Re: Neville of Scotton / Cauntelo / Ros of Ingmanthorpe / de la Haye of Arli...

[WJho...@aol.com]

In a message dated 11/23/2009 1:13:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
woo...@msn.com writes:

Eustachia Trian de Neville, widowed bef 1220, then married Ralph de la
Haye (d Jun 1254). She died aft 1246.>>

I'm not sure where you get the "bef 1220".
All I saw was that Robert was living in 1214 and Eustache married secondly
Ralph de la Haye and was *presumably* the mother of his heir John "aged 30"
in 1254.

I think those are the boundaries.
But someone can tell me if that's not right. John would then be born
1223/5 -ish remembering that "30" might be a round number. So that Robert
could be living as late as 1224 I suppose.

Will

[CE Wood]

From the the cited John Ravilious' post:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-12/1165066263

1.1.1 Robert de Nevill
----------------------------------------
Death:bef 22 Jan 1220[3]

of Scotton, co. Lincs.

CE Wood

On Nov 23, 9:37 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 11/23/2009 1:13:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,  
>

[John P. Ravilious]

On Nov 24, 1:45 am, CE Wood <wood...@msn.com> wrote:
> From the the cited John Ravilious' post:http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-12/11...

>
>  1.1.1 Robert de Nevill
> ----------------------------------------
> Death:bef 22 Jan 1220[3]
>
> of Scotton, co. Lincs.
>
> CE Wood
>
> On Nov 23, 9:37 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > In a message dated 11/23/2009 1:13:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,  
>
> > wood...@msn.com writes:
>
> > Eustachia Trian de Neville, widowed bef 1220, then married Ralph de  la
> > Haye (d Jun 1254).  She died aft  1246.>>
>
> > I'm not sure where you get the "bef 1220".
> > All I saw was that Robert was living in 1214 and Eustache married secondly  
> > Ralph de la Haye and was *presumably* the mother of his heir John "aged 30"
> > in  1254.
>
> > I think those are the boundaries.
> > But someone can tell me if that's not right.  John would then be born  
> > 1223/5 -ish remembering that "30" might be a round number.  So that Robert  
> > could be living as late as 1224 I suppose.
>

> > Will- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

---------------------------

Tuesday, 24 November, 2009

Dear CE,

The date range for the death of Robert de Nevill appears to be
'between 1214 and 22 Jan 1220/21'. A note from Farrer stated, 'On 22
January, 1221, the king granted, until he [the King] attained his
majority, to Ralph de Nevill of "Scottun" a weekly market on Friady at
Ralph's manor of Filey (Fislei) with a mandate to the sheriff of
York.' [1]

A partial pedigree for Nevill(e) of Scotton currently looks like
this:

Arnold de Percy
of Kildale
I
I
Ralph de Nevill = Hawise [2]
__________________I____
I I
Geoffrey Ralph
dsp bef 1189 d. bef 1212 [3]
I
_____________I
I
1) Sir Robert = Eustache = 2) Ralph
d. bef 22 I Trian I de la Haye
Jan 1220/1 I I_______
___I I
I V
Sir Philip de Nevill
d. 9 Apr 1273 [4]
______________I______
I I
Joan 2) Sir Robert = Angharad = 1) William
= Sir John d. aft I ferch I le Boteler
Hardreshull 28 Nov 1293 I Gruffydd I (heir of
I I I Wemme)
V V V

Hope this is of use.

Cheers,

John

Notes

[1] Farrer, Early Yorkshire Charters II:464

[2] CP IX:476

[3] CP, ibid.; also Dugdale, Mon. Anglicanum VI(1):288, Num. XIV

[4] Cal. Genealogicum I:433, no. 103; CIPM II:499, no. 818

[CE Wood]

Thank you so much! So where does the other Ralph (d 1243) fit in -
the one who used to be shown as Philip's father?

CE Wood

[wjho...@aol.com]

What is the name, Latin or English, or the writ that the king serves or has served just when someone has died and might be holding lands in chief? I don't mean the IPM, but rather the writ before that to "seize the lands of so and so" what's that called?

Will

[John P. Ravilious]

> >  [4] Cal. Genealogicum I:433, no. 103; CIPM II:499, no. 818- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

-------------------------

Dear CE,

The only reasonable explanation, given that Philip has been shown
to have been the son of Robert, is that this 'extra' Ralph was an
elder son of Robert and brother of Philip, whom Philip succeeded in or
before 1243 [Farrer, Early Yorkshire Charters, II:463 gives the
succession, but not the parentage, 1189-1243].

Cheers,

John

[CE Wood]

Many thanks! As always, you have been most gracious with your help.

CE Wood

[Chris Pitt Lewis]

In message <mailman.471.12590999...@rootsweb.com>,
wjho...@aol.com writes

Writ of diem clausit extremum ("he has closed his final day").
--
Chris Pitt Lewis

[Paul Mackenzie]

wjho...@aol.com wrote:
> What is the name, Latin or English, or the writ that the king serves or has served just when someone has died and might be holding lands in chief? I don't mean the IPM, but rather the writ before that to "seize the lands of so and so" what's that called?
>
> Will
>
>

There are a number of different writs that can be issued for a IPM
depending upon the circumstances. Usually a "writ diem clausit
extremum" is issued.

For a discussion on these writs and the royal prerogative see

The royal prerogative and the learning of the Inns of Court
By Margaret McGlynn

[wjho...@aol.com]

Thanks Paul. I should have mentioned the other day that I did find for what I was looking.
The writ diem clausit extremum was the one. Because I've been wading through the York IPM Volumes that I threw up on Knol a while back.

I can almost figure out what the Latin phrase means just from knowing a bit of Spanish and a few Latin phrases, "carpe diem" so the first word is "day". Extremum sounds like the final ending, the extreme point, the last thing.... So so far it seems to be something like "last day".

I think there's an online definition that gives "day of final closing"... or something like that. At least it makes some sense. Final reckoning? But it's not the day the person died necessarily, is that correct? It's more like the day the King issues *that* an accounting should be made.

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[Matt Tompkins]

On 1 Dec, 02:00, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
>  Thanks Paul.  I should have mentioned the other day that I did find for what I was looking.
> The writ diem clausit extremum was the one.  Because I've been wading through the York IPM Volumes that I threw up on Knol a while back.
>
> I can almost figure out what the Latin phrase means just from knowing a bit of Spanish and a few Latin phrases, "carpe diem" so the first word is "day".  Extremum sounds like the final ending, the extreme point, the last thing.... So so far it seems to be something like "last day".
>
> I think there's an online definition that gives "day of final closing"... or something like that.  At least it makes some sense.  Final reckoning?  But it's not the day the person died necessarily, is that correct?  It's more like the day the King issues *that* an accounting should be made.

As Chris Pitt-Lewis said, it means 'he closed his last day', a
euphemism for 'he has died' commonly used in medieval records of other
sorts than just IPMs (it often appears in manor court rolls, for
example, when the death of a tenant of the manor is recorded). The
writ was called a writ of diem clausit extremum because it began with
a statement to the effect that 'we have been informed that X has died
(diem clausit extremum) ...'

This is explained, and the various other types of writ used to trigger
IPMs discussed, in the introduction to the Calendar of IPMs, Henry
VII, vol. 1, 1485-97.

I'm not sure whether writs of extent were normally used to trigger
IPMs. At a later date they were orders to identify and seize the
assets of Crown debtors, both living and dead, and certainly did not
trigger IPMs. However right back in 1242, when those writs of extent
concerning William de Albini were issued, the IPM system was still
developing and it may be that at such an early date what would later
be called a writ of diem clausit extremum (or one of the other IPM
writs) was called a writ of extent.

Matt Tompkins