EXTENDED PEDIGREE OF COUNTS OF BOULOGNE-SUR-MER

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Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

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Jun 22, 2005, 8:13:25 PM6/22/05
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Dear Newsgroup ~

For interest's sake, I've posted below an extended pedigree of the
Counts of Boulogne-sur-Mer. The pedigree commences with Eustache I,
Count of Boulogne, who died circa 1049. Most lines are traced out to
the fifth or sixth generations. Several Magna Carta barons are
connected to the Boulogne family, namely William d'Aubeney, Henry de
Bohun, William de Huntingfield, and Saher de Quincy. For a history of
the Magna Carta barons and their descendants, please see my new book,
Magna Carta Ancestry.

If anyone has any corrections or additions to the pedigree below, I'd
appreciate it they would post them on the newsgroup for further
discussion.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net

EXTENDED PEDIGREE OF COUNTS OF BOULOGNE-SUR-MER

Eustache I, Count of Boulogne, +ca 1049, son and heir of Baldwin, Count
of Boulogne, by Ada de Gant; m. Maud (or Mahaut) of Louvain
.A1. Eustache II, Count of Boulogne, +about 1093; m. (1) before 1049
Goda of England, widow of Dreux, Count of Vexin; m. (2) 1057 [Saint]
Ida of Lorraine (+13 Aug. 1113)
..B1. (by 2) Eustache III, Count of Boulogne and Lens, went on the
First Crusade, +after 1125; m. 1101/02 Mary of Scotland (+1116)
...C1. Maud of Boulogne, Countess of Boulogne, Queen of England, +30
May 1151; m. 1125 Stephen of Blois, King of England (+25 Oct. 1154)
....D1. Eustache of England, Count of Boulogne, +16 Aug. 1153, bur.
Faversham, m. Feb. 1140 Constance of France (+16 Aug. 1176)
....D2. William of England, Count of Boulogne and Mortain, 4th Earl of
Surrey, + Toulouse expedition Oct. 1159, m. before 1153 Isabel de
Warenne (+possibly 12 July 1199)
....D3. Baldwin of England, +young, bur. Holy Trinity, London
....D4. Mary of England, Abbess of Romsey, Countess of Boulogne, *about
1136, +at St. Austreberthe Abbey at Montreuil-sur-Mer 1182, m. 1160 (as
his 1st wife) Mathieu of Flanders, Count of Boulogne (+25 July 1173)
.....E1. Ida of Boulogne, Countess of Boulogne, +1216, m. (1) Mathieu
_____; m. (2) 1180 Gerhard III, Count of Guelders (+1182); m. (3) 1183
Berthold IV, Duke of Zähringen (+8 Dec. 1186); m. (4) 1190 Renaud,
Count of Dammartin
.....E2. Mahaud (or Machtild) of Boulogne, +1210/1, m. 1179 or 1180
Henri I, Duke of Brabant and Lorraine (+5 Sept. 1235)
....D5. Maud of England, +young, bur. Holy Trinity, London
...C2. Godfrey of Boulogne [illegitimate] (styled "nephew" [nepos]
of King Baldwin I of Jerusalem), +killed at Battle of Sinnabrah 1113
...C3. Ralph of Boulogne [illegitimate], +after 1120/5
...C4. Eustache of Boulogne [illegitimate], +after 1120/5
..B2. (by 2) Godfrey of Bouillon, Duke of Lower Lorraine, leader of the
First Crusade, took the title Defender of the Holy Sepulchre
(1099-1100), *about 1060, +Palestine 1100, buried Jerusalem
..B3. (by 2) Baldwin, Count of Edessa (1098-1100), King of Jerusalem
(1100-1118), +Al-Arish III.1118, m. (1) before 1096 Godehild de Tosny
(+Germanicea, Cilicia, 1097), divorced wife of Robert I de Beaumont,
Count of Meulan, 1st Earl of Leicester; m. (2) 1098/1100 (later
repudiated) Arda, an Armenian princess (+Constantinople after 1117); m.
(3) 1113 (repudiated 1117) Adelaide/Adelasie/Adelaite of Savona
(+1118), widow of Roger I, Count of Sicily
..B4. (illegitimate) Geoffrey of Boulogne, of Carshalton, Surrey,
+after 1086, m. before 1084 Beatrice de Mandeville
...C1. William de Boulogne, of Carshalton, Surrey, living 1106, +before
1130, m. (1) _____; m. (2) _____
....D1. (by 1) Faramus of Boulogne (or Tingry), of Carshalton, Surrey,
Martock, Somerset, etc., seigneur of Tingry (Pas de Calais), +1183/4;
m. Maud _____
.....E1. William of Boulogne, +before 1184
......E2. Sibyl of Boulogne (or Tingry), +1212/14, m. (1) Enguerrand de
Fiennes, seigneur of Fiennes (Pas de Calais) (+killed at Acre 1189); m.
(2) Robert de Caieu (or Cayeu) (+after 1197)
......F1. William de Fiennes, of Fiennes and Tingry (Pas-de-Calais),
+1244, m. before 4 Jan. 1203/4 Agnès de Dammartin (+after 1244)
....D2. Eustace of Boulogne, +after 1130
....D3. Simon of Boulogne, +after 1130
....D4. Rohese of Boulogne, +before 1151, bur. Holy Trinity, London, m.
Richard de Lucy, of Chipping Ongar, Essex, Chief Justiciar of England
(+14 July 1179)
.A2. Godfrey of Boulogne, Bishop of Paris, Arch-Chancellor of France,
+1095
.A3. Lambert, Count of Lens, +killed Phalempin 1054; m. 1053/54 Alice
(Aelidis, Adeliza) of Normandy (*ca 1030, +1081/84), widow of
Enguerrand II, Count of Ponthieu
..B1. Judith of Lens, *1054, +after 1086; m. 1070 Waltheof, Earl of
Northumberland, Huntingdon, and Northampton (+beheaded 31 May 1076,
bur. Crowland)
...C1. Maud of Northumberland, + 1130/1, m. (1) Simon de Senlis I, Earl
of Huntingdon and Northampton (+La Charité about 1111); m. (2) 1113
David I, King of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon (+Carlisle 24 May 1153)
....D1. (by 1) Simon de Senlis II, Earl of Huntingdon, +Aug.1153, bur.
St. Andrew's, m. Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Beaumont (+after 1187)
.....E1. Simon de Senlis III, Earl of Northampton, +1184, m. Alice de
Gant
.....E2. Isabel de Senlis, m. William Mauduit III, chamberlain of Kings
Henry II and Richard I (+about 1194/5)
.....E3. (illegitimate) Simon de Senlis
....D2. (by 1) [Saint] Waltheof, monk at Wardon Abbey, afterwards Abbot
of Melrose, +3 Aug 1159
....D3. (by 1) Maud de Senlis, +after 1158/63, m. (1) Robert Fitz
Richard, of Little Dunmow, Essex (+1137); m. (2) Saher de Quincy I, of
Long Buckby, Northamptonshire (+1190) [Saher de Quincy I m. (2)
Asceline Peverel, widow of Geoffrey de Waterville]
.....E1. (by 1) Walter Fitz Robert, of Little Dunmow, Essex, *before
1136, +1198, m. (1) before 1161 Maud de Lucy (+after c. 1175); m. (2)
Maud de Bohun, widow of Henry d'Oilly (she +after 1201)
.....E2. (by 1) Maud de Senlis, +after 1185, m. (1) William d'Aubeney;
m. (2) Richard de Luvetot, of Sheffield, Yorkshire (+1171)
......F1. (by 1) William d'Aubeney, of Belvoir, Leicestershire, Magna
Carta Surety,*after 1146, +1236, m. (1) Margery (or Margaret) de
Umfreville; m. (2) about 29 Sept. 1198 Agatha Trussebut, widow of Hamo
Fitz Hamo (she +1247)
......F2. (by 1) Maud d'Aubeney (+after 1210), m. Gilbert, Earl of
Strathearn (+1233)
.....E3. (by 2) Saher de Quincy II, *before 1152 (of age in or before
c. 1173), +1184/90, m. _____
......F1. Saher de Quincy III, of Long Buckby, Northamptonshire,
+1190/92, s.p.
.....E4. (by 2) Robert de Quincy I, +about 1207-8, m. (1) Orabel Fitz
Ness (divorced); m. (2) Eve Fitz Uchtred of Galloway
......F1. (by 1) Saher de Quincy III, 1st Earl of Winchester, Magna
Carta Surety, +1219, m. Margaret de Beaumont (+1236)
.......G1. Robert de Quincy II, of Long Buckby, Northamptonshire,
Grantchester, Cambridgeshire, Hardwick, Huntingdonshire, and Bradenham,
Norfolk, +London 1217, m. probably after 1207 Hawise of Chester,
Countess of Lincoln (+1243)
.......G2. Roger de Quincy, 2nd Earl of Winchester, +25 Apr. 1264, m.
(1) Ellen of Galloway (+after 21 Nov. 1245); m. (2) before 6 June 1250
Maud de Bohun, widow of Anselm Marshal (she + 20 Oct. 1252); m. (3)
before 5 Dec. 1252 Eleanor de Ferrers, widow of William de Vaux (she
+1274)
.......G3. Reynold de Quincy, +after 1213
.......G4. Robert de Quincy III, of Colne Quincy, Essex, +Aug. 1257, m.
before 5 Dec. 1237 Ellen of Wales, widow of John of Scotland, Earl of
Chester and Huntingdon (she +1253)
.......G5. John de Quincy, +young
.......G6. Lorette de Quincy, m. William de Valoines, of Panmure,
Forfarshire, Scotland, Chamberlain of Scotland (+Kelso 1219)
.......G7. Orabel de Quincy, m. before 1219 Richard de Harcourt, of
Stanton Harcourt, Oxfordshire (+1258)
.......G8. Hawise de Quincy, +3 Feb. (year unknown), m. about Feb.
1222/3 Hugh de Vere, 4th Earl of Oxford (+before 23 Dec. 1263)
......F2. (by 1) _____ de Quincy, m. _____ de Saint Andrew
.......G1. Saher de Saint Andrew, of East Haddon, Northamptonshire, and
Gotham, Nottinghamshire, +1253/60, m. Maud de Dive
.......G2. Roger de Saint Andrew, of Littlemore, Oxfordshire, +1230/49
.....E5. (by 2) Alice de Senlis, +after 1198¬1204, m. Roger (Fitz
William) de Huntingfield, of Huntingfield and Mendham, Suffolk (+1204)
.......G1. William de Huntingfield, of Huntingfield and Mendham,
Suffolk, Magna Carta Surety, +1220/1, m. Isabel Fitz William (or de
Gressenhall), widow of Berenger de Cressy and Osmund de Stuteville
....D4. (by 2) Malcolm of Scotland, +young
....D5. (by 2) Clarice of Scotland, +young
....D6. (by 2) Hodierne of Scotland, +young
....D7. (by 2) Henry of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon and
Northumberland, *about 1114, +12 June 1152, m. 1139 Ada de Warenne
(+1178)
.....E1. Malcolm IV, King of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon, *20 Mar.
1141/2, +Jedburgh 9 Dec. 1165 unmarried
.....E2. William the Lion, King of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon, *1143,
+Stirling 4 Dec. 1214, m. Woodstock 5 Sept. 1186 Ermengarde de Beaumont
(+11 Feb. 1233/4)
.....E3. David of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon, *about 1144, +Yardley,
Northamptonshire 17 June 1219, m. 26 Aug. 1190 Maud of Chester (+ about
6 Jan. 1233)
.....E4. Ada of Scotland, m. 1162 Florent III, Count of Holland
.....E5. Margaret (or Margery) of Scotland, *abut 1145, +1201, m. (1)
1160 Conan IV, Duke of Brittany, Earl of Richmond (+20 Feb. 1171); m.
(2) before Easter 1175 Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford (+c.1181)
......F1. (by 1) Constance, Duchess of Brittany, +4 or 5 Sept. 1201, m.
Geoffrey of England, Duke of Brittany (+Paris 19 Aug. 1186); m. (2)
Ranulf, Earl of Chester; m. (3) Guy de Thouars
......F2. (by 2) Henry de Bohun, 5th Earl of Hereford, Magna Carta
Surety, +1 June 1220, m. Maud de Mandeville, Countess of Essex (+27
Aug. 1236)
.......G1. Humphrey de Bohun, 6th Earl of Hereford, +24 Sept. 1275, m.
(1) Maud of Eu (+14 Aug. 1241); m. (2) Maud of Avenbury (+8 Oct. 1273)
.......G2. William de Bohun
.......G3. Henry de Bohun
.......G4. Grace de Bohun, m. Robert de Dunstanville
.....E6. Maud of Scotland, +young
...C2. Alice of Northumberland, +after 1126, m. Ralph IV de Tony, of
Flamstead, Hertfordshire (+about 1126)
....D1. Roger III de Tony, of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, m. before 1135
Ida of Hainault
.....E1. Ralph III de Tony, of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, m. Margaret de
Beaumont
.....E2. Geoffrey de Tony
.....E3. Baldwin de Tony
.....E4. Roger de Tony, of Holkham, Norfolk, +before 1185, m. Ada de
Chaumont (*about 1155, +after 1185)
.....E5. Godehild de Tony, +before 1186, m. William de Mohun, of
Dunster, Somerset (+1176)
....D2. Hugh de Tony, +young, bur. Holy Trinity, London
....D3. Simon de Tony
....D4. Godehild (or Godeheld) de Tony, +after 1143, m. before 1139
Robert de Newburgh
.....E1. Henry de Newburgh, +after 1178
......F1. Robert de Newburgh, +after 1190
.....E2. Ralph de Newburgh
.....E3. Robert de Newburgh (clerk)
....D5. Isabel de Tony, m. Walter Fitz Richard (+1138)
.A4. Gerberge of Boulogne, married Friedrich II, Duke of Lower Lorraine
(+1065)
..B1. Jutta of Luxembourg, married Walram II, Count of Arlon
...C1. Heinrich I, Count of Limburg, Duke of Lower Lorraine, +1119, m.
Adelheid of Pottenstein
....D1. Walram III, Count of Limburg, Duke of Lower Lorraine, +1139, m.
Jutta of Geldern-Wassenberg
.....E1. Heinrich II, Duke of Limburg, Margrave of Arlon, +1167, m. (1)
Mathilde of Saffenberg (+1145); (2) Laurette of Lorraine-Flanders
.....E2. Walram IV, Margrave of Arlon (+after 1145)
.....E3. Gerhard I, of Wassenberg (+after 1166)
.....E4. Agnes of Limburg, m. Walram of Veckenstedt (+1126)
.....E5. Beatrix of Limburg, m. Ruprecht I, Count of Nassau (+after
1152)
.....E6. NN of Limburg (daughter), m. Ekbert, Count of Tecklenburg
(+1146/50)
....D2. Agnes of Limburg, m. Friedrich IV, Pfalzgraf von Sachsen
(+1125)
.....E1. Heinrich of Putelendorf, Pfalzgraf von Sachsen (+1126)
.....E2. Friedrich, Count of Putelendorf, Pfalzgraf von Sachsen
(+1179), m. Gisela of Schwatrzburg
.....E3. Bertha of Putelendorf, m. Berthold I, Count of Henneberg,
Burgrave of Würzburg (+1157)
....D3. Adelheid of Limburg, +1143, m. (1) Friedrich I, Count of Werl
(+1124); m. (2) Kuno II, Count of Horburg-Lechshemünd (+1139); m. (3)
Konrad II, Count of Dachau, Duke of Meranien-Dalmatien (+1159)
.....E1. (by 1) Jutta (or Ida) of Werl, m. (1) Gottfried II, Count of
Cappenberg (+1127); m. (2) Gottfried of Cuyck, Count of Arnsberg
(+after 1168)
....D4. Mathilde of Limburg, m. Henri I, Count of La Roche (+before
1138)
.....E1. Geoffroi, Count of La Roche (+before 28 Feb. 1143)
.....E2. Henri II, Count of La Roche (+before 10 Jan. 1153)
.....E3. Thierry de La Roche, Archbbishop of Tyre (+1174)
.....E4. Mathilde de La Roche, m. (1) Thierry I, of Walcourt (+after
1147); m. (2) before 1150 Nicholas d'Oisy, of Avesnes (+ 1168/71)
.....E5. Beatrix de La Roche, m. Gerard of Brunesheim, of Breda
(+before 1152)

Unidentified Boulogne kinsfolk:

Geoffrey, Bishop of Chartres, 1076-1098 (removed for simony) [styled
"nepos" [i.e., kinsman or nephew] to Count Eustache II of Boulogne and
Godfrey Bishop of Paris]. [Note: Bishop Geoffrey had a kinsman named
Guillaume ("Willelmi, nepotis episcopi") who witnessed one of his
charters in 1084 - see M. Guérard Collection des Cartulaires de
France 1: Cartulaire de l'Abbaye de Saint-Père de Chartres (1840):
244-245].

Stewart Baldwin

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Jun 22, 2005, 9:00:35 PM6/22/05
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On 22 Jun 2005 17:13:25 -0700, "Douglas Richardson
royala...@msn.com" <royala...@msn.com> wrote:

>EXTENDED PEDIGREE OF COUNTS OF BOULOGNE-SUR-MER
>
>Eustache I, Count of Boulogne, +ca 1049, son and heir of Baldwin, Count
>of Boulogne, by Ada de Gant;

[snip]

As discussed in this newsgroup in some detail last September, the
earliest known source making Eustace I the son of a count Baldwin and
Ada de Gant is a couple of hundred years after the fact, and has
suspicious features. In the absence of additional evidence, the
parentage of Eustace I would be better stated as "unknown". In fact,
I have not yet seen any solid evidence that the above count Baldwin of
Boulogne even existed.

Stewart Baldwin

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

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Jun 22, 2005, 9:59:08 PM6/22/05
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Dear Newsgroup ~

Dr. Heather Tanner's recent book, Families, Friends and Allies -
Boulogne and Politics in Northern France and England, c. 879-1160
(Brill, Leiden & Boston, 2004), states the following in footnote 39 on
page 79:

"Although Rigaux thinks that Eustache I was the brother of Arnulf II of
Ternois, his death in 1047 strongly suggests that he was Baldwin's son,
not brother. Rigaux's genealogy does not include Baldwin of Boulogne,
which overlooks the evidence of the 988 charter for St. Peter's Gent
issued by Baldwin IV."

As we can see, Dr. Tanner accepts Count Baldwin as the father of Count
Eustache I of Boulogne. As she is the current authority on the Counts
of Boulogne, I see no reason to doubt her conclusions.

Stewart Baldwin

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Jun 22, 2005, 11:24:46 PM6/22/05
to
>Dr. Heather Tanner's recent book, Families, Friends and Allies -
>Boulogne and Politics in Northern France and England, c. 879-1160
>(Brill, Leiden & Boston, 2004), states the following in footnote 39 on
>page 79:
>
>"Although Rigaux thinks that Eustache I was the brother of Arnulf II of
>Ternois, his death in 1047 strongly suggests that he was Baldwin's son,
>not brother. Rigaux's genealogy does not include Baldwin of Boulogne,
>which overlooks the evidence of the 988 charter for St. Peter's Gent
>issued by Baldwin IV."
>
>As we can see, Dr. Tanner accepts Count Baldwin as the father of Count
>Eustache I of Boulogne. As she is the current authority on the Counts
>of Boulogne, I see no reason to doubt her conclusions.

The reasons for doubting her conclusions were stated in detail in the
postings on the subject last September. The above quote is an example
of the flimsiness of the documentation for many of the claims
appearing in this book. Note that the only pieces of evidence offered
were another secondary source and a charter which might not even be
relevant (since the count Baldwin witnessing his namesake's charter
was not identified as a count of Boulogne in the charter). I suggest
that you read the detailed discussions on the early (pre Eustace I)
counts of Boulogne which appeared in the newsgroup last September.
(There were several different subject lines, but I think that using
"Boulogne" as the search term in the archives for 2004 should lead you
to these postings without too many false hits.

Stewart Baldwin

Peter Stewart

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Jun 22, 2005, 11:53:16 PM6/22/05
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<royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1119491948....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Dr. Heather Tanner's recent book, Families, Friends and Allies -
> Boulogne and Politics in Northern France and England, c. 879-1160
> (Brill, Leiden & Boston, 2004), states the following in footnote 39 on
> page 79:
>
> "Although Rigaux thinks that Eustache I was the brother of Arnulf II of
> Ternois, his death in 1047 strongly suggests that he was Baldwin's son,
> not brother. Rigaux's genealogy does not include Baldwin of Boulogne,
> which overlooks the evidence of the 988 charter for St. Peter's Gent
> issued by Baldwin IV."
>
> As we can see, Dr. Tanner accepts Count Baldwin as the father of Count
> Eustache I of Boulogne. As she is the current authority on the Counts
> of Boulogne, I see no reason to doubt her conclusions.

The 988 charter in question was issued by Count Balduin and his mother Quuen
Susanna ("ego Balduinus marchysus cum matre mea Susanna regina"). This is
the famous document where she first occurs with that name, and more
mysteriously with that title, still existing in the original and dated
before she had married King Robert II.

It was clearly issued in the wake of her first husband Count Arnulf II's
death, probably immediately after his obsequies for which the neighbouring
counts and important nobles had gathered in Ghent. The only evidence
relating to a Count Balduin, apart from the principal who was still a child,
is the subscription "Signum Balduini comitis". Pace Heather Tanner, this is
not definite evidence for a Count Balduin of Boulogne.

Peter Stewart


Peter Stewart

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Jun 22, 2005, 11:57:54 PM6/22/05
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<royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1119485605.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

<snip>

> EXTENDED PEDIGREE OF COUNTS OF BOULOGNE-SUR-MER
>
> Eustache I, Count of Boulogne, +ca 1049, son and heir of Baldwin, Count
> of Boulogne, by Ada de Gant; m. Maud (or Mahaut) of Louvain
> .A1. Eustache II, Count of Boulogne, +about 1093; m. (1) before 1049
> Goda of England, widow of Dreux, Count of Vexin; m. (2) 1057 [Saint]
> Ida of Lorraine (+13 Aug. 1113)

I haven't read any further, since the pedigree is scarcely of interest
without any sources cited and evidently no original research behind it.

Predictably, you didn't get far without an error: Ida died on 13 April, not
August - I gave a reference just a few days ago to the relevant volume of
'Acta sanctorum...'.

Peter Stewart


D. Spencer Hines

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Jun 23, 2005, 1:33:16 AM6/23/05
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Where do you get these references and pedigrees?

Are you in a Library?

They have 'Acta sanctorum'?

DSH

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:6rque.1182$oJ...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

Peter Stewart

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Jun 23, 2005, 1:53:04 AM6/23/05
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Spencer Hines wrote:

> Where do you get these references and pedigrees?

>From research - anything published can be located & obtained by anyone
who is conscientious & diligent enough: Kelley and Richardson, amongst
others, are not.

> Are you in a Library?

At home. Due to acquisitive habits that would put an average bower-bird
to shame, I have a vast lot of material at hand. Unfortunately not much
of my library is gaudy enough to attract the higher interest that
bower-birds strive for, so I am reduced to using the books merely for
reading.

> They have 'Acta sanctorum'?

Gallica has most of the volumes online, but not Aprilis vol. II - I
have a copy of 'Vita beatae Idae' (13th April) from this, made years
ago. The local state library in Melbourne has a full set, 58 volumes
from memory, as would many good reference libraries in the USA.

If you want a copy & can't find 'Acta sanctorum' locally, Ida's 'Vita'
was reprinted in 'Patrologia latina' vol. 155 with other documents
relating to Godfrey de Bouillon.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

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Jun 23, 2005, 2:58:55 AM6/23/05
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Thanks.

It does sound as if you have a very interesting collection of books at
home -- as you quickly come up with an amazing series of discrete
references to what must be quite obscure books -- in many venues --
although not so in Genealogy.

It also sounds as if this Melbourne Library is a pretty darn good one.

The Central Library there, I take it.

DSH

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:1119505984.5...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

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Jun 23, 2005, 4:26:57 AM6/23/05
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Peter Stewart wrote:
> <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:1119485605.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> I haven't read any further, since the pedigree is scarcely of interest
> without any sources cited and evidently no original research behind it.
>
> Predictably, you didn't get far without an error: Ida died on 13 April, not
> August - I gave a reference just a few days ago to the relevant volume of
> 'Acta sanctorum...'.
>
> Peter Stewart

Dear Peter ~

Thanks for mentioning the potential error to me. When I have a chance,
I'll double check the date in question.

Peter Stewart

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Jun 23, 2005, 4:36:24 AM6/23/05
to

"D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bmsue.75$aH....@eagle.america.net...

> Thanks.
>
> It does sound as if you have a very interesting collection of books at
> home -- as you quickly come up with an amazing series of discrete
> references to what must be quite obscure books -- in many venues --
> although not so in Genealogy.
>
> It also sounds as if this Melbourne Library is a pretty darn good one.
>
> The Central Library there, I take it.

Melbourne has a number of good collections - the State Library of Victoria
used to be a copyright library for the British Empire, and governments from
all over the world presented books published by their historical
commissions, etc, mainly through diplomats in the former colony, and then
the new nation from 1901, for the sake of developing cultural links.

The local universities used to co-ordinate their acquisitions very sensibly,
and the newer ones when founded made efforts to obtain reprints or original
editions of important works not already held in the older libraries.

All of these benefits are frozen in time now, with sensible policies of
diplomacy and librarianship gone with the winds of trendiness. The major
university library here now takes pride in the world's premier collection of
romantic fiction (Barbara Cartland, that is, not George Eliot).

I concentrate on purchasing books, especially primary sources, that are not
held anywhere in Australia, so that if I do nothing useful with them there
will at least be a gain in convenience for some others when eventually I
leave them to a public library. My interest is not really in genealogy down
to the present day - I couldn't care less about my own ancestry - but rather
in medieval people and their connections to each other, especially in
Frankish families from ca. 750 to ca. 1250. Beyond that sphere I don't have
private access to very much at all.

Peter Stewart


Peter Stewart

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Jun 23, 2005, 4:38:57 AM6/23/05
to

<royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1119515217.8...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Peter Stewart wrote:
>> <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
>> news:1119485605.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> I haven't read any further, since the pedigree is scarcely of interest
>> without any sources cited and evidently no original research behind it.
>>
>> Predictably, you didn't get far without an error: Ida died on 13 April,
>> not
>> August - I gave a reference just a few days ago to the relevant volume of
>> 'Acta sanctorum...'.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>
> Dear Peter ~
>
> Thanks for mentioning the potential error to me. When I have a chance,
> I'll double check the date in question.

If you imagine you might find that the Bollandists who produced 'Acta
sanctorum' somehow got this wrong, you are highly likely to be wasting your
time.

Peter Stewart


Robert Forrest

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Jun 23, 2005, 11:19:58 AM6/23/05
to
If the full title of this "Acta Sanctorum" is "Acta sanctorum quotquot toto orbe coluntur : vel a catholicis scriptoribus
celebrantur / quæ ex Latinis et Græcis, aliarumque gentium antiquis monumentis collegit, digessit, notis illustravit Joannes
Bollandus ... ; servata primagenia scriptorum phrasi ; operam et studium contulit Godefridus Henschenius," publ. Parisiis : Apud
Victorem Palme, 1863- , there are 68 volumes.

Clagett, Brice

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Jun 23, 2005, 12:39:12 PM6/23/05
to
I take it that Douglas Richardson disagrees with the view that Judith,
wife of Earl Waltheof, was daughter of Adelaide of Normandy by Count
Enguerrand II of Montreuil and not by Lambert of Lens. See Charles
M. Hansen, "John and Margaret (Halsnode) Denne of Salem County,
New Jersey," TAG 68:193, 199 (1993). Could he tell us why?

Also: we know that Richard de Lucy married a sister of Faramus of
Boulogne, and we know that Richard de Lucy had a wife Rohese.
How do we know they were the same person? Is there proof that
Lucy had only one wife and/or that she was the mother of all his
children?

Chris Phillips

unread,
Jun 23, 2005, 1:18:18 PM6/23/05
to

Clagett, Brice wrote:
> Also: we know that Richard de Lucy married a sister of Faramus of
> Boulogne, and we know that Richard de Lucy had a wife Rohese.
> How do we know they were the same person? Is there proof that
> Lucy had only one wife and/or that she was the mother of all his
> children?

Certainly Keats-Rohan [Domesday Descendants pp. 558, 559] gives him only one
wife, and makes her the mother of Geoffrey de Lucy, Godfrey, bishop of
Winchester, Matilda, wife of Walter fitz Robert of Dunmow, Alice, wife of
Odinel de Umfraville, and Aveline, wife of Gilbert de Montfichet.

If that's accurate, it would identify her as a sister of Faramus, but it's
not clear what her evidence is. There are 2/3 of a page of references,
including an article E. Amt, "Richard de Lucy", Medieval Prosopography, 9.1
(1988). (Though that may relate to his grandson Richard.)

Chris Phillips

Gordon Banks

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Jun 23, 2005, 1:18:01 PM6/23/05
to
Is this an avocation, or are you professionally involved in this realm?
You must spend an enormous amount of time at it to be so knowledgeable.

On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 08:36 +0000, Peter Stewart wrote:

> I concentrate on purchasing books, especially primary sources, that are not
> held anywhere in Australia, so that if I do nothing useful with them there
> will at least be a gain in convenience for some others when eventually I
> leave them to a public library. My interest is not really in genealogy down
> to the present day - I couldn't care less about my own ancestry - but rather
> in medieval people and their connections to each other, especially in
> Frankish families from ca. 750 to ca. 1250. Beyond that sphere I don't have
> private access to very much at all.
>
> Peter Stewart
>

--
Gordon Banks <g...@gordonbanks.com>

D. Spencer Hines

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Jun 23, 2005, 2:17:24 PM6/23/05
to
Thanks.

That's a wise choice.

DSH

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:cwuue.1361$oJ...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

[...]

| I concentrate on purchasing books, especially primary sources, that
| are not held anywhere in Australia, so that if I do nothing useful
| with them there will at least be a gain in convenience for some

| others when eventually I leave them to a public library....

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

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Jun 23, 2005, 2:05:41 PM6/23/05
to
Dear Brice ~

No, I have never accepted Hansen's thesis that Judith, wife of Earl
Waltheof, was the daughter of Adelaide of Normandy by Count Enguerrand
II of Montreuil. Rather, I believe she was the daughter of Adelaide of
Normandy by Count Lambert of Lens.

For an up-to-date discussion of this issue, I suggest you visit Stewart
Baldwin's Henry Project website:

http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/rober000.htm

Good luck in your sleuthing!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Peter Stewart

unread,
Jun 23, 2005, 6:35:28 PM6/23/05
to

"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message
news:d9eqsv$bq4$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...

The full title of Emilie Amt's article is 'Richard de Lucy, Henry II's
Justiciar'. She gave him only one wife, name "Roysia", mother to all five of
the children ascribed to him.

Peter Stewart


Peter Stewart

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Jun 23, 2005, 6:40:06 PM6/23/05
to
"Gordon Banks" <g...@gordonbanks.com> wrote in message
news:1119547077.1...@localhost.localdomain...

> Is this an avocation, or are you professionally involved in this realm?
> You must spend an enormous amount of time at it to be so knowledgeable.

I don't know much more than where to look for what I want to know. My memory
was never very good, and is not getting better with age.

Apart from literature, that has always taken up more of my time, medieval
history and the sources for this have been my preferred reading matter since
schooldays.

Peter Stewart

Paul Mackenzie

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Jun 24, 2005, 1:53:31 AM6/24/05
to

>
>
> Melbourne has a number of good collections - the State Library of Victoria
> used to be a copyright library for the British Empire, and governments from
> all over the world presented books published by their historical
> commissions, etc, mainly through diplomats in the former colony, and then
> the new nation from 1901, for the sake of developing cultural links.
>
> The local universities used to co-ordinate their acquisitions very sensibly,
> and the newer ones when founded made efforts to obtain reprints or original
> editions of important works not already held in the older libraries.
>
> All of these benefits are frozen in time now, with sensible policies of
> diplomacy and librarianship gone with the winds of trendiness. The major
> university library here now takes pride in the world's premier collection of
> romantic fiction (Barbara Cartland, that is, not George Eliot).
>
>

You are very lucky. Poor Brisbane Library missed out to Sydney and
Melbourne Libraries. I go to Sydney once a year just to research
in their library, its just too cold to go further south (Melbourne).

Paul
Glass house Mountains
Qld.

Peter Stewart

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Jun 24, 2005, 2:02:39 AM6/24/05
to
"Gordon Banks" <g...@gordonbanks.com> wrote in message
news:1119547077.1...@localhost.localdomain...

> Is this an avocation, or are you professionally involved in this realm?

I forgot to add before that I have no professional involvement in
genealogy at all - never have had, and never will have: this goes with
my wishes anyway, but my lacking any interest in connecting medieval
lines down to the present day would rather limit any possible earnings
in the field, I guess.

I'm very happy to leave that to the people who do it by choice (many of
them excellent at their work, I'm sure), and to keep pointing out
deficiencies, as I see these, in the activities of some others.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

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Jun 24, 2005, 3:41:04 AM6/24/05
to
Well, I might say YOU are lucky - I come to the Sunchine Coast once a year
to thaw out.

When I'm there I always find something in library catalogues to draw me to
Brisbane. For instance, the Queensland State Library has the only volumes of
Europäische Stammtafeln in any Australian public collection, as well as some
other useful works not found elsewhere. The UQ library has some unique
holdings too, especially periodicals.

Sometimes I go further north to get even warmer: in Townsville there is a
set of 'Gallia christiana', otherwise only found in Melbourne and Sydney as
far as I know. It's always worth checking, as library holdings can be very
unexpected.

Peter Stewart


"Paul Mackenzie" <paul.ma...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:PdNue.203$bf....@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...

Tim Powys-Lybbe

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Jun 24, 2005, 4:02:24 AM6/24/05
to
In message of 24 Jun, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote:

> I'm very happy to leave that to the people who do it by choice (many of
> them excellent at their work, I'm sure), and to keep pointing out
> deficiencies, as I see these, in the activities of some others.

Not to mention also entertaining the readers, one of whom right here has
done many a LOL in recent weeks at your trenchant and eminently valid
observations.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          t...@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Peter Stewart

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Jun 24, 2005, 5:02:50 AM6/24/05
to

"Tim Powys-Lybbe" <t...@powys.org> wrote in message
news:7da8ef7...@south-frm.demon.co.uk...

> In message of 24 Jun, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm very happy to leave that to the people who do it by choice (many of
>> them excellent at their work, I'm sure), and to keep pointing out
>> deficiencies, as I see these, in the activities of some others.
>
> Not to mention also entertaining the readers, one of whom right here has
> done many a LOL in recent weeks at your trenchant and eminently valid
> observations.

Thank you, Tim - the great value of sgm is that puzzles and controversies
can be thrashed out instantly, and anyone (including myself) who thinks a
comment of mine is not valid can say so immediately to all the same readers.

Peter Stewart


Ian Fettes

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Jun 24, 2005, 8:04:05 PM6/24/05
to
Peter,

The next time you are in Queensland thawing out, I would love the
opportunity to catch up with you and say hello. Perhaps we could meet with
Paul on the Sunshine Coast.

Cheers,

Ian Fettes

> ______________________________

Le

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Jun 24, 2005, 10:42:28 PM6/24/05
to
Wasn't Adelaide the sister of Duke William of Normandy? Because Judith
the wife of Waltheof was his niece.

--
Sent via Genealogy Newsgroups
http://www.genealogynewsgroups.com

Le

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Jun 24, 2005, 11:07:27 PM6/24/05
to
Does the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles refer to her as Judith de Lens? I
believe will also inquire of the educators on ANSAXNET.

Todd A. Farmerie

unread,
Jun 24, 2005, 11:38:08 PM6/24/05
to
Le wrote:
> Wasn't Adelaide the sister of Duke William of Normandy? Because Judith
> the wife of Waltheof was his niece.

Adelaide shared a father with William. Sources differ as to her mother.

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

unread,
Jun 24, 2005, 11:43:55 PM6/24/05
to
Le wrote:
> Does the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles refer to her as Judith de Lens?

Judith does not appear by in the ASC.

taf

Paul Mackenzie

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Jun 25, 2005, 6:46:50 AM6/25/05
to
Ian Fettes wrote:

That's a great idea Ian.

Regards

Paul.

Le

unread,
Jun 30, 2005, 12:37:54 AM6/30/05
to
In the late Richard Fletcher's Bloodfeud: Murder and Revenge in
Anglo-Saxon England he identifies the parentage of Judith wife of Earl
Waltheof as Count Enguerrand II of Ponthieu and Adelaide sister of
William I King of England. Is this not correct. The copyright for the
book is 2003.

Le

unread,
Jun 30, 2005, 12:39:56 AM6/30/05
to
In the late Richard Fletcher's Bloodfeud: Murder and Revenge in
Anglo-Saxon England he identifies the parentage of Judith wife of Earl
Waltheof as Count Enguerrand II of Ponthieu and Adelaide sister of
William I King of England. Is this not correct. The copyright for the
book is 2003. The page number of the book is 187.
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