Louis the Stammerer's daughter Ermentrude
Stewart, Peter
(Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993) that will have found its way over the past ten
years into many people's ancestry data: on page 318 Christian Settipani
mistakenly gives Charles III the Simple as the only child of Louis II the
Stammerer's second wife Adelaide, wrongly giving his sister Ermentrude as a
daughter of their father's first wife Ansgarde. The mistake is repeated in
table 7 on page 431.
However, Ermentrude is correctly shown as Adelaide's daughter, and
full-sister to Charles the Simple, by both of the sources Settipani cites,
Erich Brandenburg [_Die Nachkommen Karls des Großen, I.-XIV. Generation_
(Frankfurt am Main, 1964) no. V 25] and Karl Ferdinand Werner ['Die
Nachkommen Karls des Grossen bis um das Jahr 1000 (1-8 Generation)', _Karl
der Grosse: Lebenswerk und Nachleben_, 5 vols, ed Wolfgang Braunfels &
others (Dusseldorf, 1965-68), vol 4, p 457 and no. V 37 in table]. But,
while attributing their children accurately, Werner retained the
mislabelling of Louis the Stammerer's wives (as "b" and "c" respectively
instead of "a" and "b") after he had omitted the Breton princess given as
spouse "a" by Brandenburg (this marriage had been agreed but evidently did
not take place).
Although these secondary works don't cite a primary source, the information
comes from Witger's mid-10th century _Genealogia Arnulfi comitis_ [edited by
Ludwig Bethmann, MGH Scriptores IX 302-304, p 303]: "Hlodovicus rex genuit
Hludovicum et Karlomannum et Hildegardim ex Ansgardi vocata regina, Karolum
quoque postumum et Irmintrudim ex Adelheidi regina" (trans: Louis begot
Louis, Carloman and Hildegarde from Ansgard, called queen [NB this title was
contentious because Louis repudiated her, due to his father's disapproval of
their marriage, without sanction from the pope], also Charles, posthumously,
and Ermentrude from Queen Adelaide).
This seems to be another example of Settipani miscopying from Werner
miscopying from Brandenburg, as with the purported date of death for
Countess Gerberge of Louvain discussed recently. I'm not doing a systematic
check, and I trust this is just an unlucky co-incidence rather than a
pattern of relying on secondary sources & paying inadequate attention to
detail in them. This particular mistake will need to be corrected in the
second part of Settipani's work, or his promised hypothesis on the famous
descent from Ermentrude through her daughter Cunegonde (wife of Wigeric)
could come badly unstuck.
Peter Stewart
Christian Settipani
> I've just noticed a major error in _La préhistoire des Capétiens 481-987_
> (Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993) that will have found its way over the past ten
> years into many people's ancestry data: on page 318 Christian Settipani
> mistakenly gives Charles III the Simple as the only child of Louis II the
> Stammerer's second wife Adelaide, wrongly giving his sister Ermentrude as
a
> daughter of their father's first wife Ansgarde. The mistake is repeated in
> table 7 on page 431.
That is perfectly right. In the Addenda to the "Prehistoire", written in
1994/5 and never published but privately distributed, I wrote :
"Contrairement a ce que nous écrivons par megarde, Ermentrudis est la fille
de Louis et de sa seconde epouse, Adelais, comme l'indique la 'genealogia'
de Witger. Pour des raisons chronologiques liees à sa descendance, sa
naissance est a mettre le plus tot possible, donc des 871 sans doute (voire
meme plus tot si elle est nee avant le mariage de ses parents, et des 865 en
fait croyons-nous). On corrigera dans ce sens le tableau genealogique no 7".
Thanks to Peter for his precision.
CS
_
Stewart, Peter
It's a pity your Addenda & Corrigenda could not have been distributed with
the book since 1994/5. Can you let us know how to obtain a copy? And was
there a further notice about the date of death for Countess Gerberga of
Louvain?
I'm not sure why there should be a question of Ermentrude's birth before
Adelaide became the wife of Louis - are not his divorce from Ansgarde and
marriage to Adelaide supposed to have been imposed by Charles the Bald? And
if so, is there any evidence that he chose his son's mistress as the bride
preferred to Ansgarde?
The chronology from Ermentrude down to her grandson's election as bishop of
Metz in 929 might be rendered more comfortable by the earliest possible
birth date, but not as unsupported conjecture.
Peter Stewart
Stewart Baldwin
On a related matter, in footnote 865 of the same page (318), after
briefly mentioning the problem of the marriages of Cunigund (daughter
of Ermentrude) and the problem of identifying Ermentrude's husband,
you indicated that the second part will propose a different solution.
Would it be possible to give a brief description of the proposed
solution to which you were referring?
Stewart Baldwin
Christian Settipani
> On a related matter, in footnote 865 of the same page (318), after
> briefly mentioning the problem of the marriages of Cunigund (daughter
> of Ermentrude) and the problem of identifying Ermentrude's husband,
> you indicated that the second part will propose a different solution.
> Would it be possible to give a brief description of the proposed
> solution to which you were referring?
>
The chapter on Wigericides was drafted for almost ten years, and since the
publication of the 'Prehistoire II', is desperately late, maybe it would be
desirable that I update it for a separate publication. As soon as I would
have finished my two next books.
Very briefly :
A) Ermentrudis, daughter of Louis II, is the mother of Cunegundis, mother of
Giselbert and Gauslin, father of Reginhar;
B) Giselbert, duke of Lorraine, is the son of Reginhar and Alberada; he is
the father of Alberada, mother of Giselbert and Ermentrudis (of Roucy).
One admits usually that Reginhar got married twice: with Ermentrudis who
gives him Cunegundis, and with Aberada, who give him Giselbert.
I suggest rather to distinguish (with some old scholars):
Reginhar, count 877-886 (*v.850, + 886/95), husband of Ermentrudis (* c.
865?), daughter of Louis II (* 846), parents of:
-Reginhar, count 895-915 (*v.880, + 915), husband of Alberada, father of
Giselbert (*c.900, + 939), father of Alberada, mother of Giselbert and
Ermentrudis (of Roucy)
-Cunegundis ( v.890 ), wife of Wigeric, mother of Giselbert and Gauslin,
father of Reginhar
-etc.
This reconstruction supposes so that Ermentrudis, Louis II's daughter, had
been born appreciably before 870, when her mother was married to her father.
The young Louis (born in 846) was very well able to have a love relation
with Ermentrudis before his marriage with Ansgardis.
As far as my Addenda, it would be necessary that I revise it before thinking
for publicatin. Some extracts were published recently in the review 'History
and Computing', 12,1 (2000), p. 59-72 (with, regrettably, numerous
misprints).
CS
Willem Nabuurs
In your first part of Prehistoire you discuss Giselbert, count in the
Maasgau, who is usually considered to be the father of count Reginhar
(+915), and the doubts some authors like Brandenburg had with this
filiation, and you refer to the forthcoming second part of Prehistoire for
further discussion of this topic.
From your comments below it seems that you have a new theory on the father
of Reginhar (+915).
I don't know if you want to post your arguments for this theory on the
newsgroup, but if so I would be very interested.
Willem Nabuurs
""Christian Settipani"" <ina...@club-internet.fr> wrote in message
news:000601c2be80$a82232a0$6413...@wanadoo.fr.wanadoo.fr...
jlsoler
publications of his books, he should find a way to sell his articles by the
web or somthing else.
Mereover, lots of what he writes, is published in private or confidential
papers, and .... i would like to read them. so i don't know how to do
jl
"Willem Nabuurs" <w.na...@pinkroccade.com> a écrit dans le message de
news: 8c1c56bb.03011...@posting.google.com...
Peter Stewart
<snip>
> This reconstruction supposes so that Ermentrudis, Louis II's daughter, had
> been born appreciably before 870, when her mother was married to her father.
> The young Louis (born in 846) was very well able to have a love relation
> with Ermentrudis before his marriage with Ansgardis.
One hopes not - since Ermentrudis was his own daughter. Christian
meant to say that Louis could have had "a love relation with Adelais",
her mother, who became his second wife.
My question remains, is there any evidence that his father chose a
mistress, with whom Louis already had a daughter, to supplant his
first wife Ansgardis?
I have no problem with Christian's chronology, however: I think rather
that the second marriage of Louis, to Adelais, was recognised at his
father's court ca 867/8, immediately after his repudiation of
Ansgardis & anyway before 870 and before a formal annulment of the
first union had been finalised. In other words, Ermentrudis was born
to a king & queen.
Louis was made king of Aquitaine in March 867. When Witger said that
Ansgardis was "called queen" he probably meant that by an official
view she had never held this dignity. The marriage to Adelais probably
took place fairly soon after Louis was made a king, and when the bride
was still quite young, perhaps just of marriageable age. It then seems
to have taken nearly ten years before these facts were accepted, if
not yet beyond dispute, in all quarters.
Peter Stewart