HESKETH and DODINGSELLES (alias THWENG of Kendal)
Jeffery A. Duvall
back so I thought I'd try again and see if anyone has any new insights.
What I'm hoping to do is find out something about the family of Marcilla
Dodingselles, wife of Sir William Hesketh of Rufford (d. 1362). According
to the various secondary sources I've seen she is described as the daughter
and co-heiress of Dodingselles, alias Thweng of Kendal, Westmoreland.
It's this combination of "Thweng" and "Kendal" which of course arouses my
curiosity since one of the co-heiresses of the old barony of Kendal was
Lucy (a.k.a. Lucia) de Brus who married Marmaduke de Thweng. I've not had
much luck in trying to pin down any sort of substantive treatment of
Marmaduke de Thweng's family, but perhaps someone on the list will have
some suggestions. I know that it's probbably unlikely that Marcilla is a
descendant of Lucy de Brus and Marmaduke de Thweng, but perhaps there is
some connection between the families.
Oh well. Any and all help will be much appreciated.
Thanks.
Jeff Duvall
jef...@iquest.net
Tim Powys-Lybbe
jef...@iquest.net (Jeffery A. Duvall) wrote:
> I think I posted a query about this once before, but it's been a few years
> back so I thought I'd try again and see if anyone has any new insights.
>
> What I'm hoping to do is find out something about the family of Marcilla
> Dodingselles, wife of Sir William Hesketh of Rufford (d. 1362). According
> to the various secondary sources I've seen she is described as the daughter
> and co-heiress of Dodingselles, alias Thweng of Kendal, Westmoreland.
>
> It's this combination of "Thweng" and "Kendal" which of course arouses my
> curiosity since one of the co-heiresses of the old barony of Kendal was
> Lucy (a.k.a. Lucia) de Brus who married Marmaduke de Thweng.
Lucy was the 2nd daughter of Piers de Brus and Hawise de Lancaster.
Hawise was sister (CP XIV p.612) and co-heir of William de Lancaster.
But CP, XII/1, p. 739 does not say that Lucy de Brus was an heir, much
as some lands came with her on marriage (note (d) on page 739).
> I've not had much luck in trying to pin down any sort of substantive
> treatment of Marmaduke de Thweng's family, but perhaps someone on the
> list will have some suggestions. I know that it's probbably unlikely
> that Marcilla is a descendant of Lucy de Brus and Marmaduke de Thweng,
> but perhaps there is some connection between the families.
CP discusses the children of Marmaduke and Lucy de Brus, gives reports
of 8 further sons and 5 daughters but can find no good evidence for
their names, let alone their marriages. But none of these were heirs of
Thweng as the main line carried on for two more generations until the
three sisters of the last two barons became the eventual heirs in their
issue of the fourth and last baron, Thomas de Thweng. The three sisters
who became co-heirs in their issue were (1) Catherine, who m. Sir Ralph
Daubeny, (2) Margaret who m. Robert de Hylton of Swine, Yorks and (3)
Lucy who m. Robert de Lumley.
In note (d) on page 743, CP mentions the Guisborough Cartularly vol ii.
p. 32 and other sources which include a very long list of members of the
extended Thweng family and whose souls were to be prayed for. It might
just be that these sources would mention something that might make sense
of "Dodingselles, alias Thweng of Kendal, Westmoreland".
All in CP XII/1 pp.738 to 744 with a snippet mentioned above from XIV.
On Daubeny see CP II, 241 and CP IV p. 93 et seq. On Lumley see CP
VIII, p. 266 et seq.
>
> Oh well. Any and all help will be much appreciated.
>
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org
Rosie Bevan
Lucy de Brus was coheir with her sisters Agnes, Margaret and Laderina of
their brother Peter de Brus d.1272. On the division of the de Brus estate,
the barony of Kendal and some land in Cleveland passed to Margaret who was
married to Robert de Ros of Werk. It passed on to her son William de Ros,
Lord of Kendal. The Thwengs received the lordship, castle and forest of
Danby, the manors of Kirkburne and Southburn, in the east Riding, a quarter
of the wreck of the sea between Yarm and Runswick, a mediety of the bailiffy
of the wapentake of Langbaurgh and half the advowson of the Priory of
Guisborough. The total possessions valued at 9 and a half knight's fees
added to his own came to 16 and a half knight's fees. The Thwengs moved from
Kilton Castle to Danby Castle (Castleton) where their last three children
were born.
When their son and heir Robert Thweng died without producing a male heir,
the estate was allowed to be split in half whereby Lucy de Thweng received
the Brus inheritance and Marmaduke received the Thweng inheritance.
The names of the children of Lucy de Brus and Marmaduke de Thweng were
Robert b 1255 father of Lucy de Thweng
Marmaduke, first parliamentary Baron de Thweng b.1256
Hillaria b.1258
Galivanus b.1259
John b.1261
Edmund b.1263
Matilda b.1265
Richard b.1267
Alicia b. 1268
Peter b.1270
Joan b 1271
William b.1273
Roger b. 1274
Margery b 1276
Unfortunately their marriages are not provided.
It is possible that one of the younger Thwengs were tenants of Ros land in
Kendal, but it would be nice to know whether there is any land in connection
with the marriage so that its descent can be traced. Sir William Hesketh
held a quarter of a knights fee in Harewood in 1362 [IPM Henry Duke of
Lancaster] but this was never a Brus possession.
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Powys-Lybbe" <t...@powys.org>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: HESKETH and DODINGSELLES (alias THWENG of Kendal)
> In message <5.1.0.14.0.200107...@pop.iquest.net>
> jef...@iquest.net (Jeffery A. Duvall) wrote:
>
> > I think I posted a query about this once before, but it's been a few
years
> > back so I thought I'd try again and see if anyone has any new insights.
> >
> > What I'm hoping to do is find out something about the family of Marcilla
> > Dodingselles, wife of Sir William Hesketh of Rufford (d. 1362).
According
> > to the various secondary sources I've seen she is described as the
daughter
> > and co-heiress of Dodingselles, alias Thweng of Kendal, Westmoreland.
> >
> > It's this combination of "Thweng" and "Kendal" which of course arouses
my
> > curiosity since one of the co-heiresses of the old barony of Kendal was
> > Lucy (a.k.a. Lucia) de Brus who married Marmaduke de Thweng.
>
> Lucy was the 2nd daughter of Piers de Brus and Hawise de Lancaster.
> Hawise was sister (CP XIV p.612) and co-heir of William de Lancaster.
> But CP, XII/1, p. 739 does not say that Lucy de Brus was an heir, much
> as some lands came with her on marriage (note (d) on page 739).
>
> > I've not had much luck in trying to pin down any sort of substantive
> > treatment of Marmaduke de Thweng's family, but perhaps someone on the
> > list will have some suggestions. I know that it's probbably unlikely
> > that Marcilla is a descendant of Lucy de Brus and Marmaduke de Thweng,
> > but perhaps there is some connection between the families.
>
> CP discusses the children of Marmaduke and Lucy de Brus, gives reports
> of 8 further sons and 5 daughters but can find no good evidence for
> their names, let alone their marriages. But none of these were heirs of
> Thweng as the main line carried on for two more generations until the
> three sisters of the last two barons became the eventual heirs in their
> issue of the fourth and last baron, Thomas de Thweng. The three sisters
> who became co-heirs in their issue were (1) Catherine, who m. Sir Ralph
> Daubeny, (2) Margaret who m. Robert de Hylton of Swine, Yorks and (3)
> Lucy who m. Robert de Lumley.
>
> In note (d) on page 743, CP mentions the Guisborough Cartularly vol ii.
> p. 32 and other sources which include a very long list of members of the
> extended Thweng family and whose souls were to be prayed for. It might
> just be that these sources would mention something that might make sense
> of "Dodingselles, alias Thweng of Kendal, Westmoreland".
>
> All in CP XII/1 pp.738 to 744 with a snippet mentioned above from XIV.
> On Daubeny see CP II, 241 and CP IV p. 93 et seq. On Lumley see CP
> VIII, p. 266 et seq.
>
> >
> > Oh well. Any and all help will be much appreciated.
> >
>