Losonczi family of Transilvania
M.Sjostrom
The family called Losonczi, held occasionally the
great governorship (vajd, princedom) of Transilvania
in 1400s and 1500s, in between several other families.
It seems to me that one of their ancestral castles,
possibly even their seat in some periods, was castle
of Cetatea Ciceu.
This leads me to presume that the family was from that
region (northern Transilvania), region near Harghita,
which appears to have mostly been populated by Szekler
people, that of make-believe Hun origin, but anyway of
a Magyar flavor.
There seems to be some genealogical features of the
Losonczi given in the text:
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetatea_Ciceu%2C_Bistri%C5%A3a-N%C4%83s%C4%83ud
(which possibly is more or less direct text from some
publication that treated Romanian medieval castles).
What would be Losonczi or Losoncz, if a place name, in
Romanian language?
I am curious whether the later family "Csomortany de
Losoncz" and family "Banffy de Losoncz" descend from
these late medieval Losonczi.
And, of course, I would be interested in seeing fuller
genealogy of the Losonczi, and if someone finds some
points to correct or to augment, in the referred
material and my speculations.
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Renia
>
> What would be Losonczi or Losoncz, if a place name, in
> Romanian language?
It sounds Polish. The Hungarian language is nearer to Finnish.
Leticia Cluff
wrote:
>
>The family called Losonczi, held occasionally the
>great governorship (vajd, princedom) of Transilvania
>in 1400s and 1500s, in between several other families.
>It seems to me that one of their ancestral castles,
>possibly even their seat in some periods, was castle
>of Cetatea Ciceu.
>This leads me to presume that the family was from that
>region (northern Transilvania), region near Harghita,
>which appears to have mostly been populated by Szekler
>people, that of make-believe Hun origin, but anyway of
>a Magyar flavor.
>
>There seems to be some genealogical features of the
>Losonczi given in the text:
>http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetatea_Ciceu%2C_Bistri%C5%A3a-N%C4%83s%C4%83ud
>(which possibly is more or less direct text from some
>publication that treated Romanian medieval castles).
>
>What would be Losonczi or Losoncz, if a place name, in
>Romanian language?
The Romanian Wikipedia does not seem to know of a Romanian name, but
it gives the Slovak, German and Hungarian forms of this town, now in
Slovakia:
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu%C4%8Denec
At the town's website
http://www.lucenec.sk/?id_menu=21965&firmy_slovenska_flag=0
there is a list of spellings recorded in the past:
Losunc (1262), Lusunch (1271, 1277, 1280, 1299, 1335, 1385, 1696),
Losunch (1275, 1386), Lochonch (1302, 1373, 1405, 1437), Luchunoch
(1326, 1369), Lucens (1332), Luchonch (1336, 1395, 1373, 1405),
Lochanch (1338), Lochunch (1340), Luchnunch (1342), Lwchwnch (1352),
Losonch (1357, 1373, 1387), Lochonuch (1361), Luchench (1367),
Lochnich (1376), Lochuch (1380), Lossoncz (1383, 1674, 1710), Lossunch
(1387), Lochon (1393), Lwnoch (1405), Lossonch (1405), Losancz (1427),
Loshunch (1440), Losonc (1440), Losoncz (1451, 1502, 1671, 1850, 1869,
1880), Lossoncz (1451, 1467, 1596), Losontz (1528, 1742), Lucz^enecz
(1773), Luc^enec (1786), Lucsenecz (1837)
In Latin texts it was called Lossonczium and Lossontzinum.
>
>I am curious whether the later family "Csomortany de
>Losoncz" and family "Banffy de Losoncz" descend from
>these late medieval Losonczi.
>
>And, of course, I would be interested in seeing fuller
>genealogy of the Losonczi, and if someone finds some
>points to correct or to augment, in the referred
>material and my speculations.
At the bottom of the latter link above there is a short paragraph
about the (Banffy de) Losoncz family, but I'm afraid I can't translate
it for you. Are there any Slavicists here?
Tish
M.Sjostrom
--- Lucenec in Slovak.
At least that part is now solved to a presumably to a
satisfactory level of erudition:
Losoncz appears actually a Magyarization of a Slovak
place. Slovak is a west-slavic language, very close
with Czech, and not so far from Polish.
Thus, Losoncz as word does not need to mean anything
in Hungarian, it suffices that Lucenec means something
meaningful in slavic.
If a variety of families were "de Losoncz" (Slovak
version would probably be: ze Lucenec), it may as well
signify that they were "from" that place and built
their prominence elsewhere.
Transilvania and (eastern) Slovakia had long-term ties
in Middle Ages and early modern period. I would not be
at all surprised if the medieval Losonczi family came
from Lucenec, Slovakia, and rose to prominence in
northern Transilvania (?acquired a castle there...)
As to Magyar being close to Finnish, that is really
just a misconception. Most Hungarian names and words
are such that a Finn would not see or hear anything
familiar in them.
People should not confuse kinship of basic forms of
language, common only several thousands years earlier,
with familiar features of vocabulary (vocabulary and
renditions mutate fairly rapidly).
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Renia
I have a good friend who is Hungarian. It was she who told me Hungarian
and Finnish are close languages.
Losonczi looks more Polish than Czek. They are similar-sounding
languages, but read differently.
M.Sjostrom
Finnish and Magyar are scientifically proven related
languages, yes.
(Without the research in 1700s and 1800s, we would not
know that. A Finn and a Magyar in 1600s would have
been amazed if someone had mentioned them as
linguistical relatives.)
So are English and Sanskrit, kin with each other.
I would compare those two kinships;
- not the close relationship between Finnish and
Estonian, or the close relationship between Magyar and
some Szekler dialect in Transilvania.
The paths of Finnish and Magyar separated some three
or four thousand years ago, or so.
The linguistical kinship is present in some remnants
of basic structures, those ways to agglutate phonemes
to end of words to make declensions and tenses and
such; and that some hundreds of very old words (usual
in hunter-gatherer society) have a recognizable common
root between them in both languages, although even
their pronunciation may have gone to divergent paths.
I would say that even way of putting pronunciation
weight to phonemes within words, and melody of speech,
have gone in many cases a different path. One does not
generally sound like a relative of a Finn if speaking
Magyar, and contrariwise neither too.
If in future some idealist, or ideologist, comes and
makes sermon how close Hungarian and Finnish are, it
would be well to recall that the closeness is roughly
comparable with the closeness between Sanskrit and
English.
Matthew Hovius
question, but rather Hungarian ones. Transylvania was culturally and
ethnically in the sphere of the Kingdom of Hungary, until it was
overrun by the Turks in 1526. For a time, Transylvania was the largest
surviving 'free' area occupied by Hungarian peoples.
Searching Google for 'Losonczy Csalad' (Losonczy Family) seems to
yield a lot of results in Hungarian corresponding to this family and
the related ones you mention. 'Losonczi Csalad' should also be tried.
A family of the rank indicated should in theory have their surname
ending in Y to indicate nobility, but this convention (like all) was
never perfectly observed.
I hope this helps locate some relevant material in Hungarian.
M.Sjostrom
"Losonczi looks more Polish than Czek. They are
similar-sounding languages, but read differently. "
Above, would be available a satisfactory explication
how and why the Slavic version of the name were
Lucenek and close that rendition.
It is Lucenek in Slovak. Czech is close with Slovak.
Czech version would be close to Lucenek, and different
from Losoncz.
Also Polish version, if existed, would presumably be
closer to that Lucenek, than Losoncz. After all, it
seems to be well-established that Losoncz is Magyar
rendition of the name.
Hopefully no one goes to suggest that Polish is
linguistically related with Magyar language, and
closer than with, for example, Czech is with Polish.
(Such proposition would certainly be news to
researchers of languages and linguistics....)
As the linguistical relations of Polish are known, it
would be more expected to compare how Polish-like
Lucenek would sound - rather than try sounding
Losoncz.
Losoncz, being the Magyar rendition of the name, would
ONLY rather sound like Polish, or close to Polish,
presumably by HAPPENSTANCE, rather than Polish being
influence, or origin, on how that Magyar rendition of
the name came into being.
It is fairly difficult to see, how Polish -as opposed
to Czech-Slovak and Magyar- would have something
important to do with origin of that name, Losoncz, or
with origin of those families.
Of course, I would be happy, were some to present
reliable evidence about such Polish influence or even
origin... and, evidence, if Polish ethnicity somehow
happened to be background of any of those specific
families. Absent such, Slovak and Magyar would be much
more credible.
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Renia
I do not say that Hungarian/Magyar is a cousin language of Polish.
Polish is a Slavonic language with the same root as Czek, Bulgarian,
etc. My father was Polish and he could speak to a Czek in his own
language, and each would understand the other. But the spellings of the
two languages look different to me.
The "word" Losonczi looks a little like Polish. I am not saying the
family is Polish, but the word looks Polish. I don't know anything about
Hungarian/Magyar, so I don't know if it looks Hungarian (or Czek).
Leticia Cluff
wrote:
>
>"Losonczi looks more Polish than Czek. They are
>similar-sounding languages, but read differently. "
Isn't it great that the different language versions of Wikipedia are
linked to each other? The Polish name of the town can be seen here:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu%C4%8Denec
The family name is certainly Hungarian, based as it is on the
Hungarian name of the town. And although the town is now in Slovakia,
it is less than 15 km from the Hungarian border and was formerly in
Hungary, so there's no doubt that Hungarians have been one of the
ethnic elements there.
There's even a Hungarian etymology for the place, the word "ló-sánc"
meaning moat:
http://travel.spectator.sk/ss2006/03_lucenec.html
But a Slavic etymology has also been suggested, from "lúka, lúc^ina"
meaning meadow:
http://www.lucenec.sk/?id_menu=21965&firmy_slovenska_flag=0
I presume that Hungarian scholars suggest a Hungarian origin and
Slovak scholars a Slovak origin. I remain ignorant and neutral.
Likewise, I can't evaluate the following website showing the
descendants of the first palatine to title himself Losoncz:
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/hung/losoncz.html
Tish
Rare
of those countries? I've never been able to find anything relating to
that name with that spelling. Kudlak and Kudlac seem to be found in
Poland, Hungary, and Slovakia, but the name Cudlack just doesn't seem
to exist. Uncommon misspelling of the other two in America or
completely unrelated?
email...@gmail.com
Desewde Losoncz was an erdélyi vajda(transylvanian vajda) in 1437.
Transylvania was belong to Hungary.
Even Losoncz(today Sk) was a hungarian place too.
