Domesday Descent: Walter 'the Deacon' to Sir Martin de la See
Cristopher Nash
on the start of this intriguing line? (It's probably just a matter
of format. E.g. your two sequences of 'footnote' numbers might be
thought to be tussling with each other, at least so far as the
possible duplication of '[1]' and '[2]' -- but not their contents --
goes?)
>1 Walter the Deacon[1]
>----------------------------------------
>
>of Little Easton, co. Essex
>
>'Walter Diaconus', holder of the barony of Little Easton at Domesday Book,
> 1086[1]
>
>Spouse: NN
>
>Children: Robert (-<1129)
> Edith
> Walter
> Alexander
>
>1.1 Robert de Hastings
>----------------------------------------
>Death: bef 1129[1]
>
>of Little Easton, co. Essex[2]
>held 10 knights' fees and lands in London, Middlesex, Essex incl.
> Little Easton, and Suffolk[3]
>
>also known as Robert fitz Walter - attested charters as Robert de
> Windsor due to relationship with that family[1]
>
>* elsewhere identified in error as Robert, son of Walter fitz Other (and
> thereby brother of Gerald, not brother-in-law) - [cf. Barlow, William
> Rufus, pp. 134, 470[4] ]
>
>called William de Hastings ' I ' by Eyton [p. 134-5][5]
>
>Spouse: NN de Windsor[3]
>Father: Walter fitz Other (->1099)
>Mother: Beatrice
Is it possible that in the last 3 lines there's a residual conflation
of Walter Diaconus and Walter fitz Other, whom just above you've
taken good pains to distinguish?
I note that you call 1.1 Robert 'de Hastings' and his spouse 'de
Windsor', and say that he --
>attested charters as Robert de Windsor due to relationship with that family[1]
-- whereas -- minor point -- K-R in DD (789) reverses this, saying
Robert attests as of Windsor, implying that the name Hastings arises
from his significant relationship with the Hastings (e.g. via
'William his dispencer' and William's paternal uncle Ralph I of
Hastings), and that it 'was perhaps [Robert's] wife who brought the
name of Hastings'. Any special thinking behind this? (Perhaps K-R
turns it around -- I've not checked -- in her Prosopon Number 11
article?)
BTW, by --
> called William de Hastings ' I ' by Eyton
-- do you mean that Robert is the same individual as William and
merely erroneously named by Eyton, or is it more complicated than
that? (Normally I'd've thought your point concerned only Eyton's
using 'I', where other Williams were involved, but I've trouble in
finding another William here.)
Apologies if I seem befuddled. Maybe I should ask Geraldine.
Yrs,
Cris
--
Reedpcgen
There is also some acknowledged fraud in some of the early charters, but it
clearly goes beyond what has been accepted as fraudulent. I haven't time at
the moment to put everything I have on hand together, but will try very soon.
Paul
John Ravilious
Dear Cris,
My apologies for any confusion that ensued, other than that engendered
by our ancestors. My own preference would, of course, have been a nice
orderly system of registered birth certificates, marriage licences & c.,
but then that would take the fun out of the process, non?
Responses interspersed below.
c...@windsong.u-net.com (Cristopher Nash) wrote in message news:<a05100302bbe918bf2194@[10.0.1.2]>...
> Hi John - just wonder if we might have a bit of further clarificat.
> on the start of this intriguing line? (It's probably just a matter
> of format. E.g. your two sequences of 'footnote' numbers might be
> thought to be tussling with each other, at least so far as the
> possible duplication of '[1]' and '[2]' -- but not their contents --
> goes?)
<<<<<<<<<<<< INSERT >>>>>>>>>>>>>
As indicated in the original post, the first notes are those to the
post (message) itself - 2 only ([1] and [2]). Those notes directly
documenting the following pedigree follow the pedigree, and are a
separate series.
Confusion may originate from the fact that the work of K.S.B. Keats-Rohan
is referenced in footnote [2] of the post, and also [1] of the pedigree.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<< INSERT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually, no. These lines represent the unnamed spouse of Robert de
Hastings, and her mother and father. The designation "de Windsor" assigned
to the daughter of Walter fitz Other is simply due to his having been
castellan of Windsor (his son, the noted Gerald, is also known as "de
Windsor" or "of Windsor", as well as "Gerold filius Walteri" [DD p. 968]).
Insofar as I know, Walter 'the Deacon' ["diaconus"] held at Little
Easton, Essex at Domesday Book, and had no relation to Walter fitz Other
other than that created by their children....
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> I note that you call 1.1 Robert 'de Hastings' and his spouse 'de
> Windsor', and say that he --
>
> >attested charters as Robert de Windsor due to relationship with that family[1]
>
> -- whereas -- minor point -- K-R in DD (789) reverses this, saying
> Robert attests as of Windsor, implying that the name Hastings arises
> from his significant relationship with the Hastings (e.g. via
> 'William his dispencer' and William's paternal uncle Ralph I of
> Hastings), and that it 'was perhaps [Robert's] wife who brought the
> name of Hastings'. Any special thinking behind this? (Perhaps K-R
> turns it around -- I've not checked -- in her Prosopon Number 11
> article?)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< INSERT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I don't believe Robert of Little Easton [1.1 in the pedigree of the
original post] acquired the designation 'de Hastings' from either 'William
[de Hastings] his dispencer' {grandson of Robert; 1.1.2a.1 in the pedigree}
or from William's uncle Ralph I {elder son of Robert; 1.1.1 in the pedigree}.
In the Prosopon article, KSB K-R does not render a final answer to the
question of where the designation "de Hastings" derived from, but did
ponder whether or not it actually was somehow derived from the daughter of
Walter fitz Other, the wife of Robert (fitz Walter, de Hastings, & c.). The
full text of that portion of the Prosopon article dealing with Little
Easton follows (page reference is to Sanders):
" Little Easton (p. 130)
The descent of this fee has caused a great deal of confusion. Robert of
Windsor was not son of Walther fitz Other, but son and successor of Walter
the Deacon, Domesday holder of the barony of Little Easton. Family charters
relating to his succession refer to him as Robert fitz Walter, but he
appears to have attested charters in his lifetime as Robert of Windsor,
probably taking his byname from his connexion to the family of Walter fitz
Other of Windsor whose daughter he had married and whose son Maurice had
married his sister Edith. The relationship is established by the fact that
Henry II's charter giving the stewardship of Bury to William his dispencer
is very specific in its description of the relationships between William
and his predecessors in the office. William's immediate predecessor was
his paternal uncle (patruus) Ralph I of Hastings, a son of Robert fitz
Walter; Ralph of Hastings had inherited the office from his maternal
uncle (avunculus) Maurice of Windsor (his mother's brother who had
probably derived his right through his wife Edith). Robert was dead by
1128, when Henry I notified his men that he had rendered the lands of
Robert fitz Walter de Windsor to his son William (Cal. Charter Rolls
ii, p. 137). It was perhaps his wife who brought the name of Hastings
to their descendants. She may soon have remarried to Hugh de Waterville,
who accounted for his wife's dower in Bilstone, in the fief of Walter the
Deacon, in 1129/30. Father of William fitz Robert, alias de Hastings,
Ralph I and Richard de Hastings, Alice de Hastings, Emma de Hastings,
wife of Walter de Excestre; probably also father of Robert de Windresor
who attested several Wix and Bacton charters c. 1130-55. "
>
> BTW, by --
>
> > called William de Hastings ' I ' by Eyton
>
> -- do you mean that Robert is the same individual as William and
> merely erroneously named by Eyton, or is it more complicated than
> that? (Normally I'd've thought your point concerned only Eyton's
> using 'I', where other Williams were involved, but I've trouble in
> finding another William here.)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< INSERT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually, this insertion should be under his son William, and not
Robert. My typo, not Eyton's. This has to do with Eyton's numeration
concerning the William de Hastings who were acting as royal dispensers
and/or stewards of Bury St. Edmunds. You will find no other Williams
(de Hastings) in the pedigree, as this designation passed to William
de Hastings of Aston-Flamville, son of Hugh (and another grandson of
Robert fitz Walter/de Hastings/de Windsor..) and ancestor of the
Hastings of Abergavenny (Earls of Pembroke) and of Elsing and Gressenhall.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> Apologies if I seem befuddled. Maybe I should ask Geraldine.
<<<<<<<<<<<<< INSERT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As long as that Geraldine was not an immediate descendant of those
under discussion. Such a Geraldine would likely have the answer; problem
being, assuming normal mortality, the answer will not be forthcoming. ;)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Yrs,
>
> Cris
>
> --
Cheers, and Happy Turkey Day! (unless you're gyro-ating to another beta)
John
John Ravilious
Dear Paul,
Thanks for that. Any added insights, corrections & c. to the 'accepted'
Hastings pedigree will certainly be appreciated.
The original post starting this thread seems to run afoul of a newsgroup
or other posting problem. I am appending the full text below.
_______________________________________
Subj: Domesday Descent: Walter 'the Deacon' to Sir Martin de la See
Date: 11/25/2003 8:29:15 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: Therav3
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Tuesday, 25 November, 2003
Hello All,
The ancestry of the wives of Sir Martin de la See, of Barmston,
co. Yorks. (esp. of Elizabeth Wentworth) has been of special interest
in the past, but that of Sir Martin himself has received little
attention outside of Poulson's history of Holderness [1].
Based upon the research of K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, the ancestry of
Matilda Monceaux, heiress of Barmeston and mother of Sir Martin de
la See, can be traced to John fitz Waleran of Herstmonceux, Sussex,
and also to Robert fitz Walter (aka Robert de Hastings) of Little
Easton, Essex. Robert de Hastings is a notable ancestor: being the
son of one Domesday tenant (Walter 'the Deacon') and son-in-law
of another (Walter fitz Other, ancestor of the Geraldine families),
he was also ancestor of the Hastings families of Elsing and Gissing,
and of the Hastings counts of Eu.
This line of descent provides Sir Martin de la See with some
interesting (if distant) collateral relations. Further, this also
expands the known ancestry of his descendants, including the
Boynton family of Barmeston, the Hildyards of Winestead, the
Kelkes of Barnetby le Wold, and the following 17th century emigrants:
1. William Asfordby
2. William Bladen
3. William Farrar
4. William Skepper
The following pedigree shows the descent from Walter 'the
Deacon' to Sir Martin de la See, and also indicates the connections
to the other identified ancestors who were tenants at Domesday
Book (1086). Should anyone have any comment, criticism or know
of relevant additional documentation (pro or con), please advise.
Cheers,
John
NOTES (to post):
[1] George Poulson, Esq., The History and Antiquities of the Seigniory
of Holderness (Hull: Thomas Topping, and W. Pickering, 1840-41),
2 vols.
[2] K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Additions and Corrections to Sanders’s Baronies
Prosopon, Number 11 (July 2000)," Prosopon 11 (July 2000), re:
Little Easton (p. 130). Online at
www. linacre.ox.ac.uk/research/Prosop
Also, K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants
(Woodbridge: The Boydell Press, 2002).
________________________________
Spouse: NN
Children: Ralph (->1158)
William (-<1167)
Hugh (-<1152), of Aston Flamville
* Ancestor of ELSING and GISSING families
1.1.1 Ralph de Hastings
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1158, d.s.p.[5]
royal dispenser (successor to his uncle Maurice fitz Walter)[1]
also his successor as hereditary steward of the Abbey of St. Edmundsbury,
Suffolk (confirmed by charter from King Henry II)[5]
'His heir and successor as dapifer was his nephew William fitz
William [sic] de Hastings, who was confirmed in his position by
Henry II in 1164' (DD, p. 505)[6]
1.1.2a William de Hastings*
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1167[7]
of Little Easton, co. Essex[7]
had livery of his father's lands, 1128[1]
he m. lstly NN,
2ndly Juliana 'filia John fitz Waleran'
____________________________
re: his second wife, Juliana:
she m. lstly William de Hastings (evidently 2nd wife),
2ndly Robert Doisnel[1]
identified in the Pipe Roll of 30 Hen I (1130):
"Essex..
Juliana, wife of William of Hastings, owes £6 from old
aid of knights from the fief of Waleran, her grandfather..."[8]
___________________________
re: John fitz Waleran, father of Juliana:
of Herstmonceux and Warberton, Sussex
'John's heir was his daughter Juliana, wife in 1129 of William of
Hastings (PR 31 Henry I, 58). She was subsequently the wife of
Robert Doisnel, a royal marshal whose daughter Juliana was married
to Henry II's servant William fitz Aldelin and died without issue.
In 1199 her heirs in both the land of John fitz Waleran and the
marshal serjeanty held by Robert Doisnel were William of Warberton
and Ingelran de Monceux, whose rights derived from his wife Idonea
de Monceux (Farrer, HKF iii, 376). William, the senior heir, and
Idonea, were probably descendants of the elder Juliana's first
marriage to William of Hastings. Part of the inheritance they
shared was five fees at Herstmonceaux and Warberton held of the
count of Eu in the Rape of Hastings.'[1]
NOTE: Juliana Doisnel was the daughter of Juliana by her second husband,
Robert Doisnel[1]
Spouse: Juliana
Father: John fitz Waleran, of Herstmonceux and Warberton, Sussex
Marr: bef 1130[1]
Children: William
NN, a daughter (mother of Idonea)
NN, a daughter (mother of William de Warberton)
Other Spouses NN [mother of Robert de Hastings,
of Little Easton, co. Essex]
1.1.2a.1 William de Hastings
----------------------------------------
despenser to King Henry II
confirmed in the office of Ralph de Hastings his uncle ('patruus')
as steward of Bury St. Edmunds, 1164/5[6]
NOTE: His successor in this office was his cousin William
de Hastings (of the Aston Flamville family)
1.1.2a.2 NN de Hastings
----------------------------------------
~the mother of Idonea, wife of Ingram de Monceaux was
evidently the child of Juliana 'filia Johanni' :
1. Idonea was coheiress of Juliana Doisnel together
with William de Warberton[1]; to have equal right
as coheir with William, Idonea must have been
either a daughter of Juliana, or daughter of a
daughter of Juliana (and William the son of
a daughter of Juliana, other than the mother of
Idonea)
Spouse: NN
Children: Idonea
1.1.2a.2.1 Idonea
----------------------------------------
'one of the heiresses of John fitz Waleran,..' (DD, p. 590)
she and her son Robert were benefactors of Robertsbridge abbey
(DD p. 590, citing Facsimiles of Charters in the British Museum, 61)[6]
re: her husband, Sir Ingram de Monceaux:
of Barmeston and Winkton, co. York[9]
' Engelr[amus] de Mounceaus', confirmed gift by Henry Foliot of 1
bovate in Sunderlandwick to the church of St. Peter, York, with
the consent of his son Robert, ca. 1175 or before [EYC II:38, no.
682; cites Reg.Mag.Album, pt. ii, f. 61d.][10]
as to Ingram de Monceaux's holdings in right of his wife,
K. Keats-Rohan wrote,
' John fitz Waleran was not the ancestor of the Tanys of
Aveley. They descended from the issue of Matilda, heiress
and doubtless daughter of the Roger who held it in 1086
from John fitz Waleran. John's heir was his daughter Juliana,
wife in 1129 of William of Hastings (PR 31 Henry I, 58).
She was subsequently the wife of Robert Doisnel, a royal
marshal whose daughter Juliana was married to Henry II's
servant William fitz Aldelin and died without issue. In
1199 her heirs in both the land of John fitz Waleran and
the marshal serjeanty held by Robert Doisnel were
William of Warberton and Ingelran de Monceux, whose
rights derived from his wife Idonea de Monceux
(Farrer, HKF iii, 376). William, the senior heir, and
Idonea, were probably descendants of the elder
Juliana's first marriage to William of Hastings. Part
of the inheritance they shared was five fees at
Herstmonceaux and Warberton held of the count of
Eu in the Rape of Hastings. '[1]
Spouse: Sir Ingram de Monceaux, of Barmston and Winkton, co. Yorks.
Death: aft 1225[9]
Father: Sir Alan de Monceaux (->1181), of Barmeston, co. Yorks.
Mother: Matilda
Marr: bef 1199[6],[1]
Children: Sir Robert (->1272)
Waleran, of Herstmonceaux, Sussex
1.1.2a.2.1.1 Sir Robert de Monceaux
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1272[9]
knight, of Lisset, Barmeston cum Winketon and Hertburn
benefactor of the Priory of Nunkeling, in Holderness[9]
assented to the confirmation by his father of Henry Foliot's gift to
St. Mary, York, ca. 1175 or before[10]
[ he later confirmed the gift 'in the same terms' - EYC II:38 note,
cites R.M.A., f. 62][10]
witness to confirmation of maritagium of his (half) sister Alice[11]
(Keats-Rohan claims this was Robert, son of Sir Alan, based on MS
Bodl. Top. Lincs. d. ii, fols 6v, 12v, 14r[6])
Spouse: Hawise[9]
Children: Sir Ingram (-<1297)
James (->1279), of Winkton, co. Yorks.
1.1.2a.2.1.1.1 Sir Ingram de Monceaux
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1297[9],[12]
knight, of Barmeston, Winkton, Lisset and Hertburn, co. York
made grant to son John of the manor and advowson of Barmeston on
condition of £140 per year from their son Thomas [sic], 1289[9]
" Ingelram Mounceux was seised of 2 messuages, 3 cottages and 16
oxgangs in Bointon (as in DDWB/20/17), temp. Ed. I. He gave them
to his daughter Alice and her husband William de Bointon, and heirs
of their bodies, from whom they passed successively to Ingellram of
Bointon, William (Walter) of Bointon, Thomas of Bointon, Thomas
Bointon and Henry Bointon (all sons and heirs of predocessors)."[11]
d. before 1297:
record from the record of King's Court, Westminster (Trinity term,
25 Edw. I [1297]), as to proof of age (21) of son and heir John
de Monceaux:
" Eboracum:- Probacio etatis Johannis filii et heredis Ingramii de
Munceaus defuncti ponitur in respectum vsque in
octabis sancti Michaelis vbicumque &c pro defectu
Juratorum quia nullus &c. Ideo Vicecomes habeat
corpora omnium Juratorum coram Rege ad prefatum
terminum &c. "
[Pleas of the Court of King's Bench, Trinity term,
25 Edward I, 1297, p. 1[12] ]
Spouse: Emma de Markington[9]
Father: Robert de Markington
Marr: bef 1277[12]
Children: John (<1277-<1300)
Thomas (-<1349)
1.1.2a.2.1.1.1.1 John de Monceaux
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 1277[12]
Death: bef 1300, d.s.p.[9]
of Barmeston, Winkton, Lisset and Hertburn, co. York
probably, d.s.p.s.
witness of demise of Sir Ingram de Boynton to John de Folketon,
7 June 1299 {evidently an error in date} [11]
Spouse: NN
Children: Nicholas (->1310)
1.1.2a.2.1.1.1.1.1 Nicholas de Monceaux
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 7 Jun 1310, d.s.p.[11]
witness to demise by Sir Ingram de Boynton, 7 June 1299[11]
1.1.2a.2.1.1.1.2 Thomas de Monceaux
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 18 Jul 1349[9]
of Barmeston, Winkton, Lisset and Hertburn, co. York
succeeded his brother John, or nephew Nicholas at Barmeston
demised to John, his son, and Isabel, his wife, the manor of Lisset,
for their lives, ca 1345[9]
d. before 18 July 1349:
his son John de Monceaux ' paid 116 & 8d for livery of his lands as
appears by a writ from the crown to the Sheriff of Yorkshire,
dated Westerminster 18 July, 22 Edw. III'[9]
Spouse: Eustache[9]
Death: aft 1357[9]
Children: Sir John (->1360)
1.1.2a.2.1.1.1.2.1 Sir John de Monceaux
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 14 Feb 1360[11]
knight, of Barmeston, co. York
'paid 116 & 8d for livery of his lands as appears by a writ from
the crown to the Sheriff of Yorkshire, dated Westerminster 18 July,
22 Edw. III'[9]
' Demise: William de Carlton of Routh and wife Beatrice to Sir
John de Mounceaux, Robert Ward of Ulram and Hugh de Lond
of Boynton: - all property in Boynton which they hold for
the life of Beatrice -: For life of Beatrice. Rendering 40s. yearly.
Witn. Sir Amand de Routh, Sir Robert de Boynton, Thomas de
Carthorp, Walter de Bukton, Robert de Thorp.
Given at Boynton, Sunday in St. Valentine 1360.
Seals (i) a standing figure (in a boat?), right hand raised, 3
(stars?) above (ii) 4 (flowers?) joined in a cross
NOTE Old style date 14 February 1360/1 '[11]
Inquisition p.m. [Calendarium IPM, p. 261]:
' Joh'es Mounceaux miles
Berneston maner' ut de maner' de }
Brustwyk & ut de honore de }
Albermarl' - - - } Ebor' . [13]
Spouse: Isabel[9]
Children: John (-1381)
1.1.2a.2.1.1.1.2.1.1 John Monceaux
----------------------------------------
Death: 1381[9]
Burial: Barmston church, Barmston in Holderness, co. York[9]
'esquire, lord of Barmston' [9]
re: the lands of Boynton, held of the Monceaux lords of Barmeston:
[held in dower by his widow Joan]:
' REFERENCE: DDWB/20/19
DATES: 1 February 1410 - 28 February 1410
DESCRIPTION: Copies, in translation, of Writ and Inquisition into
property as DDWB/20/17, taken at Killom before Nicholas Gower,
escheator in Yorks. by Richard of Spencer, William of Pocthorpe,
Robert of Lowthorpe, Robert Vavissor, Robert Mounceux of Bointon,
Thomas of Water, Robert of Statler, John Warde, Thomas Westby,
William Randolf, William Swaldall and Thomas Smithe of Nafferton:
- - Ingelram Mounceux was seised of 2 messuages, 3 cottages and 16
oxgangs in Bointon (as in DDWB/20/17), temp. Ed. I. He gave them
to his daughter Alice and her husband William de Bointon, and heirs
of their bodies, from whom they passed successively to Ingellram of
Bointon, William (Walter) of Bointon, Thomas of Bointon, Thomas
Bointon and Henry Bointon (all sons and heirs of predocessors). The
latter, Henry Bointon, assigned the premises, with property in
Newton under Onebrough and Snainton to his mother Margaret of
Bointon in dower. On death of H.B. on 20 July 1405, the reversion
lay to his son Thomas Bointon (`being within age and is of the age
of xii years').
The property in Bointon is held of Johan de Mounceux, of her manor
of Bernston by homage, relief and fealty, and rendering
`shiriffgilde and castlegard' (3/4d. for every oxgang).
On death of Margaret, Johanne Monceux was seised by reason of
minority of Thomas Bointon, the son `until she was amoved by
Christofer of Bointon by collor of' Letters Patent (as DDWB/20/18?)
`made at the untrewe suggestion of the said Christopher'. Moiety
of manor of Newton under Onesburghe is held of Sir John Lumley
by knight's service, and the property in Snainton is held of the
Crown, of the honor of Pickering. Henry de Bointon,at his death,
held nothing else in capite of the Crown in Yorks NOTE Old style
date 1 February 1409 - 28 February 1409 .'[11]
Spouse: Joan
Death: bef 23 Dec 1420[9]
Children: John (-<1426)
Alexander (->1420)
Robert (->1420)
1.1.2a.2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1 John Monceaux
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 16 Aug 1426[14]
Burial: Barmston church, Barmston in Holderness, co. York[9]
Occ: lord of Barmeston and Nuncoton[9]
esq., of Barmeston, co. York
re: his wife:
the will of 'Lady Matilda Monceaux' is given in Testamenta
Eboracensia [pp. 83-84[14]]
Spouse: Matilda Manfield
Death: aft 3 Jul 1441[14]
Children: Matilda (->1446)
William (-1446)
1.1.2a.2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1 Matilda Monceaux[15]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1446[9]
heiress of Barmeston[9]
named in will of mother[14] ; heiress of brother, William Monceaux,
Esq. (d.1446)[9]
Spouse: Brian de la See[15] of Hollym, co. Yorks.
Father: Peter de la See
Mother: Margaret Cotes
Children: Sir Martin (->1494)
Margaret
Alicia
Lucy
Matilda
1.1.2a.2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1a Sir Martin de la See*[9]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 20 Nov 1494[16],[14]
Burial: All Hallows', Barmeston, co. Yorks.[9]
knight, of Barmeston, co. York
leader of Yorkshire [Lancastrian] forces during Edward IV's return
at Ravenspur, March 1471[17]
The Account of 'Robert Plumpton and Thomas Bailya' , wardens of Use
Bridge for the year beginning 2nd February 1466 records receipts
from various sources,
in addition to which
' ....the said accountants ask for an allowance for: ..........;
And for decay of a tenement of Martin del Se, knight, charged
above at 7s. 6d. Nil this year for the reason aforesaid
- 7s. 6d.'[18]
Record of a gift, 31 August 1486:
' Edmund Skern of Hoton Crauncewyk to Sir Martin de la See:
- - 3 messuages, a dovecote, 2 crofts and 3 bovates in Banton - - :
Witn. Thomas Ellarker of Moretown, Thomas Gower of
Garton, Walter Rodstan.
Given at Barnston. Seal, armorial, seme de lys (or cruislly), a
bend (charged with 3 ......... between 2 (ravens?)
(as DDWB/5/50 (i)). Endorsed `Boynton' . ' -Hull
University Archive [DDWB/4/25][11]
will dated 20 Nov 1494 [names widow, 'dame Margery', and 'godson
Martyn Boynton' without direct reference to other family members][14]
Entombed in All Saints' Church, Barmeston, East Riding, co. Yorks.:
' On the north side is an alabaster altar tomb, the dado of which
exhibits niches, each alternate one containing the full-length
figure of an angel holding a blank shield. On the slab lies the
recumbent figure of a knight in plate armour his hands joined
as in prayer, his feet resting on a lion (or perhaps a griffin)
and his head on a helmet. He has a conical headpiece, and the
fillet in which the head is bound hears this motto
"Jesu Nazarene." On the body the village vandals of past
generations have carved their initials, some of which are
dated as far back as 1672. The monument bears no inscription
except the motto, but it is generally supposed to be the
memorial of Sir Martin de la See, who died 1494...'[19]
see pedigree of de la See ['att See'] in the Visitation of
Yorkshire[15]; also given in Visitations of the North
(Surtees Soc.)[20]
children are as given by Poulson in his genealogy of the lords
of Barmston[9]
Spouse: Elizabeth Wentworth[15] (2nd wife)
Birth: ? 1450[17]
Death: bef 20 Nov 1494[14]
Father: Sir Philip Wentworth (~1424-1464)
Mother: Mary Clifford (-1478)
Children: Elizabeth (?1470-)
Joan (?1466-<1528)
Martin (-<1494)
John (-<1494)
Other Spouses Margaret Spencer, Margery
1.1.2a.2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1a.1 Elizabeth de la See[9]
----------------------------------------
Birth: ? 1470
'Elizabeth, daughter and coheiress of Sir Martin de la See'
[pedigree of Kelke of Barnetby, Visitation of Lincolnshire][21]
Parentage as shown also per pedigree by herald Dethick
cited by Poulson, vol. I, p. 196[9] (either Gilbert Dethick,
Garter King of Arms, d. 1584 or his son Sir William Dethick,
York Herald and later Garter King of Arms, d. 1612)
cf. HSP 51 (Lincolnshire II) pp. 555-557[15], pedigree of Kelke;
Holmes, The Farrar's Island Family[22]; Paul Reed, FASG [23]
____________________
her husband Roger Kelke was an executor of the will of her
father Sir Martin, will dated 20 Nov 1494 [Testamenta
Eboracensia, Vol. IV, pp. 100-101][14]
Spouse: Roger Kelke[9] of Barnetby le Wold, co. Lincs.
Death: aft 20 Nov 1494[14]
Father: Roger Kelke (->1476)
Mother: Ellen Inglebert
Children: Christopher (-1523) of Barnetby le Wold, co. Lincs.
1.1.2a.2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1a.2 Joan de la See
----------------------------------------
Birth: ? 1466
Death: bef 7 Apr 1528[20]
identified in Visitation of Yorkshire pedigree as coheiress of
her father[15]
date of birth theorized from approx. date of parents' marriage
(shown as ? 1465)
born 'about 1460-65' according to Faris[16]
Spouse: Peter Hildyard
Death: 21 May 1501[20],[24]
Father: Sir Robert Hildyard (-1501)
Mother: Elizabeth Hastings
Marr: ? 1485[16]
Children: Peter
Elizabeth
Katherine
Isabel
Sir Christopher
1.1.2a.2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1a.3 Martin de la See[9]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1494, d.v.p.[9]
1.1.2a.2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1a.4 John de la See[9]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1494, d.v.p.[9]
1.1.2a.2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1b Sir Martin de la See* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Margaret Spencer (1st wife)
Father: Christopher Spencer
Children: Margaret
Other Spouses Elizabeth Wentworth, Margery
1.1.2a.2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1c Sir Martin de la See* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Margery[14] (3rd wife)
Other Spouses Elizabeth Wentworth, Margaret Spencer
1.1.2a.2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.2 William Monceaux
----------------------------------------
Death: 1446, d.s.p.[14],[9]
of Barmeston, co. Yorks.
1.1.2a.2.1.1.1.2.1.1.2 Alexander Monceaux
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1420[14]
Alexander Monceaux ("filium meum"), co-executor of his mother's will,
1420[ 'Testamentum Johannae Mounceux', Surtees, Testa. Eboracensia
IV:398, No. 282[14] ]
1.1.2a.2.1.1.1.2.1.1.3 Robert Monceaux
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1420[14]
'Robert Mounceux of Bointon'[11]
Robert Monceaux ("filium meum"), co-executor of his mother's
will [ 'Testamentum Johannae Mounceux', Surtees, Testa.
Eboracensia IV:398, No. 282[14] ]
1.1.2a.2.1.1.2 James de Monceaux
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1279
of Winkton, co. Yorks.[9]
1.1.2a.2.1.2 Waleran de Monceaux
----------------------------------------
of Herstmonceaux, Sussex
'In 1199 Ingram de Monceaux and William de Werbinton accounted to
have the land of Juliana Doisnel (granddaughter of John fitz Waleran)
as her heirs. In 1205, Waleran de Monceux held (Rot. de Oblat., 10;
Rot. de Finibus, 217, 310).' DD, p.590[6]
1.1.2a.3 NN de Hastings
----------------------------------------
coheiress (in her issue) of Juliana Doisnel[1]
Spouse: NN
Children: William
1.1.2b William de Hastings* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: NN
Children: Robert (-ca1190)
Other Spouses Juliana
1.1.3 Hugh de Hastings
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1152[25]
of Aston Flamville, co. Leics. & c.
he had the manors of Eston [Aston Flamville], Sketchley,
Stapleton & c. as the maritagium of his wife[25]: he
' .. accounted in Leicestershire in 1129/30 to have the land of
the niece ('nepta') of Robert de Flamville.' DD, p. 505[6]
noted in the Pipe Rolls in 1130 as having
'accounted for 90 merks and 2 Destriers, being the whole or the
balance of a Fine which he had given to the King "for having
the land and the niece of Robert de Flamenvil." '
[Eyton, Vol. V, p. 136 citing Rot. Pip. 31 Hen. I, p. 87][5]
Spouse: Erneburga de Flamville
Father: Hugh de Flamville
Marr: ca 1130[5]
Children: William (-<1183) [ancestor of the ELSING family]
Thomas [ancestor of the GISSING family]
1. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Additions and Corrections to Sanders’s Baronies
Prosopon, Number 11 (July 2000),"
www. linacre.ox.ac.uk/research/Prosop
David E. Thornton, editor, Prosopon 11 (July 2000), The Unit for
Prosopographic Research, Linacre College, Oxford, Little Easton
(p. 130), Aveley (p. 2); Brattleby (p. 109) ; North Cadbury (p. 68),
above are emendations to Ian Sander's work, English Baronies (1960).
2. "Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists," Frederick L. Weis,
Genealogical Pub. Co., Baltimore, MD, 7th ed.
3. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 - (Alan Sutton),
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and
the United Kingdom.
4. "William Rufus," Frank Barlow, Univ of California Press (English
Monarchs Series), 1983.
5. "Antiquities of Shropshire," The Rev. R. W. Eyton, London: John
Russell Smith, 1855, Vol. 5 - p. 242 (Ludlow), pp. 132 (Banaster)
and 133-142 (Barony of Hastings), Vol. 6 - pp. 350-359 (Meole Brace
and de Bracy).
6. "Domesday Descendants," K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002.
7. Alan B. Wilson, "Hastings Pedigree," May 9, 1999,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
8. "PIPE ROLL OF 31 HENRY I (1130),"
http://www.constitution.org/sech/sech_025.txt
includes citations from the Pipe Roll 31 Hen I (1129/30),
also from other 'miscellaneous' rolls: e.g. 5 Steph (1139),
re: Hugh d'Auberville.
9. "The History and Antiquities of the Seigniory of Holderness,"
George Poulson, Esq., Hull: Thomas Topping, and W. Pickering, 1840
(Vol I) 1841 (Vol II), pp. 197-198, pedigree of Hilton of Swine.
10. "Early Yorkshire Charters," William Farrer, Hon.D.Litt., Editor,
Ballantyne, Hanson & Co., Edinburgh, 1915-1916, Vol. II (1915)
Vol. III (1916).
11. "Documents about Boyntons in the Hull University Archive,"
http://bob-boynton.hypermart.net/generalinformation/hull02.html
extracted 6 October, 2002, cites document DDWB/4/3, Confirmation
of maritagium of Alice, daughter of Ingram de Monceaux by Agnes,
also DDWB/4/13, dated 7 June 1299, demise from Sir Ingram de
Boynton, witnessed by John de Monceaux and son Nicholas.
12. "Placita Coram Domino Rege apud Westmonasterium de termino Sancte
Trinitatis," "anno regni regis Edwardi, filii regis Henrici,
vicesimo quinto," " [ the pleas of the Court of King's Bench,
Trinity term, 25 Edward I, 1297 ]," London: British Record Society,
1898, .pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com
www.genealogy.com
13. "Calendarium Inquisitionum Post Mortem sive Escaetarum," printed
by Command of His Majesty King George IV, 4 vols., 1806-1828.
14. "Testamenta Eboracensia [Selection of Wills, Reg. at York]," The
Surtees Society, Andrews & Co., Durham (J. B. Nichols & Sons,
London), Vol. IV, Pt. I: 1869, see pp. 100-101 for will of Sir
Martin de la See, pp. 418-419, will of Isabella Salvayn.
15. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William Flower,
Esquire, Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Series, Vol. 16, Mitchell
and Hughes, Printers, London, 1881, pp. 154-156: pedigree of
Hastings of Elsing ('Hastynges..' of Fenwick, co. Yorks.),
'The Visitation of Yorkshire in the Years 1563 and 1564'.
16. "Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists," David
Faris, Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society, 1999,
(2nd edition, 1999).
17. "Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists," David Faris,
Baltimore: the Genealogical Pub. Company, 1st ed.
18. "Historical Sources for York Archaeology after AD 1000,"
http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/bridgemasters/ouse5.pdf
extracted 23 October, 2002, Account of Robert Plumpton and
Thomas Bailya wardens of Use Bridge, in the time of John Kent,
mayor of the City of York, for all receipts, farms and rents of
the said city appertaining to the said bridge, And for all
repayments, outlays and expenses from the feast of the
Purification of theBlessed Virgin, Mary in the fifth year of
the reign of King Edward the fourth until the same feast,
....in the following year, that is for one whole year.
[this account covers the year beginning 2nd February 1466].
19. GENUKI, "A History of Yorkshire, from Bulmer's Gazetteer, 1892,"
www.genuki.org.uk/ extracted May 27, 2002, for Grosmont
Priory: www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/NRY/
for Barmeston:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/ERY/Barmston/Barmston92.html
20. "Visitations of the North, Part III," Publications of the Surtees
Society,Vol. CXLIV, Northumberland Press Ltd., Newcastle, 1930,
78 et seq.
21. "The Visitation of Lincolnshire," Harleian Society, Harleian Series,
Vols. 50-52 (Lincolnshire, Vols. I-III), II:555-557,
Kelke of Barnetby.
22. "The Farrar's Island Family and its English Ancestry," Alvahn
Holmes, Gateway Press, Inc. Baltimore, MD, 1972, reprinted 1986,
cites Rev. C. V. Collier, 'Documents at "Burton Agnes" ', East
Riding Society, vols. 18-19 (1911-1912), providing abstracts of
6 deeds relating to Kelke and identifying members of the Kelke family.
23. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Gateway Ancestor William Farrar," Jan. 18,
2000, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
re: will of Sir Martin de la See, 1494 (Testamenta Eboracensia).
24. Peter Freeman, University of Leeds, "Re: Holme/Hildyard," June
8, 2001, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com ( paper copy: library of
John Ravilious, cites Calendar of Inquisitions Henry VII, Vol.
II, pp. 419-423, Inquisition Post Mortem of Peter Hilliard, Esq,
held on 10 February, 18 Hen. VII (1502).
25. Kay Allen, AG, "Hastings Pedigree," Aug 24, 1998,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
* John P. Ravilious
______________________________________
reed...@aol.com (Reedpcgen) wrote in message news:<20031125175706...@mb-m14.aol.com>...