1562 Venice to London
MERIKIN
Is there anyone in the whole world who has any info on BARTOLOMMEO TAGLIAFERRO
(Bartholomew Taliaferro or Taillefer in French) b. circa
1530-1540 somewhere in Italy, emigrated to London, granted immigrant
status in London on March 11, 1562? I need ancestry from Venice back....
kabo...@worldnet.att.net
MERIKIN wrote:
Bartolomeo Taliaferro was born in 1540 in Venice. I believe he was a musician. He
married Joane Lane Jan 1 1583/4 in St. Michael's, Cornhill, London. He died in
1601 and was buried Sep 22 1601 in Hart St, London.
Their son Francis (abt 1589-1647) married Bennett Haie.
Their son Robert (Nov 11 1626-1687) married Katherine Dedman and emigrated to
Gloucester County, Virginia before 1648.
Taliaferro is a fairly common Southern name (pronounced as though it were spelled
Tolliver). The "T" in Booker T. Washington stands for Taliaferro.
Bartolomeo was my 10g grandfather.
If you hear from anyone who has his ancestry, please let me know as I need it too.
Thanks.
John Steele Gordon
Nathaniel Taylor
In article <19971206010...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
mer...@aol.com (MERIKIN) wrote:
>Please note that I'm looking for his ANCESTRY; I have
>found a Vulgrim Taillefer who d. 1089 in Messina, Sicily
>after having left Angouleme, France.
Have you? This looks wrong, and anyhow it has nothing to do with the
Italo-Anglo-American family bearing a similar name as a surname centuries
later. I have seen no eleventh-century individual named "Vulgrim
Taillefer." The *Count* of Angouleme in 1089, William, was later known as
"William Taillefer" (and he lived for many years after that and died and
was buried in Germany); there were others named "Vulgrim" only centuries
earlier in the same family. However, the nickname 'Taillefer' (cognate to
'Taliaferro', meaning 'cuts iron', or less literally 'strong-arm') was
frequently assigned as a nickname in that period and not as a surname; it
was given to various unrelated individuals, and many unidentifiable people
besides (such as the fictional minstrel at Hastings in the Roman de Rou).
Nat Taylor
MERIKIN
Please note that I'm looking for his ANCESTRY; I have
found a Vulgrim Taillefer who d. 1089 in Messina, Sicily
visited northern Italy in 1787, copying the Taliaferro
crest from the ancestral home for Williamsburg friends
George and Elizabeth Taliaferro Wythe.
I have documentation to support a family connection
between the Cornwall, England branch of the family
and Bartolommeo Taliaferro from Venice, Italy.
Does anyone have access to records which may shed
light on the Taliaferros of Italy?
MERIKIN
>This looks wrong
Dear Nat, yes, I have a track of Taillefers and Taliaferros,
all well documented--in books accepted as valid by some
hereditary societies. I know what 'Talia-ferro' means,
however it became a surname well before the Normans
married into the Plantagenets c. 1150. I did make a mistake
on the date 1089 in Sicily; it should be 1189-90. I posted
a message yesterday with the same mistake--don't know
what's going on with me! My family is TAILLEFER/
TALIAFERRO all the way down to my grandmother so
this is a research project for me, and besides the reference
books, I also have old family papers.
I, also don't think that Vulgrim's travels fit an immigration
pattern; rather I'm looking at the crusades, and also the
TALIA's presence in Italy about the same time. This was
a French Division of soldiers who were in Italy to pro-
tect the French interests.
Thomas Jefferson visited northern Italy in 1787, and copied
the crest from an ancestral Taliaferro home; he did this for
friends in Williamsburg, George and Elizabeth Taliaferro
Wythe.
I would like to find:
1. Wulgrim or Vulgrim'sdescendents (if any) in Italy, and
2. Bartholomew's ancestors. (He had connections to some
Borlase-Taillefer families in Cornwall, at the time he
immigrated to London. Curiously, I've found 17th century Cornwall folks living
in London and attending the same small
church which Bartholomew attended in the 16th century.
This is long, since I hope you'll have some info or clues
which will be of help.
Susan
Nathaniel Taylor
In article <19971207181...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
mer...@aol.com (MERIKIN) wrote:
Susan,
>I know what 'Talia-ferro' means,
>however it became a surname well before the Normans
>married into the Plantagenets c. 1150.
Surnames as we know them were not used in the twelfth century. Can you
provide citations for evidence of 'Taliaferro' used as a hereditary
surname in this period? NB, 'the Normans married into the Plantagenets'
[an anachronistic surname to assign to the family of the counts of Anjou]
in 1127.
>I did make a mistake on the date 1089 in Sicily; it should be 1189-90.
William VI, nicknamed 'Taillefer', count of Angouleme (whose father was
named Vulgrim), died in Messina on 7 August 1179 (Europaische Stammtafeln
3:818). His sons dying without male issue, Angouleme passed to his
granddaughter Isabella, who married first King John of England, and later
Hugues de Lusignan; she had descendants by both husbands. There is no
relation between him and any later Italians who happened to bear the name
'Taliaferro'.
Nat Taylor
MERIKIN
>Taliaferro'.
>
>
You are much mistaken in your kind reply to my sincere
hope that you would be able to be helpful.
1. the comtes d'Anjou are on the other of the family;
I'm looking at the comtes d'Angouleme at present.
2. Surnames were in use that early; not everybody had one.
3. Vulgrim did die in Messina. His brother Aymer took the
title at that time.
4. Europaische must be mistaken.
5. Please, I know more about this family than you do. Isabel,
John, Hugues, Richard, Aymer, on and on ad nauseum.
6. I wouldn't provide you with a source or documentation if
my life depended on it.
7. You're mistaken in your belief that no connection exists
between Taillefer and Taliaferro. I have proof.
I was hoping to hear instructive things from you. Your messages
have been tinged with nastiness. I won't respond to you again.
Susan
D. Spencer Hines
1. You are very greatly mistaken in your recent message to Nathaniel
Taylor and to the group.
2. Nat is one of the soundest people here. He teaches medieval History at
both Harvard and Brown, according to my most recent information --- which
may be somewhat dated. He is a graduate of Harvard --- both undergraduate
and Ph.D. --- which is quite an accomplishment --- in History, of course, as
I understand it.
3. He was trying to help you and perhaps disabuse you of some of your
illusions [my language, not his] about the name "Taliaferro."
4. Nat is a gentleman and a scholar. I believe him to be relatively young
and vigorous as a scholar. I have full faith and confidence in the young
and vigorous, hopefully including myself. They need not be "conservative."
5. As you may know, historians often do their best work in their later
years, unlike mathematicians, physicists and chemists. It takes a great
deal of reading, thinking, experience --- and having seen a few cycles ---
to become a great Historian. Nat probably has his most productive years
before him, in the future.
6. Nat Taylor gave you excellent information, *gratis* and *pro bono
publico.*
7. If your intent in coming here is just to confirm the validity of your
own preconceptions and prejudices about certain genealogical descents and
"family lines" --- and not to learn the truth about these complex
matters --- I fear you have come to the wrong place.
[Please see continuation, infra]
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da
gloriam, propter misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V,
[1387-1422] King of England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and
chaplains --- after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every
able-bodied man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV,
Verse I]
MERIKIN wrote in message <19971208184...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>>Taliaferro'.
>>
>>
>
>You are much mistaken in your kind reply to my sincere
>hope that you would be able to be helpful.
>1. the comtes d'Anjou are on the other of the family;
> I'm looking at the comtes d'Angouleme at present.
>2. Surnames were in use that early; not everybody had one.
>3. Vulgrim did die in Messina. His brother Aymer took the
> title at that time.
Please give us your quotations and citations for #2 and #3, supra.
>4. Europaische must be mistaken.
Do you have contradictory evidence? If so, please present it.
>5. Please, I know more about this family than you do. Isabel,
> John, Hugues, Richard, Aymer, on and on ad nauseum.
What are you referring to? Is it perhaps a chart or book [or both] left you
by an ancestor?
>6. I wouldn't provide you with a source or documentation if
> my life depended on it.
Why not? That's the way genealogists, historians, scientists, attorneys and
others prove things --- by examining the evidence in a crucible of right
reason. Your case *does* depend on it.
>7. You're mistaken in your belief that no connection exists
> between Taillefer and Taliaferro. I have proof.
Please share that proof with us.
>
>I was hoping to hear instructive things from you. Your messages
>have been tinged with nastiness. I won't respond to you again.
>
Susan
Dr. Nathaniel Taylor was not nasty to you in any way. If the truth offends
you, then that is an entirely separable issue. Perhaps you are afraid of
"destroying a family tradition?"
Please continue to carry on an honest dialogue with us, including Nathaniel
Taylor, on these important issues --- don't cut and run.
Sincerely,
D. Spencer Hines
Nathaniel Taylor
In a recent article Susan <mer...@aol.com> wrote:
>I would like to find:
>1. Wulgrim or Vulgrim's descendents (if any) in Italy, and
>2. Bartholomew's ancestors ...
in a later article Susan wrote:
>I was hoping to hear instructive things from you. Your messages
>have been tinged with nastiness.
I am sorry to have come across as uninstructive and nasty. Both are
contrary to my intent. I have sought to provide two specific 'instructive
things': (1) healthy skepticism of an unlikely theory; and (2) a request
that statements made be supported with sound and publicly-presented
evidence. These are elements no medieval genealogical research can be
without. Although I can't say who Bartolomeo Taliaferro's ancestors were,
I hope I can help by saying who they were likely NOT to have been.
First, to the request about descendants of William VI Taillefer, count of
Angouleme, who died in Messina on 7 August 1179: _Europaische
Stammtafeln_ 3:818 shows no other family members living or dying in Sicily
or Italy. ES is the best tabular source for this family in this period,
drawing on all the major editions of contemporary documents from sources
connected with the counts of Angouleme, and the most exhaustive modern
study of the dynasty, Prudence Boissonade's "L'ascension, le declin et la
chute d'un grand etat feodal du Centre-Ouest: les Taillefer et les
Lusignan comtes de La Marche et d'Angouleme et leur relations avec les
Capetiens et les Plantagenet (1137-1311)," _Bulletin et Memoires de la
Societe archeologique et historique de la Charente_ (annee 1935), 5-258.
Although this is of course an argument from silence, it would be dangerous
to assume a genealogical connection based on the similarity of a nickname
four centuries apart and in different countries..
Susan wrote:
> You're mistaken in your belief that no connection exists
> between Taillefer and Taliaferro. I have proof.
I have restated why I think this connection is unlikely. If Susan is no
longer disposed to honor MY request that she support her statements with
evidence, will she not share her proof for the benefit of others (for
example, John Steele Gordon, a Taliaferro descendant)?
Susan wrote:
> [Bartolomeo Taliaferro] had connections to some
> Borlase-Taillefer families in Cornwall, at the time he
> immigrated to London. Curiously, I've found 17th century
> Cornwall folks living in London and attending the same small
> church which Bartholomew attended in the 16th century.
This information is extremely interesting, and, combined with the
information about Bartolomeo noted by Mr. Gordon, should be sifted
carefully and is far more likely to lead to gains in the Taliaferro
pedigree than pondering the twelfth-century counts of Angouleme.
Finally, I must acknowledge D. Spencer Hines' somewhat severe contribution
to this thread. While I understand the principle upon which he wrote, I
also note wryly that he has taken me (and others) to task in the past for
doing what he just did. Further, I would not have chosen to air my
academic credentials in the way in which they have now been used: the only
relevant criteria here should the presence or absence of evidence and the
promise or flaws of its interpretation, with due consideration given (and
I DO believe this) to common courtesy and collegiality in our discussions
(here I repeat: I am sorry to have had my challenge of theory, evidence,
and factual detail taken for 'nastiness'). Lastly, I should point out
(with all good will towards Brown) that I am not now nor ever have been
formally affiliated with that excellent university.
Nat Taylor
Portculis
Indeed, the statements Nat Taylor made were completely sound. If you disagree,
you should enlighten all of us by presenting your facts and conclusions with
detailed citations to original sources.
MERIKIN
>you should enlighten all of us
You know, that's not a bad idea--enlightenment. I too, am a
historian and well-educated. I think the difference might
be that I'm primarily researching hereditary lines which
can sometimes be backed up by history. I believe some
of the subscribers to this newsgroup are primarily historians
who haven't much of an interest in genealogy.
This last point is exactly why I don't wish to engage in a
contest of proving anything to unbelievers! If you are
interested in sharing information--why are there so many
comments made on this site re: pomposity and criticism?
(My paraphrase.) Frankly, even Harvard Dons need to
prove their assertions; I am in search of truth; I'm also
willing to research several ways to solve one riddle.
MERIKIN
>(Taliaferro)
This is getting tiresome; it might help you to know that
I'm not a bright-eyed amateur eager to claim some lines
as my own. I do methodical research, and I have a knack
for picking out clues (Borlase) that often lead me somewhere.
I have been able to provide sufficient documentation to
obtain memberships in two hereditary societies, and am
waiting to hear on a third (Magna Charta).
I have been in St. Olave's Church in London, where al
these folks ended up. I have a theory re: the Italian
emigrant to London. I have yet to prove or disprove this
theory; that's my current mission. I might have felt more
willing to "share" had I not felt discounted by a couple of responses. I'm
more inclined to prove who I am to a
genealogist than to this group.
Happy to assist anyone who asks.
Nathaniel Taylor
Merikin wrote:
> I think the difference might be that I'm primarily researching
> hereditary lines which can sometimes be backed up by history.
Any 'hereditary lines' which CAN'T be 'backed up by history' (that is,
supported according to accepted standards of historical evidence) are
fantasies, forgeries, or, at best, fruitless conjecture.
> ... I don't wish to engage in a contest of proving anything to
> unbelievers!
This implies a basically medieval concept, 'credere ut intellegere': one
must believe in order to understand (usually applied to doctrine, not
genealogy). Much as we all may be interested in medieval people, we
should not employ their standards about what proves a theory.
Nat Taylor
MERIKIN
FYI to those following the postings of this newsgroup:
Since so many people lived and died w/o making a
mark on historical events, it is a coup to find additional confirmation for
their existence in a historical account.
Many family legends are born of wishful thinking, and
some are supported by fact. Of course, if you knew
nothing about history, it would be difficult to find the
sources you need in the first place.
One thing I've learned is not to engage in futile attempts
to convince others; this almost always ends up in a right-
wrong scenario. My goal is to support and document
my trail of research--if I find a valid source, I don't
worry about convincing anyone. If there isn't a source
then I look for other clues.
D. Spencer Hines
If one has "valid sources" for a given line of ascent or descent --- then
there is no need to keep them secret.
The only way to validate the ascent or descent is to show it to others who
know the terrain and see if they find the proof convincing --- that's what
serious scholars and other serious folks do.
Last year, some relatives pressed me very hard to validate an ascent to
James IV [1473-1513] King of Scotland through Captain Alexander Fleming
[c.1612-1668] of Virginia. Hundreds of thousands of people seem to think
this is a valid ascent. Certainly both James IV and Captain Alexander
Fleming were real people, but I could not find a solid genealogical
connection between the two men.
Some of the relatives were outraged that I was a non-believer and would
"deliberately set out to destroy this cherished family tradition."
I've yet to see any convincing proof that Captain Alexander Fleming was a
descendant of King James IV of Scotland. Folks here at SGM and at other WWW
sites were quite helpful in probing this "enigma" --- for which I'm
grateful. Some of the wounds with relatives are still unhealed --- but I'd
rather have the truth, rather than a fantasy, in my database.
Others' Mileage May Vary. I certainly don't set out to confirm my
preconceptions or "trail of research" but to submit it to the most rigorous,
hostile [**yes, hostile**] and penetrating critique possible --- and that
always involves showing to others more experienced than I --- for a vetting.
My rule of thumb is that I want a level of confidence in the alleged
genealogical connection that I'd not be embarrassed if it appeared on the
front page of the Sunday New York Times, above the fold.
Lux et Veritas.
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da
gloriam, propter misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V,
[1387-1422] King of England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and
chaplains --- after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every
able-bodied man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV,
Verse I]
MERIKIN wrote in message <19971214201...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
nancy.bo...@gmail.com
On Saturday, December 6, 1997 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-6, MERIKIN wrote:
> Please note that I'm looking for his ANCESTRY; I have
> found a Vulgrim Taillefer who d. 1089 in Messina, Sicily
> crest from the ancestral home for Williamsburg friends
>
sophia...@gmail.com
> Is there anyone in the whole world who has any info on BARTOLOMMEO TAGLIAFERRO
> (Bartholomew Taliaferro or Taillefer in French) b. circa
> 1530-1540 somewhere in Italy, emigrated to London, granted immigrant
> status in London on March 11, 1562? I need ancestry from Venice back....
My father recently died and I decided to look into his ancestry as he never talked about it. Thanks to America's excellent censuses, I have rather easily (though it did take hours and hours) traced 14 grandparents back to Luigi Tagliaferri and Maria Necchi in Venice. All of which I am sure you know about and their descendants.
The weirdest thing is that I am half English half American and married to a Venetian. I was a musician as it seems the Tagliaferri (Taliaferros) were, and I have been going to Venice for 2 months a year since I was 2 years old. I then moved to Italy as soon as I was old enough and returned to London this year to start a family.
To discover this Italian and English heritage has given me great comfort in this time of grief and I would love to hear other stories of my 'kin' across the USA, particularly if anyone else found their way back to Italy without knowing it was a part of their past?
I thought it was also interesting to note that John Ranger Taliaferro's wife Sarah Smith's Great Grandfather was also the Great Great Great Grandfather of George Washington.
Hope to hear nice stories!
Sophia (My mum has no Italian heritage but loved the name)
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Samuel Taliaferro [pronounced Tolliver] Rayburn - [1882-1961] Speaker of
the U. S. House of Representatives -- "Mr. Sam" -- Very Highly Respected
Politician
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Rayburn
By Herbert Spangler March 08, 2001 at 07:35:02
In reply to: Samuel T. Rayburn - Speaker of the House 2/27/01
"Samuel T. Rayburn was the son of William Marion Rayburn and Martha
Clementine Waller. Martha's favorite sister, Eliza, married Samuel
Taliaferro of Roane County and they moved to Indian Territory (Oklahoma).
Martha named Samuel Taliaferro Rayburn in honor of this marriage."
D. Spencer Hines
Kailua, Hawaii
Audentes Deus Ipse Juvat
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