit more on the Dymoke family, looking at Robert Dymoke. Nice pictures of the monuments.

<quote>
Brass of Sir Robert Dymoke, Scrivelsby church
Grade II* Listed.
Scrivelsby church, which is shared by the parishes of Scrivelsby and Dalderby, is dedicated in honour of St Benedict AD 480-550. An unusual dedication, there are only 17 other churches in England of that name.
The church, built mainly of greenstone, dates back to the 13th century although alterations have occurred throughout the years. Major restoration took place in 1860 by Sir Henry Dymoke, when a North-west tower with a recessed spire was added. The roof of slate was also replaced during this period.
The present lectern, made locally in 1871, stands in front of a massive pillar, which was evidently the foundation of what was once the chancel arch, the old chancel ending at the site of the attractive oak screen.
The arches of the nave are early English, the chancel arch and church itself perpendicular, while the windows show three different styles.
The monuments are especially interesting, including two stone effigies in the north aisle of Sir Philip Marmion and his wife Joan or second wife Mary. He was the last of the Marmions (he only had issue several daughters) who resided at Scrivelsby and died in the 1290s. His legs, before being removed over 350 years ago, were crossed at the ankles indicating that he possibly fought in one of the Crusades. He was both a statesman and a warrior and fought at the Battle of Evesham and was granted lands well outside the confines of Lincolnshire.
The powerful Marmion family were 'Champion' to the Dukes of Normandy in France and came to this country with William, Duke of Normandy, when he invaded England in 1066
The family originally lived in Dymock , Gloucestershire. It seems they left the area to return to live in Scivelsby in the 14th century but took the surname with them. Although there was dispute between the descendants of Sir Philip via his daughters, great granddaughter Margaret who married Sir John Dymocke won the right of Champion in 1377.
A marble monument, elaborately carved in the chancel and touching the screen, is surmounted with the bust of Lewis Dymoke and his shield containing the Dymoke Arms with crest and sword.

In the chancel, on the north wall, is an old brass which was found at Scrivelsby Court and a copy of which appears in the old register book.

Sir Robert Dymoke (1461-1545) son of Sir Thomas Dymocke and Margaret Welles, held high office during the early part of Henry VIII's reign.
He married twice, Anne Sparrow and Jane Cressmore and had a total of 6 children.
After the King's divorce he was controller of Katherine of Aragon's household. He died in 1545 and his tomb is surmounted by a handsome brass in memory of him.
His son, Sir Edward Dymoke - Kings Champion - was High Sheriff at the time of the Lincolnshire uprising in 1536. He also sat in parliament with Sir Robert Tyrwhitt.
The current and 34th Champion is Lieutenant-Colonel John Lindley Marmion Dymoke, MBE DL, Royal Lincolnshire Regiment. His eldest son and heir is Francis Dymoke, a chartered accountant and estate owner.

[sangreel]

I thought I might post some of what I found from a quick google search. I will also post a link to the pictures i have in my collection. They may help...or not.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/wek7Yel8aa4

I see that a lot of posts have been deleted, including a few of mine. Weird.

http://sangreel.tumblr.com/image/17312282365

http://sangreel.tumblr.com/post/17312282365/whitfield-manning-dymoke-coat-of-arms-pic-1

http://sangreel.tumblr.com/post/17312298637/whitfield-manning-dymoke-pic-2

This matches the coat of arms from the pedigree drawn up by Threlfall shown here:

http://sangreel.tumblr.com/post/17312298637/whitfield-manning-dymoke-pic-2

It has been a long day so do forgive my fractured posts.

Here is a picture of the brass of Sir. Robert Dymoke:

http://www.ipernity.com/doc/57116/28755997

http://www.ipernity.com/doc/57116/28755945

A stained glass window in the church:

http://www.ipernity.com/doc/57116/28756145

and a link to another view:

http://www.geograph.org.uk/snippet/7558

You can find the Dymoke pedigree, while it does not have all the family members shown, it does give a good place to start. This is in The Lincolnshire Pedigrees, Harleian Soc. V. 55, starting on page 1202 with the pedigree of Dymoke of Haltham on Bain and then Dymoke of Scrivelsby. One may also look in the HV~ of London. I did find a John Dimock of chester.... It is time to rest this old head, but I will be sure to check back to see if more information is forthcoming. I must say this.... All 6 children of Sir Robert Dymoke [1461-1545] are accounted for. [He married twice, Anne Sparrow {da and heir of her father, John sparrow of London granted arms 25 June 1516} and Jane Cressmore and had a total of 6 children] So, Is our Agnes, (d. abt. 1593) da of John Dymoke, from another branch? As the memorial arms for Thomas and Mildred Manning / Whitfield were placed in 1631, one would be hard pressed to say that the family member "invented" the link.

M. Warner

[sangreel]

Corrected link:

> This matches the coat of arms from the pedigree drawn up by Threlfall shown here:

http://sangreel.tumblr.com/post/17267137362/the-agnes-dymoke-question

[brid...@mindspring.com]

I believe the John Dymoke mentioned may be a brother of Sir Edward Dymoke whose wife was Ann Talboys daughter of Sir George Talboys and Elizabeth Gascoigne. They had a daughter Frances Dymoke who married Sir Thomas Windebank. Their son Charles Windebank was Secretary of the State to Charles I.

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:40:00 AM UTC-6, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> About two years ago, there was a thread dealing with this lady (ancestral to Rev. Henry Whitfield of Connecticut, himself an ancestor of many Fitches and Higginsons in New England).
>
>
>

> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2012-02/1328663483
>
>
>
> I contributed some items, then removed them from Google Groups at a later time. I can find some, but not all, of my own postings:
>
>
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> http://soc.genealogy.medieval.narkive.com/HmsoS63t/thomas-whitfield-mildred-manning-dymoke-question.4
>
>
>
> The crux of this situation was that Mr. Threlfall, former FASG and author of the standard Whitfield-Sheafe reference book, had noted that the monumental inscription for Thomas Whitfield, Esq., of Mortlake, Surrey, and his wife Mildred Fortune Manning, showed that Mildred's grandmother might have been a Dymoke, based on the heraldry assigned to that slot in the quartering. The connection from Erasmus Kirkener, armorer to Henry VIII, and his wife Agnes ____, through their daughter Katherine (Kirkener) (Waller) Manning (who married Henry Manning of Greenwich, Marshall of the Hall), down to her daughter Mildred Manning, wife of Whitfield, is solid. Threlfall mentioned that the quartering for Kirkener's wife Agnes indicated a member of the Dymoke family, but did not press the question, and could find no suitable candidate.
>
>
>
> Downloading the early 1550s will of Katherine Kirkener's first husband, Robert Waller, merchant of London, I noticed that one of the witnesses signed his name simply "Dymock" (Nat Taylor confirmed this reading).
>
>
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> Speculation thereafter centered on one John Dymoke or Dymmock, apparently an English merchant and crown servant, who had many ties to the Low Countries (as did Erasmus Kirkener himself).
>
>
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> Apparently the _Letters of Denization and Acts of Naturalization for Aliens_ from 1542 stated that this John Dymmock, sometime of London, was "son of John Dymock (late one of the gentlemen ushers of the King's Chamber) and Beatrice, daughter of John Van Cleve, his wife, born at Antwerp in Brabant."
>
>
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> This statement apparently comes from one of the _Publications of the Huguenot Society of London_, citing Statutes of the Realm from 33 Henry VIII.
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> http://books.google.com/books?id=tWYmAQAAIAAJ&q=%22van+cleve%22+dymmoke&dq=%22van+cleve%22+dymmoke&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PcYMU8-NOIG3kQffg4DABg&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAA
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>
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> _Calendar of State Papers: Foreign Series_ prints some 1562 statements from John Dymmock himself that tend to confirm this origin:
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>
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> ---"The King [of Sweden] finding in Dymock's passport that he was called the Queen's servant, asked him wherein he had served; whereunto he said that in King Henry VIII.'s time he was gentleman usher extraordinary, and served also for muster-master of the Almains all King Edward [V]'s time."

>
>
>
> ---"Cecil shall find him [Dymmock] an Englishman, as his father was, who was Controller of Tournay when it belonged to England."
>
>
>

> http://books.google.com/books?id=zYE9AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA223&dq=dymock+usher&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BtsLU-PfKY2jkQec-oCACw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=dymock%20usher&f=false
>
>
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> http://books.google.com/books?id=zYE9AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA243&dq=%22of+tournay%22+dymock&hl=en&sa=X&ei=T8QMU4jsFYXMkAfKmYHgBw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22of%20tournay%22%20dymock&f=false
>
>
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> This makes it appear that Dymmock himself, not his father, was the Gentleman Usher to Henry VIII, but otherwise I would say this is potentially a good match to the statement in the earlier Statute of the Realm ref. It seems his father was English, whoever his mother may have been.
>
>
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> I've been able to look at most of the run of the _Calendar of State Papers: Foreign Series_ from the 1550s-80s, and note that there are many references to Dymmock, as he's often abbreviated, and many mentions of the jewelry and gold he was taking as gifts to various European rulers.

>
>
>
> Some members of the van Cleve family must have been artisans and painters in the Low Countries. The snippet below states: "[The painter] Steven van der Meulen (d 1563/4) is first mentioned as a pupil of Willem van Cleve in Antwerp in 1543. In 1552 he was admitted to the artists' Guild of St. Luke there, but by September 1560 he was in London. Early in 1561, he was probably taken by the English merchant John Dymoke to paint one of the suitors of Elizabeth I, Eric XIX ..."
>
>
>

> http://books.google.com/books?id=82FIAQAAIAAJ&q=%22van+cleve%22+dymoke&dq=%22van+cleve%22+dymoke&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7tIMU5GuIYmIkQf35oGQCg&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ

[sangreel]

May I enquire as to why you have this view?

Looking at the Lincolnshire Pedigrees, P.1205 that can be viewed here...

http://books.google.com/books?id=KIE_AQAAMAAJ&dq=lincolnshire%20pedigrees&pg=PA1205#v=onepage&q=lincolnshire%20pedigrees&f=false

...we find that Sir Robert Dymoke was dead by 1544 as it is shown that he was aged 9 when his father died in 1470. Sir. Edward his son who married Ann Talboys/ Talbois was aged 36 when his father died, putting his death cal. 1508.



Now, the John Dymoke that married Beatrice von cleve [1] and in 1557/8 married Mary Newce [2] da of Clement by his wife Mary Davy of Ely da of John Davy, was born cal. 1492/3 and died 14 July 1585 at 93 years of age.

Agnes Dymoke / Kirkener died cal. 1593. I fail to see how this John Dymoke who died in 1585 can be the father of Agnes.....brother, cousin.. yes....

Enquiring minds want to know :)

M. Warner

***

[sangreel]

The John[s] Dymoke I am focused upon is shown here: H.S. V. 55 p. 1203/4

http://books.google.com/books?id=KIE_AQAAMAAJ&dq=lincolnshire%20pedigrees&pg=PA1204#v=onepage&q=lincolnshire%20pedigrees&f=false

The line is thus:

1]Sir. John d. 1381
2]Sir. John alive 16 R.II
3]William, John & Gregory down to John Dymoke of Co. Notts who had 4 wives.

M. Warner

[sangreel]

As to the Nuce / Newce possible connection I submit the pedigrees from Hertford:
County genealogies, pedigrees of Hertfordshire ... . Berry, William, 1774-1851.
Page 175/6

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101073849083;view=1up;seq=244

and

The Visitations of Hertfordshire: Made by Robert Cooke, Esq.,Clarencieux, 1572
Page 78

http://books.google.com/books?id=gqwKAAAAYAAJ&dq=hertford%201572%20pedigrees&pg=PA78#v=onepage&q=hertford%201572%20pedigrees&f=false

The New England Historical and Genealogical Register,: Volume 44 1890
Page 76. I show this link as the writer states he has seen the Will of Clement Newce the father of Mary Newce wife of John Dymoke. [..and it may connect to the Washington family]

http://books.google.com/books?id=9U6qXPSwqOQC&lpg=PA76&dq=%22newce%22%20pedigree&pg=PA76#v=onepage&q=%22newce%22%20pedigree&f=false

Genealogical Gleanings in England, Volume 1, Page 411

This gives a better view of the will.. and the part that made me look closer is the part that states Clement Newce wanted the arms of Flanders along with the arms of London and the Mercers and his own on his tombstone. Hummm

http://books.google.com/books?id=CaNCAAAAYAAJ&dq=%22newce%22%20pedigree&pg=PA411#v=onepage&q=%22newce%22%20pedigree&f=false

Northamptonshire Notes & Queries, Volume 1
Page 148

http://books.google.com/books?id=-sM4AQAAMAAJ&dq=%22newce%22%20pedigree&pg=PA148#v=onepage&q=%22newce%22%20pedigree&f=false


M. Warner

[sangreel]

I wonder if anyone has access to the following:

Origines Genealogicae; Or, The Sources Whence English Genealogies May be ...
Page 49 namely the Coronation Rolls as cited in the link. The Charles II roll would be grand.

http://books.google.com/books?id=JCowAAAAYAAJ&dq=dymoke&pg=PA49#v=onepage&q=dymoke&f=false

M.Warner

[sangreel]

The only John Dymock that I have been able to find that had a sited da. named Agnes that could be within..or close to the time range needed, is this one:

http://books.google.com/books?id=P8YxAQAAIAAJ&dq=%22john%20demock%22&pg=PA366#v=onepage&q=%22%20demock%22&f=false

Gloucestershire Notes and Queries, Volume 5
Page's 366/7
John Dimock
26 Oct 1593
Names da. Agnes

M.Warner

[joe...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, February 27, 2014 at 10:23:22 PM UTC-5, sangreel wrote:
>
john dymock 'of lynne' abroad.

"On the 3rd March 30 Hen. VIII., have come before Sir John Jernyngham and John Harvye, commissioners of pence in co. Suffolk:--(1.) Wm. Hendry, master of a ship called the Macrell, of Cley, and showed a cocket dated 15 Feb. at Blakeney, Norf., for 60 qrs. of barley charged in the said ship of the goods of John Hall of Cley, to be delivered at London or elsewhere in this realm. (2.) Wm. Bloke, stranger, master of the Peter, of Rosyndale, in Flanders, with a cocket of 16 Feb., proving that ship to be charged at Lynne Regis with 400 qrs. of malt and barley of John Dymock, of Lynne, for Calais or elsewhere in the realm. It is confessed that these 400 qrs. are goods of Cornelius Crue, of Anwarpe, though in the name of John Dymock"

"Received also, by Francis, two letters from the Council, the one commanding that, if Lightmaker arrived at Andwerp with 200 horsemen or upwards, Vaughan should deliver 300 or 400 cr. to bring them to the camp, and also commanding delivery to John Dymmock of 600 mks. to pay Nycolas Taphoryn's band of haquebutiers. The other letter commanded payment to John Dymok of 260l. for traces made here for Henry's cart horses. Lastly, the Council, by their letter brought by Wm. Damsell, command payment to Damsell of 3,000l. for 50 lasts of powder."

"5 Jan. 26. VAUGHAN to JOHN DYMOCK.

E- 0. I have received your letter written on St. Stephen's Day and thank

you for the news of the taking of the 16 sail of Frenchmen by our men of
Fowee and Dartemowthe. It is three weeks since I wrote to the Council
and to Mr. Paget, secretary, that Jasper Dowche would go into England if
the King would license him to bring certain jewels free of custom unless
sold there. "I have brought him to that pass that ye never saw man more
desirous to go," and daily he sends to know if I have answer about it;
which I marvel that I have not, seeing that I have written so oft to Mr.
Secretary therefor. Pray speak therein. Jasper thinks himself mocked,
and, unless taken in his heat, will never go. " Commend me, I pray you,
to our friend Thomas Lock. With his fair wife he hath a crow to pull. I
marvel that you desire not to make account of the money we received and
paid, whiles ye be in England. Time draweth many perils. We may
chance so to be sparpled abroad as we shall not meet togethers a good
whiles." Andwerp, 5 Jan.

HoL, p. 1. Acid. : To my very gentle and loving friend, Mr. John
Dymok, London. Endd. : 1544. "


"2. Original document of which the above is the draft. Signed at the beginning by the King, and headed ''Instructions given by the King's Majesty to his trusty and well beloved servants, Sir Ralph Fane, knight, lieutenant of his Highness' pensioners, Francis Haull, esquire, comptroller of his Highness' town of Calais, Thomas Chambrelain, esquire, governor of the English merchants at Andwerp, Thomas Avery and John Dymmock, esquires, whom his Majesty sendeth presently as his commissioners for the musters of his Grace's men of war in to Almayn." Signed at the head."


"In 1561 the English merchant John Dymocke or Dymoch visited Sweden in connection with negotiations for a marriage between Elizabeth and Erik XIV, taking with him a Netherlandish painter (holländsk Konterfegare[6]) described as 'Master Staffan' to paint the portrait of the King. It is generally accepted that this was van der Meulen"

1565 john in debtor's prison in sweden

1573 letters to sweden regarding liberation of "old" john dymock

1574: "ohn Dymock to Lord Burghley.
His great need and misery constrains him not only to crave his help, but to pray that he will be good to him and all Her Majesty's subjects who are in the King of Sweden's dominions, so that they may be otherwise used than hitherto. They are no more esteemed but like the slaves who are captives to the barbarians. Has been kept prisoner for three years and eight months at the suit of the Lady Cecilia, the King's sister, who has untruly and unjustly reported of him and said the like talk of the Queen. Although the Queen has sent three several letters and certified the perfect truth, and he has the certificates of the Admiralty, the Lord Mayor of London, and Benedict Spinola, for the matter of the Lady Cecilia, the King and his council have given more credit to her false report. They are repulsed out of the Court like dogs. The King is indebted to one English merchant 70,000 dollars, and has seized ships and goods belonging to another to the value of 45,000 dollars, for which they can get nothing but promises. The King has promised him that he shall be talked with and have an end, but it is but driving off, they hoping that hearty sorrow will kill him as it has done others. Has been informed that they are not minded that he shall ever depart, for fear he shall procure some hurt to the King and his realm for the great wrongs and evil usage that they have done to him. Has made it known to the King what he did for him when King Eric kept him prisoner and he was condemned to die in getting the Queen of England's letters in his favour. The young King of Scots has sent over and not only procured that a number of his subjects in Sweden should be set at liberty, but also had the King's bonds for the payment of all their wages. If such a poor nation can fear this King in such manner, what cannot the Queen of England do for her subjects. Begs therefore that she will send over some wise and learned gentleman, which will be much to her honour.--Stockholm, 16 Feb. 1574. Signed.
Add., with seal. Pp. 3 1/2."

March 24, 1575: John Dymock reports that he has received word he will be released.
1575-6: Letter from John Dymock to Lord Burghley; intellegence from John, passing through Koln, returning from Sweden

aug 20, 1576: John DYmock in Cologne, returning from Sweden mentioned in letter of Edward Castlyn to Walsingham

1577: "A letter to Mr. Doctour Dale, Master of the Requestes, Sir Rowland Heyward and others, that whearas, JOhn Dymock hath exhibited unto their Lordships a Supplication sent herewith unto them conteyning certen misdemenors committed, as he seyeth, by his wief during his absence in Sweden, they are required [to examine] as well his said wife as any other person named

1581: Chancellor of Sweden to lord burghley; to defend him from the slanders of one John Dymock, May 28, 1581

""Notes on Matters concerning Sweden" (1583)
SP 95/1 f.12 - SPO Part II

... The Queen demanded payment of 12,000l. lent to King Eric and delivered to Sir N. Guldenstern, then ambassador, by Sir L. Duckett, John Dymock and Richard Springham. To which King John replied that he was not bound to pay King Eric's debts, for he was a tyrant, and King John came to the throne by conquest. And Mr. Dymock being sent to Sweden to demand the money and 1,000l. more due by the Lady Cecilia, was committed to prison, where he continued five and a half years."

[sangreel]

Joe,

Thank you so much...this will open many avenues of research for me and we may be able to place this John Dymock in the Dymock family tree.

Again,

Thank you,

M.Warner