Possible Seljuk Connection
Jwc...@aol.com
As I understand the somewhat complicated Georgian
Royal dynasty David VI Narin ( Little David) was as said in the post the son
of Queen Rusadan . He was also the father of Demetre II ( He who gave his
head) who was married to Theodora, dau of the tyrant Manuel I by Rusadan, daughter
of David VII Ulu ( Big David), a bastard son of Queen Rusadan`s brother and
predecessor King George IV of Georgia who died without marrying and like his
sister was the son of David Sosan and Queen Tamara, who owed her position to
being the daughter of King George III. David VI amd David VII owe their
nicknames to the Mongols, who were suzerains and recieved tribute from them. Marco
Polo speaks of visiting Georgia in his travels through Kubilai Khan`s domain. As
to Denetre II`s nickname, He denied them tribute and when They massed for
attack He rode out to them and begged them spare the people slaughter... as He
had made the decision, He alone should be killed for defiance. The Mongols
agreed and executed Demetre II, then collected the customary tribute.
sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
David Hughes
frequent "know-it all" contributors pick and choose the sources they
use to "prove" a point. Well, this Seljuk descent-line has been
constructed just that way. I made note in generation # 10 Rusudan that
"Bagration 3" identifies this Rusudan as the wife of Manuel I, Tyrant
of Trebizonde, while other sources identify her with various others
who also bore that name. The identification of this Rusudan [gen. #
10] with the wife of Manuel of Trebizonde was essential in order to
establish this descent-line. Notice generations # 9 and # 12, who both
have the same name, Jigda Khanum. I think that gen. # 12 Jigda Khanum
was the daughter of Theodora, the 1st wife of Demetre II, King of
Karthli [Georgia], whom Theodora named after her grand-mother, rather
than the daughter of his 2nd wife Sorghala, dau of Abaka, Il-Khan of
Persia, as she appears in some sources. Here, again, I am selectively
picking sources that support my suppositions. I choose to believe
those sources that say Jigda Khanum was the daughter of Demetre II by
his 1st wife Theodora, rather than those that say she was his daughter
by his 2nd wife. Wow, I can do this too! And, voila! I have a Seljuk
"gateway" to main-stream European royalty, which is:
01. SELJUK
02. Arsan, had two bros: Mikhail & Yousef
03. Qutalmish
04. Suleiman I, Sultan of Rum [= Rome: the Turkish word for Byzantine
Empire, to which the sultans of Rum [Turkey] claimed to be its
successors]1077-1085, whose reign was followed by an interim 1085-1092
05. Qilij-Arslan I [Kilich; Kilidy], Sultan of Rum 1092-1104
= Isabelle, dau of Tzachas, Emir of Smyrna
06. Kai-Khosroe I, Sultan of Rum [Turkey] 1192-96 & 1204-1210
= Angelia Comnena, dau of Manuel Mavrozomes & Anonyma, dau of
Byzantine Emperor Manuel I 1143-1180
07. Kai-Qubad I [Kai-Kobad], Sultan of Rum [Turkey] 1219-1236
= Khwand Khatun Mah Peri
08. Kai-Khosroe II, Sultan of Rum [Turkey] 1236-1245
= Ghazia Khatun, dau of Yussuf Al-Nasir, Sultan of Aleppo 1237-1260,
son of Muhammed Al-Aziz, Sultan of Aleppo 1216-1237, son of
Ghiyath-ed-din Al-Zahir, Sultan of Aleppos 1193-1216, son of Saladin
"The Great", Sultan of Egypt 1169-1193; Damascus 1174-93; Aleppo,
Syria 1183-83; Jerusalem 1187-1193.
09. Jigda Khanum [Jihda-Hatun] (d1252), sis of Kai-Kaus II, Sultan of
Rum 1245-1255 & 1257-1261 (d1280?)
= David VII "Ulu, King of Georgia 1249-1270 [his 1st wife] [He =2
Gvantza, dau of Kakhaber IV Kakhaberidze, Duke of Tavkveri
[Kachaberidze] (d1263), by whom he begot Demetre II, King of Georgia;
=3 Isukhan, dau of Noyan, a Mongol Prince; some say Demetre II was the
son of his father's 3rd wife Isukhan; she could have been just his
step-mother]
10. Rusudan (dau) "of Iberia" [note: "Bagration 3" says its this one]
= Manuel I, Tyrant of Trebizonde [Trapezus], d1263 [his 2nd wife] [He
=1 Anna Xylaloe; =3 Irene Syracene]
11. Theodora (dau), Empress of Trebizonde 1284-5 dep, d. a nun
= Demetre II, King of Karthli [Georgia] 1273-1289 [son of David VII
"Ulu", King of Georgia, & his 2nd wife Gvantza, dau of Kakhaber IV
Kakhaberidze, Duke of Tavkveri [Kachaberidze] [his 1st =] [div. & =2
Sorghala, dau of Abaka, Il-Khan of Persia; =3 Natalie Djakeli, dau of
Beka I Jagueli, Beg of Samatzkhe]
issue of 1st wife:
12. Jigda Khanum [her sisters were Rusudan [=1 X, son of Bugha "The
Great"; =2 …] & Tamar Amanelidze [wife of David VI/I "Narin", King of
Georgia, Duke of Imeriti]
=1 Buga-Nojon; =2 Taki Panaskerteli; =3 Beka II Jaqueli, Beg of
Samatzkhe [his 2nd =; he =1 Kalthum]
issue by 3:
13. Djiadjak (dau)
= Alexis II, Tyrant of Trebizonde 1297-1300 [his 2nd =]
14. Eudoxia (dau)
= Matthew Cantacuzene (d1357), son of John VI Cantacuzene [Iohannes
Kantakuzenos], Byzantine Emperor 1347-54/5, abd, d1383, & Irene
(d1363/79), dau of Andronicus (d1355), son of Ivan Asen III, King of
Bulgaria, & Irene, dau of Byzantine Emperor Michael VIII
15. Theodore Cantacuzene (d1410)
= Helene, dau of Constantine Hypselantes & Eirene, dau of Demetrius
Palaeologus (d1343) & …
16. Eirene Cantacuzene
= Djordge [George Brankovic], Despot of Serbia 1427-1456 [his 3rd =]
[He =1 Eirene, dau of Demetrius of Morea; =2 Irene Komnenosi, dau of
Byzantine Emperor Alexis IV]
17. Stefan, Despot of Serbia 1458-59, d1477
= Angelina Ariaritissa, dau of George Komnenos Ariantes, Lord of
Cermanika, & Maria Muzakini
18. Iovan (d1502)
= Helene, dau of Istvan II Jaksic of Montenegro
19. Marie
= Ferdinand de Frangepan, Count of Veglia, d1527
20. Catherine [Katalin] (d1561)
= Miklos V Subic, Count Zrinski, Ban of Croatia 1542-56, d1566
21. Catherine [Katalin] (d1585)
= Ferenc Thurzo, Bishop/Count of Nyitra, d1574/6
22. Anna
= George Perenyi de Nagy-Ida, d 1597
23. George [Jr], Baron Perenyi, d1630
24. Imre, Baron Perenyi, d1651
25. Catherine
= Simon, bro of John Kemeny, Voivode of Transylvania
26. Simon, Baron Kemeny de Magyar-Gyero-Monostor (alive 1704)
27. Christine
= Balthazar, Baron Banffy de Losoncz
28. Theresa
= Mihaly, Count Rhedey de Kis-Rhede, d1791
29. Laszlo, Count Rhedey de Kis-Rhede, d1805
= Agnes Inczedy de Nagy-Varad
30. Claudine (d1841)
= Alexander of Wurttemberg (d1885)
31. Francis, Duke of Teck, d1900
= Mary Adelaide (d1897), dau of Adolphus-Frederick, Duke of Cambridge,
son of King George III
32. Mary of Teck
= George V, King of Britain, etc.
33. George VI Albert, King of Britain
= Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon
34. ELIZABETH II
= Philip, Prince of Greece
35. Charles, Prince of Wales
= Diana Spencer
36A&B William & Harry [Henry]
Nathaniel Taylor
HUGHES...@AOL.com (David Hughes) wrote:
> I have noticed that on google's medieval bulletin board that the
> frequent "know-it all" contributors pick and choose the sources they
> use to "prove" a point. Well, this Seljuk descent-line has been
> constructed just that way. ... I am selectively
> picking sources that support my suppositions. I choose to believe
> those sources that say Jigda Khanum was the daughter of Demetre II by
> his 1st wife Theodora, rather than those that say she was his daughter
> by his 2nd wife. Wow, I can do this too! And, voila! I have a Seljuk
> "gateway" to main-stream European royalty, which is:
<snip>
Thank you for posting this interesting line. Can you cite what sources
argue for and against each link, and briefly assess your criteria for
choosing one over the other? Or are you, as your post implies, merely
'choosing to believe' particular sources *because* they support this
descent? I don't think the latter is an accurate characterization of
the methodology of most frequent contributors to the Usenet group
soc.genealogy.medieval, or to its gated sister e-mail list, Gen-medieval.
Nat Taylor
Todd A. Farmerie
> I have noticed that on google's medieval bulletin board that the
> frequent "know-it all" contributors pick and choose the sources they
> use to "prove" a point.
Lest this confuse participants, this error should be set right. Google
has no medieval bulletin board - in fact, Google doesn't host any
bulletin boards. Google Groups (after purchasing the data and rights of
Deja.com, originally dejanews) provides a web-based archive of USENET
newsgroups, as well as a web-based tool for posting to these USENET
newsgroups. What is here being erroneously refered to as "google's
medieval bulletin board" is actually the Google Groups archive for the
USENET newsgroup soc.genealogy.medieval. (That newsgroup, in turn, is
linked through a two-way gateway to the email mailing list GEN-MEDIEVAL,
and thus the Google Groups archive of soc.gen.med also serves as a proxy
archive for GEN-MED). The distinction is important, as the posting,
propagation and distribution of messages is completely different between
a bulletin board, a mailing list, and a newsgroup.
taf
David Hughes
> 02. Arsan, had two bros: Mikhail & Yousef
> 03. Qutalmish
> 04. Suleiman I, Sultan of Rum [= Rome: the Turkish word for Byzantine
> Empire, to which the sultans of Rum [Turkey] claimed to be its
> successors]1077-1085, whose reign was followed by an interim 1085-1092
> 05. Qilij-Arslan I [Kilich; Kilidy], Sultan of Rum 1092-1104
> = Isabelle, dau of Tzachas, Emir of Smyrna
[07. Qilij-Arslan II, Sultan of Rum 1156-1192]
> 06/08. Kai-Khosroe I, Sultan of Rum [Turkey] 1192-96 & 1204-1210
> = Angelia Comnena, dau of Manuel Mavrozomes & Anonyma, dau of
> Byzantine Emperor Manuel I 1143-1180
> = Khwand Khatun Mah Peri
> son of Muhammed Al-Aziz, Sultan of Aleppo 1216-1237, son of
> Ghiyath-ed-din Al-Zahir, Sultan of Aleppos 1193-1216, son of Saladin
> "The Great", Sultan of Egypt 1169-1193; Damascus 1174-93; Aleppo,
> Syria 1183-83; Jerusalem 1187-1193.
> Rum 1245-1255 & 1257-1261 (d1280?)
> = David VII "Ulu, King of Georgia 1249-1270 [his 1st wife] [He =2
> Gvantza, dau of Kakhaber IV Kakhaberidze, Duke of Tavkveri
> [Kachaberidze] (d1263), by whom he begot Demetre II, King of Georgia;
> =3 Isukhan, dau of Noyan, a Mongol Prince; some say Demetre II was the
> son of his father's 3rd wife Isukhan; she could have been just his
> step-mother]
> =1 Anna Xylaloe; =3 Irene Syracene]
> = Demetre II, King of Karthli [Georgia] 1273-1289 [son of David VII
> "Ulu", King of Georgia, & his 2nd wife Gvantza, dau of Kakhaber IV
> Kakhaberidze, Duke of Tavkveri [Kachaberidze] [his 1st =] [div. & =2
> Sorghala, dau of Abaka, Il-Khan of Persia; =3 Natalie Djakeli, dau of
> Beka I Jagueli, Beg of Samatzkhe]
> issue of 1st wife:
> Great"; =2 ?] & Tamar Amanelidze [wife of David VI/I "Narin", King of
> Georgia, Duke of Imeriti]
> =1 Buga-Nojon; =2 Taki Panaskerteli; =3 Beka II Jaqueli, Beg of
> Samatzkhe [his 2nd =; he =1 Kalthum]
> issue by 3:
> = Alexis II, Tyrant of Trebizonde 1297-1300 [his 2nd =]
> = Matthew Cantacuzene (d1357), son of John VI Cantacuzene [Iohannes
> Kantakuzenos], Byzantine Emperor 1347-54/5, abd, d1383, & Irene
> (d1363/79), dau of Andronicus (d1355), son of Ivan Asen III, King of
> Bulgaria, & Irene, dau of Byzantine Emperor Michael VIII
> = Helene, dau of Constantine Hypselantes & Eirene, dau of Demetrius
> 18. Eirene Cantacuzene
> = Djordge [George Brankovic], Despot of Serbia 1427-1456 [his 3rd =]
> [He =1 Eirene, dau of Demetrius of Morea; =2 Irene Komnenosi, dau of
> Byzantine Emperor Alexis IV]
> = Angelina Ariaritissa, dau of George Komnenos Ariantes, Lord of
> Cermanika, & Maria Muzakini
> = Helene, dau of Istvan II Jaksic of Montenegro
> = Ferdinand de Frangepan, Count of Veglia, d1527
> = Miklos V Subic, Count Zrinski, Ban of Croatia 1542-56, d1566
> = Ferenc Thurzo, Bishop/Count of Nyitra, d1574/6
> = George Perenyi de Nagy-Ida, d 1597
> 26. Imre, Baron Perenyi, d1651
> 27. Catherine
> = Simon, bro of John Kemeny, Voivode of Transylvania
> 29. Christine
> = Balthazar, Baron Banffy de Losoncz
> = Mihaly, Count Rhedey de Kis-Rhede, d1791
> = Agnes Inczedy de Nagy-Varad
> = Alexander of Wurttemberg (d1885)
> = Mary Adelaide (d1897), dau of Adolphus-Frederick, Duke of Cambridge,
> son of King George III
> = George V, King of Britain, etc.
> = Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon
> 36. ELIZABETH II
> = Philip, Prince of Greece
> = Diana Spencer
> 38A&B William & Harry [Henry]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
accidentally omitted a couple of generations above: Masud I, Sultan of
Rum, and son, Qilij-Arslan II, for when I typed up the pedigree, upon
typing Qilij-Arslan I, my eyes dropped down to Qilij-Arslan II and I
continued with his son Kai-Khosroe I, however, in rechecking the
pedigree I discovered another Davidic Dynasty descent-link, which is:
00. Azariah I, Jewish Exilarch (975), # 34 in succession from Bustanai
00. Daniel "Nasi", Patriarch of Palestine 1051-62
00. David [V], anti-exilarch 1081-1094
00. dau
= Sokman I, Atabeg of Mosul 1101-4 [the Ortokides] [his 2nd wife]
00. Daud, Atabeg of Mosul 1128-1144
00. Qara-Arslan, Atabeg of Mosul 1144-5 & 1145-67
00. dau
= Qilij-Arslan II, Sultan of Rum 1156-1192
00. Kai-Khosroe I, Sultan of Rum 1192-96 & 1204-1210
= Angelia Comnena, dau of Manuel Mavrozomes & Anonyma, dau of
Byzantine Emperor Manuel I
00. Kai-Qubad I, Sultan of Rum 1219-1236
= Khwand Khatun Mah Peri
00. Kai-Khosroe II, Sultan of Rum 1236-1245
= Ghazia Khatun, dau of Yussuf Al-Nasir, Sultan of Aleppo
00. Jigda Khanum (d1252)
= David VII "Ulu", King of Georgia
00. Rusudan
= Manuel I, Tyrant of Trebizonde
see pedigree for continuation
david hughes, Rdavi...@AOL.com
p.s. will be looking forward to see how Todd Farmerie dances around
this in his obvious personal agenda to discredit all of the royal
Jewish Davidic Dynasty links that keep popping up
Kelsey J. Williams
I have several comments on this line. See below:
HUGHE...@AOL.com (David Hughes) wrote in message news:<97b66013.04040...@posting.google.com>...
<snip>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> accidentally omitted a couple of generations above: Masud I, Sultan of
> Rum, and son, Qilij-Arslan II, for when I typed up the pedigree, upon
> typing Qilij-Arslan I, my eyes dropped down to Qilij-Arslan II and I
> continued with his son Kai-Khosroe I, however, in rechecking the
> pedigree I discovered another Davidic Dynasty descent-link, which is:
>
> 00. Azariah I, Jewish Exilarch (975), # 34 in succession from Bustanai
> 00. Daniel "Nasi", Patriarch of Palestine 1051-62
> 00. David [V], anti-exilarch 1081-1094
> 00. dau
> = Sokman I, Atabeg of Mosul 1101-4 [the Ortokides] [his 2nd wife]
> 00. Daud, Atabeg of Mosul 1128-1144
> 00. Qara-Arslan, Atabeg of Mosul 1144-5 & 1145-67
> 00. dau
> = Qilij-Arslan II, Sultan of Rum 1156-1192
What is your source for this marriage and for Kai-Khosroe being the
maternal grandson of Qara-Arslan? Rudt-Collenberg (table XIII [Q])
gives no wives for Qilij-Arslan.
> 00. Kai-Khosroe I, Sultan of Rum 1192-96 & 1204-1210
> = Angelia Comnena, dau of Manuel Mavrozomes & Anonyma, dau of
> Byzantine Emperor Manuel I
Rudt-Collenberg (table XIII [Q]) states that she was the unnamed
daughter of Manuel Mavrozomes and a great-grandaughter (not
grandaughter) of Emperor Manuel I. I would suppose that Mavrozomes
married a daughter of either Manuel I's legitimate daughter Maria or
his illegitimate son Alexios (see Sturdza, 277).
> 00. Kai-Qubad I, Sultan of Rum 1219-1236
> = Khwand Khatun Mah Peri
It should clarified that "Mah Peri" was her name after her marriage to
the Sultan. Her original name doesn't seem to be known by
Rudt-Collenberg but she is known to have been a daughter of Kir
Vartan, Lord of Galanoros (see tables II [H1] and XIII [Q]).
> 00. Kai-Khosroe II, Sultan of Rum 1236-1245
> = Ghazia Khatun, dau of Yussuf Al-Nasir, Sultan of Aleppo
Rudt-Collenberg calls her father "Al Aziz of Aleppo" (table XIII [Q]).
> 00. Jigda Khanum (d1252)
> = David VII "Ulu", King of Georgia
Toumanoff (pp. 124-125) gives no parentage for Djigda Khatun. What is
your source for her being the daughter of Kai-Khosroe II? It should
also be observed that all of the known children of King David are by
his wives Altun and Gontsa not by Djigda.
> 00. Rusudan
> = Manuel I, Tyrant of Trebizonde
Neither Toumanoff (p. 125) nor Sturdza (p. 280) make Rusudan, wife of
Manuel of Trebizond, the daughter of David of Georgia. Toumanoff
simply calls her "of Iberia" (p. 506) and Sturdza describes her as an
Armenian princess. What is your source for this connection?
> see pedigree for continuation
> david hughes, Rdavi...@AOL.com
> p.s. will be looking forward to see how Todd Farmerie dances around
> this in his obvious personal agenda to discredit all of the royal
> Jewish Davidic Dynasty links that keep popping up
I would suggest that in the future when posting lines such as this you
add your sources as well as the bare pedigree. All genealogical
debate rests upon knowledge of the sources involved.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Sources Cited:
Rudt-Collenberg = W. H. Rudt-Collenberg, _The Rupenides, Hethumides
and Lusignans: The Structure of the Armeno-Cilician Dynasties_ (Paris,
1963).
Sturdza = Mihail-Dimitri Sturdza, _Dictionnaire Historique et
Genealogique des Grandes Familles de Grece, d'Albanie et de
Constantinople_ (Paris, 1983).
Cyrille Toumanoff, _Manuel de Genealogie et de Chronologie pour
l'histoire de la Caucasie Chretienne (Armenie - Georgie - Albanie)_
(Roma, 1976).
Pierre Aronax
"David Hughes" <HUGHES...@AOL.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:3b81bf4f.0404...@posting.google.com...
> I have noticed that on google's medieval bulletin board that the
> frequent "know-it all" contributors pick and choose the sources they
> use to "prove" a point.
> Well, this Seljuk descent-line has been
> constructed just that way.
Except of course that not even a single source is "picked" in this
impossible Seljuk connection...
> I made note in generation # 10 Rusudan that
> "Bagration 3" identifies this Rusudan as the wife of Manuel I, Tyrant
My God! Why "tyrant"?
> Wow, I can do this too! And, voila!
And voilà: you can not.
> 13. Djiadjak (dau)
> = Alexis II, Tyrant of Trebizonde 1297-1300 [his 2nd =]
> 14. Eudoxia (dau)
> = Matthew Cantacuzene (d1357), son of John VI Cantacuzene [Iohannes
> Kantakuzenos], Byzantine Emperor 1347-54/5, abd, d1383, & Irene
> (d1363/79), dau of Andronicus (d1355), son of Ivan Asen III, King of
> Bulgaria, & Irene, dau of Byzantine Emperor Michael VIII
I will not comment on all what I snipped and which is highly commentable, if
not commendable. But for what is of that particular marriage I would be
curious to know what is the "picked" source which gives as wife of Matthaios
Kantakouzènos (who, by the way, died in 1391 and not in 1357) an Eudoxia
(sic! probably that means Eudokia) of Trebizond. The only wife of Matthaios
known by Byzantine sources is Eirènè Palaiologina.
> 15. Theodore Cantacuzene (d1410)
Simple guess: no source says that Théodôros was a son of Matthaios, although
at least that is not absolutely impossible (nevertheless, he was more
probably his grandson).
> = Helene, dau of Constantine Hypselantes & Eirene, dau of Demetrius
> Palaeologus (d1343) & .
Pure invention: the name of Théodôros' wife is not known. Dèmètrios
Palaiologos being either his grandfather or his great grandfather, he can
hardly have married Dèmètrios' granddaughter. The mention here of the name
"Hypsèlantès", unknown in Byzantine aristocracy, smells as some phanariot
fraud.
> 16. Eirene Cantacuzene
> = Djordge [George Brankovic], Despot of Serbia 1427-1456 [his 3rd =]
> [He =1 Eirene, dau of Demetrius of Morea; =2 Irene Komnenosi, dau of
> Byzantine Emperor Alexis IV]
Dèmètrios "of Morea" (id est despot Dèmètrios Palaiologos, son of Emperor
Manouèl II) was born in 1407 and so, simply from a chronological point of
view, can hardly have had a marriable girl before 1440 (not to speak of the
fact that he is known to have married for the first time in 1435). That is
of course absurd since at that time Eirènè was already the wife of the
despot of Serbia (in fact she married him in 1414), and since she died only
in 1457.
Etc.
Pierre
david hughes
I would suggest that in the future when posting lines such as this you
add your sources as well as the bare pedigree.
response:
odd that you should lecture me on sources; when in a recent follow-up
post you made in response to a post I made you gave completely bogus
non-existence sources to support your contentions to challenge mine:
from Kelsey J. Williams; Re: Christian I's ancestry; date: 19 Nov
2003, which I looked up and found at
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=christian+I%27s+ancestry+kelsey+j.+williams&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=5b747dd9.0311191038.6e0f2872%40posting.google.com&rnum=1
I can tell that you and Todd Farmerie support each others posts in
this newsgroup, so it is no surprise to me that you should pop up to
correct me. It is curious to me why someone would use bogus sources to
support their views. This is not scholarship, but what is it? You are
no "History Writer", though that is one of your pen-names to this
newsgroup; else you would not have documented your information with
bogus sources. This is no newsgroup, unless lies and deception are
news. I am beginning to wonder if there is some private agenda behind
the motives of you and your clique of frequent "know-it-all"
contributors to this newsgroup.
Oh, by the way, I do have access to "WorldCatalog" [OCLC] on my
computer, so I can look up to see if a source is genuine.
david hughes
Rdavi...@AOL.com
Suzanne
> > 00. Jigda Khanum (d1252)
> > = David VII "Ulu", King of Georgia
>
> Toumanoff (pp. 124-125) gives no parentage for Djigda Khatun. What is
> your source for her being the daughter of Kai-Khosroe II? It should
> also be observed that all of the known children of King David are by
> his wives Altun and Gontsa not by Djigda.
I found a different account of this family at
http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Georgia/georgia2.htm.
The sources are listed at
http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Georgia/georgia.htm
Suzanne
Kelsey J. Williams
Rdavi...@AOL.com (david hughes) wrote in message news:<5bed2444.04040...@posting.google.com>...
> Kelsey J. Williams wrote:
>
> I would suggest that in the future when posting lines such as this you
> add your sources as well as the bare pedigree.
>
> response:
> odd that you should lecture me on sources; when in a recent follow-up
> post you made in response to a post I made you gave completely bogus
> non-existence sources to support your contentions to challenge mine:
>
> from Kelsey J. Williams; Re: Christian I's ancestry; date: 19 Nov
> 2003, which I looked up and found at
> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=christian+I%27s+ancestry+kelsey+j.+williams&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=5b747dd9.0311191038.6e0f2872%40posting.google.com&rnum=1
>
It boggles my mind that you consider my post to be a challenge of
yours when it is obvious to anyone with the least familiarity with the
place & period that it is a joke and can be nothing else. I assume by
this that you have quite failed to comprehend my response to your
initial message about this post. For your benefit I will point out
the key figures in my post. I leave it to the newsgroup do decide
whether it is a joke or a cunningly constructed web of lies designed
to deceive you, the innocent genealogist:
1. King Lear = from Shakespeare, ultimately derived from the Welsh god
Llyr.
2. Brut = from Geoffrey of Monmouth, mythical Trojan settler in
Britain.
3. Hwell of Annwn = from the Mabinogion, mythical Welsh hero.
4 & 5. Arwen III & Aragon II of Gondor & Arnor = The first my own
invention, the second the well known fictional king in J.R.R.
Tolkien's _Lord of the Rings_.
Now I ask you: If you are as knowledgable and careful about early
Welsh genealogy as you claim would you have swallowed these obvious
impossibilities with the ease that you did?
Still, if you simply think it was a bad joke you may be right and I
would gladly proffer my apologies IF you will attempt to refrain from
your ridiculous and self-degrading attacks on various members of SGM
and try to raise the standards of your genealogical posts.
> I can tell that you and Todd Farmerie support each others posts in
> this newsgroup, so it is no surprise to me that you should pop up to
> correct me. It is curious to me why someone would use bogus sources to
> support their views.
As I have said, the bogus sources were not to support my views they
were part of the joke abovementioned.
> This is not scholarship, but what is it?
Humour, see above.
> You are
> no "History Writer", though that is one of your pen-names to this
> newsgroup;
You are incorrect. I have never used any pen-names on SGM (or
anywhere else) not do I intend to start. This presents a certain
contrast to yourself . . . . David Hughes / Regis Devoe.
> else you would not have documented your information with
> bogus sources.
I should observe that by providing obviously false documentation I was
attempting to prevent my joke from being taken seriously. Someone who
was truly attempting to "deceive" you would have quoted from
legitimate sources, sure in the knowledge that you would not check
them and thus reveal the fraud.
> This is no newsgroup, unless lies and deception are
> news. I am beginning to wonder if there is some private agenda behind
> the motives of you and your clique of frequent "know-it-all"
> contributors to this newsgroup.
How can we be a "clique" if, as you have implied elsewhere, we are all
the same person? There is no "private agenda" on this newsgroup. The
"know-it-all" contributors you so frequently revile are merely
attempting to construct logical, proven genealogies rather than airy
castles of the imagination.
> Oh, by the way, I do have access to "WorldCatalog" [OCLC] on my
> computer, so I can look up to see if a source is genuine.
I'm sure we are all glad to know that.
>
> david hughes
> Rdavi...@AOL.com
After reading over your post once again it strikes me that this is a
bit of a sidestep away from my original questions. Now that we have
gotten character assassination out of the way I repeat to you my
initial _factual_ questions concerning the highly suspicious Seljukid
descent you posted. Before you step into the midst of another tirade
against the "conspirators" may I remind you that:
1) The burden of proof rests with the inventor of the new line, i.e.
you must prove that the line is true rather than I prove that the line
is false.
2) For any data to be taken seriously it must be backed up with
documentation. The pedigrees you have posted, curious though they
are, need sources.
3) If there is any ambiguity or uncertainty about a portion of the
pedigree a careful explanation of the nature of this ambiguity or
uncertainty should be presented.
etc., etc.
I trust that this fully explains matters.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Todd A. Farmerie
> It boggles my mind that you consider my post to be a challenge of
> yours when it is obvious to anyone with the least familiarity with the
> place & period that it is a joke and can be nothing else.
As I have commented at times in the past, as graifying as they
may seem, joke genealogies can be problematic, because invariably
_someone_ won't get the joke. At least in this case, the
joke-lineage was not believed - you are lucky it didn't end up on
someone's web page.
>
>>Oh, by the way, I do have access to "WorldCatalog" [OCLC] on my
>>computer, so I can look up to see if a source is genuine.
>
>>david hughes
>>Rdavi...@AOL.com
That is WorldCat (part of OCLC's FirstSearch). For those not
familiar with it, this is a private database compiling the
catalogues of most American public and private libraries, as well
as a few from other countries. It can be quite useful in
determining which libraries have what works (although it is less
useful in finding periodicals, as it does not distinguish which
specific volumes and issues are held by individual libraries).
It can also be used, as here, to confirm bibliographic
information and citations. While most libraries subscribe to
WorldCat, the access they allow (and pay OCLC to allow) to
patrons varies (some limiting access to their own Interlibrary
Loan staff, some with it available on in-library terminals, and
some (like my local public library) allowing library card access
from home). One should keep in mind, though, that it is not a
complete list of published sources, and failure to find a work in
WorldCat need not mean the source doesn't exist.
taf
Pierre Aronax
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:4074111C...@interfold.com...
> Kelsey J. Williams wrote:
<...>
> One should keep in mind, though, that it is not a
> complete list of published sources, and failure to find a work in
> WorldCat need not mean the source doesn't exist.
Not to speak of the fact that, a "source" being in this catalog will not
prove it to be "genuine": probably "Alice in Wonderland" will be find in
this kind of catalog, and that does not make it a genuine source.
Pierre
History Writer
> this newsgroup, so it is no surprise to me that you should pop up to
> correct me. It is curious to me why someone would use bogus sources to
> support their views. This is not scholarship, but what is it? You are
> no "History Writer", though that is one of your pen-names to this
> newsgroup; else you would not have documented your information with
> bogus sources. This is no newsgroup, unless lies and deception are
> news.
David: I can assure you that Kelsey Williams is not "History Writer".
I am. We have e-mailed off line on Inca descents, I believe.
Sources are important, as is professional politeness.
The Williams Family
You're certainly right about the nature of joke genealogies. I will most definitely curb my untimely levity in the future!
As far as bibliographic sources go my own preferences are the Oxford Libraries Information System:
> http://library.ox.ac.uk/
>
The U.S. Library of Congress Catalog:
The COPAC University Research Library Catalogue:
> http://copac.ac.uk/copac/
>
And the British Library Public Catalogue:
> http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/blpc.html
>
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
> from home). One should keep in mind, though, that it is not a
> complete list of published sources, and failure to find a work in
> WorldCat need not mean the source doesn't exist.
>
> taf