De La Warr - another CP Error?
Chris Phillips
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Trying to work out the likely date of the Percy pedigree that Douglas
Richardson referred to in relation to the parentage of Anne Percy, the wife
of Sir Thomas Hungerford, I was puzzled by a daughter of Thomas Percy
[d.1461] and [Eleanor] Poynings, who is shown as "Aleonora nupta domino de
la Ware".
...
The only candidate seems to be Thomas (West), Lord La Warre
(b.c. 1457, d. 1525). The Complete Peerage says [vol.4, p.156] he married
2ndly an Eleanor, who survived him, dying in 1536. The chronology looks
reasonable enough for her to be the Eleanor Percy in the Northumberland
pedigree, but she is identified as "Eleanor, da. of Sir Roger Copley, of
Roughway, Sussex, by Anne, 2nd da. and coh. of Thomas (Hoo), Baron Hoo and
Hastings" (no source cited).
Can anyone shed any light on the mystery? On the face of it the Percy
pedigree looks to be quite strong evidence to identify Thomas's wife as
Eleanor Percy, as on internal evidence it appears to have been compiled in
the 1480s.
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and later added:
<<
On the identification by the editor of Flower's Visitation of Eleanor
Percy's husband as Reginald (Thomas's grandfather), there is a note in the
Complete Peerage (vol.4, p.155, note c):
"In the pedigree of Percy, by Bishop Percy (Collins, edit. 1779, vol.ii,
p.373), it is stated that Eleanor, 1st da. of Henry, Earl of Northumberland,
is mentioned in her father's will, dated 1 Nov. 36 Hen. VI, as unmarried,
and that she afterwards m. Reynold West, Lord la Warre. This, and Blore's
statement (Rutland, p.100) that the same Eleanor was wife of Richard, Lord
La Warre, are both obviously erroneous." [Richard was Thomas's father]
It looks as though these statements were different attempts to identify the
"Lord la Warre" mentioned in the visitation pedigrees. If the part about
Eleanor being unmarried when her father's will was made (1 November 1457),
Reginald and Richard would certainly be ruled out, on the information in
Complete Peerage.
>>
I've now had a look at the PCC wills of Thomas, West, Lord la Warre
(d.1525), his widow Eleanor (d.1536), and Elizabeth Copley, an unmarried
daughter of Roger Copley.
These leave no doubt that the account in the Complete Peerage (vol.4,
pp.155,156) is essentially correct, and that Thomas's widow Eleanor was a
daughter of Roger Copley.
Elizabeth Copley's will, dated 27 November 27 Henry VIII [1535] and proved 5
February 35 Henry VIII [1543/4] [PROB11/25, fo.236b] mentions her niece Mary
"Saytmont"* and includes in a list of her "next kinsfolk" Margery Weste and
William Weste. "my Lorde Lawarr" is made overseer.
[*By comparison with the wills below, this was presumably a _great_ niece]
Eleanor West's will, dated 10 May and proved 14 November 1536 [PROB11/25,
fo.308] mentions her sons Owen West, George West, Leonard West and Sir
Thomas West knyght Lord Laware [the last was actually her stepson], and her
daughters Kateryn West and Barbara. Also her "son Sayntmonde", and Mary the
daughter of Sir Antony Sayntmounde knyght (to be paid when she reaches "her
laufull age of mariage"); Antony Sayntmound is a witness. Also her
goddaughter Elynor Copeley.
Thomas West's testament, dated 8 October 17 Henry VIII [1525] and proved 12
February 1525[/6] makes Sir Roger Copley knyght one of three overseers (he
is also a witness, as is Edmond Lewkenor [presumably the husband of
Margaret, another daughter of Roger Copley]). The separate will, of the same
date, mentions his sons Sir Thomas West knyght, Owen West, George West and
Leonard West. Sir Thomas's wife is called Elizabeth, but the other three
seem to be unmarried (Leonard is under 18). He also mentions Elizabeth West,
late wife unto William West my sonne deceased. The will also mentions
daughters Mary, Kateryn and Barbara. Also Elizabeth Owen, daughter of my
daughter Dorathe Owen (unmarried) and Mary Sayntmonde, daughter of my
daughter Anne Saintmond (unmarried).
Most helpfully, Thomas's will even tells us when his first wife Elizabeth
had died. He recites that he he promised "after the death of Dame Elizabeth
my wife ... that a masse of our lady shulde be saide in the churche of the
white freres in London ... during the term of xxx yeres and also that an
Anniversary or yerely obite schulde be kept yerely during the said terme the
day or next after saint Peters day the Apostell" to pray for the souls of
Elizabeth, and for those of Thomas's parents Richard and Kateryn. Then he
says that there remain 7 years of the 30, "sith the death of my said wife
is nowe expired xxiij yeres at Saint Peters day the appostell last past",
and he provides for another chantry to last 30 years, for his own soul and
those of Elizabeth, Elynor "nowe my wife", and Richard and Kateryn his
parents.
That seems to tell us that Thomas's first wife Elizabeth Mortimer died 29
June 1502. It looks as though their son Thomas was probably born around the
mid-1470s, when Thomas the (father) was aged about 20 or a bit less.
Where does that leave the Eleanor, daughter of Thomas Percy, who was said to
have married a Lord La Warr in a Percy pedigree apparently compiled in the
1480s? Obviously she isn't identical with this Thomas's recorded wife
Eleanor, and clearly she couldn't have been married to Thomas after the
death of Elizabeth Mortimer. But it seems that Eleanor was still unmarried
at the date of her father's will (1457), which rules out any of the earlier
Lords La Warr as her husband. Unless the Percy pedigree is just in error, it
seems that Eleanor must have had a brief and probably childless marriage to
Thomas in the early 1470s, when he was a teenager, and she was perhaps a few
years older. (Against this, Thomas didn't include her, along with his wives
Elizabeth Mortimer and Eleanor Copley, in the chantry established in his
will.)
Chris Phillips