Geoffroy, Comte d'Arles, Markgraf of Provence
Leo
Don Stone, John Ravilious, Renia Simmons, Doug McDonald, Michael Welch, Andrew MacEwen, Gary Boyd Roberts, Tim Powys-Lybbe, Ian Fettes, Richard Carruthers-Zurowski, Brom Nichol, Hans Vogels, James Cummings, Tony Hoskins, Merilyn Pedrick, Gordon Banks and several more.
I have two Gateways to Brazil for him, Francisco II de Sousa, governor of Brazil, and Maria Pimentel Drummond.
Gateways to North America, just some : Hon. George Percy, Sir Ralph Lane, Sir Ferdinando Gorges, Capt. John West, Col. Edward Digges, Katherine St.Leger, Rev. John Oxenbridge, Katherine Neville, Sir Francis Wyatt, Rev. Hawte Wyatt, Capt. George Popham, Mary Fulford and more.
I hope this biography is of interest and any corrections will be gratefully received.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Geoffroy was the third son of Guillaume III, comte de Provence, and Gerberge de Bourgogne. He was joint count of Provence with his elder brothers Guillaume IV and Foulque Bertrand I from his father's death in 1018. It is possible that he did not carry the title of Count until after the death of his eldest brother Guillaume around 1032.
He became count of Arles in 1032. On 26 May 1037 he and Foulque Bertrand are recorded as making a donation to the Abbey of Cluny. During his brother's life he was secondary to him. With the death of his brother he became sole count with the title marchyo sive comes Provincie. The title of marchio (margrave) implied that he was the head of the dynasty.
With his wife Stephanie 'Dulcia' de Marseille, daughter of Bertrand de Marseille, he had a son Bertrand who would succeed him but leave no recorded progeny, and three daughters who would all have progeny. One daughter became the first wife of her cousin Raimond VI, comte de Toulouse; another, Estefania, married Guillermo II Trunus, comte de Besalú et de Ripoll; and the third, Gerberga, married Gilbert, comte de Gevaudan, vicomte de Carlat. Their daughter Doulce/Doulcia would marry Ramon Berenguer III el Grande, conde de Barcelona, Provence & Carcassonne.
Geoffroy was a great builder of the Church in his region, devastated in the previous century by Saracen raids. He restored the Abbey of Sparro, which they had destroyed, and gave it to the archiepiscopal see of Aix. Following the example of most of his ancestors, he was a patron of Saint Victor in Marseille. In 1045 he consented to a donation of one of his vicecomital vassals to the monastery and in March 1048 to the transfer of property from Raimbaud, archbishop of Arles, to the Church. On 1 July 1055 and again in 1057, with his wife Stephanie and his son Bertrand, he himself donated property to St Victor. His patronage far exceeded that of his predecessors. He relinquished his rights over any lands the viscount of Marseilles, Foulques, wished to donate to the monastery in 1044, while in 1032 he had consented to turn over lands to the Church as allods. In 1038 he gave over to his vassals comital rights which had been possessed by his house since the reign of his great-grandfather Guillaume II 'le Liberateur', losing control over many castles and fortresses. The royal territory, which had been under control of the counts of Provence since the time of Guillaume, was mostly parcelled out as allods to the vassals during Geoffroy's tenure, and the weakening of the county of Provence as a united polity can be dated from his reign. Even when his lord Rudolf III, king of Burgundy, sold any remaining rights over some royal villae, Geoffroy gave these away as allodial holdings.
Geoffroy died about February 1061. He was succeeded by his son Bertrand.
Christine Czarnecki
Randolph of "Turkey Island" and Sarah Ludlow, mother of Robert "King" Carter of
"Corotoman," both of Virginia. (Randolph is an ancestor of Thomas Jefferson,
and Carter is an ancestor of presidents William Henry Harrison and Benjamin
Harrison.)
Leo, thank you for the lovely biography and for your expanded information on
your featured continental ancestors of note.
Christine
________________________________
From: Leo <can...@netspeed.com.au>
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Fri, August 6, 2010 11:15:19 PM
Subject: Geoffroy, Comte d'Arles, Markgraf of Provence
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
in the subject and the body of the message
Leo
I don't think I have the line to Sarah Ludlow, is it difficult for you to show it?
When I called up the names of interesting descendants, a huge list was presented, which is why I only gave a few subjects (no royals were mentioned), but the list of USA Presidents is quite large:
1.George Washington
3.Thomas Jefferson
4.James Madison Jr.
6.John Quincy Adams
9.William Henry Harrison
12.Zachary Taylor
18.Ulysses S. Grant
22-24 Stephen Grover Cleveland
23.Benjamin Harrison
26.Theodore Roosevelt
27.William Howard Taft
29.Gamaliel Harding
30.Calvin Coolidge
32.Franklin Delano Roosevelt
38.Gerald Ford
41.George Bush
43.George Bush Jr.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: Christine Czarnecki
To: Leo ; GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: Geoffroy, Comte d'Arles, Markgraf of Provence
Geoffrey is also the ancestor of two additional U.S. gateway immigrants, William Randolph of "Turkey Island" and Sarah Ludlow, mother of Robert "King" Carter of "Corotoman," both of Virginia. (Randolph is an ancestor of Thomas Jefferson, and Carter is an ancestor of presidents William Henry Harrison and Benjamin Harrison.)
Leo, thank you for the lovely biography and for your expanded information on your featured continental ancestors of note.
Christine
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leo
Leo van de Pas
John Watson
Hi Leo,
I am just interested to know why you title Geoffrey as Markgraf, which
is surely a German title or description. He appears in contemporary
documents in Latin as "Gausfredus marchyo sive comes Provincie" which
I suppose could best be translated into English as Geoffrey marquis or
count of Provence, or maybe Geoffrey margrave or count of Provence.
Regards,
John
Leo
I am just interested to know why you title Geoffrey as Markgraf, which
is surely a German title or description. He appears in contemporary
documents in Latin as "Gausfredus marchyo sive comes Provincie" which
I suppose could best be translated into English as Geoffrey marquis or
count of Provence, or maybe Geoffrey margrave or count of Provence.
Regards,
John
Dear John Watson,
thanks for alerting me. Markgraf is in the caption of the e-mail (and at the moment on his file in my system). Margrave is in the biography. If you look at my website, the biography is not there yet.
You alerted me just in time. I prefer Margrave, as Markgraf is too German for a Frenchman but I feel (perhaps, I am wrong?) Marquis seem to belong to a later era. However, I feel that he was Count of Provence and so in his "genealogical segment" I will make him Comte d'Arles, Comte de Provence with the explanation about Margrave recorded in his biography.
Again thanks for pointing this out.
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia
Peter Stewart
"Leo" <can...@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.154.12811617...@rootsweb.com...
<snip>
> Geoffroy was the third son of Guillaume III, comte de Provence,
> and Gerberge de Bourgogne. He was joint count of Provence with
> his elder brothers Guillaume IV and Foulque Bertrand I from his
> father's death in 1018. It is possible that he did not carry the title
> of Count until after the death of his eldest brother Guillaume
> around 1032.
>
> He became count of Arles in 1032. On 26 May 1037 he and
> Foulque Bertrand are recorded as making a donation to the Abbey
> of Cluny. During his brother's life he was secondary to him. With
> the death of his brother he became sole count with the title
> marchyo sive comes Provincie. The title of marchio (margrave)
> implied that he was the head of the dynasty.
>
> With his wife Stephanie 'Dulcia' de Marseille, daughter of
> Bertrand de Marseille, he had a son Bertrand who would succeed
> him but leave no recorded progeny,
This is incorrect - in 1083 Bertrand married his daughter Cecile to
Bernard-Ato Trencavel, viscount of Albi & Nimes, by whom she left
descendants.
> and three daughters who would all have progeny. One daughter
> became the first wife of her cousin Raimond VI, comte de
> Toulouse;
This is not certain - the first wife of Raimond could have been a daughter
of Foulque Bertrand rather than of Geoffroy.
> another, Estefania, married Guillermo II Trunus, comte de
> Besalú et de Ripoll;
This too is most probably incorrect - it is not known for certain that
Guillermo II Trunus ever married. He was betrothed to Lucia of La Marche,
sister of Countess Almodis of Barcelona, but this union did not eventuate
and a quarrel broke out over its repudiation. Speculation making his wife a
lady named Estefania, supposed to be a daughter of Geoffroy (and
consequently several decades younger than her putative husband), is based on
confusion of name with the third wife of his father Guillermo I (she later
married Guislabert II of Rosselló), compounded with a guess from onomastics
for family origin.
Peter Stewart
taf
> Dear Chrstine,
> I don't think I have the line to Sarah Ludlow, is it difficult for you to show it?
>
> When I called up the names of interesting descendants, a huge list was presented, which is why I only gave a few subjects (no royals were mentioned), but the list of USA Presidents is quite large:
The reason for this huge list is his granddaughter's marriage. As
Countess of Barcelona, she was ancestor of every King of Aragon from
Alfonso II, every King of Castile and Leon after Alfonso VII, every
King of Portugal after Sancho I, every king of England after Henry
III, and every king of France after Louis VIII, and all their
descendants.
taf
CE Wood
Wasn't ES in error and her parents actually Guillaume II, le Gros,
Vicomte de Marseille (Guillermo II, Conte de Marsella) and Etiennette/
Estefania/Stèphanie de Rians?
Todd's post of 5 Aug 1998:
"1090-1100: Countess of Provence [Ref: Tapsell Dynasties p211]
Etiennette/Douce of Provence disappears from the historical record in
1063, only to reappear in 1094. Vajay concludes this is the same
Etiennette. In this he is supported by donations made by both
Etiennette, Countess of Provence, and Etiennette, Countess of Bigorre,
to the abbey of St. Victor de Marseille. Bertrand, Count of Provence,
the son of Etiennette, is named as a relative by several
contemporaries who have no known relationship on his father's side.
These are Guillaume Hughes des Baux, Aicard (of Marseille) archbishop
of Arles, Rostaine (de Fos) archbishop of Aix and his brother Amiel de
Fos, seigneur of Esparron. Looking at the families in the area of
Marseille, Vajay then comes up with a single couple that would unite
all of these relationships, and provide a nomenclatural link to boot.
This is the second marriage of Guillaume II, vicount of Marseille, to
Etiennette de Rians." Vajay [Aragon p277]
CE Wood
Peter Stewart
granddaughter's marriage" referred to Bertrand II's granddaughter, not
Geoffroy's. Todd's earlier post (5 Aug 1998) on the other hand refers to
Geoffroy's wife, the mother of Bertrand II.
Peter Stewart
On 8/08/2010 4:14 AM, CE Wood wrote:
> Stephanie 'Dulcia' de Marseille, daughter of Bertrand de Marseille?
> Wasn't ES in error and her parents actually Guillaume II, le Gros,
> Vicomte de Marseille (Guillermo II, Conte de Marsella) and Etiennette/
> Estefania/Stčphanie de Rians?
Christine Czarnecki
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Christine Czarnecki <czar...@sbcglobal.net>
To: Leo <can...@netspeed.com.au>
Sent: Sat, August 7, 2010 7:29:19 PM
Subject: Re: Geoffroy, Comte d'Arles, Markgraf of Provence
Leo, et al,
I know you have found the Geoffroy to Sarah Ludlow line, but just for
entertainment's sake, here is one line of descent to the Harrison presidents:
1. Geoffroy, Comte d'Arles, Margrave of Provence = Stefanie "Dulcia" de
Marseilles
2. Gerbera, Comtesse d'Arles = Gilbert, Comte de Gevaudan
3. Aldonza/Doulce/Dulcia de Gevaudan = Ramon Berenguer III "el Grande," Count
of Barcelona, Provence, and Carcassonne
4. Raymund Berengar IV, Count of Barcelona = Petronella, Queen of Aragon
5. Alfonso II "the Chaste," King of Aragon = Sancha of Castille
6. Alfonso II, Comte de Provence = Gersende de Sabran
7. Raimund Berengar V, Comte de Provence et Forcalquier = Béatrice de Savoie
8. Eleanor of Provence = Henry III, King of England
9. Edmund "Crouchback," Earl of Lancaster and Leicester = Blanche d'Artois
10. Henry Plantagenet, 3rd Earl of Lancaster and Leicester = Maud de Chaworth
11. Eleanor of Lancaster = Richard FitzAlan de Arundel, 9th Earl of Arundel
12. Sir John de Arundel, 1st Baron Arundel = Eleanor Mautravers
13. Joan Arundel = Sir William de Echingham (Echyngham)
14. Sir Thomas de Echingham (Echyngham) = Margaret Knyvet (Knyvett)
15. Sir Thomas de Echingham = Margaret West
16. Margaret Echingham = Sir William Blount, of Mountjoy
17. Elizabeth Blount = Sir Andrews Windsor, Baron Windsor of Stanwell
18. Edith Windsor = George Ludlow, Esq.
19. Thomas Ludlow = Jane Pyle
20. Gabriel Ludlow, Esq. = Phyllis (--?--)
21. Sarah Ludlow = Col. John Carter of "Corotoman," VA, as his 4th wife
22. Robert "King" Carter of "Corotoman" = Elizabeth Landon (his 2nd wife)
23. Ann Carter of "Corotoman" = Benjamin Harrison, IV, of "Berkeley"
24. Gov. Benjamin Harrison V, of "Berkeley," = Elizabeth Bassett
25. Pres. William Henry Harrison = Anna Tuthill Symmes
26. John Scott Harrison = Elizabeth Ramsay Irwin, as his 2nd wife
27. Pres. Benjamin Harrison = (1) Mary Scott Lord Dimmick and (2) Caroline
Lavinia Scott
________________________________
From: Leo <can...@netspeed.com.au>
To: Christine Czarnecki <czar...@sbcglobal.net>; GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sat, August 7, 2010 12:39:02 AM
Subject: Re: Geoffroy, Comte d'Arles, Markgraf of Provence
My mistake. I had not marked off Sarah Ludlow as a Gateway Ancestor and so she
did not show up. I have her line to this Geoffrey in my system.
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
>From: Christine Czarnecki
>To: Leo ; GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 5:10 PM
>Subject: Re: Geoffroy, Comte d'Arles, Markgraf of Provence
>
>
>Geoffrey is also the ancestor of two additional U.S. gateway immigrants, William
>Randolph of "Turkey Island" and Sarah Ludlow, mother of Robert "King" Carter of
> "Corotoman," both of Virginia. (Randolph is an ancestor of Thomas Jefferson,
>and Carter is an ancestor of presidents William Henry Harrison and Benjamin
>Harrison.)
>
>Leo, thank you for the lovely biography and for your expanded information on
>your featured continental ancestors of note.
>
>Christine
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Leo <can...@netspeed.com.au>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Sent: Fri, August 6, 2010 11:15:19 PM
>Subject: Geoffroy, Comte d'Arles, Markgraf of Provence
>
>This Frenchman has quite a number of genealogists amongst his descendants:
>Don Stone, John Ravilious, Renia Simmons, Doug McDonald, Michael Welch, Andrew
>MacEwen, Gary Boyd Roberts, Tim Powys-Lybbe, Ian Fettes, Richard
>Carruthers-Zurowski, Brom Nichol, Hans Vogels, James Cummings, Tony Hoskins,
>Merilyn Pedrick, Gordon Banks and several more.
>
>I have two Gateways to Brazil for him, Francisco II de Sousa, governor of
>Brazil, and Maria Pimentel Drummond.
>
>Gateways to North America, just some : Hon. George Percy, Sir Ralph Lane, Sir
>Ferdinando Gorges, Capt. John West, Col. Edward Digges, Katherine St.Leger, Rev.
>John Oxenbridge, Katherine Neville, Sir Francis Wyatt, Rev. Hawte Wyatt, Capt.
>George Popham, Mary Fulford and more.
>
>I hope this biography is of interest and any corrections will be gratefully
>received.
>
>With best wishes
>Leo van de Pas
>Canberra, Australia
>
>Geoffroy was the third son of Guillaume III, comte de Provence, and Gerberge de
>Bourgogne. He was joint count of Provence with his elder brothers Guillaume IV
>and Foulque Bertrand I from his father's death in 1018. It is possible that he
>did not carry the title of Count until after the death of his eldest brother
>Guillaume around 1032.
>
>He became count of Arles in 1032. On 26 May 1037 he and Foulque Bertrand are
>recorded as making a donation to the Abbey of Cluny. During his brother's life
>he was secondary to him. With the death of his brother he became sole count with
>the title marchyo sive comes Provincie. The title of marchio (margrave) implied
>that he was the head of the dynasty.
>
>With his wife Stephanie 'Dulcia' de Marseille, daughter of Bertrand de
>Marseille, he had a son Bertrand who would succeed him but leave no recorded
taf
> In Todd's post below from the current thread (7 Aug 2010) "his
> granddaughter's marriage" referred to Bertrand II's granddaughter, not
> Geoffroy's. Todd's earlier post (5 Aug 1998) on the other hand refers to
> Geoffroy's wife, the mother of Bertrand II.
We, confusingly, have two Dulces, each sister or daughter of a
Bertrand. Just to be sure everyone is clear on this, in my post
earlier today I was referring to the daughter of Gilbert of Gevaudan
and Gerberga of Provence. I was following the older consensus that
Gerberga was daughter of Geoffrey, making Dulce Geoffrey's
granddaughter. I am aware, however, that it has been proposed that
Gerberga was daughter of Bertrand and not his sister, but I have not
laid eyes on the relevant papers (in fact, I haven't looked at any of
this stuff in the dozen years since when I made that other post).
As C.E. pointed out, Vajay's argument was that the older Dulce (who I
suspect was given the name Stephanie and only nicknamed Dulce,
'sweetie' if you will) was sister of another Bertrand, of Marseille. I
was not aware that ES had her as daughter, but this would just as well
match Vajay's argument - since there is no direct documentation, it
would come down to chronology, but barring some new documentation,
chronology would only enable a conclusion that Stephanie/Dulce was
granddaughter rather than daughter, not allow he to be definitively
placed as daughter of a particular child of theirs, Bertrand.
taf
Peter Stewart
"taf" <t...@clearwire.net> wrote in message
news:3846b156-48cb-4bdb...@c10g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 7, 4:39 pm, Peter Stewart <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > In Todd's post below from the current thread (7 Aug 2010) "his
> > granddaughter's marriage" referred to Bertrand II's granddaughter,
> > not Geoffroy's. Todd's earlier post (5 Aug 1998) on the other
> > hand refers to Geoffroy's wife, the mother of Bertrand II.
>
>
> We, confusingly, have two Dulces, each sister or daughter of a
> Bertrand. Just to be sure everyone is clear on this, in my post
> earlier today I was referring to the daughter of Gilbert of
> Gevaudan and Gerberga of Provence. I was following the older
> consensus that Gerberga was daughter of Geoffrey, making
> Dulce Geoffrey's granddaughter. I am aware, however, that it
> has been proposed that Gerberga was daughter of Bertrand
> and not his sister, but I have not laid eyes on the relevant
> papers (in fact, I haven't looked at any of this stuff in the
> dozen years since when I made that other post).
And I made confusion doubly confused by referring to "Bertrand's
granddaughter, not Geoffroy's" when I should have written "Geoffroy's
granddaughter, not his wife".
Where is Gerberga said to have been a daughter of Bertrand? I noticed this
relationship given in the table (Fig. 2) on p. 34 of Jean-Pierre Poly's _La
Provence et la société féodale (879-1166): contribution à l'étude des
structures dites féodales dans le Midi_ (Paris, 1976), and lazily I didn't
look further before posting.
However, it turns out that Poly did not agree with the table in his own
book - on p. 318 he stated that Bertrand's only daughter was Cecile (who
married Bernard-Ato Trencavel, as mentioned before), and that Gerberga (who
married Gilbert of Gevaudan) was actually his sister.
Has an arguement been published for a father-daughter relationship between
Bertrand and Gerberga, rather than brother-sister?
Peter Stewart
M Sjostrom
(as it is today),
is margrave Bertrand/Bernard,
himself son of:
this
Joffroi, comte de Arles, margrave of Provence
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00164203&tree=LEO
and his wife
Stephanie 'Dulce' of Marseille
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00141479&tree=LEO
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00164204&tree=LEO
the said
Bernard/Bertrand, margrave of Provence, comte de Arles (born in est 1040s;
died in c1094)
married (bef c1062) a noblewoman named Mathilde/Matelle
And their ascertained daughter was:
Cecile de Provence (born est 1070)
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00438864&tree=LEO
her Albi-Nimes marriage seems to have taken place in 1083
But, Cecile may have had an (elder) sister (and Bertrand with Matelle
another daughter):
Tiburge/Gerberge de Provence, comtesse de Arles
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00120775&tree=LEO
whom I estimate born between est 1065-1080
and died after est 1110
Alternatively, this heiress Tiburge/Gerberge would have been Bertrand's
sister and thusly a daughter of Joffroi (d Febr 1061) and Stephanie
That Tiburge would have been daughter of Bertrand II, and not his youngest
full sister,
is afaik mostly based on chronological considerations: Tiburge's own
marriage and births of her two daughters do not fit well to a lady born
already in 1061 or earlier.
Why would she have remained unmarried so long?
and is it really plausible that her both daughters would be born almost 40
years, or more, after that 1061, had she been herself born that early.
-----
Guilhem II, vicomte de Marseille
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00164724&tree=LEO
should have been -according to Vajay, I believe- the correct father (instead
of a Bertrand of Marseille) of the much-mentioned
Stephanie 'Dulce' of Marseille
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00141479&tree=LEO
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00164204&tree=LEO
who (firstly) married margrave Joffroi (died in Febr 1061)
and Stephanie 'Dulce' (died after 1094) married again: her second husband
(married after 1061) was -according to argumentation presented by Vajay-
Bernat II, count of Bigorra
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00141477&tree=LEO
Peter Stewart
"M Sjostrom" <mqs...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.185.12812716...@rootsweb.com...
First, her name was Gerberge and not Tiburge - this is an old mistake that
was corrected in _Histoire générale de Languedoc_ (HGL).
Secondly, there have been several explanations offered for the inheritance
passing from Bertrand to Gerberge rather than to his known daughter Cécile.
Georges de Manteyer, followed by Szabolcs de Vajay, noted the Provençal
custom whereby daughters who had received dowries were eliminated from
inheriting - and we have the marriage contract from 1083 in which Bertrand
endowed Cécile on her betrothal to Bernard-Ato. On the other hand in _HGL_
it was suggested that Cécile was illegitimate, based on a (dubious) document
in which her mother is named as Alemburc instead of Mathilde, the known wife
of Bertrand.
It may be that Gerberga preserved her rights of inheritance by not marrying
before her father's (or perhaps even her brother's) death - there were no
male heirs and no other females eligible to inherit and able to bear
children after the marriage of 1083; for all we know she might have left a
convent to marry Gilbert of Gévaudan when in her mid- to late-30s.
Peter Stewart
taf
>
> Has an arguement been published for a father-daughter relationship between
> Bertrand and Gerberga, rather than brother-sister?
Yes, but I don't remember where, and am (still, or rather again) away
from home so I can't check. I never followed up on it, so I can't
even be sure that there is anything to it.
taf
M Sjostrom
And I assume that there is no explicit contemporary source to say that she
were sister.
The only thing I can do is to look at the evidence.
Another point to support that Gerberge was actually daughter of Bertrand by
his wife Matelle/ Mathilde, is onomastical: the rise and appearances of the
name Matelle in the progeny of Gerberge.
Gerberge's daughter, Stephanie 'Etiennette' de Gevaudan
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00139601&tree=LEO
had two children, named Matelle and Bertrand.
And the name Mathe (Matelle) repeats in the progeny of the said Matelle des
Baux.
I think that an idea that Gerberge, heiress of Provence, would have been in
a monastery to such an age, is relatively implausible. Not totally
impossible, but not too likely.
This is because
(a) the custom also was that a nun had lost her right of inheritance, so a
nun would not have been in a position to succeed
(b) a nun certainly had brought her dowry to the monastery, and received
thusly a dowry. Therefore a nun would not have been in any better position
to inheritance than her kinswomen who had received their dowries to a
marriage.
Plus, it was a complicated process to be allowed to marry if a woman had
already entered a nunnery (which however was necessary in order to have her
progeny allowed to inherit legitimately in their turn). Such a thing would
by some likelihood have left some mention in ecclesiastical or chronicle
documentation.
By the way, seeing how even Provencal dynasties occasionally face a dearth
of other heirs than those women who already married and their progeny,
(because not even provencal families are guaranteed against stochastics)
I think that a woman who had received a dowry, was not totally excluded from
succession; she merely was held to defer in favor of her unmarried female
kin who thusly had a preferment to inheritance.
2010/8/8 M Sjostrom <mqs...@gmail.com>
>
> one of the important personages yet missing from Genealogics online version
> (as it is today),
> is margrave Bertrand/Bernard,
> himself son of:
> this
> Joffroi, comte de Arles, margrave of Provence
> http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00164203&tree=LEO
> and his wife
> Stephanie 'Dulce' of Marseille
> http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00141479&tree=LEO
> http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00164204&tree=LEO
>
>
> the said
> Bernard/Bertrand, margrave of Provence, comte de Arles (born in est 1040s;
> died in c1094)
> married (bef c1062) a noblewoman named Mathilde/Matelle
>
>
Peter Stewart
>I cannot know whether Gerberge was daughter or sister of margrave Bertrand.
> And I assume that there is no explicit contemporary source to say that she
> were sister.
None that is extant as far as I know, but apparently something came to light
about this between 1655 (when Antoine de Ruffi, in _Histoire des comtes
Provence_, thought that Gerberge was named Tiburge and was a daughter of
Thibaud, count of Rodez & Gévaudan) and 1712 (when his son Louis-Antoine, in
_Dissertations historiques et critiques sur l'origine des comtes de
Provence..._, corrected her name to Gerberge and made her a daughter of
Geoffroy). The consensus since has followed this, for instance in the
1872-1904 edition of _Histoire générale de Languedoc_, in Georges de
Manteyer's _La Provence du premier au douzième siècle_ and at least in the
text of in Jean-Pierre Poly's _La Provence et la société féodale
(879-1166)_. It would be helpful if Todd or anyone else can come up with a
citation for the work he mentioned challenging this.
> The only thing I can do is to look at the evidence.
>
> Another point to support that Gerberge was actually daughter of Bertrand
> by
> his wife Matelle/ Mathilde, is onomastical: the rise and appearances of
> the
> name Matelle in the progeny of Gerberge.
For all I know it may have been largely onomastics that prompted L-A de
Ruffi to correct his father - Gerberge had daughters named Stefania and
Douce, the alternative names of Geoffroy's wife.
> Gerberge's daughter, Stephanie 'Etiennette' de Gevaudan
> http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00139601&tree=LEO
> had two children, named Matelle and Bertrand.
> And the name Mathe (Matelle) repeats in the progeny of the said Matelle
> des
> Baux.
The repetition of the specific form "Matelle" could be misleading -
Bertrand's wife was called "Matildis" in every document I have seen.
> I think that an idea that Gerberge, heiress of Provence, would have been
> in
> a monastery to such an age, is relatively implausible. Not totally
> impossible, but not too likely.
I find an actuarial approach to medieval genealogy rather risky, especially
in the absence of circumstantial evidence for the rule rather than an
exception.
> This is because
> (a) the custom also was that a nun had lost her right of inheritance, so a
> nun would not have been in a position to succeed
> (b) a nun certainly had brought her dowry to the monastery, and received
> thusly a dowry. Therefore a nun would not have been in any better position
> to inheritance than her kinswomen who had received their dowries to a
> marriage.
Where do you find examples of a Provençal custom equating the endowment of a
nunnery on behalf of a postulate sworn to poverty with the dowry of a
worldly bride who was meant to have the benefit of it?
> Plus, it was a complicated process to be allowed to marry if a woman had
> already entered a nunnery (which however was necessary in order to have
> her
> progeny allowed to inherit legitimately in their turn). Such a thing would
> by some likelihood have left some mention in ecclesiastical or chronicle
> documentation.
There are no narrative sources for Gerberge as far as I'm aware. In any
case, the vows of a nun were much easier to undo than marriage vows.
> By the way, seeing how even Provencal dynasties occasionally face a dearth
> of other heirs than those women who already married and their progeny,
> (because not even provencal families are guaranteed against stochastics)
> I think that a woman who had received a dowry, was not totally excluded
> from
> succession; she merely was held to defer in favor of her unmarried female
> kin who thusly had a preferment to inheritance.
Gerberge herself evidently resorted to a legal ruse in passing on Provence
to her daughter - in order to preserve her eligibility she gave it to her
two days before betrothing her.
Peter Stewart