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C.P. Addition: Maud de Vaux, wife of William de Roos, 1st Lord Roos of Helmsley, & her sister, Pernel de Vaux, wife of Sir WIlliam de Nerford
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Douglas Richardson
Feb 13, 2017, 6:19:43 PM2/13/17
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Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage 11 (1949): 96–97 (sub Ros) has a good account of Sir William de Roos, 1st Lord Roos of Helmsley [died 1316]. Regarding his marriage, the following information is provided:
"He married Maud, younger daughter (and in 1287 coheiress) of John de Vaux, son of Sir Oliver de Vaux." END OF QUOTE.
The following sources are cited in support of this marriage: Cal. of Close Rolls, 1279-88, pp. 497, 530; Complete Peerage, ix, p. 469, note "i."
The reference to Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 469, note i is to an account of Sir William de Nerford, whose wife, Pernel, was the elder sister of Maud de Vaux, wife of Sir William de Roos.
Regarding Sir William de Nerford's marriage, the following information is given by Complete Peerage:
"He married 4 Feb. 1287/8, Pernel, elder daughter and co-heir of Sir John de Vaux (died 1287), son of Sir Oliver de Vaux." END OF QUOTE.
In footnote i on page 469, the following additional information is provided:
"Query by Joan his wife, widow of Roger de Gyney (Assize Roll 506, m. 9). Pernel's younger sister Maud married William de Roos of Hamelake (Cal. Inq. p.m., vol. ii, no. 653; Cal. Close Rolls, 1279-88, p. 530)." END OF QUOTE
As we can see, very little information is given by Complete Peerage regarding Sir John de Vaux, father of Maud and Pernel de Vaux. And, we only have a mere suggestion that Sir John de Vaux's wife, Joan, widow of Roger de Gyney, might be the mother of Sir John's two daughters. But was she?
Cal. IPM 2 (1906): 402–404 indicates Sir John de Vaux died 11 Sept. 1287, and was survived by two daughters and co-heiresses, namely Pernel (born about 1259) and Maud (born about 1261). For this inquisition post mortem, please see the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=rbYKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA402
On 28 October 1287 Sibyl, widow of John de Vaux, appointed William de Bekles and William Norman to receive her dower of John’s lands. On the same date Pernel, daughter of the said John, appointed the same parties to receive her purparty of John's lands. Reference: Cal. of Close Rolls, 1279–1288 (1902): 492, available at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=WzigAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA492&lpg=PA492
Reviewing the above, it appears that Sir John de Vaux (died 1287) had two wives, Joan and Sibyl, and that by one of these wives, he evidently had two daughters, Pernel (born 1259) and Maud (born about 1261).
Recently I was able to locate the lawsuit cited by Complete Peerage concerning Sir John de Vaux and his 1st wife, Joan, widow of Roger de Gyney. The lawsuit is dated 1250. A brief abstract of the lawsuit is provided below.
In 1250 John and his wife, Joan, sued William Aplham, of Refham, Norfolk, regarding the third part of one messuage and three acres of land in Whitwell, Norfolk, which said said Joan claimed as her right of dower by the dotation of Roger de Gyney her former husband; the said William called to warranty Walter de Ingham; the said John and Joan also sued Hugh de Vaux in a plea of dower regarding two messuages, three mills, and eight acres of land with appurtenances in Whitwell, Refham, Swaneton, and Woreford, Norfolk, which Joan claimed as her dower. Reference: Justice Itinerants, JUST1, no. 560, Image 6512f, Year: 1250 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no560/aJUST1no560fronts/IMG_6512.htm).
So who was Joan, widow of Roger de Gyney? Blomefield, Essay towards a Topographical History of Norfolk 8 (1808): 353 (sub Heverland) identifies her as Joan de Pelevile:
"Roger [de Gyney] levied a fine in the 33d of that King, to Beringarius, prior of St. Faith's, of Horsham, the advowson of this church, and married Joan, daughter of - - - - - - - - - -, sister and coheir of Sir Peter de Pelevile, (who remarried Sir John de Vaux,) and by her had Sir William de Gyney, his son and heir, and Sir Roger, who married Margaret, daughter of William Peche." END OF QUOTE.
Curia Regis Rolls 13 (1959): 129 confirms that Roger de Gyney's wife, Joan, was the daughter of Peter de Peleville:
Date: 1227-1230. "Convenit inter Petrum de Pelevill' querentem et Willelmum de Ginney deforciantem de tota terra ipsius Willelmi in Heveringland Dilham et Pichewurth' et alibi, unde placitum conventionis summonitum fuit inter eos in curia domini regis, scilicet quod predictus (sic) Johannes concessit quod decetero terram suam sive redditum non dabit nec vendet nec invadiabit Judeis sive Christianis per quod Rogerus filius et heres predicti Willelmi possit exheredan nisi de consilio et assensu Petri et amicorum utriusque partis. Et preterea idem Willelmus concessit predicto Petro quod, si predictus filius predicti Willelmi obierit priusquam Willelmus pater suus, idem Willelmus faciet Johanne filie ipsius Petri, quam idem Rogerus duxit in uxorem, plenam dotem suam, scilicet terciam partem totius terre sue et redditus cum pertinentiis unde idem Johannes eam dotavit per assensum ejusdem Willelmi patris sui. Idem vero Willelmus providebit eidem Johanne redditum c. solidorum in certo loco ad sustentationem suam, ita scilicet quod idem redditus computabitur eidem Johanne in dotem suam si predictus Rogerus vir suus obierit priusquam Willelmus ..." END OF QUOTE.
As for Roger de Gyney, it appears that he was living as late as 1248-9, when he when as "Roger de Gisnetho," he conveyed the advowson of the church of Heverland, Norfolk to Berenger, of St. Faith of Horsham [Reference: Rye, Short Cal. Feet of Fines for Norfolk 1 (1885): 73].
Given the records cited above, it appears that Sir John de Vaux married before 1250 to Joan de Peleville, widow of Roger de Gyney (living 1248-9), which Joan was the daughter of Peter de Peleville.
So far, so good. But it appears that Joan de Peleville must have died before 1254, when her son, William de Gyney, then aged 30, was named a co-heir of Joan's brother, Peter de Peleville. Cal. of Inq. Post Mortem 1 (1904): 80-86 includes an inquisition post mortem for Peter de Pelevill, of Bilney and Bodney, Norfolk, who died in 1254. The heirs of Peter de Pelevill are named as William de Giney, aged 30 and more, and Sir William de Whithingtone, aged 36 and more.
This inquisition may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol1/pp80-86
An entry in the Fine Rolls of Henry III dated 19 August 1254 sheds additional light on the heirs of Peter de Peleville. It shows that Peter de Peleville's co-heir, William de Gyney, was his nephew.
"19 Aug. Westminster. Concerning homage which has been taken. William de Wyston’ who took to wife Emma sister and one of the heiresses of Peter de Pelevill and William de Gynnay nephew and the other heir of the aforesaid Peter has done fealty to the king for the manors of Bilney and Bodney that the same Peter held of the king in chief for the service of one knight’s fee. Order to the king’s escheator in Norfolk, that having accepted security from the aforesaid William and William 1 for rendering 100s. for their relief at the Exchequer of Michaelmas, to cause the same William and William to have full seisin of all the lands and tenements of which the aforesaid Peter was seised in his demesne as of fee on the day he died in the aforesaid manors. Witness R. earl of Cornwall." END OF QUOTE.
The above entry may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_051.html
Inasmuch as Joan de Peleville, 1st wife of Sir John de Vaux, must have died sometime between 1250 and 1254, she obviously can not be Sir John's wife who was the mother of his two daughters, Pernel and Maud, both of whom were born after 1254. That leaves Sir John's surviving wife, Sibyl, as the candidate to be the mother of the Vaux girls.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Pernel de Vaux and her husband, Sir William de Nerford:
Robert Abell, Humphrey Warren.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Maud de Vaux and her husband, William de Roos, Knt., 1st Lord Roos of Helmsley.
Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Walter Aston, Frances Baldwin, Charles Barnes, Henry, Thomas & William Batte, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Nathaniel Browne, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen Bull, Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth, John, and Thomas Butler, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, William Clopton, William Crymes, James Cudworth, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Anne Derehaugh, William Farrer, John Fenwick, Henry Fleete, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Katherine Hamby, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Anne Humphrey, Henry Isham, Edmund Jennings, Edmund Kempe, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Elizabeth Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, Jemima Waldegrave, John & Lawrence Washington, Olive Welby, John West, Hawte Wyatt.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Complete Peerage 11 (1949): 96–97 (sub Ros) has a good account of Sir William de Roos, 1st Lord Roos of Helmsley [died 1316]. Regarding his marriage, the following information is provided:
"He married Maud, younger daughter (and in 1287 coheiress) of John de Vaux, son of Sir Oliver de Vaux." END OF QUOTE.
The following sources are cited in support of this marriage: Cal. of Close Rolls, 1279-88, pp. 497, 530; Complete Peerage, ix, p. 469, note "i."
The reference to Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 469, note i is to an account of Sir William de Nerford, whose wife, Pernel, was the elder sister of Maud de Vaux, wife of Sir William de Roos.
Regarding Sir William de Nerford's marriage, the following information is given by Complete Peerage:
"He married 4 Feb. 1287/8, Pernel, elder daughter and co-heir of Sir John de Vaux (died 1287), son of Sir Oliver de Vaux." END OF QUOTE.
In footnote i on page 469, the following additional information is provided:
"Query by Joan his wife, widow of Roger de Gyney (Assize Roll 506, m. 9). Pernel's younger sister Maud married William de Roos of Hamelake (Cal. Inq. p.m., vol. ii, no. 653; Cal. Close Rolls, 1279-88, p. 530)." END OF QUOTE
As we can see, very little information is given by Complete Peerage regarding Sir John de Vaux, father of Maud and Pernel de Vaux. And, we only have a mere suggestion that Sir John de Vaux's wife, Joan, widow of Roger de Gyney, might be the mother of Sir John's two daughters. But was she?
Cal. IPM 2 (1906): 402–404 indicates Sir John de Vaux died 11 Sept. 1287, and was survived by two daughters and co-heiresses, namely Pernel (born about 1259) and Maud (born about 1261). For this inquisition post mortem, please see the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=rbYKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA402
On 28 October 1287 Sibyl, widow of John de Vaux, appointed William de Bekles and William Norman to receive her dower of John’s lands. On the same date Pernel, daughter of the said John, appointed the same parties to receive her purparty of John's lands. Reference: Cal. of Close Rolls, 1279–1288 (1902): 492, available at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=WzigAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA492&lpg=PA492
Reviewing the above, it appears that Sir John de Vaux (died 1287) had two wives, Joan and Sibyl, and that by one of these wives, he evidently had two daughters, Pernel (born 1259) and Maud (born about 1261).
Recently I was able to locate the lawsuit cited by Complete Peerage concerning Sir John de Vaux and his 1st wife, Joan, widow of Roger de Gyney. The lawsuit is dated 1250. A brief abstract of the lawsuit is provided below.
In 1250 John and his wife, Joan, sued William Aplham, of Refham, Norfolk, regarding the third part of one messuage and three acres of land in Whitwell, Norfolk, which said said Joan claimed as her right of dower by the dotation of Roger de Gyney her former husband; the said William called to warranty Walter de Ingham; the said John and Joan also sued Hugh de Vaux in a plea of dower regarding two messuages, three mills, and eight acres of land with appurtenances in Whitwell, Refham, Swaneton, and Woreford, Norfolk, which Joan claimed as her dower. Reference: Justice Itinerants, JUST1, no. 560, Image 6512f, Year: 1250 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no560/aJUST1no560fronts/IMG_6512.htm).
So who was Joan, widow of Roger de Gyney? Blomefield, Essay towards a Topographical History of Norfolk 8 (1808): 353 (sub Heverland) identifies her as Joan de Pelevile:
"Roger [de Gyney] levied a fine in the 33d of that King, to Beringarius, prior of St. Faith's, of Horsham, the advowson of this church, and married Joan, daughter of - - - - - - - - - -, sister and coheir of Sir Peter de Pelevile, (who remarried Sir John de Vaux,) and by her had Sir William de Gyney, his son and heir, and Sir Roger, who married Margaret, daughter of William Peche." END OF QUOTE.
Curia Regis Rolls 13 (1959): 129 confirms that Roger de Gyney's wife, Joan, was the daughter of Peter de Peleville:
Date: 1227-1230. "Convenit inter Petrum de Pelevill' querentem et Willelmum de Ginney deforciantem de tota terra ipsius Willelmi in Heveringland Dilham et Pichewurth' et alibi, unde placitum conventionis summonitum fuit inter eos in curia domini regis, scilicet quod predictus (sic) Johannes concessit quod decetero terram suam sive redditum non dabit nec vendet nec invadiabit Judeis sive Christianis per quod Rogerus filius et heres predicti Willelmi possit exheredan nisi de consilio et assensu Petri et amicorum utriusque partis. Et preterea idem Willelmus concessit predicto Petro quod, si predictus filius predicti Willelmi obierit priusquam Willelmus pater suus, idem Willelmus faciet Johanne filie ipsius Petri, quam idem Rogerus duxit in uxorem, plenam dotem suam, scilicet terciam partem totius terre sue et redditus cum pertinentiis unde idem Johannes eam dotavit per assensum ejusdem Willelmi patris sui. Idem vero Willelmus providebit eidem Johanne redditum c. solidorum in certo loco ad sustentationem suam, ita scilicet quod idem redditus computabitur eidem Johanne in dotem suam si predictus Rogerus vir suus obierit priusquam Willelmus ..." END OF QUOTE.
As for Roger de Gyney, it appears that he was living as late as 1248-9, when he when as "Roger de Gisnetho," he conveyed the advowson of the church of Heverland, Norfolk to Berenger, of St. Faith of Horsham [Reference: Rye, Short Cal. Feet of Fines for Norfolk 1 (1885): 73].
Given the records cited above, it appears that Sir John de Vaux married before 1250 to Joan de Peleville, widow of Roger de Gyney (living 1248-9), which Joan was the daughter of Peter de Peleville.
So far, so good. But it appears that Joan de Peleville must have died before 1254, when her son, William de Gyney, then aged 30, was named a co-heir of Joan's brother, Peter de Peleville. Cal. of Inq. Post Mortem 1 (1904): 80-86 includes an inquisition post mortem for Peter de Pelevill, of Bilney and Bodney, Norfolk, who died in 1254. The heirs of Peter de Pelevill are named as William de Giney, aged 30 and more, and Sir William de Whithingtone, aged 36 and more.
This inquisition may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol1/pp80-86
An entry in the Fine Rolls of Henry III dated 19 August 1254 sheds additional light on the heirs of Peter de Peleville. It shows that Peter de Peleville's co-heir, William de Gyney, was his nephew.
"19 Aug. Westminster. Concerning homage which has been taken. William de Wyston’ who took to wife Emma sister and one of the heiresses of Peter de Pelevill and William de Gynnay nephew and the other heir of the aforesaid Peter has done fealty to the king for the manors of Bilney and Bodney that the same Peter held of the king in chief for the service of one knight’s fee. Order to the king’s escheator in Norfolk, that having accepted security from the aforesaid William and William 1 for rendering 100s. for their relief at the Exchequer of Michaelmas, to cause the same William and William to have full seisin of all the lands and tenements of which the aforesaid Peter was seised in his demesne as of fee on the day he died in the aforesaid manors. Witness R. earl of Cornwall." END OF QUOTE.
The above entry may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_051.html
Inasmuch as Joan de Peleville, 1st wife of Sir John de Vaux, must have died sometime between 1250 and 1254, she obviously can not be Sir John's wife who was the mother of his two daughters, Pernel and Maud, both of whom were born after 1254. That leaves Sir John's surviving wife, Sibyl, as the candidate to be the mother of the Vaux girls.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Pernel de Vaux and her husband, Sir William de Nerford:
Robert Abell, Humphrey Warren.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Maud de Vaux and her husband, William de Roos, Knt., 1st Lord Roos of Helmsley.
Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Walter Aston, Frances Baldwin, Charles Barnes, Henry, Thomas & William Batte, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Nathaniel Browne, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen Bull, Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth, John, and Thomas Butler, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, William Clopton, William Crymes, James Cudworth, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Anne Derehaugh, William Farrer, John Fenwick, Henry Fleete, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Katherine Hamby, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Anne Humphrey, Henry Isham, Edmund Jennings, Edmund Kempe, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Elizabeth Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, Jemima Waldegrave, John & Lawrence Washington, Olive Welby, John West, Hawte Wyatt.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
joe...@gmail.com
Feb 13, 2017, 7:03:07 PM2/13/17
to
Most excellent analysis. Thank you
WLM
Feb 15, 2017, 12:22:20 PM2/15/17
to
On Monday, February 13, 2017 at 5:19:43 PM UTC-6, Douglas Richardson wrote:
>
> Inasmuch as Joan de Peleville, 1st wife of Sir John de Vaux, must have died sometime between 1250 and 1254, she obviously can not be Sir John's wife who was the mother of his two daughters, Pernel and Maud, both of whom were born after 1254. That leaves Sir John's surviving wife, Sibyl, as the candidate to be the mother of the Vaux girls.
>
>
> Inasmuch as Joan de Peleville, 1st wife of Sir John de Vaux, must have died sometime between 1250 and 1254, she obviously can not be Sir John's wife who was the mother of his two daughters, Pernel and Maud, both of whom were born after 1254. That leaves Sir John's surviving wife, Sibyl, as the candidate to be the mother of the Vaux girls.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas:
Your work has helped greatly to clarify this family. I have run into other sources which try to make additional claims on this family which I hope you can also clarify:
1. I have have found several sources which list Alexander de Vaux (aka Johannes de Vallibus of Dirleton) as an early son (born c1245) of the Sir John de Vaux in your earlier post. Is this accurate or wishful thinking? If true, could Alexander's mother have been Joan de Peleville?
2. I have also seen Sir John's second wife, Sibyl, identified as de Longchamps though I unfortunately did not note her parentage. Again, is this credible in your opinion or to be ignored?
The principal source of this information seems to be "The Family of Vance/Vaux: An Account, Historical and Genealogical, From the Earliest Days to the Present, of the Family of Vance in Ireland, Tans in Scotland, Anciently Vaux in Scotland and England, and Originally de Vaux in France (Latin de Vallibus)" by William Balbirnie, published in Ireland in 1860.
Any insight into this problem will be appreciated.
WLM
bmcdon...@gmail.com
Feb 15, 2017, 12:38:55 PM2/15/17
to
> 1. I have have found several sources which list Alexander de Vaux (aka Johannes de Vallibus of Dirleton) as an early son (born c1245) of the Sir John de Vaux in your earlier post. Is this accurate or wishful thinking? If true, could Alexander's mother have been Joan de Peleville?
>
>
> WLM
John Watson
Feb 15, 2017, 3:06:02 PM2/15/17
to
Sibyl, second wife of John de Vaux was not from the family of Longchamps, although there is a Longchamps connection. John de Vaux's mother was Pernel de Craon. She married firstly William de Longchamps who died about 1203, secondly Henry de la Mare who died before 1211, and thirdly Oliver de Vaux who died after 1245. Pernel died shortly before 28 March 1262.
Regards,
John
mk
Feb 15, 2017, 4:23:20 PM2/15/17
to John Watson, GenMedieval
What do you make of Simon de Eldersfield?
The lordship of FOXLEY manor may have descended with Eldersfield manor
(Worcs.) from Roger's nephew William of Berkeley (fl before 1147) to
William's son William (fl. 1195) and to the younger William's son Robert
(fl 1210–12), (fn. 45)
<http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp83-89#fnn45> and in
1242–3 belonged to Simon of Eldersfield. (fn. 46)
<http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp83-89#fnn46> Simon was
possibly the husband of Parnel de la Mare, (fn. 47)
<http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp83-89#fnn47> and
thereafter Foxley manor descended in the de la Mare family, members of
which held Hardwick manor in Eldersfield and Rendcomb manor (Glos.). (fn.
48) <http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp83-89#fnn48>
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp83-89
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
The lordship of FOXLEY manor may have descended with Eldersfield manor
(Worcs.) from Roger's nephew William of Berkeley (fl before 1147) to
William's son William (fl. 1195) and to the younger William's son Robert
(fl 1210–12), (fn. 45)
<http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp83-89#fnn45> and in
1242–3 belonged to Simon of Eldersfield. (fn. 46)
<http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp83-89#fnn46> Simon was
possibly the husband of Parnel de la Mare, (fn. 47)
<http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp83-89#fnn47> and
thereafter Foxley manor descended in the de la Mare family, members of
which held Hardwick manor in Eldersfield and Rendcomb manor (Glos.). (fn.
48) <http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp83-89#fnn48>
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp83-89
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
John Watson
Feb 15, 2017, 4:57:51 PM2/15/17
to
On Wednesday, 15 February 2017 21:23:20 UTC, mk wrote:
> What do you make of Simon de Eldersfield?
>
I don't see any connection with the Vaux family who are the subject of this thread. What connection can you see?
> What do you make of Simon de Eldersfield?
>
Regards,
John
mk
Feb 15, 2017, 5:05:33 PM2/15/17
to John Watson, GenMedieval
It says that Pernel de la Mare is possibly his wife. The manors of Foxley
and Rendcomb were connected and Pernel de Craon married both Oliver de Vaux
and Henry de la Mare. The timeline fits our Pernel.
and Rendcomb were connected and Pernel de Craon married both Oliver de Vaux
and Henry de la Mare. The timeline fits our Pernel.
joanke...@gmail.com
Jan 19, 2019, 10:49:53 PM1/19/19
to
Douglas, fine work.
I am hunting desperately to confirm the son of William De Ros and Maud De Vaux.
Jordan de Kendall, knight/ archer is listed by many of my relatives as the son of William and Lady Maud.
Please help me in any way you can, as a curator is cutting my family tree off at Jordan / geni.com.
Jordan may also be known as Jordan de Kendale Kendall
He is my link between the Kendall and de Ros clans.
I am a newbie at this business, so any suggestions would be helpful.
Jordan evidently married Cecily Colville and was born in Sussex aroung 1290-1291.
He was an archer, something about sheep and being in debt.
Aloha from Hawaii
wjhonson
Jan 20, 2019, 12:41:32 PM1/20/19
to
On Saturday, January 19, 2019 at 7:49:53 PM UTC-8, joanke...@gmail.com wrote:
> Douglas, fine work.
> I am hunting desperately to confirm the son of William De Ros and Maud De Vaux.
> Jordan de Kendall, knight/ archer is listed by many of my relatives as the son of William and Lady Maud.
> Please help me in any way you can, as a curator is cutting my family tree off at Jordan / geni.com.
>
> Jordan may also be known as Jordan de Kendale Kendall
> He is my link between the Kendall and de Ros clans.
>
> I am a newbie at this business, so any suggestions would be helpful.
> Jordan evidently married Cecily Colville and was born in Sussex aroung 1290-1291.
>
> He was an archer, something about sheep and being in debt.
> Aloha from Hawaii
>
>
Joan
> Douglas, fine work.
> I am hunting desperately to confirm the son of William De Ros and Maud De Vaux.
> Jordan de Kendall, knight/ archer is listed by many of my relatives as the son of William and Lady Maud.
> Please help me in any way you can, as a curator is cutting my family tree off at Jordan / geni.com.
>
> Jordan may also be known as Jordan de Kendale Kendall
> He is my link between the Kendall and de Ros clans.
>
> I am a newbie at this business, so any suggestions would be helpful.
> Jordan evidently married Cecily Colville and was born in Sussex aroung 1290-1291.
>
> He was an archer, something about sheep and being in debt.
> Aloha from Hawaii
>
>
The first useful known person there is
Robert de /Kendale/ of Woodcroft Manor 1310-; Knt
Who died in 1330
Athough his father is called
"Sir Jorden de Kendale" and his wife is some Miss Colville (not named Cecily), there is *nothing whatsoever* known about him.
supe...@gmail.com
Jan 24, 2019, 11:36:06 PM1/24/19
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Pernel de Vaux is named after her grandmother Petronilla/Pernel de Craon wife of Oliver de Vaux.
Pam
wjhonson
Jan 29, 2019, 12:51:53 PM1/29/19
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On Thursday, January 24, 2019 at 8:36:06 PM UTC-8, supe...@gmail.com wrote:
> Pernel de Vaux is named after her grandmother Petronilla/Pernel de Craon wife of Oliver de Vaux.
>
> Pam
https://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=wjhonson&id=I159754&style=TEXT
> Pernel de Vaux is named after her grandmother Petronilla/Pernel de Craon wife of Oliver de Vaux.
>
> Pam
celticp...@gmail.com
Jan 29, 2019, 1:03:21 PM1/29/19
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Dear Joan ~
My records indicates that Sir William de Roos, 1st Lord Roos of Helmsley (died 1316) and his wife, Maud de Vaux, had four sons, William, Knt., John, Knt. [Lord Roos of Watton], Thomas, and George, and three daughters, Agnes, Alice, and possibly Margaret.
There was no son Jordan. Sorry.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
My records indicates that Sir William de Roos, 1st Lord Roos of Helmsley (died 1316) and his wife, Maud de Vaux, had four sons, William, Knt., John, Knt. [Lord Roos of Watton], Thomas, and George, and three daughters, Agnes, Alice, and possibly Margaret.
There was no son Jordan. Sorry.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
shawn....@gmail.com
Feb 18, 2019, 11:03:19 PM2/18/19
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I'm also looking for Sir Jordan(den) de Kendall
shawn....@gmail.com
Feb 18, 2019, 11:05:35 PM2/18/19
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I am also looking for Sir Jordan(den) de Kendall(dale)'s father.
Like be lurking and if I ever find anything I'll share.
Like be lurking and if I ever find anything I'll share.
wjhonson
Feb 19, 2019, 12:09:14 PM2/19/19
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On Monday, February 18, 2019 at 8:03:19 PM UTC-8, shawn....@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm also looking for Sir Jordan(den) de Kendall
Well then start here
> I'm also looking for Sir Jordan(den) de Kendall
https://books.google.com/books?id=okhFAAAAYAAJ&as_brr=3&pg=PA173#v=onepage&q&f=true
and try to *verify* anything in this chart at all
Anything
lancast...@gmail.com
Sep 18, 2022, 12:21:44 PM9/18/22
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I'd like to add some evidence relevant to this old discussion. Despite what Blomefield says, the IPM of John de Vaux seems to say that Maud the daughter of John Vaux, first married William Gyney and then secondly remarried to William de Ros? https://archive.org/details/cu31924011387804/page/402/mode/2up
Maybe Blomefield is not wrong? He says that John's own wife Joan de Pelevile was first married to Roger Gyney, evidently the father of that William. I suppose this is not impossible, but if I am reading right then this is extra evidence against Joan de Pelevile being mother of Maud de Ros. That would mean that her first husband Roger Gyney was her half brother.
Maybe Blomefield is not wrong? He says that John's own wife Joan de Pelevile was first married to Roger Gyney, evidently the father of that William. I suppose this is not impossible, but if I am reading right then this is extra evidence against Joan de Pelevile being mother of Maud de Ros. That would mean that her first husband Roger Gyney was her half brother.
Richard Ebdon
Sep 19, 2022, 10:34:07 AM9/19/22
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On Sunday, 18 September 2022 at 17:21:44 UTC+1, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'd like to add some evidence relevant to this old discussion. Despite what Blomefield says, the IPM of John de Vaux seems to say that Maud the daughter of John Vaux, first married William Gyney and then secondly remarried to William de Ros? https://archive.org/details/cu31924011387804/page/402/mode/2up
>
> Maybe Blomefield is not wrong? He says that John's own wife Joan de Pelevile was first married to Roger Gyney, evidently the father of that William. I suppose this is not impossible, but if I am reading right then this is extra evidence against Joan de Pelevile being mother of Maud de Ros. That would mean that her first husband Roger Gyney was her half brother.
Douglas Richardson explains John Vaux's widow Sibyl as being the mother of Maud de Ros, and not his first wife Joan de Peleville. In his comment (first post above) he explains that his first wife Joan must have died before 1254. -
> I'd like to add some evidence relevant to this old discussion. Despite what Blomefield says, the IPM of John de Vaux seems to say that Maud the daughter of John Vaux, first married William Gyney and then secondly remarried to William de Ros? https://archive.org/details/cu31924011387804/page/402/mode/2up
>
> Maybe Blomefield is not wrong? He says that John's own wife Joan de Pelevile was first married to Roger Gyney, evidently the father of that William. I suppose this is not impossible, but if I am reading right then this is extra evidence against Joan de Pelevile being mother of Maud de Ros. That would mean that her first husband Roger Gyney was her half brother.
"Inasmuch as Joan de Peleville, 1st wife of Sir John de Vaux, must have died sometime between 1250 and 1254, she obviously can not be Sir John's wife who was the mother of his two daughters, Pernel and Maud, both of whom were born after 1254. That leaves Sir John's surviving wife, Sibyl, as the candidate to be the mother of the Vaux girls."
lancast...@gmail.com
Sep 19, 2022, 3:01:05 PM9/19/22
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Richard Ebdon
Sep 20, 2022, 3:11:15 AM9/20/22
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Regards.
Richard Ebdon.
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