Two Maud Banesters ? wifes of William Comyn and William Hastings
Jwc...@aol.com
In
Carl Boyer III`s book Medieval English Ancestors of Certain Americans p 58 He
indicates that William Comyn died before 1140 and his wife Maud, daughter of
Thurstan Banester or Basset married 2nd William de Hastings. She is known to have
had four sons of this marriage, William, Richard, Osbert and Walter Comyn. We
know Richard recieved a grant of land in about 1144 (Northallerton Castle)
perhaps in conjunction with his marriage to Hextilda of Tynedale. As He recieved
a grant of land, We know He was born not later than 1123. If He were the
oldest son or a twin, then his mother was born not later than 1109. In Douglas
Richardson`s Magna Carta Ancestry under Elsing, We find William de Hastings b
abt 1163 -d 1226, son of William Hastings and Maud, daughter of Thurstan
Banister recieved livery of his mother`s manor of Aston. Warwickshire in 1222. If
the lady had just died, She could be no less than 113 years old, which is
incredibly unlikely. Unless Maud Banester the wife of Comyn was the aunt of Maud
Banester the wife of Hastings, each the daughter of a successive Thurston
Banester, it`s unlikely the two familes were closely related.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
The...@aol.com
Dear James, et al.,
Thurstan Banaster and Thurstan Bisset were not the same individual.
Aside from the chronological and evident name conflicts, the lands of
Thurstan Banaster were divided among his co-heirs, including the issue
of his daughter Maud by William de Hastings (see 3 generation pedigree
given below). If Maud had surviving male issue by a prior marriage,
the history of the Hastings family (and others) would have been
noticeably different. This appears to be an erroneous conflation
in Mr. Boyer's book.
Cheers,
John *
1 Thurstan de Banastre
----------------------------------------
of Munslow and Aston, co. Salop and Little Appleby, co. Leics.[1]
witness to charters of Ranulf, Earl of Chester ca. 1150[2]
' Thurstano Banaster ', witness [together with Geoffrey le Despenser,
Robert Basset Hugh Wake and others] to grant by Richard Bacun, kinsman
of Ranulf, Earl of Chester ["Ranulphi Comitis Cestriae avunculi mei"]
granting his manor of Roucester to the Augustinian monks, ca. 1153
[HSP 18:160, Vis. Chester (1580), p. 160[3]]
a charter dated c. 1183, from G[erard de Pucella] bishop of Coventry
to the monks of the priory of Coventry, confirmed grants of land and
other rights to the priory and stated,
'.. No body was to be buried in the churchyards of Anesti, Sulft',
Wica and Alleslea [Allesley], which had been dedicated during the
civil war for the refuge of the poor at the request of Ranulph
Earl of Chester and Thurstan Banaster, and by allowance of Richard
the bishop and his chapter, but all bodies with the usual benefits
were to be borne to the mother church of Coventry, according to the
charters of bishop Roger [de Clinton], the Earl of Chester and
Thurstan Banaster. Those persons dying within the bishopric who
chose to be buried at Coventry should be buried there without
hindrance, and any devises which they might make should be allowed
to the monastery saving the parochial rights of the churches whence
they came.' - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office:
Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467], DOCUMENTS OF TITLE,
DEEDS AND PAPERS: Warwickshire, Coventry [DR10/258 ][4]
Children: Maud (-<1222)
Margery
1.1 Maud de Banastre
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 17 Jun 1222[1]
'Matild' Banastr'[5]
coheiress of her father
her inheritance included the manors of Munslow and Aston, co.
Salop (held in chief) [Eyton, Vol. V, pp. 132-133][1]
Spouse: William de Hastings, 'dapifer' of the abbey of St. Edmundsbury
Death: bef 1183[1]
Father: Hugh de Hastings, of Aston Flamville, co. Leics. (-<1152)
Mother: Erneburga de Flamville
Children: Henry (<1168-1194)
William (-<1226)
1.1.1 William de Hastings
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 28 Jan 1226[1]
of Aston-Flamville, co. Leics., and Munslow and Aston, co. Salop
younger son, heir of brother Henry
mandate to the sheriff of Shropshire to deliver seisin to 'Will's de
Hasting' ' following his fine for his inheritance at Aston, co. Salop
as heir of 'Matild' Banastr' mater predicti Willi ', Westminster,
17 June 1222 [Excerpta I:87][5](see also Eyton)[1]
hereditary steward of the abbey of St. Edmundsbury, Suffolk
he held '5 knights'-fees under the Abbey, viz. 3 in Lidgate, Blunham,
and Herlinge, and 2 in Tibenham and Gissing.' [Eyton V:139][1]
(could not be elder brother, as he was alive after 1182 based on
wife's prob. birth, ca. 1175 or later)
'proferred 100 merks for his Relief of the lands and Serjeantry of
the said Henry, and 100 merks more for the King's Favour in regard
that he did not then accompany the King into Normandy.' [Eyton V:138,
citing Dugdale and Rot. Pip. 6 Ric. I, Norf. and Suff.][1]
in rebellion against King John, as of 10 April 1216 (Farrer HKF II:80,
citing King John's orders concerning William's lands and
castles: R. Lit. Claus. i, 260, 279b)
'In August 1216, Hastinges gave hostages for his fidelity and
returned to allegiance. In 1224 William de Hastinges knt.
presented to the church of Nailstone,..' (Farrer HKF II:80,
citing R. Lit. Claus. i. 282b, and Reg. H. de Welles, ii. 298)[6]
Spouse: Margaret le Bigod[7]
Father: Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk (-<1221)
Mother: Ida de Tosny [ "the Countess Ida" ]
Children: Sir Henry (<1206-<1250)
Ida, m. 1) Stephen de Segrave
1.2 Margery de Banastre
----------------------------------------
coheiress of her father: her purparty included Little Appleby,
co. Leics. [see below]
'Margaret the mother of Quenilda;...
'Quenilda's mother was daughter of Thurstan Banastre.' Farrer,
HKF II:57 (citing Leics.Arch.Soc. xi, 428)[6]
Spouse: Richard fitz Roger, of Woodplumpton
Children: Maud, m. Robert de Stockport
Avice, m. William de Millom
Quenilda, m. 1) Jordan de Thornhill
Margaret
Amuria
1. The Rev. R. W. Eyton, "Antiquities of Shropshire," London: John
Russell Smith, 1855, Vol. 5 - p. 242 (Ludlow), pp. 132 (Banaster)
and 133-142 (Barony of Hastings), Vol. 6 - pp. 350-359 (Meole Brace
and de Bracy).
2. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville' Jul
2, 2002, p. 723 (Osmund de Stuteville), full title: Domesday
Descendants: A Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English
Documents 1066-1166: Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
3. "The Visitation of Cheshire," Harleian Series, Vol. 18, Vol. 18,
pp. 43 et seq. [Brereton of Malpas].
4. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
5. Charles Roberts, ed., "Excerpta ex Rotulis Finium," The
Commissioners of the Public Records of the Kingdom, Vol I
(1216-1246), 1835, full title:
Excerpta e Rotulis Finium in Turri Londinensi asservatis,
Henrico Tertio Rege, A.D. 1216-1272.
6. William Farrer, Litt.D., "Honors and Knights' Fees," London:
Spottiswoode, Ballantyne & Co., Ltd., 1924 (3 vols.), Vol I:,
Vol II: Chester; Huntingdon, Vol III: Arundel, Eudes the Sewer,
Warenne.
7. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr &
David Faris).
* John P. Ravilious
Jwc...@aol.com
William Comyn`s wife was a Maud Bisset ?
Tim Powys-Lybbe
<snip>
> 1.1 Maud de Banastre
> ----------------------------------------
> Death: bef 17 Jun 1222[1]
>
> 'Matild' Banastr'[5]
> coheiress of her father
>
> her inheritance included the manors of Munslow and Aston, co.
> Salop (held in chief) [Eyton, Vol. V, pp. 132-133][1]
>
> Spouse: William de Hastings, 'dapifer' of the abbey of St. Edmundsbury
> Death: bef 1183[1]
> Father: Hugh de Hastings, of Aston Flamville, co. Leics. (-<1152)
> Mother: Erneburga de Flamville
This William de Hastings is the one mentioned in Keats-Rohan's "Domesday
Descendants" as "William filius Hugonis de Hastings" on p. 507.
In the same paragraph she said that in 1235/6 his land in Tormarton were
held by "the wife of Osbert Giffard, the wife of William de Hastings and
Geoffrey Martel appears that his lands" and "in 1242 Henry de Hastings
held one fee at Congerstone, Leicestershire, of Earl Ferrers"; this
makes it likely that William and Henry de Hastings were descendants of
this William.
The hereditary steward of the abbot of St Edmundsbury, Suffolk and the
holder of fees of Bury at Lidgate, Blunham is indeed given by
Keats-Rohan in the same book as "William de Hastings Dispensator" and
also on the same page, 507. However she clearly says both that this
William was the son of William fitz Robert of Hastings and that the
latter married Helewis de Guerres. She does not give the wife for
William the Dispensator.
How do we sort this one out?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
The...@aol.com
Dear Tim,
The problem appears to be that the office of hereditary steward of St.
Edmundsbury (and that of despenser, evidently appended to it) did not pass in
anything approaching a direct line, at least until the death of William de
Hastings (d. bef 28 Jan 1226; husband of Margaret le Bigod). Following his
death, his son Henry de Hastings held Ashill by serjeanty of the king's
despenser [1226/8 and 1236, as given in DD 507, citing Fees, 387, 402, 592].
The following chart reflects the relationships of the 'hereditary'
stewards of St. Edmundsbury, starting with Maurice fitz Walter. He was
succeeded by his nephew Ralph de Hastings <2>, then successively by HIS
nephew William (fitz William fitz Robert, <III> below), HIS cousin William
(fitz Hugh de Hastings, <IV> below), and then HIS nephew Henry de
Hastings <V>. I mark Thomas de Hastings with the number <V> in the chart
below, as he was involved in securing his nephew Henry's rights as steward:
according to my notes,
" On 1 April 1182 Thomas de Hastings appeared before the Abbot of
St. Edmund's, leading 'his nephew Henry de Hastings', who was not
yet a knight, and demanded for him his hereditary office of dapifer
of the Abbey . " [Kay Allen, citing Jocelin de Brakelond; Eyton;
and Clark]
I will provide a more detailed pedigree in a followup post, providing the
documentation I have to date on the matter.
Cheers,
John *
Walter fitz Other = Beatrice
castellan of Windsor, d. aft 1099 I
<tenant at Domesday, 1086> I
________________________________________I_______________________________
I I I I I ___________ I
William Gerald Rainald I I I I I
constable castellan _____I Maurice = Edith Robert (fitz = NN
of of Windsor I I Walter) de I
Windsor = Nesta Hugh I Hastings I
I ________I of Little Easton I
I I I
V Robert ____________________I
___________________________I_____________
I I I
Ralph de Hastings William de Hastings Hugh de Hastings
<II> despenser and steward of Little Easton of Eston Flamville
d.s.p. aft 1158 = 1) NN = 2) Juliana = Erneburga
______________I I de Flamville
I ________I__ _______I________
I I I I I I
Robert de Hastings William <sisters> William Thomas
of Little Easton <III> <IV> <V>
d. ca. 1190 despenser despenser I
I fl. 1164/5 and steward I
I = Maud de V
I Banastre a quo
2) Godfrey = Alice ______________I_____ HASTINGS
de Louvain I I I of
Gissing
I Henry William
V <V> <VI>
a quo steward steward
LOVAINE d.s.p. 1194 I
of Little Easton I
V
a quo
HASTINGS
of Elsing
The...@aol.com
Dear Tim (et al.),
Following is the detailed (if not complete) pedigree, from Walter fitz
Other the Domesday tenant (and his son Maurice, first hereditary steward of
the Abbey of St. Edmundsbury, Suffolk) showing the various Hastings lines
involved in the tenure of the stewardship.
Should anyone note any defect or error, or additional documentation that
is pertinent, please advise.
Cheers,
John
1 Walter fitz Other
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1099[1]
Occ: castellan of Windsor
tenant of lands in Berks., Bucks. Middlesex, Hants. and Surrey at Domesday
Book 1086[1]
these land included Eton, co. Bucks.
Keeper of the Great Forest at Windsor
Spouse: Beatrice[1]
Children: William (-ca1160)
Robert
Gerald, castellan of Windsor, m. Nesta ferch Rhys
Rainald
Maurice
Hugh
NN, m. Robert fitz Walter
1.1 Maurice fitz Walter
----------------------------------------
royal dispenser (dispensator)
hereditary steward of the Abbey of St. Edmundsbury, Suffolk[2]
succeeded by his nephew, Ralph de Hastings[3]
Spouse: Edith fitz Walter [sister of Robert de Hastings] [3]
Father: Walter the Deacon
Mother: NN
1.2 NN de Windsor[1]
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Robert de Hastings, of Little Easton
Death: bef 1129[3]
Father: Walter the Deacon, of Little Easton
Mother: NN
Children: Ralph (->1158)
William (-<1167)
Hugh (-<1152)
1.2.1 Ralph de Hastings
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1158, d.s.p.[2]
royal dispenser (successor to his uncle Maurice fitz Walter)[3]
also his successor as hereditary steward of the Abbey of St. Edmundsbury,
Suffolk (confirmed by charter from King Henry II)[2]
'His heir and successor as dapifer was his nephew William fitz William
[sic] de Hastings, who was confirmed in his position by Henry II in 1164'
(DD, p. 505)[4]
1.2.2a William de Hastings*
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1167[5]
of Little Easton, Essex[5]
had livery of his father's lands, 1128[3]
he m. lstly NN,
2ndly Juliana 'filia John fitz Waleran'
re: his second wife, Juliana:
she m. lstly William de Hastings (evidently 2nd wife),
2ndly Robert Doisnel[3]
identified in the Pipe Roll of 30 Hen I (1130):
"Essex..
Juliana, wife of William of Hastings, owes £6 from old
aid of knights from the fief of Waleran, her grandfather..."[6]
re: John fitz Waleran, father of Juliana:
of Herstmonceux and Warberton, Sussex
'John's heir was his daughter Juliana, wife in 1129 of William of
Hastings (PR 31 Henry I, 58). She was subsequently the wife of Robert
Doisnel, a royal marshal whose daughter Juliana was married to Henry
II's servant William fitz Aldelin and died without issue. In 1199 her
heirs in both the land of John fitz Waleran and the marshal serjeanty
held by Robert Doisnel were William of Warberton and Ingelran de
Monceux, whose rights derived from his wife Idonea de Monceux
(Farrer, HKF iii, 376). William, the senior heir, and Idonea, were
probably descendants of the elder Juliana's first marriage to William
of Hastings. Part of the inheritance they shared was five fees at
Herstmonceaux and Warberton held of the count of Eu in the Rape of
Hastings.'[3]
NOTE: Juliana Doisnel was the daughter of Juliana by her second husband,
Robert Doisnel[3]
Spouse: NN [1st wife]
Children: Robert (-ca1190)
1.2.2a.1 Robert de Hastings
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1190[5]
of Little Easton, Essex[5]
~not a descendant of Juliana, but evidently of another wife (the heirs
of Juliana filia John were as noted elsewhere)[3]
Children: Alice
1.2.2a.1.1 Alice de Hastings[7]
----------------------------------------
heiress of Little Easton, Essex
she m. 1stly Ralph de Cornhill,
2ndly Godfrey de Louvain
cf. Eye cartulary II:32[8]
re: her husband, Godfrey de Louvain:
custodian of the castle of Eye in Suffolk[7], or
'seneschal of the honour of Eye' for his brother Henry of Brabant, lord
of same[1],[8]
in the entourage of his brother Duke Henry of Brabant, attending the
coronation of King John of England, 27 May 1199[8]
cf. ES I Band I.2 Tafel 237 (Die Herzoge von Brabant)[9]
Spouse: Godfrey of Louvain
Death: bef 26 Apr 1226[1]
Father: Godfrey III of Louvain (-1190)
Mother: Imaine of Loos
Marr: ca 1199[7]
Children: Matthew (-<1258)
John
1.2.2b William de Hastings* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Juliana [2nd wife]
Father: John fitz Waleran (-<1130)
Marr: bef 1130[3]
Children: William
NN
NN
1.2.2b.1 William de Hastings
----------------------------------------
despenser to King Henry II
confirmed in the office of Ralph de Hastings his uncle ('patruus') as
steward of Bury St. Edmunds, 1164/5[4]
1.2.2b.2 NN de Hastings
----------------------------------------
~the mother of Idonea, wife of Ingram de Monceaux was
evidently the child of Juliana 'filia Johanni' :
1. Idonea was coheiress of Juliana Doisnel together
with William de Warberton[3]; to have equal right
as coheir with William, Idonea must have been
either a daughter of Juliana, or daughter of a
daughter of Juliana (and William the son of
a daughter of Juliana, other than the mother of
Idonea)
Spouse: NN
Children: Idonea
1.2.2b.2.1 Idonea
----------------------------------------
'one of the heiresses of John fitz Waleran,..' (DD 590)
she and her son Robert were benefactors of Robertsbridge abbey (DD 590,
citing Facsimiles of Charters in the British Museum, 61)[4]
Spouse: Sir Ingram de Monceaux
Death: aft 1225[10]
Father: Sir Alan de Monceaux (->1181)
Mother: Matilda
Marr: bef 1199[4],[3]
Children: Sir Robert (->1272)
Waleran
1.2.2b.3 NN de Hastings
----------------------------------------
coheiress (in her issue) of Juliana Doisnel[3]
Spouse: NN
Children: William
1.2.2b.3.1 William de Warberton
----------------------------------------
1.2.3 Hugh de Hastings
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1152[12]
of Aston Flamville, co. Leics. & c.
he had the manors of Eston [Aston Flamville], Sketchley, Stapleton & c. as
the maritagium of his wife[12]: he
' .. accounted in Leicestershire in 1129/30 to have the land of the niece
('nepta') of Robert de Flamville.' DD, p. 505[4]
noted in the Pipe Rolls in 1130 as having
'accounted for 90 merks and 2 Destriers, being the whole or the balance
of a Fine which he had given to the King "for having the land and the
niece of Robert de Flamenvil." ' [Eyton, Vol. V, p. 136 citing Rot. Pip.
31 Hen. I, p. 87][2]
Spouse: Erneburga de Flamville
Father: Hugh de Flamville
Marr: ca 1130[2]
Children: William (-<1183)
Thomas
1.2.3.1 William de Hastings
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1183[2]
of Aston-Flamville, co. Leics. & c.
royal steward
'dapifer' of the abbey of St. Edmundsbury
' Willelmus de Hasting, v milites.', held land by the service of 5
knights' fees in Norfolk of the Honour of St. Edmund, 1166 [Red Book
of the Exchequer I:392[13]]
King Henry II confirmed the stewardship of St. Edmund's ' as it had been
held by his paternal uncle, Ralf,...' ca. 1166[12]; further, the King
'confirmed to William de Hastings his inheritance which came from his
grandfather, William de Hastings *, and from Hugh Hastings his father,
in the time of Henry I, and also the lands given to Robert de Flamville
by Robert de Limesi, Bishop of Coventry, which came from his mother
Ernberga de Flamville.' (Kay Allen, citing Eyton's Shropshire, V: 137,
151)[12]
* -evidently an error for Robert de Hastings.
'Willmo de Hasting', witness together with Joscelin de Baliol and
Richard de Lucy to a charter of Henry II restoring the lands of
Guy son of Tece, dated Durham (before 1169). C. Phillips [Transcript of
Argentein evidences, British Library Harleian MS 6072, fo 17.][14]
made a gift of land to the Templars at Templehurst, West Riding, co. Yorks.
together with uncle Ralf[12]
Spouse: Maud de Banastre
Death: bef 17 Jun 1222[2]
Father: Thurstan de Banastre
Children: Henry (<1168-1194)
William (-<1226)
1.2.3.1.1 Henry de Hastings
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 1168[2]
Death: 1194, d.s.p.[12],[2]
elder son and heir
"On 1 April 1182 Thomas de Hastings appeared before the Abbot of St.
Edmund's, leading 'his nephew Henry de Hastings', who was not yet a
knight, and demanded for him his hereditary office of dapifer of the
Abbey . " (Kay Allen, citing Jocelin de Brakelond; Eyton; and Clark)[12]
participant in the Third Crusade with King Richard (possibly died on
Crusade)[2]
1.2.3.1.2 William de Hastings
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 28 Jan 1226[2]
of Aston-Flamville, co. Leics., and Munslow and Aston, co. Salop
younger son, heir of brother Henry
mandate to the sheriff of Shropshire to deliver seisin to 'Will's de
Hasting' ' following his fine for his inheritance at Aston, co. Salop
as heir of 'Matild' Banastr' mater predicti Willi ', Westminster, 17
June 1222 [Excerpta I:87][15](see also Eyton)[2]
hereditary steward of the abbey of St. Edmundsbury, Suffolk
he held '5 knights'-fees under the Abbey, viz. 3 in Lidgate, Blunham,
and Herlinge, and 2 in Tibenham and Gissing.' [Eyton, Vol. V, p. 139][2]
(could not be elder brother, as he was alive after 1182 based on wife's
prob. birth, ca. 1175 or later - J. Ravilious)
'proferred 100 merks for his Relief of the lands and Serjeantry of the
said Henry, and 100 merks more for the King's Favour in regard that he
did not then accompany the King into Normandy.' [Eyton, Vol. V, p. 138,
citing Dugdale and Rot. Pip. 6 Ric. I, Norf. and Suff.][2]
in rebellion against King John, as of 10 April 1216 (Farrer HKF II:80,
citing King John's orders concerning William's lands and castles: R.
Lit. Claus. i, 260, 279b)
'In August 1216, Hastinges gave hostages for his fidelity and returned
to allegiance. In 1224 William de Hastinges knt. presented to the
church of Nailstone,..' (Farrer HKF II:80, citing R. Lit. Claus. i. 282b,
and Reg. H. de Welles, ii. 298)[16]
Spouse: Margaret le Bigod[17]
Father: Roger le Bigod (-<1221)
Mother: Ida de Tosny
Children: Sir Henry (<1206-<1250)
Ida (-<1288)
1.2.3.1.2.1 Sir Henry de Hastings[18],[19]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 9 Aug 1250[1]
Birth: bef 1206[16]
knight, of Ashill, co. Norfolk and Nailstone, co. Leics.[1]
minor at his father's death: re: his father, Farrer wrote following the
death (before Jan 1225/6),
' ...the custody of the land and heir was committed in 1225
to Osbert Giffard for 200 marks. In the following year
Henry son and heir of William de Hastinges gave 50 marks
for his relief and had livery of his lands in Salop,
Bedfordshire, Norfolk and Suffolk.' Farrer, HKF II:80
(cites R. Lit. Claus. i 618b, 644, and Excerpta e R. Fin. i. 137)[16]
held Ashill by serjeanty of the king's despenser (dispensarius), 1226/8
and 1236 (DD 507, citing Fees, 387, 402, 592)[4]
held one knight's fee of Hugh d'Aubigny, Earl of Arundel at Nailstone,
co. Leics., 1235-36 (HKF II:80, citing Bk. of Fees, 516)[16]
held one knight's fee of Ferrers, Earl of Derby at Congerstone, co.
Leics., 1242 (DD 507, citing Fees, 946)[4]
Spouse: Ada of Huntingdon[18],[19]
Death: aft 2 Nov 1241[1]
Father: David of Scotland (-1219)
Mother: Maud of Chester (1171-ca1233)
Marr: bef 7 Jun 1237[1]
Children: Henry (>1232-<1268)
Margery
Hilaire (->1284)
1.2.3.2 Thomas de Hastings
----------------------------------------
made demand for hereditary rights of nephew Henry de Hastings, 1182[12]
Children: Hugh [evidently ancestor of HASTINGS of Gissing]
1. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint, 1982
(Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great
Britain and the United Kingdom.
2. "Antiquities of Shropshire," The Rev. R. W. Eyton, London: John Russell
Smith, 1855, Vol. 5 - p. 242 (Ludlow), pp. 132 (Banaster) and 133-142
(Barony of Hastings), Vol. 6 - pp. 350-359 (Meole Brace and de Bracy).
3. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Additions and Corrections to Sanders’s Baronies
Prosopon, Number 11 (July 2000),"
http://www.linacre.ox.ac.uk/research/Prosop
David E. Thornton, editor, Prosopon 11 (July 2000), The Unit for
Prosopographic Research, Linacre College, Oxford, Little Easton (p. 130),
Aveley (p. 2); Brattleby (p. 109) ; North Cadbury (p. 68), above are
emendations to Ian Sander's work, English Baronies (1960).
4. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville' Jul 2,
2002, p. 723 (Osmund de Stuteville), full title: Domesday Descendants:
A Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166:
Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
5. Alan B. Wilson, "Hastings Pedigree," May 9, 1999,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
6. "PIPE ROLL OF 31 HENRY I (1130),"
http://www.constitution.org/sech/sech_025.txt
includes citations from the Pipe Roll 31 Hen I (1129/30), also from other
'miscellaneous' rolls: e.g. 5 Steph (1139), re: Hugh d'Auberville.
8. R. Allen Brown, ed., "Eye Priory Cartulary and Charters," Suffolk Records
Society, Suffolk Charters (vol. XII), courtesy Ancestry.com
http://www.ancestry.com
9. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Neue Folge," Frankfurt
am Main: Vittorio Klostermann, 1999 [4th series], Band I.2 - Premysliden,
Askanier, Herzoge von Lothringen, die Hauser Hessen, Wurttemberg und
Zahringen, First series by Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued
second series by Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
10. George Poulson, Esq., "The History and Antiquities of the Seigniory of
Holderness," Hull: Thomas Topping, and W. Pickering, 1840 (Vol I)
1841 (Vol II), pp. 197-198, pedigree of Hilton of Swine.
11. William Farrer, Hon.D.Litt., Editor, "Early Yorkshire Charters,"
Ballantyne, Hanson & Co., Edinburgh, 1915-1916, Vol. II (1915)
Vol. III (1916), Vol. XII [the family of Constable of Flamborough],
courtesy Rosie Bevan, Vol. V [Manfield fee, pp. 53-58 ], courtesy
Rosie Bevan, <Re: Avice de Tanfield, wife of Robert Marmion>, SGM, 26
Feb 2002.
12. Kay Allen, AG, "Hastings Pedigree," Aug 24, 1998,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
13. Hubert Hall, F.S.A., ed., "The Red Book of the Exchequer," London:
Printed for Her Majesty's Stationery Office by Eyre and Spottiswoode,
1896, Vols. I, II.
14. "Medieval Genealogy," http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/
various dates, website of Chris Phillips, citing and transcribing
various sources for medieval genealogy, including a section of
Corrections to Complete Peerage.
15. Charles Roberts, ed., "Excerpta ex Rotulis Finium," The Commissioners
of the Public Records of the Kingdom, Vol I (1216-1246), 1835, full
title: Excerpta e Rotulis Finium in Turri Londinensi asservatis,
Henrico Tertio Rege, A.D. 1216-1272.
16. William Farrer, Litt.D., "Honors and Knights' Fees," London: Spottiswoode,
Ballantyne & Co., Ltd., 1924 (3 vols.), Vol I:, Vol II: Chester;
Huntingdon, Vol III: Arundel, Eudes the Sewer, Warenne.
17. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215," Baltimore:
Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David Faris).
18. Sir James Balfour Paul, ed., "The Scots Peerage," Edinburgh: David
Douglas, 1904-1914 (9 volumes).
19. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William Flower, Esquire,
Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Series, Vol. 16, Mitchell and Hughes,
Printers, London, 1881, pp. 154-156: pedigree of Hastings of Elsing
('Hastynges..' of Fenwick, co. Yorks.), 'The Visitation of Yorkshire in
the Years 1563 and 1564'.
20. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record Office,
Henry III. A.D. 1247-1258, London: for the Public Record Office.
21. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and Descent,
1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
22. "Clan Stirling," http://www.clanstirling.org/uploads/ragmanrolls.pdf
provides .pdf file of the names of those who swore allegiance to Edward
I of England at Berwick, 1296 (the 'Ragman Rolls').
23. W. A. Copinger, M.A., LL.D., F.S.A., "The Manors of Suffolk: Notes on
Their History and Devolution," London: T. F. Unwin, 1905-1911, 7 Vols.
24. Douglas Richardson, "CP Addition: Dispensation of John de Hastings &
Isabel de Valence," Sept 4, 2003, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, cites
Original Papal Documents in England & Wales (1198–1304), p. 351,
dispensation for marriage of John de Hastings and Isabel de Valence.
25. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record Office,
Edward I. A.D. 1292-1301, London: for the Public Record Office.
26. Brian Timms, "The Caerlaverock Roll," an occasional roll of arms of those
having fought in the siege of Caerlaverock, July 1300,
http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/caerlaverockK.html
This is an occasional roll, listing those present in the siege of
Caerlaverock, The original blazon is from Gerard G Brault, "Eight
Thirteenth Century Rolls of Arms", Pennsylvania State University Press,
1973.
27. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
extracted 5 Nov 2001, Wiltshire [Bassett], Yorkshire [Salvain] -
North Duffield.
28. Brian Timms, "The Barons' Letter in reply to the Pope, February 1301,"
http://www.briantimms.com/baronsletter/background.htm
Seven earls and sixty five barons sealed the letter, which is now in
the Public Record Office.
29. G. W. S. Barrow, "Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm of
Scotland," Edinburgh University Press, 1976 (2nd ed.).
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Obviously the above may well be right, nut it then means that one or two
bits in Keats-Rohan's Domesday Descendants are wrong. Here is the full
text she wrote about the William (III) Dispencer above:
Son of William fitz Robert of Hastings, lord of Little Easton
(d.c.1162). Heir of his uncle Ralph de Hastings (d.c.1163). Royal
dispencer to Henry, who, in 1164/5, confirmed him in the office of his
paternal uncle (patruus) Ralph I of Hastings as steward of Bury St
Edmunds, an office the said Ralph had inherited from his maternal
uncle (avunculus) Maurice of Windsor. In 1166 he held five fees of
Bury St Edmunds, and half a fee de novo at Compton, Surrey, of his
kinsman William of Windsor. In 1200 William de Hastings held five
fees of Bury at Lidgate, Blunham (Bedfordshire), West Harling,
Tibenham and Gissing, in Norfolk (Jocelyn of Brakelond, 120). Before
1162 it is difficult to distinguish William from his father in public
records. Around 1224 his _descendant_ [my emphasis] William de
Hastings held the serjeanty of the king's dispencer ('tenet per
sergentiam dispensarie regis') in Norfolk and Suffolk (Fees, 346). In
1226/8 and 1236 Henry de Hastings answered for the same serjeanty at
Ashill in Wayland hundred, Norfolk (Fees, 387, 402, 593)
She concluded with this list of references: (I have had to alter the
layout slightly as she uses italics a lot in this section for which I
have substituted quote marks)
Douglas, 'Feudal Documents from Bury St Edmunds', no 89; Gervers,
'Cartulary of Knights St John', II (1996), no 10, Pipe Roll 10 Henry
II, 10-sm; Pipe Roll 11 Henry II, 63-dssm, 64-dssm, 70-ox, 75-bk; Pipe
Roll 12 Henry II, 99-dssm; 'Red Book of the Exchequer', ed Hall
(1897), pp. 315-16, 392-94, 403-7; Stenton, 'Documents illustrative of
Danelaw' (1920), no. 63.
While she does have, as in my earlier post, articles on William IV and
his father Hugo, nowhere does she say that William IV was dispencer nor
that Hugo was the son of Robert of Hastings.
Further she has separately a William de Hastings who m. Juliana daughter
of John fitz Waleran. This William she says was the son of Robert of
Hastings. She does not give any wife to the above William the
Dispensator who held that office from 1164/5 to sometime after 1200.
The William de Hastings of Little Easton, son of Robert fitz Walter, she
gives as having married Helewis de Guerres and having at least these
children (citing Cal. of Ancient Deeds, A. 13694):
Robert of Hastings
William of Hastings
Ralph of Hastings
Alexander
John
Beatrice m. (1) Gilbert Carbonel, (2) Wm de Goldingham
She says he was probably also father of Amabilis de Hastings, sister of
William [the Dispensator] and wife successively of Richard fitz Robert
Foliot and of Ralph of Exeter.
Finally she says that Helewis de Guerres m. (2) Gilbert de Picquigny and
then (3) (another) William fitz Robert (Fees, 282) and she was still
alive in the early thirteenth century.
It seems that Eyton and Keats-Rohan give very different pictures of the
various Hastingses. In view of Eyton living very much earlier and thus
with probably much less access to all the documents that are now made
public, I wonder if Eyton can still be relied on. Certainly Keats-Rohan
does not mention Eyton in her account of the Hastingses. She does
mention Sanders, of whom usually she is a great fan and says 'he is
unreliable on this family'.
I have nothing more to offer as I do not have convenient access to the
primary source material that she cites, let alone could I read it in
other then translation.
E&OE for the transcriptions.
John P. Ravilious
Thanks for your post, and the detailed feedback re: KSB K-R's
text (especially as regards William 'III' de Hastings).
Overall, she gives many more details in certain areas than I
show in my database,, which are of course welcome. I will look later
into the apparent chronology based on her 'version' vs. mine, esp. as
regards casting William 'VI' de Hastings as a descendant of William
'III'.
Cheers,
John
Turenne
http://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/Jpindex.htm I don't know if
it is of any interest - or relevence.
How does Banastre Tarleton fit in, (if at all) to the family you are
researching?