Anne Plantagenet Line Mistake?
Murry
Duke and Duchess of York Via their daughter ANNE PLANTAGENET and her second
husband Sir Thomas St. Leger.
I have the following lineage:
Anne Saint Leger (b Abt. 1466) m. Sir George Manners, 12th Lord Roos (b.
Abt. 1465)
Their son
Thomas Manners, 1st Earl of Rutland (b. Bef. 1488) m. Eleanor Paston
Their daughter
Elizabeth Manners (b. Abt. 1506) m. John Savage (b. Abt. 1505)
Their son
John Savage (b. Abt. 1550) m. Mary Allington (b. Abt. 1548)
Their son
Thomas Savage (b. Abt. 1586) m. Elizabeth Darcy (b. Abt. 1584)
Their son
Thomas Savage (b. Abt. 1611) m. Faith Hutchinson (b. August 14, 1617)
My biggest question here is Elizabeth Manners? The siblings I have for her
are all born much later. In the 1520's. Then she had her child at ~44
years old. I know many people have "Plantagenet Roll of the Blood Royal:
The Anne of Exeter Volume, Containing the Descendants of Anne
(Plantagenet), Duchess of Exeter". Does it site Elizabeth manners as the
child of Eleanor Paxton and Thomas Manners? Please help.
Brandi Murry
mur...@mailbox.bellatlantic.net
or
bshe...@bellatlantic.net
Leo van de Pas
Where did you find Elizabeth Manners' birth of 'about 1506'?
Burke's Peerage 1938 page 2149 makes her a daughter of Thomas Manners,
1st Earl of Rutland, and Eleanor Paston, as does the "The Anne of Exeter
Volume".
Here we have two sources confirming your line.
Thomas Manners and Eleanor Paston married 'before 1523' and had ten
children,
ranging from Henry born 1526 to Oliver born in 1543. This should show that
Elizabeth cannot be born in or about 1506. Her father married his first wife
in 1513,
and in 1506 was 'older than 14'., being born 'before 1492' . His parents
married
'circa 1490'. Which makes him 15 at the most. Where did you find his birth
as before
1488?
I checked, also with Gerald Paget's book on the ancestors of Prince Charles,
Sir Thomas St.Leger married Anne of York in 1472 or 1473, and their daughter
Anne was born in 1476. where did you find her being born about 1466?
To return to Elizabeth Manners, I have several children for her but, so far,
I have
the year of birth for only one. This is Margaret Savage, according to the
Complete Peerage, Volume II page 300, born in 1549.
I don't know why you did not give the later generations their titles and
simply recorded them as John, Thomas and Thomas Savage. Here is my version,
and this may give you a problem
with the last generation.
Elisabeth Manners was mother of
Sir John Savage, 1st Baronet
buried 14 July 1615 at Macclesfield
he married before 1582
Mary Allington
she was mention on 16 May 1636 (i.e. she was alive on that date)
daughter of Richard Allington and Jane Cordell
they were parents of
Sir Thomas Savage, Viscount Savage, 2nd Baronet
born circa 1586, died 20 November 1635 Tower Hill
married 14 May 1602
Elizabeth Darcy, Countess Rivers
she died 9 March 1650, buried at St.Osyths, Essex
daughter of Thomas Darcy, Earl Rivers, and Mary Kitson
they are parents of
Thomas Savage, of Beeston
married to Elizabeth Whitmore
In the Complete Peerage Volume VII page 431 is mentioned the marriage
of a daughter of Thomas Savage and Elizabeth Whitmore. Usually the Complete
Peerage states so-and-so, daughter of so-and-so and his 2nd wife so-and-so.
This was not done in this case, and so I wonder, your Faith Hutchinson, was
she
a mistress? Or is her name wrong?
Hope this helps a bit? Let me know about Faith Hutchinson, I am curious.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Perth, Western Australia
In your sample you
Leo van de Pas
Anne of York)
a son of John St.Leger, of Ulcomb, Kent, and Margery Donnett (she is a
daughter of
James Donnett.
This is all I have in regards of ancestors. However, I have two other sons
of John St.Leger
and Margery Donnett.
According to Cahiers de Saint Louis page 895 is mentioned a Bartholomew.
According to Gerald Paget's book on the ancestors of Prince Charles,
John St.Leger is ancestor Q113601, and his son Ralph, is P56801.
I don't know about any sister.
Hope this helps (a little bit?)
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: Mardi Carter <mard...@valley-internet.net>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Anne Plantagenet Line Mistake?
> I am very interested in the St. Leger line represented by Sir Thomas who
m.
> Anne Plantagenet. I believe he is brother of Florence who m. John de
Clifford,
> of Bobbing Court, co. Kent. This St. Leger family is from Ulcombe, co.
Kent.
> Does anyone have this line to share?
>
> Mardi
Mardi Carter
Polgara
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Murry <mur...@bellatlantic.net>
> To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 7:11 AM
> Subject: Anne Plantagenet Line Mistake?
[snip]
Brandi Murry wrote [in part]:
> > > Thomas Savage (b. Abt. 1611) m. Faith Hutchinson (b. August 14, 1617)
[snip]
> > Brandi Murry
> > mur...@mailbox.bellatlantic.net
> > or
> > bshe...@bellatlantic.net
______________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: Leo van de Pas <leov...@iinet.net.au>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: Anne Plantagenet Line Mistake?
[snip]
Leo van de Pas wrote [in part]:
> In the Complete Peerage Volume VII page 431 is mentioned the marriage
> of a daughter of Thomas Savage and Elizabeth Whitmore. Usually the
Complete
> Peerage states so-and-so, daughter of so-and-so and his 2nd wife
so-and-so.
> This was not done in this case, and so I wonder, your Faith Hutchinson,
was
> she a mistress? Or is her name wrong?
> Hope this helps a bit? Let me know about Faith Hutchinson, I am curious.
> Best wishes
> Leo van de Pas
> Perth, Western Australia
Thomas Savage (cir 1608-1681/82), prominent individual in and around Boston,
MA, married Faith HUTCHINSON (1617-1651) in 1637 in MA. Faith was the
daughter of William HUTCHINSON and Anne MARBURY (the American religious
reformer). Thomas later married Mary SYMMES in 1652. His father *may* have
been William SAVAGE. The source of this information is: James Savage. A
Genealogical Dictionary of the First Settlers of New England, Showing Three
Generations of Those Who Came Before May 1692, on the Basis of Farmer's
Register.
I am not descended from Thomas and Faith, but from Faith's brother Edward
HUTCHINSON Sr, so I do not have any further information on Thomas's ancestry
nor on his descendants. However, I do have a fair amount of information on
the HUTCHINSON and allied families.
I think the confusion here lies not in the spouses of Thomas SAVAGE, but in
the individual of Thomas SAVAGE himself. The Thomas who married Faith is
possibly being confused with the Thomas who is descended from the MANNERS
family as outlined by Mr. van de Pas. Faith HUTCHINSON does not appear to
have ever been a mistress to any man named Thomas SAVAGE; I am sure a search
of the appropriate records will reveal the necessary marriage confirmation.
(This is something I have not done yet as I have not worked on this line is
some time.)
I believe I tried to contact you Brandi, sometime before Xmas but my
messages to you kept bouncing. Please feel free to contact me at the
address below and perhaps we can exchange information. I have further
sources of information on this family but have not been integrated into my
database. (Paper, paper, paper everywhere!)
Hope this helps (and doesn't make things worse!). :->
Laurelee Walkey
pol...@bcgrizzly.com
[Formatting of the quoted posts has been modified from the original]
Larry Coats
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I have an Eleanor Manners, d. 1547, sister to Thomas, 1st Earl of Rutland, who
married John Bourchier, 2d Earl of Bath(d. 1560). They had a dau., Cecilia
Bourchier, who married Thomas Peyton, Customs Officer for Plymouth(referred to
as "Of St. Edmondsbury", Suffolk). They had a son, Sir Henry Peyton, who seems
to have married the widow of Andrew Rogers of Brianston, Dorset. Her name was
Mary Seymour, dau. of Edward Seymour, Duke of Somerset(executed 1552)by his
wife, Ann Stanhope. However, my sources do not extend the lineage beyond the
marriage of Sir Henry Peyton to Mary Seymour. Was wondering if anyone has
information on these Peytons and whether Sir Henry and his wife left any
children?
Murry wrote:
> I am looking at the descendants of CECILY NEVILLE and RICHARD PLANTAGENET,
> Duke and Duchess of York Via their daughter ANNE PLANTAGENET and her second
> husband Sir Thomas St. Leger.
>
> I have the following lineage:
>
> Anne Saint Leger (b Abt. 1466) m. Sir George Manners, 12th Lord Roos (b.
> Abt. 1465)
> Their son
> Thomas Manners, 1st Earl of Rutland (b. Bef. 1488) m. Eleanor Paston
> Their daughter
> Elizabeth Manners (b. Abt. 1506) m. John Savage (b. Abt. 1505)
> Their son
> John Savage (b. Abt. 1550) m. Mary Allington (b. Abt. 1548)
> Their son
> Thomas Savage (b. Abt. 1586) m. Elizabeth Darcy (b. Abt. 1584)
> Their son
> Thomas Savage (b. Abt. 1611) m. Faith Hutchinson (b. August 14, 1617)
>
> My biggest question here is Elizabeth Manners? The siblings I have for her
> are all born much later. In the 1520's. Then she had her child at ~44
> years old. I know many people have "Plantagenet Roll of the Blood Royal:
> The Anne of Exeter Volume, Containing the Descendants of Anne
> (Plantagenet), Duchess of Exeter". Does it site Elizabeth manners as the
> child of Eleanor Paxton and Thomas Manners? Please help.
>
> Brandi Murry
> mur...@mailbox.bellatlantic.net
> or
> bshe...@bellatlantic.net
--
Larry D. Hamilton Coats
P.O. Box 823
Aspermont, TX 79502
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Leo van de Pas
The Complete Peerage Volume VII page 431 states that
Marmaduke Langdale, Baron Langdale, married
Elizabeth daughter of the Hon. Thomas Savage (second son of Thomas,
1st Viscount Savage) by Elizabeth daughter and co-heir of William Whitmore.
This could imply that Thomas Savage (nobody called him the Hon. Thomas
Savage)
who married Faith Hutchinson, is not the son of the Viscount Savage, and
therefor
does not belong in the tree displayed, resulting that the descendants of
Thomas Savage and Faith Hutchinson loose their royal link.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: Polgara <pol...@bcgrizzly.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 12:31 AM
Subject: Re:Thomas SAVAGE & Faith HUTCHINSON [Was: Anne Plantagenet Line
Mistake?]
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Murry <mur...@bellatlantic.net>
> > To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 7:11 AM
> > Subject: Anne Plantagenet Line Mistake?
>
> [snip]
>
> Brandi Murry wrote [in part]:
>
> > > > Thomas Savage (b. Abt. 1611) m. Faith Hutchinson (b. August 14,
1617)
>
> [snip]
>
> > > Brandi Murry
> > > mur...@mailbox.bellatlantic.net
> > > or
> > > bshe...@bellatlantic.net
>
William Addams Reitwiesner
>I have an Eleanor Manners, d. 1547, sister to Thomas, 1st Earl of Rutland, who
>married John Bourchier, 2d Earl of Bath(d. 1560). They had a dau., Cecilia
>Bourchier, who married Thomas Peyton, Customs Officer for Plymouth(referred to
>as "Of St. Edmondsbury", Suffolk). They had a son, Sir Henry Peyton, who seems
>to have married the widow of Andrew Rogers of Brianston, Dorset. Her name was
>Mary Seymour, dau. of Edward Seymour, Duke of Somerset(executed 1552)by his
>wife, Ann Stanhope. However, my sources do not extend the lineage beyond the
>marriage of Sir Henry Peyton to Mary Seymour. Was wondering if anyone has
>information on these Peytons and whether Sir Henry and his wife left any
>children?
Ruvigny's *Exeter*, p. 527, refers only to "Descendants, if any, of ...
Lady Cecilia Bourchier, wife of Thomas Peyton of Plymouth, Customer". This
is the formula that Ruvigny used to show that he couldn't find any evidence
the couple had children, but he also couldn't find any evidence the couple
had NO children. In other words, Ruvigny makes no mention of your "Sir
Henry".
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."
William Addams Reitwiesner
>I am looking at the descendants of CECILY NEVILLE and RICHARD PLANTAGENET,
>Duke and Duchess of York Via their daughter ANNE PLANTAGENET and her second
>husband Sir Thomas St. Leger.
>
>I have the following lineage:
>
>Anne Saint Leger (b Abt. 1466) m. Sir George Manners, 12th Lord Roos (b.
>Abt. 1465)
>Their son
>Thomas Manners, 1st Earl of Rutland (b. Bef. 1488) m. Eleanor Paston
>Their daughter
>Elizabeth Manners (b. Abt. 1506) m. John Savage (b. Abt. 1505)
>Their son
>John Savage (b. Abt. 1550) m. Mary Allington (b. Abt. 1548)
>Their son
>Thomas Savage (b. Abt. 1586) m. Elizabeth Darcy (b. Abt. 1584)
>Their son
>Thomas Savage (b. Abt. 1611) m. Faith Hutchinson (b. August 14, 1617)
>
>My biggest question here is Elizabeth Manners? The siblings I have for her
>are all born much later. In the 1520's. Then she had her child at ~44
>years old. I know many people have "Plantagenet Roll of the Blood Royal:
>The Anne of Exeter Volume, Containing the Descendants of Anne
>(Plantagenet), Duchess of Exeter". Does it site Elizabeth manners as the
>child of Eleanor Paxton and Thomas Manners? Please help.
The problem is with the dates you give, as they're way off the mark, and
have served to mislead you. Where did you get the dates from?
Another problem is that you've left off a number of titles of the people
involved. Let me redo that segment, with correct titles, full dates,
citations, and commentary:
>Anne Saint Leger (b Abt. 1466) m. Sir George Manners, 12th Lord Roos (b.
>Abt. 1465)
Correctly Anne St. Leger (b. 1476, d. 21 April 1526) m. about 1490 George
Manners, 11th Lord Ros (b. in or shortly bef. 1470, d. 27 Oct. 1513 in
France or perhaps at Holywell in Shoreditch). CP XI:107-108, Ruvigny II.
Note that Anne and George were some five to ten years younger than you
claimed.
>Their son
>Thomas Manners, 1st Earl of Rutland (b. Bef. 1488) m. Eleanor Paston
Thomas Manners, 12th Lord Ros, created 1st Earl of Rutland on 18 June 1525
(b. before 1492, d. 20 Sept. 1543) m. before 1523 (but after 26 Oct. 1513),
as his second wife, Eleanor Paston (d. at Holywell in Shoreditch and buried
at St. Leonards, Shoreditch, in 1551). CP XI:253-255, Ruvigny II. Note
that the date you give (below) for the birth of their daughter Elizabeth is
impossible, as his first wife (by whom he had no children) was still living
on 26 Oct. 1513. Note also that Elizabeth was the youngest daughter of
Thomas and Eleanor's nine children.
>Their daughter
>Elizabeth Manners (b. Abt. 1506) m. John Savage (b. Abt. 1505)
Elizabeth Manners m. Sir John Savage (d. 5 Dec. 1597). Ruvigny II and
XXXV.
>Their son
>John Savage (b. Abt. 1550) m. Mary Allington (b. Abt. 1548)
John Savage, created a Baronet 29 June 1611 (bur. 14 July 1616 at
Macclesfield), m. before 1582 Mary Allington (admonition dated 16 May
1636). CB I:27, Ruvigny XXXV.
>Their son
>Thomas Savage (b. Abt. 1586) m. Elizabeth Darcy (b. Abt. 1584)
Sir Thomas Savage, 2nd Bart., created 1st Viscount Savage on 4 Nov. 1626
(b. about 1586, d. 20. Nov. 1635 of the running gout at his home on Tower
Hill), m. 14 May 1602 Elizabeth Darcy, created Countess Rivers (ad pers.)
on 21 Apr. 1641 (b. 1581, d. 9 March 1650/1). CP XI:458 and XI:26, Ruvigny
XXXV.
>Their son
>Thomas Savage (b. Abt. 1611) m. Faith Hutchinson (b. August 14, 1617)
No, their son Hon Thomas Savage, of Beeston Castle, co. Chester, married
Elizabeth Whitmore. Ruvigny XXXVI. Where did you get the idea he married
Faith Hutchinson?
With Elizabeth Manners' birthdate shifted to where it belongs. i.e., some
twenty-five years after you give it, the chronology works. However it
looks like you're tracing the ancestry of the wrong Thomas Savage.
The source I cite as "Ruvigny" is the item you requested, *Plantagenet Roll
of the Blood Royal: The Anne of Exeter Volume, Containing the Descendants
of Anne (Plantagenet), Duchess of Exeter* [reprinted Baltimore:
Genealogical, 1994]. The Roman numerals refer to the tables at the front
of that work.