Griffith - Willoughby - Somerville
Robert O'Connor
++++
Sir EDMUND WILLOUGHBY, Kt., of Wollaton, Notts., M Alice Somerville,
heiress of Cossington & Hamilton, Leics. Died 1414. He had issue:
Payling,
p 242 HSP Notts I, p 145
++++
I am having trouble placing "Alice Somerville", and indeed wonder if she
was a Somerville at all. Payling calls her "heiress of Cossington", but
does not show the specific connection with the Somerville family which
owned Cossington.
The Willoughbys of Wollaton held Cossington in Leicestershire, thereby
strongly suggesting such a connection.
The last Somerville was, however, Sir Philip Somerville (d 1355). He held
Cossington, although his main property was Whichnor in Staffordshire. Sir
Philp had, according to Steebing Shaw, only two daughters & no sons.
The first Joan married Sir Rhys ap Griffith (d 1356), & had issue,
according to Stebbing Shaw at least, two sons:
+ Sir Henry Griffith married Joan Clinton, of Coleshill
+ Sir Rhys Griffith married Margaret Zouche of Codnor & d 1380.
The second Elizabeth married Sir John de Stafford, of Bramshall, Staffs, &
had one child - Maud (M 1st Edmund Vernon & 2nd Richard, 1st Baron Stafford
of Clifton). Maud d.s.p.
Chronologically, Alice "Somerville" (wife of Sir Edmind Willoughby) was
probably not a daughter of Sir Philip Somerville. It seems to me that she
may have in fact been a daughter of Sir Rhys ap Griffith d 1356 & his wife
Joan Somerville, & thus brought Cossington to the Willoughbys that way.
Has anyone done any research on the Somerville or Griffith families that
may assist me in identifying my Alice "Somerville".
Many thanks
--
Robert O'Connor
roco...@es.co.nz
Christchurch
New Zealand
Robert O'Connor
"In this generation of the Somervilles, IIRC there were several sons,
brothers of Philip, and so there are other possible placements. In
fact, Philip was not even the elder"
However, according to Stebbing Shaw's pedigree of the Somervilles, all of
Philip's elder brothers, Robert, Adam, John, Edmund & Roger, d.s.p.
The fact remains that Alice wife of Sir Edmund Willoughby d 1414 brought
Cossington (a Somervile property) to the Willoughbys.
Douglas Richardson
If you study Payling's list of sources for the Willoughby
family of Nottinghamshire, you will see that he refers to
the following unpublished dissertation:
M. Bloom, "The Careers of Sir Richard II de Willoughby and
Sir Richard III de Willouighbym, Chief Justice of the
King's Bench (1338-1340) & the Rise of the Willoughbys of
Nottinghamshire," D. Phil. thesis, Oxford, 1985.
I believe you will find the information on the link between
the Somerville and Willoughby families in that source.
Incidentally, I see that Payling states that Sir Richard
III de Willoughby married (lst) in 1310, to Isabel Morteyn
(died 1332); (2nd) Joan Charron, widow of Sir Bertram
Monboucher (died 1332); and (3rd) Elizabeth, widow of
Richard Champernoun, of Modbury, Devon.
Any ideas as to which wife was the mother of Sir Richard's
daughter, Lucy, who married (lst) Sir Thomas Huscarle and
(2nd) Nicholas Carew (died 1390)? I assume it was Joan
Charron. If so, do you have her ancestry? Payling says
Joan was the heiress of property in Northumberland but
doesn't identify her parents.
All for now. Best always, Douglas Richardson
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Robert O'Connor
Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com> wrote in article
<1c31fd54...@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com>...
Incidentally, I see that Payling states that Sir Richard
III de Willoughby married (lst) in 1310, to Isabel Morteyn
(died 1332); (2nd) Joan Charron, widow of Sir Bertram
Monboucher (died 1332); and (3rd) Elizabeth, widow of
Richard Champernoun, of Modbury, Devon.
Any ideas as to which wife was the mother of Sir Richard's
daughter, Lucy, who married (lst) Sir Thomas Huscarle and
(2nd) Nicholas Carew (died 1390)? I assume it was Joan
Charron. If so, do you have her ancestry? Payling says
Joan was the heiress of property in Northumberland but
doesn't identify her parents.
++++
I am not sure if the father of Lucy Willoughby (m Nicholas Carew) was the
same Sir Richard of Willoughby & Wollaton. Both the History of Parliament
biography for Lucy's son Nicholas Carew d 1432 & VCH Berks III p 418 call
Lucy 'daughter & heir of Sir Richard Willoughby of Beddington, Surrey'.
Firstly Beddington is a very long way from Wollaton & secondly Lucy was not
the heir of the Wollaton Sir Richard. That Sir Richard had a number of
sons.
If Lucy Willoughby (married Nicholas Carew) were the daughter of Sir
Richard of Wollaton then conceivably she may have been the daughter of his
first Morteyn wife - that wife d 1332. Payling calls her the daughter &
heir of Sir Roger Morteyn of Dunsby, Lincs.
Confounded?
Robert
Douglas Richardson
who married (lst) Bertram de Monboucher (died 1332), and (2nd) Richard
de Willoughby, Chief Justice of the Common Bench, was the daughter of
Guiscard de Charron, Knt. (died 1314), of Horton in Blyth,
Northumberland, Sheriff of Northumberland, 1308-9, Knight of the Shire
for Northumberland, 1311, constable of Bowes castle, justice of assize,
by his wife, Alice, daughter of Thomas, Lord Lucy of Cockermouth
[Reference: Archaeologia Aeliana, 4th Series, vol. 20 (1942), pg. 40].
Guiscard de Charron in turn was the son of an earlier Guiscard de
Charron, Knt., of Horton in Blyth, Northumberland, Sheriff of
Northumberland, 1268-72, keeper of Bowes castle, forester of Richmond,
constable of Richmond Castle, justice, by his lst wife, Isabel de
Horton, an heiress [Reference: Ibid, pg. 35].
Guiscard de Charron, the elder, in turn was the son of Guiscard de
Sabaudia, steward of Richmond, 1243, who was brother of Peter de
Sabaudia [Reference: Ibid.].
As I recall, Peter de Sabaudia is the man more commonly known as Peter
of Savoy, who was close kin to Eleanor of Provence, Queen of King Henry
III of England.
Does anyone have any additional particulars on the Charron-Savoy
families? I assume if Joan Charron was related to Peter of Savoy, she
would possess Carolingian ancestry. And, assuming Alice de Lucy was
her mother, Joan Charron would also descend from the early Scottish
kings.
All for now. Douglas Richardson
In article <1c31fd54...@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com>, Douglas
Richardson <royala...@msn.com> wrote:
> Hi Robert:
> If you study Payling's list of sources for the Willoughby
> family of Nottinghamshire, you will see that he refers to
> the following unpublished dissertation:
> M. Bloom, "The Careers of Sir Richard II de Willoughby and
> Sir Richard III de Willouighbym, Chief Justice of the
> King's Bench (1338-1340) & the Rise of the Willoughbys of
> Nottinghamshire," D. Phil. thesis, Oxford, 1985.
> I believe you will find the information on the link between
> the Somerville and Willoughby families in that source.
> Incidentally, I see that Payling states that Sir Richard
> III de Willoughby married (lst) in 1310, to Isabel Morteyn
> (died 1332); (2nd) Joan Charron, widow of Sir Bertram
> Monboucher (died 1332); and (3rd) Elizabeth, widow of
> Richard Champernoun, of Modbury, Devon.
> Any ideas as to which wife was the mother of Sir Richard's
> daughter, Lucy, who married (lst) Sir Thomas Huscarle and
> (2nd) Nicholas Carew (died 1390)? I assume it was Joan
> Charron. If so, do you have her ancestry? Payling says
> Joan was the heiress of property in Northumberland but
> doesn't identify her parents.
Sutliff
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> I assume that Joan de Charron, the heiress of lands in Northumberland,
> who married (lst) Bertram de Monboucher (died 1332), and (2nd) Richard
> de Willoughby, Chief Justice of the Common Bench, was the daughter of
> Guiscard de Charron, Knt. (died 1314), of Horton in Blyth,
> Northumberland, Sheriff of Northumberland, 1308-9, Knight of the Shire
> for Northumberland, 1311, constable of Bowes castle, justice of assize,
> by his wife, Alice, daughter of Thomas, Lord Lucy of Cockermouth
> [Reference: Archaeologia Aeliana, 4th Series, vol. 20 (1942), pg. 40].
>
> <snip>
Questions:
(1) Did you determine that Joan de Charron was mother of Lucy de Willoughby,
wife of Nicholas Carew?
(2) In the Gen-Medieval archives is a reconstruction of the Valletort family
presented by Todd Farmerie. He shows Elizabeth de Valletort, daughter of Hugh de
Valletort (d. 1310) of North Tawton, Devon and his wife Lucia le Bret, as
married to (1) Richard de Tremenet and (2) Richard II de Champernoun of Modbury.
Would this be the Elizabeth, widow of Richard de Champernoun of Modbury to which
you are referring? Richard III de Champernoun of Modbury would appear to be too
late to be a possibility and his wives Katherine Daubeney and Alice Astley are
well documented.
Best regards.
Robert O'Connor
Could you post the line from Alice de Lucy to the early Scottish Kings that
you mention.
Would also confirm that you believe that the father of Lucy Willoughby (m
Nicholas Carew) was a daughter of this Sir Richard Willoughby of Wollaton.
I have seen her father referred to as "of Beddington, Surrey".
Many thanks in advance
--
Robert O'Connor
roco...@es.co.nz
Christchurch
New Zealand
Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com> wrote in article
<0a0133f8...@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com>...
I assume that Joan de Charron, the heiress of lands in Northumberland,
who married (lst) Bertram de Monboucher (died 1332), and (2nd) Richard
de Willoughby, Chief Justice of the Common Bench, was the daughter of
Guiscard de Charron, Knt. (died 1314), of Horton in Blyth,
Northumberland, Sheriff of Northumberland, 1308-9, Knight of the Shire
for Northumberland, 1311, constable of Bowes castle, justice of assize,
by his wife, Alice, daughter of Thomas, Lord Lucy of Cockermouth
[Reference: Archaeologia Aeliana, 4th Series, vol. 20 (1942), pg. 40].
And, assuming Alice de Lucy was