Did Elizabeth Eure marry thrice?

[Kevan Barton via]

Folks,



Running into a bit of confusion.



I see,



Elizabeth Eure (d 14 Mar 1481/2), daughter of Ralph Eure of Witton Castle (d
Towton 9 Mar 1461) by Eleanor Greystock, married

1 - Sir William Bulmer

2 - Sir James Strangeways

3 - John Ellerker



However, I've also seen an Elizabeth Eure with the same death date as the
daughter of Robert Eure by Elizabeth Mallory.



What is the truth on the above?



Cheers,

Kevan

[John Watson]

Hi Kevan,

Complete Peerage gives two different versions of the lady's parentage, although I believe the version in volume 2 is correct.

Sir William Bulmer, of Wilton, married (cont. 28 April 1431, to "wed afore Midsomer next commyng"), Elizabeth, daughter of Robert Eure, of Bradley, co. Durham, by Elizabeth, said to have been daughter and heir of R. Mallory. He died in 1463. Admon. 14 November 1463 to his widow. She died 13 or 14 March 1482 [1].

Sir James Strangways married, secondly, Elizabeth, widow of Sir William Bulmer, of Wilton, co. York, and daughter of Henry Eure, of Bradley, co. Durham. She died 13 or 14 Mar. 1482. Will of Elizabeth "Strangwis," directing her burial to be in the parish church of Upleatham, co. York, and appointing "Radulphum Bulmer militem filium meum" her executor, dated 12 Mar. 1482, proved 2 May 1482 [2].

Sources:
1. Complete Peerage, vol. 2, 418.
2. Complete Peerage, vol. 4, 66, note (e).

Regards,

John

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Kevan ~

My research indicates that Elizabeth Eure married (1st) in 1431 Sir William Bulmer (died 1463) and (2nd) before 1468 Sir James Strangeways (died 1480), Speaker of the House of Commons. She died testate in 1482.

Evidence of Elizabeth Eure's parentage is found in three different visitations:

1. Glover & St. George, Vis. of Yorkshire 1584-5, 1612 (1875): 202-204 (Strangwayes ped.: "Sir James Strangwayes, Knt. [1] = Elizabeth, dau. (and one of the heirs) of Philip Lord Darcy & Mennell, [2] = married Elizabeth, daughter of Robt. Evers"), 607-617 (Eure ped.: "Elizabeth [Eure], mar. Sir James Strangways").

2. Flower, Vis. of Yorkshire 1563-4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 43-44 (Bulmer ped.: "Sir William Boulmer Knight son & heyr to Sir Raff. = Elsabeth doter to Sir Robert Every of Bradley Knight."), 111-113 (Eure ped.: "Elizabeth [Euers] wyff to Sir James Stranguysh."), 299-302 (Strangewayes ped.: "Dominus Jacobus Stranguysh son of James. [1] = Elsabeta filia et una heredum Phelipi Domini Darcy & Menell, [2] = Elsabeth filia Roberti Evers.").

3. Harvey et al., Vis. of the North 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930): 106-109 (c.1480-1500 Vis. of the North) (Strangwais ped.: "Dominus Iacobus Strangwais miles [1] = Elizabeth filia et vne heredum Philippi domini Darcy de Menille, [2] = Elizabeth filia Roberti Yvers").

An abstract of the marriage contract of William Bulmer and Elizabeth, daughter of Robert Eure, is published in Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper 33 (1872): 146-147. The contract is dated in 1431, when William Bulmer was about aged 7. Elizabeth must have then been of similar age.

I've copied below my current file account regarding Elizabeth Eure, her parents, and her husbands. For further particulars of the Eure family, please see my book, Royal Ancestry, 5 volume set, published in 2013.

As for the Elizabeth Eure who married John Ellerker, she appears to have been a cousin to Elizabeth Eure who married Sir William Bulmer and Sir James Strangeways.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

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RALPH EURE, Knt., of Witton (in Weardale), Durham, married KATHERINE ATON (desc. King William the Conqueror).
WILLIAM EURE, Knt., of Witton (in Weardale), Durham, married MAUD FITZ HUGH (desc. King William the Conqueror) [see EURE 9].

10. ROBERT EURE, Esq., of Bradley, Durham, 6th son. He married ANNE TEMPEST, daughter of Robert Tempest, of the Bishoprick, co. Durham. They had three sons, Robert, Ralph, and William, and one daughter, Elizabeth. In 1455 his father settled the manor of Malton, Yorkshire on his brother, Henry, with remainder to his other brother, John, and then to Robert. In 1461 his father made releases to him and his brothers, Henry and William, clerk. Robert Eure, Esq., of Bradley, Durham and his son and heir, Robert, acting as feoffees of William Bulmer, Knt., presented to the church of Bulmer, Yorkshire 24 July 1468. Robert's reversionary interest in Malton was mentioned in the 1476 will of his brother, Henry Eure, Esq., of Malton.

References:

Thoresby, Ducatus Leodiensis (1816): 19-20 (Eure ped.). Testamenta Eboracensia 3 (Surtees Soc. 45) (1865): 222-225 (will of Henry Eure, Esq.); 4 (Surtees Soc. 53) (1869): 40-41. Glover & St. George, Vis. of Yorkshire 1584-5, 1612 (1875): 607-617 (Eure ped.: "Robert Eure (1471) mar.... dau. of Robert Tempest, of..."). Flower, Vis. of Yorkshire 1563-4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 111-113 (Eure ped.: "Robert Euers dyd mary... the dougher of Robert Tempest."). Clay, Extinct & Dormant Peerages (1913): 53-60 (sub Eure). VCH Yorkshire N.R. 1 (1914): 537-538. Harvey et al. Vis. of the North 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930): 110-111 (Yvers ped.: "Robertus Yvers = Anna filia Robert Tempest de (episcopatu)"). Wedgwood, Hist. of Parl. 1 (1936): 306 (biog. of Sir William Eure).

11. ELIZABETH EURE, married (1st) by marriage contract dated 28 April 1431 (contract states they were to be married by 24 June 1431) WILLIAM BULMER, Knt., of Wilton, Yorkshire, son and heir of Ralph Bulmer, Knt., of Wilton, Yorkshire, by Margaret, daughter of William Hilton, Knt. He was born about 1424 (aged 20 in 1444). They had four sons, Ralph, Knt., Robert, William, and John, and three daughters, Jane (wife of William Robinson), Anne (wife of Marmaduke de la River) and Ellen. SIR WILLIAM BULMER died shortly before 14 Nov. 1463 (date of administration on his estate). His widow, Elizabeth, married (2nd) before 1468 (as his 2nd wife) JAMES STRANGEWAYS, Knt., of West Harlsey (in Osmotherley), Acklam, Aislaby, Boynton, Greenhow, Hallikeld, Notton, Potto, Seamer, Upsall, Warlaby, and Whorlton, Yorkshire, Keeper of Fronsac, 1439-41, Sheriff of Yorkshire, 1445-6, 1452-3, 1468-9, Knight of the Shire for Yorkshire, 1449, 1460-2, Speaker of the House of Commons, 1461-2, Chief Justice of Durham, 1461-71, son and heir of James Strangeways, Knt., of West Harlsey (in Osmotherley) and Whorlton, Yorkshire, Justice of the Common Pleas, Justice of North Wales, King's Serjeant-at-law, by Joan, daughter of Nicholas Orell. He was born in 1415. They had two sons, Ralph and Edward (Doctor of the law), and one daughter, Felice (wife of William Aske, Esq.). He married (1st) before 27 Sept. 1431 ELIZABETH DARCY (living 1 Sept. 1458, and died before Nov. 1461), by whom he had eleven sons, Richard, Knt., James, William, Philip, George [Rector of Bulmer, Yorkshire], Christopher, Henry, John, Robert, Thomas, and Thomas (2nd of name), and four daughters, Margery (wife of John Ingleby and Richard Welles, Knt., Lord Welles and Willoughby [see WELLES 13.i]), Eleanor (wife of Edmund Mauleverer), Joan, and Elizabeth (wife of Marmaduke Clervaux). In 1459 he was negotiating with the King of Scots. He fought at the Battle of Wakefield in 1460. He was twice sent as ambassador to Scotland in 1464. In 1466 he and his son, Richard, were jointly negotiating the truce with the Scots at Newcastle. He was removed from the bench at the Readeption. He presented to the chapel in Whorlton Castle, Yorkshire in 1475. He and his 2nd wife, Elizabeth, were members of the Guild Corpus Christi at York. SIR JAMES STRANGEWAYS died testate shortly before 20 August 1480, and was buried in the abbey church of St. Mary Overy, Southwark, Surrey. His widow, Elizabeth, died 13 (or 14) March 1482. She left a will dated 12 March 1482, proved 2 May 1482, requesting burial in the parish church ofr Upleatham, Yorkshire.

References:

Coll. Top. et Gen. 2 (1835): 161-162 (Strangways ped.); 8 (1843): 69-71 (sub Bulmer). Testamenta Eboracensia 2 (Surtees Soc. 30) (1855): 247; 4 (Surtees Soc. 53) (1869): 40-41. Annual Rpt. of the Deputy Keeper 33 (1872): 146-147. Skaife, Reg. of the Guild of Corpus Christi in the City of York (Surtees Soc. 57) (1872): 75. Glover & St. George, Vis. of Yorkshire 1584-5, 1612 (1875): 202-204 (Strangwayes ped.: "Sir James Strangwayes, Knt. [1] = Elizabeth, dau. (and one of the heirs) of Philip Lord Darcy & Mennell, [2] = married Elizabeth, daughter of Robt. Evers") (Strangwayes arms: Sable, 2 lions passant paly argent and gules, a crescent for difference), 607-617 (Eure ped.: "Elizabeth [Eure], mar. Sir James Strangways"). Flower, Vis. of Yorkshire 1563-4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 43-44 (Bulmer ped.: "Sir William Boulmer Knight son & heyr to Sir Raff. = Elsabeth doter to Sir Robert Every of Bradley Knight."), 91-92 (Darcy ped.: "Dame Elsabeth [Darcy] wyff to James Stranguysh."), 111-113 (Eure ped.: "Elizabeth [Euers] wyff to Sir James Stranguysh."), 299-302 (Strangewayes ped.: "Dominus Jacobus Stranguysh son of James. [1] = Elsabeta filia et una heredum Phelipi Domini Darcy & Menell, [2] = Elsabeth filia Roberti Evers."). List of Sheriffs for England & Wales (PRO Lists and Indexes 9) (1898): 162. Hodgson, Hist. of Northumberland 5 (1899): 411. Dugdale, Dugdale's Vis. of Yorkshire 2 (1907): 307-309 (Strangways ped.). D.N.B. 19 (1909): 29. C.P. 2 (1912): 418; 4 (1916): 66-68 (sub Darcy); 12(2) (1959): 445-446 (sub Welles). VCH Hertford 3 (1912): 451. Clay, Extinct & Dormant Peerages (1913): 41-42 (sub Darcy). VCH York N.R. 1 (1914): 418-433. Papal Regs.: Letters 11 (1921): 337-338. Harvey et al., Vis. of the North 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930): 106-109 (c.1480-1500 Vis. of the North) (Strangwais ped.: "Dominus Iacobus Strangwais miles [1] = Elizabeth filia et vne heredum Philippi domini Darcy de Menille, [2] = Elizabeth filia Roberti Yvers"). Clay, Yorkshire Deeds 7 (1932): 141-142. Wedgwood, Hist. of Parl. 1 (1936): 820-821 (biog. of Sir James Strangways) (identifies 2nd wife as Anne, daughter of Robert Conyers, of Ormesby, cites "Rolls, passim"). Walker, Yorkshire Peds. 1 (H.S.P. 94) (1942): 72-81 (Bulmer ped.). Jacob, Reg. of Henry Chichele 4 (Canterbury & York Soc. 47) (1947): 241. Yorkshire Arch. Jour. 39 (1958): 455-482 (biog. of Sir James Strangeways). Langley, Reg. of Thomas Langley Bishop of Durham 3 (Surtees Soc. 169) (1959): 62-64. Roskell, Parl. & Politics in Late Medieval England 2 (1981): 279-306 (biog. of Sir James Strangeways). Cal. IPM 23 (2004): 358-361. Davison, Saxon Survivors? (2007): 56, 105 (Bulmer ped.).

[John Watson]

Dear Douglas,

There appears to be some mix up in your files.

Robert Eure of Bradley, father of the Elizabeth Eure who married firstly Sir William Bulmer and secondly Sir James Strangways was the son of Sir Ralph Eure and Catherine Aton.

The inquisition post mortem for Durham for Sir Ralph Eure, taken on 7 September 1422 in Darlington it was found that "Long before his death he had conveyed his manors of Kymblesworth and Bradley, and lands between Herperleyburn and Stanhope Park to trustees to the use of his son Robert Eure and Elizabeth his wife, and the heirs of the said Robert by the said Elizabeth, with remainder over to the heirs of the body of the said Robert, and to the right heirs of him the said Ralph Eure."
Forty-Fifth Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records (1885), 190.
https://books.google.com/books?id=SPwUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA190

Robert Eure of Bradley married Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Thomas Mallory, and grand-daughter and heiress of Alice Driby, from whom she inherited lands in Leicestershire, including the manor of Breedon-on-the-Hill.

Alice widow of Ralph Basset, knight. Writ 14 Oct. 1412.
Leicester. Inquisition. Ashby de la Zouch 17 Nov
She held a third part of the manors of Sapcote and Stanton in dower of Ralph of the inheritance of Elizabeth, wife of Richard Lord Grey, knight, daughter of Ralph, and Robert Moton, knight, son of William, son of Alice his other daughter. Sapcote is held of the king of the duchy of Lancaster of the honour of Leicester by knight service, annual value of the third part £6, Stanton of the heir of Baldwin de Frevyll, service unknown, annual value of the third part 100s. She once held in fee tail the manor of Breedon on the Hill extending in Somerby, Little Dalby, Holwell and Ab Kettleby. She granted it to Roger Floure and others and his heirs and assigns, and they regranted it to her for life, and so she held it, annual value 40 marks. She died on 12 Oct. last. Elizabeth daughter of Thomas Malory, knight, her son, is her next heir, aged 11 years and more.
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 19, No. 1031.
http://www.history.ac.uk/cipm-19-part-ix

Robert Eure and his wife Elizabeth Mallory were both born around 1400 - Robert's elder brother William was born in 1396, and Elizabeth was stated to be aged 11 in 1412.

Robert Eure lived to be about 80 years old. He outlived his son and heir Robert, and his ipm for Leicestershire dated 20 April 1480, found that he died 3 Feb. 19 Edward IV, seised of Breedon by the courtesy of England after the death of Elizabeth, his wife. His granddaughters, Anne Constable, aged 17, Isabel Constable, aged 15 1/2, and Elena Thwaites, aged 13, are his next heirs, daughters of Robert Evere, deceased, son and heir of the said Robert Evere named in this writ.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/1999-06/0930028621

The younger Robert Eure's widow, Ellen Ingleby married secondly, Sir John Constable of Halsham (d. 1473). Two of her daughters married two sons of John Constable and the third married Henry Thwaites.

In 1480-83, Ralph Constable and Anne, his wife; William Constable and Isabel, his wife; and Henry Thwaytes and Ellen, his wife, daughters of Robert, son of Elizabeth Ivers, sued Ralph Ivers concerning detention of deeds relating to the manor of Bredon, Leicestershire.
Court of Chancery: Six Clerks Office: Early Proceedings, Richard II to Philip and Mary, C 1/61/13.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7449554

When Ralph Constable, husband of Anne Eure died in 1498, he was found to be holding one third of the manor of Breedon and other lands in Leicestershire.
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Series 2, vol. 2 (1915), 174, No. 260.
https://archive.org/stream/calendarofinquis02grea#page/174/mode/1up

Regards,

John

[rbe...@fernside.co.nz]

Excellent post John.

I actually own Glover's original pedigree of the Eure family on vellum completed in 1584, which is in good condition for its age. It shows Robert, senior, as son of Ralph de Eure and Katherine de Aton, as you say. It only shows the eldest daughter of Robert junior - Anne wife of Ralph Constable of Halsham and continues that line to the present (1584). The wives of Robert sr and Robert jr are not given, nor does it show Elizabeth, daughter of Robert, sr. Elizabeth wife of John Ellercar is shown as daughter of Ralph de Eure who died in 1461 at the battle of Towton by his wife Eleanore de Greystoke.

Not many of Glover's rolls have survived, and it is a particularly fine one being nearly 3 metres long with 78 shield of arms and other embellishments. Robert Glover was also a meticulous genealogist.

Cheers
Rosie

[John Watson]

Dear Rosie,

Nice to hear from you - I'm a little bit envious of the Glover roll.

Does the roll give the first name of the daughter of Ralph Eure (d. 1422) who married Thomas Surtees (died 1434)? I have two contemporary references, one showing her as Isabel and another reference to the widow of Thomas Surtees being called Margaret. Foster's pedigree of the Eures, which I assume is partly based on the Glover roll shows her as Joan.

Regards,

John

[rbe...@fernside.co.nz]

Hi John

The roll shows that Ralph's daughter who married Thomas Surtees was called Joan, and she was mother of his son Thomas. It also shows that she had two full sisters called Isabel. The elder Isabel is given as wife of William Claxton, Kt and was mother of his son Robert. The younger Isabel, wife of John Conyers, Kt of Ormesby, Yorkshire. Also shown are two sisters named Margaret, one by each wife of Ralph. The elder Margaret is shown as wife of Ralph Pudsey, Kt and mother of his son Ralph. The younger is wife of Peter de Burston and mother of William de Burston.

Cheers
Rosie

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear John ~

Below is a revised account of Robert Eure, Esq. (died 1480), of Bradley, Durham, and his wife, Elizabeth Mallory, which couple as you correctly noted are the parents of Elizabeth Eure, wife of Sir William Bulmer and Sir James Strangeways.

Elizabeth (Mallory) Eure's parents were Sir Thomas Mallory (died before 1405) and his wife, Joan, daughter and heiress of Thomas Talbot (living 1377, died before 1388), by his wife, Elizabeth, daughter of James Belers/Bellers.

Thomas Talbot in turn was the son and heir apparent of Sir John Talbot (born c.1325, died before 1406), of Swannington, Leicestershire, and Sedgebrook, Lincolnshire, by an unknown 1st wife.

Elizabeth Mallory's mother, Joan Talbot, married (1st) Richard de Swillington (living 1388); (2nd) Thomas Mallory, Knt. (died before 1405); and (3rd) about Jan. 1405 Simon Leeke, Esq. (died c.1439), of Leake and Cotham, Nottinghamshire. Joan Talbot has many descendants by her 3rd marriage to Simon Leeke, Esq.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

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RALPH EURE, Knt., of Witton (in Weardale), Durham, married KATHERINE ATON (desc. King William the Conqueror) [see EURE 8].

9. ROBERT EURE, Esq., of Bradley and Kimblesworth, Durham, Sheriff and Escheator of Durham and Sadberge, 1420-36, and, in right of his wife, of Breedon, Leicestershire, younger son. He married before 1422 ELIZABETH MALLORY, daughter of Thomas Mallory, Knt., by Joan, daughter and heiress of Thomas Talbot. She was born about 1401 (aged 11 in 1412). They had one son, Robert, Esq., and one daughter, Elizabeth. In 1422 William Eure, Knt., Robert Eure, Esq., and William Paxton, clerk, executor of Ralph Eure, Knt. sued Nicholas Trase, of New Malton, Yorkshire, tanner, and another in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £20. In 1432 he was granted a license to fortify his manor of Bradley, Durham. Robert Eure, Esq., of Bradley, Durham and his son and heir, Robert, acting as feoffees of William Bulmer, Knt., presented to the church of Bulmer, Yorkshire 24 July 1468. ROBERT EURE, Esq., died 3 Feb. 1480. In the period, 1480-83, Ralph Constable and Anne his wife, William Constable and Isabel his wife, and Henry Thwaytes and Ellen his wife, daughters of Robert, son of Elizabeth Ivers [Eure], sued Ralph Ivers in Chancery regarding the detention of deeds relating to the manor of Breedon, Leicestershire.

References:

Graves, Hist. & Antiqs. of Cleveland (1808): 234 (Eure ped.: "Robert Eure, Esq. = [left blank]."). Thoresby, Ducatus Leodiensis (1715): 17-18 (Eure ped.). Blore, Hist. & Antiqs. of Rutland (1811): 130 (Hercy-Leeke-Towers-Talbot ped.). Testamenta Eboracensia4 (Surtees Soc. 53) (1869): 40-41. Annual Rpt. of the Deputy Keeper 33 (1872): 135; 36 (1875): 28, 30-31, 44 (1883): 376; 45 (1885), 190. Flower, Vis. of Yorkshire 1563-4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 111-113 (Eure ped.: "Robert Evers."). List of Sheriffs for England & Wales (PRO Lists and Indexes 9) (1898): 42. Clay, Extinct & Dormant Peerages (1913): 53-60 (sub Eure). Harvey et al., Vis. of the North 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930): 110-111 (Yvers ped.: "Robertus Yvers"). Roskell, Commons in the Parliament of 1422 (1954): 178. Storey, Thomas Langley & the Bishopric of Durham: 1406-1437 (1961): 60. Field, Life & Times of Sir Thomas Malory (Arthurian Studies 29) (1993): 177-178. Camden Misc. 31 (Camden Soc. 5th Ser. 3) (1994): 151. Cal. Inqs. Misc. 8 (2003): 32-33. Clark, Fifteenth Cent. 6 (2006): 65. Liddy, Bishopric of Durham in the Late Middle Ages (2008): 51-52. Court of Common Pleas, CP40/647, image 827d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no647/bCP40no647dorses/IMG_0827.htm). National Archives, C 1/61/13 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk).

[John Watson]

Dear Douglas,

Since there was more than one person called Sir Thomas Mallory alive in the early fifteenth century, on what basis have you decided that the Thomas Mallory who was the father of Elizabeth was the one who married Joan Talbot?

Regards,

John

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

Although this descent has now been corrected elsewhere in this thread, it should have been recognized that this descent as presented here does not work chronologically. Elizabeth Eure's first marriage to Sir William Bulmer is noted as having occurred (per contract) before 24 June 1431. But Elizabeth's grandparents Sir William Eure and Maud Fitzhugh were married by license dated 25 Jan 1410/11. The time difference between the marriages of the grandparents and their supposed granddaughter is only 20 years - clearly too short.

A version of this now corrected descent was published in both editions of the Richardson books Plantagenet Ancestry and Magna Carta Ancestry. But that published version did not identify Robert Eure as "of Bradley", nor did it mention the first marriage of Elizabeth Eure to Sir William Bulmer. It showed only Elizabeth's Strangways marriage, dating it as "after 1458" (the ODNB bio of Sir James Strangways dates it as between 1463 and 1468). Ironically this version, showing the single marriage, does work chronologically - especially if you use the ODNB date range for the marriage. But adding the Bulmer marriage makes the chronology impossible.

The version published in PA and MCA seems to have relied upon the Eure pedigree in Foster's edition of the Glover and St. George Visitations of Yorkshire. Here two Elizabeths are shown (or least mentioned in notes): Elizabeth, daughter of Robert Eure, who married Sir William Bulmer, and Elizabeth, daughter of Robert Eure (who mar. a daughter of Robert Tempest)), who married Sir James Strangways. It's these two Robert Eures that were combined into one in the version first shown in this thread to incorporate the two marriages - without regard to the chronological implications.

But, thanks to Rosie's copy of the original Glover visitation, we now know that these were Foster's additions and not in the original visitation MS. Such are the risks of making assumptions and drawing conclusions from the published versions of the visitations....

[John Watson]

John,

I am not entirely clear what you are saying in your post, but there is abundant evidence that Elizabeth, daughter of Robert Eure of Bradley, married firstly Sir William Bulmer, by a marriage contract dated 28 April 1431. Elizabeth was probably less than five years old at the time of this contract. Sir William Bulmer died shortly before 14 November 1463, when Elizabeth Bulmer, his widow was granted administration of his estate. Elizabeth re-married Sir James Strangways before 15 February 1464. See some of the evidence below.

14 May 1431, Agreement between Ralph Bulmer esquire and Roger Thornton esquire about Thornton's mortgage in Bulmer's lands in Simonside and Nesbit, with £40 to be paid by Robert Eure esquire, with Emery Heryng, William Hoton, and John of Chester who, acting as sureties, on the advice of Robert Whelpington, were to make estate of the said land to his son and heir William and to Elizabeth daughter of the said Robert Eure, as per their marriage settlement made on 28 April 9 Henry VI [1431]. Sealed with his seal but, as it is "nought of armes nor autentik", he has also had the seal of the official of Durham added.
Durham Cathedral Muniments: Specialia, 1.5.Spec.38.

14 January 1442, Appointment by Ralph Bulmer lord of Wilton miles of Robert Thormanby and Richard Kirkby chaplain, as his attornies to deliver seisin of the lands of Simonside near Jarrow in County Durham and an annual rent of £3 from the manor of Nesbit in the wapentake of Sadberge to his son William Bulmer and his wife Elizabeth. Witnesses: Alexander Nevill miles, Robert Claxton armiger, John Claxton armiger, Jacob Tocotez, Thomas Lambart, Richard Kirkby chaplain vicar of Hesilden.
Durham Cathedral Muniments: Specialia, 1.5.Spec.40.

15 February 1464, Grant by John Chester to Elizabeth, wife of James Strangways miles, former wife of William Bulmer miles, of all his lands and rents in the vill and territory of Simonside, formerly given to him and the deceased Adomar Heryng and William Hoton by the feoffment of Ralph Bulmer miles, for the duration of her life, with reversion to the rightful heirs of Ralph Bulmer, and he has appointed as his attorneys Ralph Eure and John Dickson (Dicson) chaplain to deliver seisin to Elizabeth. Witnesses: Robert Claxton and Christopher Conyers of Sockburn milites, Richard Clervaux, John Catterick, John Layton of Saxhow armigeres.
Durham Cathedral Muniments: Specialia, 1.5.Spec.41.

28 March 1482, Elizabeth, widow of William Bulmer, inquisition post mortem taken at Durham. Ralph, aged 30 is her son and next heir. Jointly with William Bulmer, her husband, she had held for the term of her life a third part of the vill of Symonsid, held of the prior of Durham
Forty-Fourth Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records (1883), 323.

1483, Ralph Bulmer, knight, executor of Elizabeth Strangeways, formerly wife of James Strangeways, knight, sued Guy Roclyff of Eastrig by York, esq; John Shapton of Eastrig, gent, son and heir of William Shipton in a plea of debt.
Court of Common Pleas, CP 40/883.

Regards,

John

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

John, I agree fully with what you're saying about the marriage of Elizabeth Eure and Sir William Bulmer, and the parentage of Elizabeth Eure. My note was with regard to the Oct. 16 post of Douglas Richardson (subsequently corrected) in which he presented a descent for Elizabeth Eure (somewhat revised from what he had published in PA and MCA). This descent said that Elizabeth's father was the Robert Eure (mar. to a Tempest daughter - not "of Bradley") who was the son of Sir William Eure and Maud Fitzhugh. In my post I was attempting to reconstruct how DR (1) arrived at this descent in his books based apparently on Foster's work, and then (2) modified his published descent to incorporate the Bulmer marriage - while overlooking the chronological implications of the change. I agree with the descent from the "real" Robert Eure of Bradley which you've shown and which DR has subsequently presented earlier today (eliminating the chronological problem). I apologize if my note was confusing on this matter.

BTW I agree with your question to DR regarding which Thomas Mallory was the father of Elizabeth the wife of Robert Eure of Bradley.

[John Watson]

Dear Rosie,

I have had a quick check to see if Glover's information on the daughters of Ralh Eure matches up with contemporary records:

1. Daughter who married John (not Ralph) Pudsey
Her name was Margaret, and she was the daughter of Ralph Eure's first wife Isabel Atholl:
Margaret, daughter of Ralph Eure is mentioned in the will of her grandmother Margaret, widow of John de Eure in 1378; "Item Margaretae filiae Radulphi de Eur' unum ciphum coopertum de argento".
Wills and Inventories, Part 1, Surtees Society, 2 (1835), 35.

18 November 1392, County: Yorkshire. Place: York. Date: One week from St Martin, 16 Richard [II]. Parties: Aymer (Adomarus) Dathell', querent, and John Comer[e?], Gilbert de Eluet, William de Mitford' and Thomas Clerk' of Newton', deforciants. Property: 30 pounds of rent in Sixindale, Alborne, Foston', Scorburgh', Erghum, Beu[er]laco, Fyuele, Besewyk', Naffreton', Louthorp', Tweng', Kyllom' and Brunby. Action: Plea of covenant. Agreement: Aymer has acknowledged the rent to be the right of John, as that which John, Gilbert, William and Thomas have of his gift. For this: John, Gilbert, William and Thomas have granted to Aymer the rent and have rendered it to him in the court, to hold to Aymer, of the chief lords for the life of Aymer. And after the decease of Aymer the rent shall remain to John Lescrop', knight, and Elizabeth, his wife, and the heirs of the body of Elizabeth begotten by Thomas de Percy the younger, knight, formerly the husband of Elizabeth, to hold of the chief lords for ever. In default of such heirs, successive remainders (1) to the heirs of the bodies of the same John Lescrop' and Elizabeth, (2) to John Lyle, son of Robert Lyle, knight, and the heirs of his body, (3) to Margaret, daughter of Ralph de Euere, and of Isabel, his wife, and the heirs of her body, (4) to Philippe, sister of the aforesaid Elizabeth, and the heirs of her body and (5) to the right heirs of the aforesaid Aymer.
Feet of Fines, CP 25/1/278/146, number 12.

Since Margaret is the only child of Ralph Eure and Isabel Athol mentioned in this fine of 1392, then presumably all of their other children were dead by this date. The earliest heraldic visitation of the north of England gives them 4 sons and 5 daughters (Charles Henry Hunter Blair, ed., Visitations of the North, Part III, A Visitation of the North of England, Circa 1480-1500, Surtees Society 144, 1930, 110.).

2. Daughter who married Thomas Surtees. This Thomas Surtees died in 1435, leaving a son and heir Thomas, aged 24.
Her name was probably Isabel (not Joan):
1391, Licence to William de Skypwyth', knight, and Richard Talbotte, parson of the church of Dedensale to enfeoff Thomas son and heir of Alexander Surteys and Isabella his wife, of land, etc., in Burdon, Thikley, Walworth, Ovyrmedilton, Denton, Bolum, a messuage and lands called Burdonhouses and a field called Knyghtfeld.
Thirty-Third Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records (1872), 77.

3. Daughter who married William Claxton (and John Conyers)
Her name was Elizabeth (not Isabel). She married firstly William Claxton, who died before April 1431 and [probably] secondly, as his second wife, John Conyers of Ormesby who died in July 1438:
18 November 1423, Letters of Pope Martin [V] to the bishop of Durham to investigate the petition of Elizabeth Eure, wife, of Durham diocese, that she had married William Claxton knight, and it had been consummated and a child had been born, but that he had then left her for Christine Scot in adultery.
Durham Cathedral Muniments: Locelli, Loc.XVII:22.

20 May 1424, Grant by William of Claxton miles to William de Eure miles and Robert de Eure armiger of all his lands etc in the vills and territories of Burn Toft, Westermorton and Fishburn within the bishoprick of Durham, except for 4 cottages in Fishburn in his hands in decay for want of tenants of which John Megson held one, Thomas Aire another, John Gibson another and Johanna Wardale another, also a cottage formerly held by Agnes Taylor, and a garden formerly held by William Shepherd of Dalton, to be held for life, and on condition that if Elizabeth of Claxton, sister of the said William and Robert Eure, dies with William Claxton still living, then the grant to be nullified and the properties returned to him.
Witnesses: William Bowes and Thomas Lambard milites, Thomas Langton, John of Claxton, Richard Sowerby.
Durham Cathedral Muniments: Miscellaneous Charters, Misc.Ch. 184.

4. Daughter who married Peter de Bukton (not de Burston)
Her name was Margaret. She married Peter de Bukton, son of Sir Peter de Bukton, knight before November 1408.
18 November 1408, County: Lincolnshire. Place: Westminster. Date: One week from St Martin, 10 Henry [IV]. Parties: Peter de Bukton', son of Peter de Bukton', knight, and Margaret, his wife, querents, and Peter de Bukton', knight, and Cecily, his wife, deforciants. Property: The manor of Threkyngham. Action: Plea of covenant. Agreement: Peter de Bukton', knight, and Cecily have granted to Peter de Bukton' the son and Margaret the manor and have rendered it to them in the court, to hold to Peter de Bukton' the son and Margaret and the heirs of their bodies, of Peter de Bukton', knight, and Cecily and the heirs of Peter by the service of a tenth part of 1 knight's fee, and doing to the chief lords all other services. In default of such heirs, the manor shall revert to Peter de Bukton', knight, and Cecily and the heirs of Peter, quit of the other heirs of Peter de Bukton' the son and Margaret, to hold of the chief lords for ever. Warranty: Warranty.
For this: Peter de Bukton' the son and Margaret have given them 100 marks of silver.
Feet of Fines, CP 25/1/144/152, number 45.

There was also another daughter, Katherine, who is said to have married Alexander Neville of Thornton Bridge in Yorkshire who died before 25 June 1457 when his will was proved at York. She appears in the Eure pegigree given in Visitations of the North Part III without a first name.

Regards,

John

[rbe...@fernside.co.nz]

> Dear Rosie,
>
> I have had a quick check to see if Glover's information on the daughters of Ralh Eure matches up with contemporary records:
>
> 1. Daughter who married John (not Ralph) Pudsey
> Her name was Margaret, and she was the daughter of Ralph Eure's first wife Isabel Atholl:
> Margaret, daughter of Ralph Eure is mentioned in the will of her grandmother Margaret, widow of John de Eure in 1378; "Item Margaretae filiae Radulphi de Eur' unum ciphum coopertum de argento".

Apologies - Glover does have Margaret wife of John Pudsey, as you say, and mother of Ralph Pudsey. That was my error

> Wills and Inventories, Part 1, Surtees Society, 2 (1835), 35.


>
> 18 November 1392, County: Yorkshire. Place: York. Date: One week from St Martin, 16 Richard [II]. Parties: Aymer (Adomarus) Dathell', querent, and John Comer[e?], Gilbert de Eluet, William de Mitford' and Thomas Clerk' of Newton', deforciants. Property: 30 pounds of rent in Sixindale, Alborne, Foston', Scorburgh', Erghum, Beu[er]laco, Fyuele, Besewyk', Naffreton', Louthorp', Tweng', Kyllom' and Brunby. Action: Plea of covenant. Agreement: Aymer has acknowledged the rent to be the right of John, as that which John, Gilbert, William and Thomas have of his gift. For this: John, Gilbert, William and Thomas have granted to Aymer the rent and have rendered it to him in the court, to hold to Aymer, of the chief lords for the life of Aymer. And after the decease of Aymer the rent shall remain to John Lescrop', knight, and Elizabeth, his wife, and the heirs of the body of Elizabeth begotten by Thomas de Percy the younger, knight, formerly the husband of Elizabeth, to hold of the chief lords for ever. In default of such heirs, successive remainders (1) to the heirs of the bodies of the same John Lescrop' and Elizabeth, (2) to John Lyle, son of Robert Lyle, knight, and the heirs of his body, (3) to Margaret, daughter of Ralph de Euere, and of Isabel, his wife, and the heirs of her body, (4) to Philippe, sister of the aforesaid Elizabeth, and the heirs of her body and (5) to the right heirs of the aforesaid Aymer.
> Feet of Fines, CP 25/1/278/146, number 12.
>
> Since Margaret is the only child of Ralph Eure and Isabel Athol mentioned in this fine of 1392, then presumably all of their other children were dead by this date. The earliest heraldic visitation of the north of England gives them 4 sons and 5 daughters (Charles Henry Hunter Blair, ed., Visitations of the North, Part III, A Visitation of the North of England, Circa 1480-1500, Surtees Society 144, 1930, 110.).

Glover only gives Margaret as daughter of Isabel Athol. He has the rest by Catherine de Aton

The full family by Catherine is listed in order
1. Ralph d.s.p. unmarried
2. Isabella wife of William Claxton
3. Isabella wife of John Conyers of Ormesby
4. Joan wife of Thomas Surtees
5. William de Eure marrried to Maud dau Henry fitz Hugh
6. Margaret wife of Peter de Burston (probably Glover's misreading of Bukton)
7. Catherine wife of Alexander de Neville
8. Robert
9. Henry s.p.
10 John s.p.

>
> 2. Daughter who married Thomas Surtees. This Thomas Surtees died in 1435, leaving a son and heir Thomas, aged 24.
> Her name was probably Isabel (not Joan):
> 1391, Licence to William de Skypwyth', knight, and Richard Talbotte, parson of the church of Dedensale to enfeoff Thomas son and heir of Alexander Surteys and Isabella his wife, of land, etc., in Burdon, Thikley, Walworth, Ovyrmedilton, Denton, Bolum, a messuage and lands called Burdonhouses and a field called Knyghtfeld.
> Thirty-Third Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records (1872), 77.
>
> 3. Daughter who married William Claxton (and John Conyers)
> Her name was Elizabeth (not Isabel). She married firstly William Claxton, who died before April 1431 and [probably] secondly, as his second wife, John Conyers of Ormesby who died in July 1438:
> 18 November 1423, Letters of Pope Martin [V] to the bishop of Durham to investigate the petition of Elizabeth Eure, wife, of Durham diocese, that she had married William Claxton knight, and it had been consummated and a child had been born, but that he had then left her for Christine Scot in adultery.
> Durham Cathedral Muniments: Locelli, Loc.XVII:22.
>
> 20 May 1424, Grant by William of Claxton miles to William de Eure miles and Robert de Eure armiger of all his lands etc in the vills and territories of Burn Toft, Westermorton and Fishburn within the bishoprick of Durham, except for 4 cottages in Fishburn in his hands in decay for want of tenants of which John Megson held one, Thomas Aire another, John Gibson another and Johanna Wardale another, also a cottage formerly held by Agnes Taylor, and a garden formerly held by William Shepherd of Dalton, to be held for life, and on condition that if Elizabeth of Claxton, sister of the said William and Robert Eure, dies with William Claxton still living, then the grant to be nullified and the properties returned to him.
> Witnesses: William Bowes and Thomas Lambard milites, Thomas Langton, John of Claxton, Richard Sowerby.
> Durham Cathedral Muniments: Miscellaneous Charters, Misc.Ch. 184.
>
> 4. Daughter who married Peter de Bukton (not de Burston)
> Her name was Margaret. She married Peter de Bukton, son of Sir Peter de Bukton, knight before November 1408.
> 18 November 1408, County: Lincolnshire. Place: Westminster. Date: One week from St Martin, 10 Henry [IV]. Parties: Peter de Bukton', son of Peter de Bukton', knight, and Margaret, his wife, querents, and Peter de Bukton', knight, and Cecily, his wife, deforciants. Property: The manor of Threkyngham. Action: Plea of covenant. Agreement: Peter de Bukton', knight, and Cecily have granted to Peter de Bukton' the son and Margaret the manor and have rendered it to them in the court, to hold to Peter de Bukton' the son and Margaret and the heirs of their bodies, of Peter de Bukton', knight, and Cecily and the heirs of Peter by the service of a tenth part of 1 knight's fee, and doing to the chief lords all other services. In default of such heirs, the manor shall revert to Peter de Bukton', knight, and Cecily and the heirs of Peter, quit of the other heirs of Peter de Bukton' the son and Margaret, to hold of the chief lords for ever. Warranty: Warranty.
> For this: Peter de Bukton' the son and Margaret have given them 100 marks of silver.
> Feet of Fines, CP 25/1/144/152, number 45.
>
> There was also another daughter, Katherine, who is said to have married Alexander Neville of Thornton Bridge in Yorkshire who died before 25 June 1457 when his will was proved at York. She appears in the Eure pegigree given in Visitations of the North Part III without a first name.
>

Cheers
Rosie

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear John ~

In answer to your question, Joan Talbot is specifically identified as the widow of Sir Thomas Malory, Knt. in the 2nd fine below dated 1405.

From the chronology, social rank, family intermarriages, and her place of origin [Leicestershire], it makes perfect sense that the Sir Thomas Malory who was Joan Talbot's husband was the Sir Thomas Malory who was the son of Sir Anketil Malory, of Kirkby Mallory, Leicestershire (died 1393) and his wife, Alice Driby. We know that Sir Thomas, son of Anketil, was living as an adult c.1401 (birth of his daughter), that he was knighted before his early death, and that he was dead before 1412. Since his only known child was born c.1401, he presumably died in or before 1405. To be a knight, you usually had to have one to three manors. Sir Thomas, son of Anketil, would fit that requirement.

Like Sir Thomas Malory, Joan Talbot was from Leicestershire. She evidently married (1st) c.1388 to Richard son of Robert de Swillington. It that year her grandfather John Talbot made a settlement of lands, and she and her husband were included in the remainders [see first fine copied below]. My guess is that Joan was very young in 1388, at least 7, but more likely 12 or 13.

Joan Talbot was still young enough to have 4 children by her 3rd marriage to Simon Leek, which marriage took place in 1405. My guess is that she was born c.1375. I believe Sir Thomas Malory was born c.1380.

We know that Sir Thomas Malory's full sister, Margaret Malory, was married to Sir Robert Moton, of Peckleton, Leicestershire, Cheadle, Staffordshire, etc., Knight of the Shire for Leicestershire, 1422, Sheriff of Warwickshire and Leicestershire, 1451-2. He was born about 1372-74 (aged 17 in 1391, 30 in 1412).

Joan Talbot's grandfather, Sir John Talbot, born c.1325, died before 1406, was allegedly married to Alice Moton, who was the great-aunt of Sir Robert Moton, the husband of Margaret Malory. So there was an earlier intermarriage between these same families.

As for Joan Talbot's grandfather, Sir John Talbot, I find that he was co-heir in 1376 to his cousin, Richard Frene. As such, I assume he inherited lands in Herefordshire that could have gone to the Eure family.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + +

Source: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/search.php [Excellent website by Chris Phillips].


CP 25/1/289/55, number 169.
County: Leicestershire. Lincolnshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: One week from St Hilary, 11 Richard [II] [20 January 1388].
Parties: Robert Grethede, the parson of the church of Ekyngton', Henry Fox, the parson of the church of Stanford', John in the Wro, chaplain, and Robert Walron' of Snypston', querents, and John Talbot, knight, and Ala, his wife, deforciants.
Property: The manor of Swanyngton' in the county of Leicester and the manor of Segbrok' in the county of Lincoln.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: John Talbot and Ala have acknowledged the manors to be the right of Robert Grethede, as those which the same Robert, Henry, John in the Wro and Robert Walron' have of their gift.
For this: Robert, Henry, John in the Wro and Robert have granted to John Talbot and Ala the manors and have rendered them to them in the court, to hold to John Talbot and Ala and the male heirs of their bodies, of the chief lords for ever. In default of such heirs, successive remainders (1) to Richard, son of Robert de Swillyngton', and Joan, his wife, daughter of Thomas Talbot, son of the aforesaid John Talbot, and the heirs of their bodies and (2) to the heirs of the body of the same Joan. In default of such heirs, the manor of Swanyngton' shall remain to the right heirs of the aforesaid John Talbot, to hold of the chief lords for ever. And the manor of Segbrok' shall remain to the heirs of the body of the aforesaid Richard, to hold of the chief lords for ever. In default of such heirs, remainder to Robert de Swillyngton', knight, and his heirs .

Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions, intended only as a finding aid.)

Persons: Robert Greathead, Henry Fox, John in the Wroe, Robert Walerand, John Talbot, Ala Talbot, Robert de Swillington, Richard de Swillington, Thomas Talbot, Joan Talbot

Places: Eckington (in Derbyshire or Worcestershire), Stanford, Snibston (in Packington, Leicestershire), Swannington (in Whitwick), Sedgebrook

+ + + + + + + + + +

CP 25/1/186/37, number 16.
County: Nottinghamshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: Two weeks from St Hilary, 6 Henry [IV] [27 January 1405]. And afterwards two weeks from Easter in the same year [3 May 1405].
Parties: Simon de Leek' and Joan, who was the wife of Thomas Malory, knight, querents, and John de Leek', knight, and Isabel, his wife, deforciants.
Property: The manor of Kiluyngton', 4 messuages, 64 acres of land, 16 acres of meadow and 20 shillings of rent in Kiluyngton', Staunton', Flawebergh', Dalyngton' and Newerk'.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: John and Isabel have granted to Simon and Joan the manor and tenements and have rendered them to them in the court, to hold to Simon and Joan and the heirs of their bodies, of John and Isabel and the heirs of John for ever, rendering yearly 1 rose at the feast of the Nativity of St John the Baptist, and doing to the chief lords all other services. In default of such heirs, the manor and tenements shall revert to John and Isabel and the heirs of John, quit of the other heirs of Simon and Joan, to hold of the chief lords for ever.
Warranty: Warranty.
For this: Simon and Joan have given them 100 marks of silver.

Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions, intended only as a finding aid.)

Persons: Simon de Leek, Thomas Malory, Joan Malory, John de Leek, Isabel de Leek

Places: Kilvington, Staunton in the Vale, Flawborough, Dallington (in Flawborough), Newark-on-Trent

[johnmw...@gmail.com]

Dear Douglas,

Thank you very much for your reply. The evidence appears to support the identification of Joan, wife of Sir Thomas Mallory as the daughter of Thomas Talbot of Swannington, Leicestershire and granddaughter and heiress of Sir John Talbot of Swannington.

The Talbot family of Swannington appear rarely in contemporary records, and I suppose that they were quite minor Leicestershire gentry.

There is a rather inaccurate pedigree of the family here, for anyone who is interested:
John Nichols, ed., The History and Antiquities of the County of Leicester, vol. 3, part, 1 (London, 1800), 1123.
https://db.tt/r2SKt46k

Regards,
John

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

It's interesting that this pedigree of Talbot of Swannington (which is actually in vol. 3 pt. 2 of Nichols' Leics) fails to mention the marriage of Joan Talbot to Sir Thomas Mallory, as well as her "apparent" marriage to Richard de Swillington. This probably explains why the first edition of the Richardson book Magna Carta Ancestry, which cites this pedigree, shows only Simon Leeke as the husband of Joan Talbot and didn't mention the other two marriages.

It's pretty clear from the evidence that John Watson presented earlier in this thread that the Sir Thomas Mallory whose daughter Elizabeth married Robert Eure of Bradley was the son of Sir Anketil Mallory by Alice de Driby. What's not so clear is who his wife was. No specific evidence has been presented that the Sir Thomas Mallory who married Joan Talbot was the son of Sir Anketil Mallory. The conclusion is reached based on inferences - particularly the Leicestershire connection. But there is another candidate identified in the literature as his wife who has similar connections.

In a pedigree of the Driby family in Nichols' Leics, vol. 2 pt. 1 page 17*, Sir Thomas Mallory (son of Sir Anketil and Alice de Driby) is said to have married Margaret, daughter of Sir Thomas Grendon. The Grendon family held the manor of Bramcote, near Grendon, in Warwickshire. Grendon is only 10 miles from Kirkby Mallory, the earlier seat of the Mallorys in Leicestershire. And Margaret Grendon was the widow of William Charnells of Snareston, Leicestershire - thus another Leics connection.

There is some narrative of the Grendons of Bramcote in vol. 4 of VCH Watwickshire sub Polesworth. There are enough chronological details given there to conclude that the Mallory/Grendon marriage and the Talbot/Leeke marriage overlap, as Sir Thomas Mallory and his wife Margaret Grendon were both living in 1411, and Margaret survived him. (The evidence of Alice de Driby's will of 1412 indicates that her son Thomas died before her, which is not inconsistent with what VCH states.) So this Sir Thomas Mallory cannot be the one who married Joan Talbot, and thus the two Sir Thomas Mallorys must have been separate men. As John Watson noted earlier, "there was more than one person called Sir Thomas Mallory alive in the early fifteenth century".

The Mallory/Grendon marriage is discussed at some length in the 1985 book "A History of the Mallory family" by S. V. Mallory Smith, who concludes that Elizabeth the wife of Robert Eure was a daughter of this marriage (although, to be fair, the author appears to be unaware of the Mallory/Talbot marriage). I don't think there's sufficient evidence to say which Sir Thomas Mallory was the son of Sir Anketil and thus the father of Elizabeth.

To be clear, I have no dog in this race and thus am quite happy to leave the question of the wife of Sir Thomas Mallory (and mother of his daughter Elizabeth) as unresolved. Not every question has to reach a conclusion, and barring further evidence I think this particular question cannot yet be resolved with the certainty that some might desire. :-)

(John W.: where did you find online the page from Nichols that you cited? The link itself is uninformative in this regard.)

[johnmw...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 11 November 2015 12:53:07 UTC+7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

> (John W.: where did you find online the page from Nichols that you cited? The link itself is uninformative in this regard.)

John,

University of Leicester Special Collections has all of Nichols' Leicester online, but its a bit of a pain finding the correct page and its not easy to browse from page to page, or to search.

This link should take you to the correct page. I normally download the pdf pages I want, particularly if the font is small as in this case.
http://cdm15407.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p15407coll6/id/2904/rec/2

Regards,

John

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

Hi, John:

Thanks for reminding me of this site. I have used it in the past for the Nichols work and, as you suggest, found it difficult to navigate and glacially slow in response times. I was hoping that you might have found an alternative site for Nichols. Oh, well....

Sometime in the past I was able to download the entire volumes of Nichols' work from this site and thus be able to use them offline - except for this particular volume 3 part 2. I guess I'll keep trying - and hope that perhaps the FHL will eventually scan its copy of Nichols.

[Douglas Richardson]

I've often said that it's the bane of the medieval period to have two people of the same name living at the same time. Often contemporary records don't clearly indicate which individual is being named in a certain record. Sometimes they are father and son, sometimes uncle and nephew, sometimes distant relatives.

VCH Warwickshire 4 cited by Mr. Higgins says the following:

"Thomas [Grendon] was probably great great-grandson of Walkeline de Bromcote, (fn. 47) and the manor is believed to have descended in this branch of the Grendon family, through another Thomas, grandson of Robert, to his daughter Margaret, first the wife of William Charnels, lord of Snareston, co. Leics., and, afterwards of Thomas Mallory. (fn. 48) In 1407 Bramcote was settled on Thomas and Margaret (fn. 49) and they were dealing with it in 1411, (fn. 50) as were Margaret, described as widow of William Charnels, and her son John Charnels, in 1429. (fn. 51)." END OF QUOTE

As we can see, there is no indication here that Thomas Malory, husband of Margaret Grendon, was a knight, although the author cites two fines which involve this couple. After 1400, a fine should indicate whether or not a person was knighted.

The VCH Warwickshire material may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/warks/vol4/pp186-198

In contrast, contemporary evidence shows that that Thomas Malory, son of Sir Anketil Malory, and Thomas Malory, husband of Joan Talbot, were recorded as being knighted. Inasmuch as Margaret Grendon's husband was not a knight (at least as indicated by the fines quoted by VCH Warwickshire), the evidence supports my contention that Sir Thomas Malory, son of Sir Anketil Malory (known to be a knight), was Sir Thomas Malory, a knight, who was the husband of Joan Talbot.

If evidence can be advanced that there was more than one Sir Thomas Malory, I should like to hear about it. Right now we have two Thomas Malory's, one of whom was knighted (living c.1401, dead by 1405, who married Joan Talbot) and one of whom was not knighted (living 1407, 1411, who married Margaret Grendon). In this case, the matter of knighthood seems to resolve the issue as to which Thomas Malory married what woman.

Insofar as Margaret (Grendon) Malory is concerned, I can add that there is a pedigree chart of the Grendon family in Dugdale, Antiquities of Warwickshire 2 (1730): 215), which material available at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=PhBaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA214&lpg=PA215

Dugdale's pedigree (like VCH Warwickshire) does not indicate that Margaret Grendon's husband was a knight. Dugdale was a competent historian. If he knew that Margaret Grendon's husband was a knight, he should have said so.

[johnmw...@gmail.com]

Dear Douglas,

What a coincidence. I was just going to post something along the same lines myself.

It is possible to see at least one of the fines mentioned in VCH Warwickshire, Polesworth on Google Books, snippet view. As you say. Thomas Mallory, husband of Margaret Grendon is not referred to as a knight in a fine of 1411 (page 123).

https://books.google.com/books?id=HvngAAAAMAAJ&dq=feet+of+fines+warwickshire&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=bramcote
Lucy Drucker, ed., Warwickshire Feet of Fines, vol. 3: 19 Ed. III (1345)-24 Hen. VII (1509), Dugdale Society, 18 (London, 1943), 123, No. 2463.

Regards,

John

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

You've discussed one of the sources on the Mallory/Grendon marriage that I cited in my earlier post (VCH), but chosen to overlook two other sources mentioned there - both of which say that the son of Sir Anketil Mallory and Alice de Driby was SIR Thomas Mallory and that his wife was Margaret Grendon. They are Nichols' Leics and the 1985 book on the Mallorys - see my earlier post for details. I have paper copies of the pertinent sections of both works, but the Nichols reference can undoubtedly be found at the website that John Watson provided earlier in this thread. And both books are listed in the FHL's catalog and are presumably available there.

BTW Paul Reed, in a post here on 21 Feb 1998, also cited the Mallory book in identifying the Mallory wife in question as Margaret Grendon.

So, we do have specific evidence that Sir Thomas Mallory who married Margaret Grendon was the son of Sir Anketil Mallory. We do NOT have similar evidence that Sir Thomas Mallory who married Joan Talbot was Sir Anketil's son. The conclusion stated earlier in this thread is simply an inference made by DR based on "chronology, social rank, family intermarriages, and her [Joan's] place of origin".

I don't intend to get into a debate as to whether Nichols or Dugdale was the better historian. Both men undoubtedly made mistakes, and any assessment of their overall work, at least in the context of this specific thread, would merely be subjective and self-serving. And, if you follow the reference to the Warwickshire Feet of Fines provided by John Watson (the source for VCH), you'll see that the title page says the book has been "abstracted from the originals in the Public Record Office by Ethel Stokes and edited by Frederick C. Wellstood". So these are not the original documents, and errors may have been introduced in the process. Perhaps not the best source on which to reach such a firm conclusion that the Thomas Mallory who married Margaret Grendon was not a knight....

As I've suggested earlier, I have no interest in whether the wife of Sir Thomas Mallory was of royal or Magna Carta descent, although that may be the goal for some others. We all know that historically such descents have often been constructed by genealogists who are too eager to select data which supports their desired result and to pass over data which disagrees with that result. The most conservative conclusion in this case is that there is conflicting information on the matter, and thus it's appropriate to be skeptical of any firm decision one way or the other. Not all questions in genealogy have a definitive answer....

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear John ~

Thanks for posting this information and the weblink. Much appreciated.

It seems evident now that Joan Talbot was indeed the wife of Sir Thomas Malory, son of Sir Anketil Malory, not Margaret Grendon.

Sometime next week I'll post further particulars regarding Joan Talbot's grandfather, Sir John Talbot.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[johnmw...@gmail.com]

Dear Douglas,

Looking forward to your further details on Sir John Talbot of Swannington. I suppose by now you will have figured out the his father was probably another John Talbot, and not Philip Talbot as shown in Nichol's pedigree of the family. Philip Talbot appears nowhere in any contemporary records and I doubt that he existed.

Regards,

John

[johnmw...@gmail.com]

Dear John,

There is indirect evidence, although I admit that it's not conclusive, that Thomas, son of Anketil Mallory was dead before July 1408. There are two entries in the Patent Rolls concerning the manor of Papworth St. Agnes in Cambridgeshire. In the first, Sir William Papworth grants Papworth to William son of Anketil Mallory with remainder to Thomas his brother. In the second entry, the same grant is repeated, but this time without the inclusion of Thomas Mallory.

12 October 1391, Licence, for 5 marks paid to the king by William Pappeworth, knight, for him to enfeoff John de Burton, clerk, John Bretton, John Hervy and John Sqwier, clerk, of his manor of Pappeworth Anneys with appurtenances except one acre of land in the county of Cambridge, and for the feoffees, after seisin had, to grant the premises, except as aforesaid, to the said William and Alice his wife and the heirs tail of William, with successive remainders in tail male, to William son of Anketil Mallore, and Thomas his brother, and final remainder to the right heirs of the said William Pappeworth.
Calendar of Patent Rolls, Richard II, vol. 4: 1388-1392 (1902), 502-3.

2 July 1408, Licence, for 5 marks paid to the king by William Pappeworth,'chivaler,' for him to enfeoff Henry Maupas, clerk, Roger Flore and John Botiller of Yillyng of his manor of Pappeworth Anneys except one acre of land in it, held in chief, and for them to re-grant the same to him and Alice his wife and the heirs of his body with remainders to William son of Anketin Malore,'chivaler,' and the heirs of his body and the right heirs of the said William Pappeworth.
Calendar of Patent Rolls, Henry IV, vol. 3: 1405-1408 (1907), 452.

We know from the Nottinghamshire fine that Douglas posted previously (CP 25/1/186/37, number 16) that Sir Thomas Mallory, knight, husband of Joan Talbot was dead before January 1405. We also know that Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Thomas Mallory, knight, heiress of her grandmother Alice Driby was born about 1401 (CIPM, vol. 19, no. 1031). Presumably Thomas and his wife had no more surviving children.

Taken together, I consider that the evidence indicates that Sir Thomas Mallory, son of Sir Anketil Mallory, of Kirkby Mallory was the person who married Joan Talbot of Swannington, had one daughter Elizabeth and died before January 1405. Previously I had followed Nichols' pedigree of the Mallory family, which shows Sir Thomas, son of Anketil Mallory married to Margaret Grendon.
http://cdm15407.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15407coll6/id/5419

After reviewing Douglas' evidence and looking again at at the Nichols pedigree which completely misses Sir William Mallory, the younger brother of Sir Thomas, I have decided that the balance of probabilities is that Nichols is mistaken and that Sir Thomas Mallory and Joan Talbot were the parents of Elizabeth Eure. Thomas was still alive in 1403, as noted by Nichols (vol. 4, part 2, 762), when he paid the abbot of Saint Mary de Pratis, Leicester, 40 shillings for the wardship of the heirs of Thomas Stapleton. He probably died in 1403 or 1404.

Regards,
John

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

Thanks for your thoughts on this, John - some points definitely worth considering. I'm continuing to look into the Mallory family to see if I can locate more conclusive evidence to identify the husband of Joan Talbot.

[jasonkris...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 3:15:22 AM UTC-4, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Thomas Talbot in turn was the son and heir apparent of Sir John Talbot (born c.1325, died before 1406), of Swannington, Leicestershire, and Sedgebrook, Lincolnshire, by an unknown 1st wife.

Does an unknown first wife mean Alice Moton is now a dead end, for any kind of descent, if she's neither the mother of Thomas, nor his daughter Joan (who used to be considered their daughter, rather than granddaughter)? Or, did they have other children?

She was listed in the Markham descent, which goes through Joan. (Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 2nd Edition, 2011, pg 129 [https://books.google.ca/books?id=8JcbV309c5UC&pg=RA2-PA129&lpg=RA2-PA129&dq])