Identity of Countess Ida revisited
Paul C. Reed
identity of the Countess Ida, mother of William Longespee (illegitimate son of
Henry II).
Older members of the group may recall the many discussions we had on this group
about this subject. William twice referred to his mother as "the Countess
Ida." We determined that the only person in England who fit that bill was Ida,
wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk (d. 1221). Her parentage is as yet
unproved [her son Hugh le Bigod married in 1207, and his son and heir, Roger,
was born ca. 1212/13].
After an extensive search of Continental Idas who had any connection with
England, I had suggested that Ida may have belonged to the de Toeni family.
I'd like to expound a little more on this and ask for help.
Roger de Toeni [the third of that name, or III] was born ca. 1104, and died
after Michaelmas 1157, presumably before his son died in 1162. He married Ida
of Hainault, daughter of Baldwin III, Count of Hainault, by his wife Yolande de
Guelders. It is not known when Ida died, but she presumably survived him, as
Henry II granted her [Ida de Tounay] land at Garsington, co. Oxford [Rot.
Hund.].
This couple had four known sons:
(1) Ralph de Toeni [V], who succeeded his father and died 1262/3, having
married Margaret de Beaumont.
(2) Roger de Toeni, Jr., dead by 1185, when his wife Ade/Alda de Chaumont was
holding land at Holkington, co. Norfolk, in dower of her son Baldwin de Toeni
[II] (1170-1216), Seigneur de Acquigny, apparently father of Roger de Akeny and
Sir William Dakeny [Acquigny]. The Rotuli de Dominabus states that Ade/Alda
was born about 1155, and that she had five daughters aside from her son
Baldwin. [Does anyone have any Dakeny ancestry?]
(3) Baldwin de Toeni, who settled in Hainault [having resided with his uncle
Baldwin IV], where he died in 1170, leaving issue.
(4) Geoffrey de Toeni, a cleric who flourished 1157-62, 1177.
It is my theory [stated long ago] that Roger de Toeni [III] and Ida of Hainault
also had at least one--probably more than one--daughter. This Toeni family
continued naming patters to an amazing degree. The male names were repeated
generation after generation [Roger, Ralph, Baldwin (after the marriage to Ida)
and Robert]. The same was probably true of female names.
I theorize that Roger [III] and Ida of Hainault had a daughter named Ida de
Toeni, and that she married Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk. Henry I is stated
to have given East Bergholt to Roger [III] de Toeni and his wife Ida of
Hainault in maritagium [Book of Fees 1:134 ("Henricus primus, Rex Anglie, dedit
Rogero de Tooni...in maritagio cum filia comitis de Henou")/Testa, 295].
So, how to find proof of this Ida?
The caput [chief place of residence] of the Toeni family was at Flamstead, co.
Herts. The Toeni family founded a Benedictine priory of nuns at Flamstead, and
the original cartulary is held at the Hertford Record Office.
I am not aware that this cartulary has been printed. Does anyone know if it
has? Does anyone have the access or expertise to search it (or know someone
who would)? Whatever information was gleaned would be an invaluable addition
to our knowledge of the Toeni family [there are certainly millions of American
descendants]. Any evidence of a candidate who could be wife of Roger le Bigod
and mother of William Longespee would be a major discovery.
Paul
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
THESES IN PROGRESS
http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/publications/tp97/tp97ihr.htm
Chatteris abbey cartulary: introduction and edition.
M. Claire Breay. (Dr. Diana E. Greenway.) London Ph.D.
(Inst. Hist. Res.)
A history of the Seagrave family in the 13th and 14th
centuries, with an edition of the Seagrave cartulary
and the estate survey of 1338. Samantha Letters.
(Dr. David A. Carpenter.) London Ph.D. (K.C. Hist.)
An edition, with introduction, of the cartulary of Aconbury.
Mary E. Scott. (Dr. Brian J. Golding.) Southampton M.Phil.
(Hist.)
An edition of the Wherwell cartulary. Rhoda Bucknell.
(Dr. David A. Carpenter.) London Ph.D. (K.C. Hist.)
Godsfield preceptory and its cartulary. Felicity Beard.
(Professor Michael A. Hicks, Dr. Stella R. Fletcher
and Professor Roger C. Richardson.) Southampton
M.Phil./Ph.D. (King Alfred's Coll., Winchester: Hist.)
Chatteris abbey cartulary: introduction and edition.
M. Claire Breay. (Dr. Diana E. Greenway.) London
Ph.D. (Inst. Hist. Res.)
SEE ALSO:
The Dating of Medieval English Private Charters
of the Twelfth and Thirteenth Centuries
by Michael Gervers
http://www.utoronto.ca/deeds/pubs/doc2/page1a.htm
The principal village of Flamstead
http://www.dacorum.gov.uk/towns/flamstead.htm
ANGLO-SAXON CHARTERS
http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/coins/smm/regestafiles/English_Aethelred_II_2of3.html
"S 912
A.D. 1005. King Æthelred to St Albans Abbey;
grant of 6 hides (cassatae for cassati) in two places,
comprising 1 at Flamstead and 5 at St Albans,
with renewal of extensive liberties granted by King Offa.
Latin with English bounds.
+ Cum nos in extrema pene huius uitae margine cernamus sistere,
et ultima quaeque senescentis mundi pericula indesinenter
luere, admonemur per hoc patenter paruipendere fugitiuam atque
caducam huius temporis pompam, et ad immarcessibilem
aeternae beatitudinis per bonorum operum exhibitionem tendere
palmam : et quicquid utilitatis nostris fuerit dei mirifica
allubescente clementia statutum temporibus hoc apicum notis
inserere cartis, ne hoc ipsum, quod absit, a subsequentibus
causa ignorantiae annullari ullo modo queat, et nostra tunc
merces minoretur. . . .
Scripta est autem huius libertatis cartula decursis annis
ab incarnatione Christi .DCCCC.XC. nouenis terque binis
in cursu millenario equidem sexto, his testibus fauentibus
quorum hic dignitates cum onomate contemplari ualebis.
+ Ego Æðelredus regia infula comptus propriae munificentiae
donum stabiliter confirmo.
+ Ego Wulfstanus archiepiscopus Eboracensis
aecclesiae assentio.
+ Ego Æðelstan clito.
+ Ego Ecbyrht clito.
+ Ego Eadmund clito.
+ Eadred clito.
+ Ego Eadwig clito.
+ Ego Eadgar clito.
+ Ego Eadward clito.
+ Ego Ælfheh episcopus.
+ Ego Ordbriht episcopus.
+ Ego Aðulf episcopus.
+ Ego Æðelsie episcopus.
+ Ego Lifing episcopus.
+ Ego Ælfwold episcopus.
+ Ego Ælfhelm episcopus.
+ Ego Ælfric abbas.
+ Ego Wulfgar abbas.
+ Ego Kenulf abbas.
+ Ego Ælfric abbas.
+ Ego Leofric abbas.
+ Ego Eadnoð abbas.
+ Ego Ælfwerd abbas.
+ Ego Ælfric comes.
+ Ego Ælfhelm comes.
+ Ego Leofwine comes.
+ Ego Æðelmær minister.
+ Ego Wulfgeat minister.
+ Ego Eadric minister.
+ Ego Wulfhet minister.
+ Ego Æðelric minister.
+ Ego Æðelwine minister.
+ Ego Æðelwerd minister.
+ Ego Æðelstan minister.
+ Ego Ulfcytel minister.
+ Ego Bryhtric minister.
+ Ego Leofwine minister."
The Conqueror and His Companions
by J.R. Planché, Somerset Herald. London:
Tinsley Brothers, 1874.
"I had presented some dozen entries from this
out-of-copyright material on the men who were
with William the Conqueror when he came to
claim England, and thought that was all I could
do because the NYPL's copy is in such bad shape
that I can't photocopy more from it. But recently
(August 1999) I was contacted online by Fred Curry
who kindly offered to send me photocopies from his
volumes. Thanks to him, we'll get most of the entries
online. I'm working on them as I can."
SUB SECTION: RAOUL DE TOENI
http://www.patpnyc.com/conq/toeni.htm
"and making Flamstead, in Hertfordshire,
his principal residence in England."
ALSO:
The family de Tosny (de Toeny, de Tony)
http://worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitte/theroff/tosny.txt
Ralph_V de TOENI* (L of Flamstead)
http://www.gendex.com/users/jast/D0034/G0000066.html
VI.B.2. The writ of cosinage
http://vi.uh.edu/pages/bob/elhone/Magna.html
"Gatesden v. Prioress of St. Giles (CRR, 16:301; 1239;
common pleas)
John of Gatesden seeks against the prioress of St. Giles
of Flamstead 1 carucate of land with appurtenances in
Hemelhampstead concerning which William of Gatesden,
cousin of the same John whose heir he is, was seised in
his demesne as of fee on the day he died, as he says.
And the prioress comes and seeks thereof the view.
Let her have it.
Day is given her at 3 weeks from the birth of St. John
the Baptist. And meanwhile etc."
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/homepage.htm#Here
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition [54th]
Who's Who In The West, 1998/1999
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
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"Paul C. Reed" wrote:
<SNIP> So, how to find proof of this Ida?