Re: Eylesford and Boulewas/Buildwas: also Sir Thomas BARRE
WJho...@aol.com
Millerf...@aol.com writes:
<< The Hampshire Record Office preserves a file 1M53 (Coventry of Burgate),
which identifies Sir Thomas' mother as a sister of Sir Richard Pembrugge
(d.1375), and shows that Sir Thomas became entitled to a share of the
manor of Burgate and the hundred of Fordingbridge as coheir of Sir Richard's
son Henry.
MM >>
Thanks for finding the CPR confirmation that Sir Thomas Barre was indeed of
very great age when he died in 1419
Is it possible this Richard Pembrugge and his sister may also be siblings to
Juliana Pembrugge wife of Richard de Vernon d 1377 ?
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
WJho...@aol.com wrote:
> Is it possible this Richard Pembrugge and his sister may also be siblings to
> Juliana Pembrugge wife of Richard de Vernon d 1377 ?
Juliana was the sole heiress in her issue, so no- there seem to be
three separate Pembrugge/ Pembridge strands, which may well be
connected somehow- Juliana's line, of Tong; Sir Richard's line, of
Clehonger and Newland; and the John de P whose daughter Alice (d.1415)
married de la Bere, Oldcastle and Merbury.
-Matthew
Millerf...@aol.com
and his sister (mother of Sir Thomas Barre) may also be siblings to
Juliana Pembrugge wife of Richard de Vernon d 1377.
http://www.todmar.net/ancestry/vernon_main.htm
gives the following:-
"04. Sir Richard Vernon, son of William and Margaret,
" of Haddon, Derbyshire, and Harlaston, Staffordshire,
" died 8 Sept. 1376. He married Juliana De Pembrugge
" (of Pembridge, of Carolingian descent), who was aged
"60 in 1409, and died in 1410. In 1377 she made a vow
"of chastity before Robert, the Bishop of Coventry and
"Lichfield. On returning home with the king's license,
"she was assaulted and wounded by William Bagot and
"others, and imprisoned first at Paulerspury in
"Northamptonshire and then Warwick Castle. In 1409 she
"was heir to her brother, Sir Fulk Pembridge, inheriting
"the castle and lordship of Tong in Shropshire and
"Aylestone in Leicestershire.
I believe that the author of this is called Tod Marshall.
The only source he mentions is "Medieval English
Ancestors of Robert Abell"(author unidentified), but his
work seems thorough to me. But I have no personal
knowledge of the Pembridge/family, so can't offer any
opinion on the question raised by Will.
MM
Gordon and Jane Kirkemo
of the book about Robert Abell's ancestry is Carl Boyer who occasionally
posts to the group. He also published a companion book titled "Medieval
English Ancestors of Certain Americans." This book takes some of the Abell
lines further back.
Regarding Pembrugge, Boyer provides the following under the heading of "de
Pembrugge of Clehonger and Tong" (page 192):
"1. Sir Henry de Pembridge, of Pembridge, Herefordshire, was of record in
1235 and 1254.
He was of a family which had distinguished itself for anti-Royalist
sentiment.
In 1235 Henry de Pembrugge, according to the Testa de Nevill [Eyton, Ant.
Shropshire, 2:225], held almost two knight's fees at Weston and Woneston in
Gloucestershire of the Honour of Cormeilles. About 1243 Henry was found
holding Pembridge in Stretford Hundred, Herefordshire, of the Honour of
Radnor, by one knight's fee. In 1248 he had a charter of free-warren at
Weston.
On 10 May 1254 he paid a fine of one hundred marks to have custody of the
lands of Lucia and Euphemia de Gamages, and their marriages for his two
sons.
Children, listed by Eyton [2:226] and Norr [95]:
i. Henry, b. c.1218; d. c. Jan. 1272; m. before 20 April 1254 [Eyton,
4:149] Elizabeth de Gamage.
ii. William, b. c.1220; l.1263; m. Eufemia de Gamage, dau. and coheir
of Godfrey de Gamage.
iii. Richard."
In addition to the above description, Mr. Boyer provides the following
introduction:
"This line was originally based on Weis' Ancestral Roots, Line 7, and was
substantially expanded with material from Eyton's Antiquities of Shropshire.
According to Norr [95] the line may begin with Henry Pembridge, who had a
charter from King Henry I, and who had a daughter Sybil, who married Simon
de la Bere, and son Walter, who was born in 1108. In turn Walter had a
daughter Eleanor, who married Eustace Cecil, and a son Sir Richard, who
settled at Welsh Newton early in the thirteenth century and had sons Sir
Henry (born about 1192), Sir John (born about 1196) and Sir Fulk (born about
1200)."
I believe the Norr reference is to "Some Early English Pedigrees" by Vernon
M. Norr.
I hope this information is helpful to your discussion, and I wonder if
anything further is known regarding the ancestry of Sir John Pembridge,
father of Alice (wife of John Merbury)?
Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo
WJho...@aol.com
Will
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
This thread prompted me to have another look at various Pembrugge
materials and suddenly it all seemed to fit together a bit better, so
I'll post my theories here (split over a few posts). Firstly, the
earlier generations- I'm not familiar with Norr's work, but that
pedigree (see at bottom) seems a bit suspicious and I don't think the
facts support it- for instance, there were definitely a couple of
Ralphs, and I haven't seen the name Fulk appear in the family that
early.
The family takes its name from the village, now spelled Pembridge, in
the north of Herefordshire; perhaps confusingly, they later gave their
name to a castle at Newland near Welsh Newton in the south of the
county. (The name appears spelt in many different ways, I'll use 'de P'
to save time unless directly quoting a source.)
[At Domesday, Pembridge was held by Alfred of Marlborough, whose other
possessions in Herefordshire included Monnington and Burghill, which
would also be future Pembridge connections.]
A Ralph de P was apparently a witness to a grant of Philip de Braose,
of Bramber and Radnor, conjecturally in the period 1094-1120 [1]. The
Braose family and their successors were overlords of the family in
several manors over time, so this Ralph may reasonably be ancestor of
the family. The (seemingly) unbroken line begins with:
1. Henry de P held land at Winstone, Glos in 1177/8 [2]; five knight's
fees in Herefordshire 1203 [1]; died 1211 [1].
2. Ralph, son of Henry, fined with king John for possession of his
father's lands 1211 [1]. In 1213 he was in dispute with Aubreye Marmion
re: Weston, Glos [now Weston Subedge] [3]. The lands of Ralph and Henry
de P at Winstone were placed in the custody of William de Cauntelo in
1216, Henry 'being with the king's enemies' [2]. Ralph is thought to
have been dead by 1221 [1] or 1219 [4].
3. The Henry of 1216, presumably Ralph's heir, allegedly held Newland
and Clehonger 1219[4]. He was holding Pembridge at the time of the
death of William de Braose in 1230 [1]. In 1236 he was mentioned as
holding at Weston and Winstone of Hugh Giffard and the honour of
Cormeilles[2, 3, 5]. 4th June 1239 he had a grant from Henry III for a
market and fair at Pembridge [6], and there is a 1240 charter from him
to the burgesses of that place[7]. Henry held Pembridge for one fee
c.1243 [5].
[It seems unlikely that a man active in 1216 was finding brides for his
sons in 1254, so there are perhaps two Henrys in succession here (to be
followed by more). However, there is always the possibility that he had
his sons by a later marriage, as nothing appears known of any wife or
wives. If indeed two Henrys, it may not be clear where one ends and the
other starts. Eyton begins his pedigree with Henry in 1235 and 1254.]
3/4. Henry de P fined to have custody of Lucia and Euphemia de Gamages
and their marriages for his two sons, 10th May 1254 [5].
I'll follow the line set out by Eyton in the next post. Here is the
pedigree from Norr for comparison:
Gordon Kirkemo wrote:
> Mr. Boyer provides the following
> introduction:
> [snip]
>
> "According to Norr [95] the line may begin with Henry Pembridge, who had a
> charter from King Henry I, and who had a daughter Sybil, who married Simon
> de la Bere, and son Walter, who was born in 1108. In turn Walter had a
> daughter Eleanor, who married Eustace Cecil, and a son Sir Richard, who
> settled at Welsh Newton early in the thirteenth century and had sons Sir
> Henry (born about 1192), Sir John (born about 1196) and Sir Fulk (born about
> 1200)."
>
> I believe the Norr reference is to "Some Early English Pedigrees" by Vernon
> M. Norr.
Unplaced during this period is Sir William, who apparently founded a
Franciscan friary in Hereford in 1228- see
www.smr.herefordshire.gov.uk/db.php?smr_no=450
[1] see essay at www.castles99.ukprint.com/Essays/pembridge.html
[2] VCH Glos XI 147-8, online at www.british-history.ac.uk/
[3] summarised in post by Chris Phillips, 1st Nov 2003: see
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2003-11/1007719525
[4] Pedigree at p.193 of 'the House of Cornewall' by Compton Reade and
the Earl of Liverpool, 1908, apparently based on Rev CJ Robinson's
'History of the Mansions and Manors of Herefordshire' (1872). The
pedigree evidently amalgamates several Henrys.
[5] Post by Gordon Kirkemo, 1 Nov 2006, quoting Boyer citing Eyton etc.
[6]www.history.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/herefs.html#Pem
[7] see www.archenfield.com/pembridge.htm
Matthew
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
the possible uncertainty over the number of Henrys, I'll reset the
clock to one starting with the 1254 Henry. A Henry de P was replaced as
escheator for Worcs 4 May 1251[1], but it's probably reading too much
to suppose that represents the death of the elder Henry.
1. Henry de P 1254 fined to have marriages of Lucia and Euphemia de
Gamages for his two sons. [Lucia may have died, as it was Elizabeth de
Gamages who was married to the elder son. They were daughters and
coheiresses of Godfrey de Gamages who died bef 2 Oct 1253, leaving them
as minors]. Henry de P was sheriff of Hereford 1255 [1]. He was also
apparently known as Henry de 'Clehongre' from his manor at Clehonger
[2]. He had:
2a. Henry, see below
2b. William, who married Euphemia de Gamages and thereby had the
manor of Little Dymock or Gamage Hall in Dymock, Glos, as well as
interests in Mansell Gamage and Westbury. William d.1317; for his line
see the draft VCH account of Little Dymock at
www.gloucestershirepast.net/ under 'Online text: Dymock', then
'manors'.
2a. Henry de P married Elizabeth De Gamages and thereby acquired
interests in Burghill, Herefs. and other places, including a claim to
Boughrood castle in Radnor (Powys). He also had the manor of Castle
Leigh at Leigh in Worcs. [2]. He was a supporter of de Montfort and
forfeited much as a result- Castle Leigh to Matthew de Gamages [2]
(apparently his wife's uncle), Winstone (and Weston?) to John Giffard
[3], and presumably the relevant Herefordshire estates to the lordship
of Radnor, Henry and his family being imprisoned at Wigmore[1]. This
Henry is said to have died circa January 1272, leaving Elizabeth as his
widow [4], perhaps holding Winstone in dower [3]. They had:
3a. Henry, see below
3b. Godfrey, occurs 1267 [4]
3a. Henry de P, the son and heir, failed to regain Pembridge in 1267
[1] but was admitted to king's peace 1268 [3] and recovered lands by
Dictum of Kenilworth 1272. He was presumably born 1255 or soon after so
would have been a minor during all this (unless there is more Henry
confusion here). His wife was Orabel (and variants thereof), daughter
of William de Harcourt [5], who brought him the manors and advowsons of
Tong, Salop and Aylestone, Leics. They were married by 26 Dec 1271 when
they had a grant from Henry III for a market and fair at Tong [5].
Orabel apparently died somewhat young leaving a son,
4a. Fulk, see below.
as Henry, who died Jan 16 1279 [4] holding manors including Tong and
Gillow [6], seems to have left a widow Alice, living 1282 and 1300 [4],
apparently mother of a younger son,
4b. Henry [4]
4a. Fulk de P, born c.1272 (aged 7 in 1279/80 [5]), married to Isabel
[4,5], and died in his twenties, like his father- IPM 20 June 1296 [5]
with lands in Wilts, Leics, Heref. and Salop. He had held Castle Leigh
in 1282 [2]; and Gillow, Hentland,Herefs. at his death [6]. His wife
Isabel survived him [4]. Their son was:
5. Fulk de P, born Aug 27 1291 [4] or aged 5 on 25 Aug 1296 [5], died
Jan 8 1326 [4], IPM 21 Jan 1296 [5]. Will 11 Nov 1325, pr. 26 Jan
1325/6 [7]. Married Maud [7], said to have been a de Bermingham [4]
(Henry de Bermingham was an executor of his will) [7]. Maud survived
him and remarried by 1333 to Robert Corbet of Hadley, with issue [4].
Fulk and Maud had issue:
6a. Fulk, b. Nov 30 1310 [4,5], married Alice, natural daughter of
Peter de Montfort, and died 1333-45 [4,5] sps. Peter de Montfort had a
life grant of Castle Leigh, with remainder to Alice for her life,
remainder to Robert de P, 1344-5 [2], by which time Alice had remarried
to Ralph Nowers [5]/ Richard le Noners [2].
6b. Robert, see below
6c. William [7]
6d. Payn [7]
(? Alice his dau, mentioned in will [7]- or does this mean his
daughter-in-law Alice Montfort?)
6b. Robert de P, had reversion of Castle Leigh 1344-5 [2], died 1350-64
[5]. Said to have m. Juliana Zouch [5], although this may be confusion
with Zouche descent of his great-grandmother. He had:
7a. Fulk, inherited lands including Tong, Aylestone, Gillow and a
claim to the advowson of Weston Subedge. He was MP for Salop 1397,
married twice but dsp 24 May 1409. For full details see [8].
7b. Juliana, below
7b. Juliana, married Sir Richard de Vernon of Haddon, Derbs, etc, who
died Sept 1376. She was aged 60, 1409 and died 1410. With Vernon she
had issue:
8a. Richard, dvm 1400, a quo Vernons of Haddon etc.
9a. William, had Ullingswick, Heref. for life at the time of Sir
Fulk's IPM, remainderman after brother Richard's issue.
I'll move on to the other branches probably tomorrow.
[1] Essay at www.castles99.ukprint.com/Essays/pembridge.html
[2] VCH Worcs IV 101-11, online at www.british-history.ac.uk/
[3] VCH Glos XI 147-8, online as above.
[4] Eyton, Antiquities of Shropshire ii 226
[5] Farnham, Leicestershire Medieval Pedigrees (1925), p.7
[6] www.wyevalleyhistory.net/Settlements%20-%20pembridge.htm
[7] His will in British Library online MSS catalogue, StoweCh 622
[8] HoP Commons 1386-1421 iv 44-6
-Matthew
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
[3] summarised in post by Chris Phillips, 1st Nov 2003: see
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2003-11/1067719525
[7] see www.archenfield.com/Pembridge.htm
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
> [6] www.wyevalleyhistory.net/Settlements%20-%20pembridge.htm
And that should read:
www.wyevalleyhistory.net/Settlements%20-%20Gillow.htm
I can see how my mind was (or wasn't) working...
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
previous posts: firstly, Gordon Kirkemo has kindly passed on a
reference from Domesday Descendants 628-9, an entry for "de Penbrugge,
Radulf" who "attested a charter of Hugh I de Lacy of Weobley in 1100".
This would tie in well with the estimated date of Ralph de P witnessing
the Braose charter.
A couple of references that slipped my mind yesterday- a 'Henry de
Penbruge' appears on the list of sheriffs and bailiffs of Glamorgan and
Morganwg at www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=48213#s25
c.1200, and may be the Henry who d.1211.
The Henry who d.1279 was apparently a kinsman of Robert Burnell, bishop
of Bath and Wells- see Douglas Richardson's post of 30 Mar 1999 at
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/1999-03/0922762976
While in this general time period, a mention of the Baskerville
genealogy- many of the Baskerville trees give the marriage of Walter
Baskerville of Eardisley to Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Richard
Pembrugge (eg Robinson's 'Mansions and Manors of Herefordshire', 'House
of Cornewall'), their son Walter living 1272. This appears to be
erroneous and presumably derives from a visitation or similar-type
pedigree of later date. The invaluable article by Bruce
Coplestone-Crow, 'The Baskervilles of Herefordshire, 1086-1300' (Trans.
Woolhope Naturalists Field Club XLIII, 1979, pp18-39) identifies the
wife of this Walter as Isolda, daughter of Walter Biset. Walter
Baskerville died young in 1212 and Isolda had remarried a Pantulf by
1216. (Their son Walter d.1244, and the 1272 reference is actually for
the next generation down.)
Another error I might as well recap. is the sister given to Robert P of
Tong, said to have married Ralph de Lingen and been mother of Isabel
who married Sir Fulk Pembrugge (and had descendants via another of her
3 husbands, John Ludlow). Everybody with an interest here probably
already knows that Margery was in fact a Cheyne, and that a first
cousin marriage was unthinkable anyway (we've also now seen that there
was no Margery in her supposed father's will).
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
in Compton Reade and Earl of Liverpool's 'The House of Cornewall'
(1908) p.193 [apparently following Robinson's Mansions and Manors of
Herefordshire, which seems to now be on Google Books] as going:
Ralph of Pembridge and Newland c.1200, dcd 1219
Henry 1219 of Newland and Clehonger
Henry of Newland and Clehonger 13EI, 1284-5
Henry sp; & Richard, founded Chantry in Clehonger, dcd 1346=Petronilla
fl 1336, had
Sir Richard KG, et al.
The first Ralph and Henry's dates match fine with the pair briefly
deprived of lands in 1216. However, as we've seen there to be an
unbroken succession of Henrys afterwards, one alive 1284-5 can only be
the younger son of Henry who d.1279, meaning that the pedigree above
has amalgamated four or five Henrys into just two.
A reminder of the place of the younger Henry:
This Henry evidently succeeded to Winstone, Glos by 1298, sold some
land there to Hugh Despenser in 1303 and the whole manor in 1310 to
Geoffrey de Pulham who then sold it to Despenser [3] (records relating
to this are in the National Archives online catalogue: E/943, E40/948,
E42/35). Despenser was a neighbour and this seems to have been part of
their general acquisition of lands.
If this Henry is the ancestor of the Clehonger branch, he may be the
'Henry of Penbrugge' who is named as a knight of William de Braose in
the latter's petition of 1317-20 in the
National Archives, SC8/204/10172, as several of the Herefordshire
manors were held of the Braoses. It may have been that as Fulk was to
inherit Tong and Aylestone from his mother, the younger son had several
of the paternal possessions.
The son of this Henry given in the truncated pedigree, another Henry
who dsp, may be a further confusion, or alternatively perhaps he was
the 'Henry de Penebrugge' who is appointed in a charter of Jan 6, 1359
along with Thomas de la Barre (who would then be his brother-in-law)
(NA, E156/28/44). However, there was a contemporary Henry (d.1362) in
the collateral line at Dymock (see link in text above to the draft
Dymock history).
Whether or not the younger Henry existed (and if he was the 1359 one,
he was presumably a younger son, as Richard had Clehonger), a Richard
seems to have succeeded to Clehonger by 1321/2 as he is named in a list
of 'contrariants', with Clehonger and Monnington (also in Herefs.) his
late possessions (National Archives, SC6/1145/6, also SC6/114516).
Richard was MP for Heref. in Sept.1337 and Feb 1337/8; he endowed the
chantry chapel at Clehonger April 1342 (NA, C143/258/20) and died
1345/6, MI at Clehonger [7]. He married Petronilla who is said to have
d. 1348 and to have a separate MI in the same place [8]; however, there
is a fine of 'Pernel de Penbrigge' of 1367 [9] and a reference to
'Petronella de Penebrugge' having an MI at Monnington [10]; or perhaps
this was an unmarried daughter.
Richard had issue:
a. Sir Richard, c.1320-1375, who was at Crecy 1346 and Poitiers 1356,
KG 1368. He acquired further possessions including Wadley, Berks, Ayot
St Lawrence, Herts, and Burgate and Fordingbridge, Hants. He was
briefly married (after 1360, when her previous husband died) to
Elizabeth (d.16 Sept 1362), widow of Edmund Lord St John and of Gerard
Lord Lisle. They had one son, Henry, who died 5 Oct 1375 still a minor.
Sir Richard died earlier that year, 26 July 1375 [7, 11].
b. Amice (Amy), dead by 1375, married Sir John Burley KG, had issue at
least Sir Richard Burley KG, and William; (? also Elizabeth who married
Sir John Hopton, a quo Corbet of Moreton C.?). The Burleys inherited
Fordingbridge etc.
c. Hawise, also dcd 1375, married Sir Thomas de la Barre and had Sir
Thomas, who inherited Ayot St Lawrence and Clehonger (a quo Cornewall
etc.)
>
> [1] Essay at www.castles99.ukprint.com/Essays/pembridge.html
> [2] VCH Worcs IV 101-11, online at www.british-history.ac.uk/
> [3] VCH Glos XI 147-8, online as above.
> [4] Eyton, Antiquities of Shropshire ii 226
> [5] Farnham, Leicestershire Medieval Pedigrees (1925), p.7
> [6] www.wyevalleyhistory.net/Settlements%20-%20pembridge.htm
[7] ODNB entry for Sir Richard Pembridge (d.1375)
[8] www.plantaganet.org.uk/ladies%20bios/marie%20pembridge.htm
[9] available via Chris Phillips' site www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk
[10] www.rootsweb.com/~ukhfhs/mip.html
[11] VCH Herts III 59-63, available at www.british-history.ac.uk
-Matthew
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
give the following Pembridge information:
1. Sir John Pembridge of Pembridge=Elizabeth, had:
2. Alice, daughter and heiress, d.1415=(1) Edmund de la Bere, (2)
Thomas Oldcastle of Eyton MP d.1398/9, (3) John Merbury of Weobley MP
d.1438 (as his first wife). Alice had issue:
3a. Richard Oldcastle dsp 1421
3b. Wintelan (Gwenllian, aka Joan) Oldcastle b.1392= Sir Robert Whitney
of Whitney MP (d.1443), with issue.
3c. Isabel= Walter Hackluyt, with issue.
3d. Elizabeth Merbury, d&h of John,=Sir Walter Devereux of Bodenham
(1411-1459), with issue.
There seem to be a lot of pedigrees online giving John P's father as
Ralph, and indeed he's given that paternity in the collection of
Herefordshire pedigrees in Harl. MSS 1140 in the British Library (but
the line is not taken further back). It looks as though the father was
not Ralph though, so perhaps this is yet another memory of the earlier
Ralphs.
There's a useful document on Chris Phillips' site at
www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_83_49.shtml#28
dated 1385, which involves Thomas Oldcastle and Alice his wife and
mentions "Elizabeth who was the wife of John Penbrugge kt" holding
lands for life. This tells us that John was dead by then and confirms
his wife's name as Elizabeth; also that Alice was on her second
marriage by that date. The places mentioned are the manors of "Boghrade
and Treweryn" and lands in "Eton', Boghrade and Borghulle".
This ties in neatly with something in the National Archives
(C143/315/17):
"John son of Edward de Penebrugge to settle the manors of Bouthrede and
Eaton [in Leominster] on himself, Elzabeth his wife and his heirs,
retaining the manor of Burghill. Hereford. 28 EIII" (1354-5). The
continuity of place and wife suggest this is the same John as above, so
he is son of an Edward.
[There is a mention in E101/508/24 of "John de Penebrugge" farming
Alverington, Glos, 30EIII but no way of knowing if it's the same man;
not clear either where Alverington is/was.]
"Edward de Penbrigg" had a grant from Edward III for a market and fair
at Boughrood, 5 Oct 1335 (see www.history.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/wales.html#Bou
)
An "Edward de Penebrugge" seems to have held land in
Westbury-on-Severn, Glos. in 1349 at the death of Nicholas de Gamage
(see www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=15766 ).
There is an earlier record of Edward de P with a brother called John
(NA, C/143/36/7): John de Penebrugge to grant a rent in Meon, which he
holds of the king in chief, to Edward his brother, retaining rent
there. Glouc. 29EI (1300-1). This seems to connect with C/143/133/3:
Fulk de Penbrugge to retain the manor of Mune acquired by him from John
de Penbrugge. Glouc. 11EII (1317-8). This Fulk is presumably the one
with dates 1291-1326. Again I'm not sure where Meon/Mune is if it's in
Glos, there is a Meon Valley elsewhere though.
This earlier John may perhaps be the man of that name who married Joan
Hawey, heiress of St Donats in Glamorgan (widow of Peter Stradling),
and held a knight's fee there at the IPM of Gilbert de Clare, Earl of
Gloucester in 1314.
I haven't found anything to connect Edward (and a brother John) to a
definite point in the larger pedigree, but we can be certain he belongs
to it. Boughrood and Trewern, as well as Westbury-on-Severn and
Burghill, were all earlier held by the Gamages family; the former two
appear to have passed specifically to Elizabeth Gamages and husband
Henry de P ( see www.castles99.ukprint.com/Essays/pembridge.html )
rather than their siblings. As this Henry also held Pembridge, which
was held by Sir John according to HoP and does seem to have passed to
the Devereux family, it looks fairly certain Edward and John descend
from Henry and Elizabeth (rather than William and Euphemia). Exactly
how may turn up with more searching.
I include this section of the pedigree again for reference:
> > [1] Essay at www.castles99.ukprint.com/Essays/pembridge.html
> > [2] VCH Worcs IV 101-11, online at www.british-history.ac.uk/
> > [3] VCH Glos XI 147-8, online as above.
> > [4] Eyton, Antiquities of Shropshire ii 226
> > [5] Farnham, Leicestershire Medieval Pedigrees (1925), p.7
> > [6] www.wyevalleyhistory.net/Settlements%20-%20Gillow.htm
[I've corrected the above URL again- also a brand new fix to the one
below-
> [8] www.plantagenet.org.uk/ladies%20bios/marie%20pembridge.htm
from the previous post]
-Matthew
Patricia Junkin
Orabillis was the daughter of William de Harcourt and Alice la
Zouche, sister of Alan la Zouche who obtained "1267 Oct. 22. Grant at the
instance of Alan la Zuche and in aid of the marriages of Orabilla and
Margery de Harecut, daughters of William de Harecurt and Alanąs nieces, to
the said nieces of the ransom of the value of the manors of the said William
of Tonge (a de Belmeis inheritance) and Ayliston with the soke of Straton,
belonging to the king by occasion of the trespasses of the said William, who
was against the king in the time of the disturbance had in the realm; to
hold according to the award of Kenilworth"
Henry de Penebrigge. County: Wiltshire Country: England Henry de
Pennebrigge did not hold the manor of Tudeworth in co. Wilts of the King in
chief on the day that he died, but Roger la Suche, who held that manor of
John Biset, gave it to Gilbert de Sanford with Lora, his daughter, in free
marriage, and the said Gilbert being dead, the said Lora gave the said manor
to Arrabilia, who was the wife of the said Henry de Pennebrigge, and to
Fulk, son of the said Henry and Arrabilia, by the service of 1d. by the
year.
Fulk de Penebrigg IPM 24 Edw I held the Manor of Tonge of his uncle Sir
Alan la Zouche, which manor Sir Alan, grandfather of the present Alan gave
to Alice his sister, grandmother of Sir Fulk in free marriage.
On the death of Alan la Zouche in 1314, Northtodeworth. 2 messuages and 2
carucates land held of the heirs of the said Alan by the prior of
Maydenebradele [Maidens Bradley] and the heirs of Fulk de Penbrig by service
of 1/2 knights fee.
Thanks, Pat
----------
>From: mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
>To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
>Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
>Subject: Re: Pembridge (Pembrugge, etc) pedigree
>Date: Tue, 7, 2006, 6:28 AM
>
> The line of Sir Richard de Pembridge KG (d.1375) is given in a pedigree
> in Compton Reade and Earl of Liverpool's 'The House of Cornewall'
> (1908) p.193 [apparently following Robinson's Mansions and Manors of
> Herefordshire, which seems to now be on Google Books] as going:
>
> Ralph of Pembridge and Newland c.1200, dcd 1219
> Henry 1219 of Newland and Clehonger
> Henry of Newland and Clehonger 13EI, 1284-5
> Henry sp; & Richard, founded Chantry in Clehonger, dcd 1346=Petronilla
> fl 1336, had
> Sir Richard KG, et al.
>
> The first Ralph and Henry's dates match fine with the pair briefly
> deprived of lands in 1216. However, as we've seen there to be an
> unbroken succession of Henrys afterwards, one alive 1284-5 can only be
> the younger son of Henry who d.1279, meaning that the pedigree above
> has amalgamated four or five Henrys into just two.
>
> A reminder of the place of the younger Henry:
>> [1] Essay at www.castles99.ukprint.com/Essays/pembridge.html
>> [2] VCH Worcs IV 101-11, online at www.british-history.ac.uk/
>> [3] VCH Glos XI 147-8, online as above.
>> [4] Eyton, Antiquities of Shropshire ii 226
>> [5] Farnham, Leicestershire Medieval Pedigrees (1925), p.7
>> [6] www.wyevalleyhistory.net/Settlements%20-%20pembridge.htm
> [7] ODNB entry for Sir Richard Pembridge (d.1375)
> [8] www.plantaganet.org.uk/ladies%20bios/marie%20pembridge.htm
> [9] available via Chris Phillips' site www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk
> [10] www.rootsweb.com/~ukhfhs/mip.html
> [11] VCH Herts III 59-63, available at www.british-history.ac.uk
>
> -Matthew
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
Patricia Junkin wrote:
> Was the "a. Sir Richard, c.1320-1375" below in the line of Fulk?
>
> Orabillis was the daughter of William de Harcourt and Alice la
> Zouche, sister of Alan la Zouche who obtained "1267 Oct. 22. Grant at the
> instance of Alan la Zuche and in aid of the marriages of Orabilla and
> the said nieces of the ransom of the value of the manors of the said William
> of Tonge (a de Belmeis inheritance) and Ayliston with the soke of Straton,
> belonging to the king by occasion of the trespasses of the said William, who
> was against the king in the time of the disturbance had in the realm; to
> hold according to the award of Kenilworth"
> Henry de Penebrigge. County: Wiltshire Country: England Henry de
> Pennebrigge did not hold the manor of Tudeworth in co. Wilts of the King in
> chief on the day that he died, but Roger la Suche, who held that manor of
> John Biset, gave it to Gilbert de Sanford with Lora, his daughter, in free
> marriage, and the said Gilbert being dead, the said Lora gave the said manor
> to Arrabilia, who was the wife of the said Henry de Pennebrigge, and to
> Fulk, son of the said Henry and Arrabilia, by the service of 1d. by the
> year.
> Fulk de Penebrigg IPM 24 Edw I held the Manor of Tonge of his uncle Sir
> Alan la Zouche, which manor Sir Alan, grandfather of the present Alan gave
> to Alice his sister, grandmother of Sir Fulk in free marriage.
> On the death of Alan la Zouche in 1314, Northtodeworth. 2 messuages and 2
> carucates land held of the heirs of the said Alan by the prior of
> Maydenebradele [Maidens Bradley] and the heirs of Fulk de Penbrig by service
> of 1/2 knights fee.
>
identified Sir Richard de Pembridge KG (c.1320-1375) as being grandson
of a Henry, who is given by Eyton as a son of the Henry who married
Orabilis/Arabella, only by a second wife. If so, Sir Richard would not
share the Zouche descent of the Fulks. However, more confirmation would
be welcome about this placement, and everything else of course.
-Matthew
WJho...@aol.com
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk writes:
<< Hello Pat, thanks for that additional information- I tentatively
identified Sir Richard de Pembridge KG (c.1320-1375) as being grandson
of a Henry, who is given by Eyton as a son of the Henry who married
Orabilis/Arabella, only by a second wife. >>
It's tight isn't it?
Sir Sir Thomas Barre was Sheriff of Hereford in 1356 and is identified as a
nephew of Sir Richard de Pembrugge the chronology would go something like
Sir Thomas Barre b 1325/31 son of
Miss (Pembruge) Barre b 1306/18 dau of
Mr Pembruge of Clehonger b 1289/1306 son of
Henry de Pembruge b 1272/83 son of
Henry Pembruge b abt 1255 by other wife not Orabilis, and son of
Henry Pembruge married Elizabeth Gamage
That's pretty specific ! It always narrow the window for Orabilis' lifespan
Will Johnson
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
WJhonson wrote:
> mvernonconnolly writes:
>
> << Hello Pat, thanks for that additional information- I tentatively
> identified Sir Richard de Pembridge KG (c.1320-1375) as being grandson
> of a Henry, who is given by Eyton as a son of the Henry who married
> Orabilis/Arabella, only by a second wife. >>
>
> It's tight isn't it?
> Sir Sir Thomas Barre was Sheriff of Hereford in 1356 and is identified as a
> nephew of Sir Richard de Pembrugge the chronology would go something like
>
> Sir Thomas Barre b 1325/31 son of
> Miss (Pembruge) Barre b 1306/18 dau of
> Mr Pembruge of Clehonger b 1289/1306 son of
> Henry de Pembruge b 1272/83 son of
> Henry Pembruge b abt 1255 by other wife not Orabilis, and son of
> Henry Pembruge married Elizabeth Gamage
>
> That's pretty specific ! It always narrow the window for Orabilis' lifespan
(2) of Henry whose first wife was Orabel, but that is only a conjecture
based on what's turned up so far; we've seen though that there are some
very short generations in the family at that period that are well
attested. I had Sir Thomas Barre down as b.c.1349 though, wasn't the
sheriff in 1356 the father (ie the one who married Hawise Pembridge)?
Either way, unless Eyton was in error, it does indeed seem that Orabel
must have died quite young.
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
By coincidence, as the Fitzwarines are also mentioned in the Tregoz
thread, I was looking at Pembridge references on Google Books yesterday
and one came up in the old story of 'Fouke le Fitzwaryn' (Histoire de
Foulques Fitz-Warin, Francisque Michel, 1840 p.62). Fulk (ie Fulk III)
and his wife Maud are given a daughter Joan who married Henry de
Pembridge ("ileq fust delyvre de une file qe fust baptize Johane, qe
pus fust mariee a sire Henre de Penebrugge.") While of course this may
not be accurate, it would be an odd thing to make up, as they weren't
that renowned a family (unless they were patrons of the author!). If
there is truth in it, chronologically this Joan might have been wife of
the Henry who was marrying his sons to the Gamage heiresses in 1254 (no
guarantee she would be mother of the sons though).
However, whether or not they were actual descendants, this is almost
certainly why the name Fulk appears in the Pembridge family in 1272 (as
there's no evidence yet of any before then); the ODNB entry for the
Fitzwarine family dates the composition of the tale to 1258-65 or
'perhaps a little later'.
WJho...@aol.com
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk writes:
<< I had Sir Thomas Barre down as b.c.1349 though, wasn't the
sheriff in 1356 the father (ie the one who married Hawise Pembridge)?
Either way, unless Eyton was in error, it does indeed seem that Orabel
must have died quite young. >>
Well it seems thats going to depend on whether you think Isabel (Barre)
Eylesford who
married "bef 16 Mar 1369" to Sir John Eylesford of Tillington (d 18 Feb 1396,
s.p.)
was a daughter of this Thomas Barre or the father you say existed of the same
name.
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk writes:
<< I was looking at Pembridge references on Google Books yesterday
and one came up in the old story of 'Fouke le Fitzwaryn' (Histoire de
Foulques Fitz-Warin, Francisque Michel, 1840 p.62). Fulk (ie Fulk III)
and his wife Maud are given a daughter Joan who married Henry de
Pembridge ("ileq fust delyvre de une file qe fust baptize Johane, qe
pus fust mariee a sire Henre de Penebrugge.") >>
The pieces so far, esp the "c" dates in Eyton would indicate that the
children Henry de Pembrugge (held two knight's fees in 1235) were born c 1218 and c
1220 per Eyton.
It seems likely if they are naming grandchildren "Fulk" that if this came
through Joan's father Fulk, she must be the mother. This however would push her
back to having children 20 years or so before her sister Eva (FitzWarin)
Blancminster. This could then lead to her father being identified with Fulk who m
Hawise of Dinham which would allow Joan to be a better wife chronologically to
Henry Pembrugge.
Will Johnson
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
I wrote:
> The biographies in HoP Commons 1386-1421 for John Merbury and others
> give the following Pembridge information:
>
> 1. Sir John Pembridge of Pembridge=Elizabeth, had:
>
> 2. Alice, daughter and heiress, d.1415=(1) Edmund de la Bere, (2)
> Thomas Oldcastle of Eyton MP d.1398/9, (3) John Merbury of Weobley MP
> d.1438 (as his first wife). Alice had issue:
>
> 3a. Richard Oldcastle dsp 1421
> 3b. Wintelan (Gwenllian, aka Joan) Oldcastle b.1392= Sir Robert Whitney
> of Whitney MP (d.1443), with issue.
> 3c. Isabel= Walter Hackluyt, with issue.
> 3d. Elizabeth Merbury, d&h of John,=Sir Walter Devereux of Bodenham
> (1411-1459), with issue.
>
> There seem to be a lot of pedigrees online giving John P's father as
> Ralph, and indeed he's given that paternity in the collection of
> Herefordshire pedigrees in Harl. MSS 1140 in the British Library (but
> the line is not taken further back). It looks as though the father was
> not Ralph though, so perhaps this is yet another memory of the earlier
> Ralphs.
The Pembridge pedigree in the 1623 Visitation of Shropshire (Harl Soc
xxix 394) starts with a 'Raph' and gives him four sons, including one
called Sir John; no issue shown for the latter, but it could have been
taken as a source by some. There is a later John in the pedigree, who
is in fact the John (d.1376) of Little Dymock; while contemporary with
Sir John, he definitely had male issue so is not to be confused (but
again, has been on the net) with the father of the heiress Alice. The
pedigree is clearly muddled [a nice oxymoron] at the start, but the
four sons seem to represent the four branches of Dymock, Tong,
Pembridge and Clehonger in collapsed form.
> There's a useful document on Chris Phillips' site at
> www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_83_49.shtml#28
> dated 1385, which involves Thomas Oldcastle and Alice his wife and
> mentions "Elizabeth who was the wife of John Penbrugge kt" holding
> lands for life. This tells us that John was dead by then and confirms
> his wife's name as Elizabeth; also that Alice was on her second
> marriage by that date. The places mentioned are the manors of "Boghrade
> and Treweryn" and lands in "Eton', Boghrade and Borghulle".
>
> This ties in neatly with something in the National Archives
> (C143/315/17):
> "John son of Edward de Penebrugge to settle the manors of Bouthrede and
> Eaton [in Leominster] on himself, Elzabeth his wife and his heirs,
> retaining the manor of Burghill. Hereford. 28 EIII" (1354-5). The
> continuity of place and wife suggest this is the same John as above, so
> he is son of an Edward.
A grant by "Elizabeth, wife of Sir Jno. Penebrugge, to William ap
Richard and John ap Richard of lands &c. in Gweligwimiethe, 26 EIII
(1352)" appears in 'Bibliotheca Phillippica' (1903) p151 no.1187 (On
Google Books). [If Elizabeth was of Welsh extraction it might explain
her grandaughter being named Wenllian.]
> "Edward de Penbrigg" had a grant from Edward III for a market and fair
> at Boughrood, 5 Oct 1335 (see www.history.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/wales.html#Bou )
>
> An "Edward de Penebrugge" seems to have held land in
> Westbury-on-Severn, Glos. in 1349 at the death of Nicholas de Gamage
> (see www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=15766 ).
Thinking about the chronology, I now suspect that the Edward above
would be of a younger generation than the one below. As the one below
is not mentioned in relation to any of the places above, there may not
even be a near connection (Edward being the name of the kings of that
period, it was presumably more popular as a result).
> There is an earlier record of Edward de P with a brother called John
> (NA, C/143/36/7): John de Penebrugge to grant a rent in Meon, which he
> holds of the king in chief, to Edward his brother, retaining rent
> there. Glouc. 29EI (1300-1). This seems to connect with C/143/133/3:
> Fulk de Penbrugge to retain the manor of Mune acquired by him from John
> de Penbrugge. Glouc. 11EII (1317-8). This Fulk is presumably the one
> with dates 1291-1326. Again I'm not sure where Meon/Mune is if it's in
> Glos.
This seems to give the answer: E 210/2115. Henry son of Ralph de
Penebruge to Payn his son; grant of his manor of Meon [in Quinton],
(Mune): Glos (no date). The villages of Lower and Upper Quinton are
indeed on Meon Hill, and were in Gloucestershire until 1931 apparently
(now in Warwickshire). If the Henry son of Ralph was the 1216 one, and
if this Payn was progenitor of the brothers Edward and John, it would
rule out the two Edwards being in direct line to each other, as the
younger Edward must descend from the Gamage marriage. However, without
a date there's no certainty- there could be another Henry son of Ralph:
there are a couple more documents with Henry son of Ralph in, which are
also either undated or vague- one dated to the reign of Edward I, which
if correct would be too late for the 1216 man.
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
WJhonson wrote:
> mvernonconnolly writes:
> << I had Sir Thomas Barre down as b.c.1349 though, wasn't the
> sheriff in 1356 the father (ie the one who married Hawise Pembridge)?>>
>
> Eylesford who
> married "bef 16 Mar 1369" to Sir John Eylesford of Tillington (d 18 Feb 1396,
> s.p.)
> was a daughter of this Thomas Barre or the father you say existed of the same
> name.
>From HoP:
1. Thomas de la Barre of Rotherwas MP=Hawise sis & ch Sir Richard
Pembridge of Ayot St Lawrence and had:
2. Sir Thomas de la Barre c.1349-1419 MP=Elizabeth d.1420 her (3) dau
Sir William Croyser of Stoke Dabernon by his (1), and had:
3a. Sir Thomas d.1420 vp [sic]= Alice Talbot sis 1E Shrewsbury, had 4.
John MP
3b. A daughter
Brad Verity showed that 2. died in 1420 (which HoP should have had, as
they even gave the son dvp). The pedigree in 'House of Cornewall'
(which isn't generally accurate) says that the first Thomas was MP for
Hereford 1355 and was buried with his wife in Todington, 1385. [We know
from the inheritance that Hawise Pembridge was dead in 1375.]
To help with dating, Hawise's sister Amice married Sir John Burley KG
(d.c.1383), the elder brother of Sir Simon Burley who was b.1336?
(ODNB) and ex.1388. John and Amice had Sir Richard KG (d.1387 in Spain,
sp), William (dsp 1388), Roger (issue failed 1445) and Isabel who m.
Sir John Hopton, with issue (descendant Thomas H. s. to Burley
properties in 1445),
[a quo Corbet etc.].
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
WJhonson wrote:
> mvernonconnolly writes:
>
> << I was looking at Pembridge references on Google Books yesterday
> and one came up in the old story of 'Fouke le Fitzwaryn' (Histoire de
> Foulques Fitz-Warin, Francisque Michel, 1840 p.62). Fulk (ie Fulk III)
> and his wife Maud are given a daughter Joan who married Henry de
> Pembridge ("ileq fust delyvre de une file qe fust baptize Johane, qe
> pus fust mariee a sire Henre de Penebrugge.") >>
>
> The pieces so far, esp the "c" dates in Eyton would indicate that the
> children Henry de Pembrugge (held two knight's fees in 1235) were born c 1218 and c
> 1220 per Eyton.
As I pointed out in one of the earlier posts, although Eyton gives one
Henry as 1235, 1254, these records may in fact refer to two generations
of Henrys, as we also have a Henry active in 1216; and if a man is
arranging his sons' marriages to minors in 1254, I would think it more
likely that the sons were themselves minors, and not in their mid-30s
as your dates would have it. Indeed, the draft VCH text for Dymock has
that the younger son William and his wife (as of >1254) Euphemia
Gamage, held half a fee in Dymock in 1285, and William had it after her
death; and that they were succeeded by their son William as late as
1317. I think the sons were perhaps born after 1240- the elder, Henry,
only needs to be old enough to be supporting de Montfort in 1264.
> It seems likely if they are naming grandchildren "Fulk" that if this came
> through Joan's father Fulk, she must be the mother. This however would push her
> back to having children 20 years or so before her sister Eva (FitzWarin)
> Blancminster. This could then lead to her father being identified with Fulk who m
> Hawise of Dinham which would allow Joan to be a better wife chronologically to
> Henry Pembrugge.
>From John Ravilious' post in the Tregoz thread, Fulk (III) married the
widowed Maud before 1st Oct 1207 and she was dead by 1227. In light of
my theories above, it's chronologically possible for their daughter to
be mother of Henry and William, but as we don't know of a son in that
generation called Fulk she still may not be. If she was another wife of
Henry but dsp, and Henry's son himself had a son at the time the
exploits of Fulk Fitzwarin were so popular, he might still choose the
name Fulk by association rather than by descent.
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
I wrote:
> > The biographies in HoP Commons 1386-1421 for John Merbury and others
> > give the following Pembridge information:
> >
> > 1. Sir John Pembridge of Pembridge=Elizabeth, had:
> >
> > 2. Alice, daughter and heiress, d.1415=(1) Edmund de la Bere, (2)
> > Thomas Oldcastle of Eyton MP d.1398/9, (3) John Merbury of Weobley MP
> > d.1438 (as his first wife). Alice had issue:
> >
> > 3a. Richard Oldcastle dsp 1421
> > 3b. Wintelan (Gwenllian, aka Joan) Oldcastle b.1392= Sir Robert Whitney
> > of Whitney MP (d.1443), with issue.
> > 3c. Isabel= Walter Hackluyt, with issue.
> > 3d. Elizabeth Merbury, d&h of John,=Sir Walter Devereux of Bodenham
> > (1411-1459), with issue.
> >
> > www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_83_49.shtml#28
> > dated 1385, which involves Thomas Oldcastle and Alice his wife and
> > mentions "Elizabeth who was the wife of John Penbrugge kt" holding
> > lands for life. This tells us that John was dead by then and confirms
> > his wife's name as Elizabeth; also that Alice was on her second
> > marriage by that date. The places mentioned are the manors of "Boghrade
> > and Treweryn" and lands in "Eton', Boghrade and Borghulle".
There's another document from later in 1385 in the Patent Rolls, RIII
vol 3 p.52, a pardon that again mentions "Thomas Oldecastell and Alice,
his wife", "the manor of Boghrad and Treweryn" and lands in "Eton
Boghrad, held in chief, whereof Elizabeth late the wife of John de
Penbrugge, knight, was tenant for life, and which was part of the
inheritance of the said Alice".
> > This ties in neatly with something in the National Archives
> > (C143/315/17):
> > "John son of Edward de Penebrugge to settle the manors of Bouthrede and
> > Eaton [in Leominster] on himself, Elzabeth his wife and his heirs,
> > retaining the manor of Burghill. Hereford. 28 EIII" (1354-5). The
> > continuity of place and wife suggest this is the same John as above, so
> > he is son of an Edward.
Again supported by the Patent Rolls: (EIII 10 p.344) Feb 1 1356:
"Licence, for 100s. to be paid to the king by John son of Edward de
Penebrugge, for him to enfeoff Robert Whiteney and Thomas de Hampton of
the manors of Bouthrede and Eton, co. Hereford, held of the king in
chief, and for them to grant the same to him and Elizabeth, his wife,
and his heirs."
> A grant by "Elizabeth, wife of Sir Jno. Penebrugge, to William ap
> Richard and John ap Richard of lands &c. in Gweligwimiethe, 26 EIII
> (1352)" appears in 'Bibliotheca Phillippica' (1903) p151 no.1187 (On
> Google Books). [If Elizabeth was of Welsh extraction it might explain
> her grandaughter being named Wenllian.]
>
> > "Edward de Penbrigg" had a grant from Edward III for a market and fair
> > at Boughrood, 5 Oct 1335 (see www.history.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/wales.html#Bou )
> >
> > An "Edward de Penebrugge" seems to have held land in
> > Westbury-on-Severn, Glos. in 1349 at the death of Nicholas de Gamage
> > (see www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=15766 ).
>
> Thinking about the chronology, I now suspect that the Edward above
> would be of a younger generation than the one below.
Indeed he was, as the one below was dsp in 1306.
> > There is an earlier record of Edward de P with a brother called John
> > (NA, C/143/36/7): John de Penebrugge to grant a rent in Meon, which he
> > holds of the king in chief, to Edward his brother, retaining rent
> > there. Glouc. 29EI (1300-1).
This Edward had an IPM in 1306, when it was stated that he "died
without heirs of his body, whereof the said rent [in Meon] ought to
revert to the said John de Pennebrugg. The said John is the brother and
next heir of the said Edward, and is aged 40 years and more."
There is more information on this earlier John summarised in Rev.
Charles Moor's 'Knights of Edward I' vol 4 (Harl. Soc. 83) p.32,
including that he was s & h of Elizabeth de P, dec., and had livery of
her lands 6 Aug 1309; he was a lord of Eyton and Burghill, Herefs. 5
Mar 1316; his IPM was 4 Feb 1331, when he held "Bouwered, Eton, and
Borwehulle" hamlets and left a s & h Edward, aged 26. We can be
reasonably sure by the devolution of the manors that this latter Edward
was the father of the later Sir John. [This Edward's birthdate of
c.1305 may mean he was John's son by Joan Hawey, whose first husband
Sir Peter Stradling is thought to have died about then; if so, he would
be a half-brother of Sir Edward Stradling.]
> > This seems to connect with C/143/133/3:
> > Fulk de Penbrugge to retain the manor of Mune acquired by him from John
> > de Penbrugge. Glouc. 11EII (1317-8). This Fulk is presumably the one
> > with dates 1291-1326. Again I'm not sure where Meon/Mune is if it's in
> > Glos.
>
> This seems to give the answer: E 210/2115. Henry son of Ralph de
> Penebruge to Payn his son; grant of his manor of Meon [in Quinton],
> (Mune): Glos (no date). The villages of Lower and Upper Quinton are
> indeed on Meon Hill, and were in Gloucestershire until 1931 apparently
> (now in Warwickshire).
Although that charter is undated, we have a 1281 reference to "Payn de
Painsbrugge" as tenant of "Boghred", in a dispute with Ralph de "Touny"
(CPR EI vol.2 p.43). This dispute turns out to have a long history- in
1258 mention is made of "trespasses and excesses committed against
Roger de Mortuo Mari and Henry de Penbregg in the parts of Wales by
Roger de Thony, Richard de Thunderle and Alan, Constable of
Painscastle" (CPR HIII 4 p.664); in 1254 "Henry de Penebrugg and
Elizabeth his wife, and Lucy and Eufemia her sisters, have shown that
Richard de Tunderle disseised Godfrey de Gamages, father of the said
Elizabeth, Lucy and Eufemia, whose heirs they are, of the land of
Trewarn"; the argument being whether the said land was part of the
Honour of Painscastle (ie de Tony land) or "of the honour of Boghred,
which the said Godfrey held in chief". The dispute had started by 1252,
when Godfrey de Gamages and Richard de Tunderle were the parties.
There was an inquisition in 1253 "to ascertain whether Henry de
Penebrigg was seised of the manor of Meone and of 10 librates of land
in Dimmokes, which were of Godfrey de Gameages in the time of the said
Godfrey". So Meon was also a Gamage inheritance.
The implications of all this are that Eyton didn't have one Henry too
few in his Pembruge pedigree (as I conjectured before), but one too
many, as it was evidently the elder Henry who married Elizabeth Gamages
(as a second marriage), while afterwards securing the other heiresses
for his sons by his earlier wife (perhaps Joan Fitzwarin, as mentioned
before; Henry's son and heir (by the first wife), also Henry, was
admitted to the king's peace in 1268 "by mainprise of Fulk son of Warin
of the county of Salop"- CPR HIII 6 p.273); it also means that the
elder branch (later of Tong, a quo Vernons) don't have the Gamage and
Mynors ancestry, and indeed they didn't inherit any of the lands.
The line looks to go something like this (sons may not be in correct
birth order):
1.Ralph de Pembridge (maybe the 1216 one, I should have more info soon)
2.Sir Henry de Pembridge, dcd Aug 1271
+(1) [Joan dau Fulk III Fitzwarin?] dcd 1253
3a.Henry d.1279
+[?(1) Lucy de Gamages c.1254, dcd 1263 sp]
+(1/2)Orabel de Harcourt, with issue
+(2/3)Alice, liv.1312
3b.William d.1317
+Euphemia de Gamages, with issue
[?3c.Fulk, who bought marriage of Henry jr's heir 1285]
2.Henry dcd 1271, as above;
+(2) Elizabeth de Gamages c.1253, dcd 1309
3d.Payn liv.1281 [pres. dsp]
3e.Sir John, b by 1266, dcd 1331
+[Joan (Hawey) Stradling?]
4.Edward bc.1305, liv.1335, 1349?
+NN
5.Sir John liv.1356 dcd 1385
+Elizabeth liv.1385
6.Alice d.1415, married with issue as at top of post.
3f.Edward dsp 1306
3g.Godfrey liv.1267
-Matthew
Darrell E. Larocque
Darrell E. Larocque