New evidence for maternity of Gladys Dhu, wife of Ralph de Mortimer
Douglas Richardson
It is a well known fact that Gladys Dhu, wife of Ralph de Mortimer
(died 1246), Baron of Wigmore, co. Hereford, was a daughter of
Llywelyn ap Iowerth, Prince of North Wales. Until now, however, the
name of her mother has been somewhat murky. Prince Llywelyn had
several wives and several mistresses and sorting out which children
belong to which mother has been difficult at best.
In my earlier research, I noted that Gladys accompanied her legitimate
brother, David, on his trip to London in 1229, when he went to do
homage to his uncle, King Henry III. That fact alone would suggest
that Gladys was David's full sister. If so, then Gladys would be a
daughter of Prince Llywelyn's last wife, Joan, illegitimate daughter
of King John of England.
However, better evidence has now surfaced which I think conclusively
proves that Gladys was Llywelyn and Joan's daughter. In an
interesting chapter entitled "The Mortimer Family and the Making of
the March," in the book, Thirteenth Century England VI (published in
1995, pages 117-126), J. J. Crump reveals for the first time that
Prince Llywelyn had the manors of Knighton and Norton, Shropshire in
free marriage with his wife, Princess Joan, and that these manors were
settled soon after Gladys' marriage on her husband, Ralph de Mortimer.
Mr. Crump gives for his sources as following: CAC Wales, 23, and
Liber Niger, fol. 68v.
The transfer of the Shropshire manors follows the pattern of Llywelyn
and Joan's other known daughter, Ellen, who similarly was given
property in England which her mother, Joan, had in marriage by gift of
Joan's father, King John. As such, I can only conclude that Gladys
was in fact Llywelyn and Joan's legitimate daughter.
The numerous colonial immigrants who have a descent from Glady Dhu,
wife of Ralph de Mortimer, are listed below. Further details on the
individual descents will appear in my forthcoming book, Plantagenet
Ancestry, 3rd edition. For those interested in obtaining a copy of
the book, please contact me privately at my e-mail address below.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - - -
List of Immigrants descended from Gladys Dhu of North Wales:
1. Robert Abell.
2. Dannett Abney.
3. William Asfordby.
4. Barbara Aubrey.
5. Henry & Thomas Batte.
6. Anne Baynton.
7. Richard & William Bernard.
8. John Bevan.
9. Essex Beville.
10. William Bladen.
11. George & Nehemiah Blakiston.
12. Joseph Bolles.
13. Thomas Booth.
14. Elizabeth Bosvile.
15. Mary Bourchier.
16. George, Giles & Robert Brent.
17. Obadiah Bruen.
18. Stephen Bull.
19. Charles Calvert.
20. Edward Carleton.
21. Kenelm Cheseldine.
22. Grace Chetwode.
23. Jeremy Clarke.
24. James & Norton Claypoole.
25. St. Leger Codd.
26. Henry Corbin.
27. Elizabeth Coytemore.
28. Francis Dade.
29. Humphrey Davie.
30. Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton.
31. Edward Digges.
32. Thomas Dudley.
33. Rowland Ellis.
34. William Farrar.
35. John Fenwick.
36. John Fisher.
37. Henry Fleete.
38. Edward Foliot.
39. Thomas Goddard.
40. Muriel Gurdon.
41. Mary Gye.
42. Elizabeth & John Harleston.
43. Jane Haviland.
44. Warham Horsmanden.
45. Anne Humphrey.
46. Edmund Jennings.
47. Mary Launce.
48. Samuel Levis.
49. Thomas Ligon.
50. Nathaniel Littleton.
51. Thomas Lloyd.
52. Anne Lovelace.
53. Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe.
54. Percival Lowell.
55. Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow.
56. Thomas Lunsford.
57. Agnes Mackworth.
58. Roger & Thomas Mallory.
59. Oliver Manwaring.
60. Anne & Katherine Marbury.
61. Elizabeth Marshall.
62. Anne Mauleverer.
63. Joseph Need.
64. John Nelson.
65. Philip & Thomas Nelson.
66. Ellen Newton.
67. Joshua Owen.
68. Thomas Owsley.
69. John Oxenbridge.
70. Richard Palsgrave.
71. Herbert Pelham.
72. Robert Peyton.
73. William Poole.
74. Henry & William Randolph.
75. George Reade.
76. William Rodney.
77. Katherine Saint Leger.
78. Richard Saltonstall.
79. Anthony Savage.
80. William Skepper.
81. Diana & Grey Skipwith.
82. Maria Johanna Somerset.
83. John Stockman.
84. John Throckmorton.
85. John & Lawrence Washington.
86. Olive Welby.
87. John West.
88. Francis Willoughby.
89. Thomas Wingfield.
90. Mary Wolseley.
91. Hawte Wyatt.
92. Amy Wyllys.
Chris Phillips
> It is a well known fact that Gladys Dhu, wife of Ralph de Mortimer
> (died 1246), Baron of Wigmore, co. Hereford, was a daughter of
> Llywelyn ap Iowerth, Prince of North Wales. Until now, however, the
> name of her mother has been somewhat murky. Prince Llywelyn had
> several wives and several mistresses and sorting out which children
> belong to which mother has been difficult at best.
>
> In my earlier research, I noted that Gladys accompanied her legitimate
> brother, David, on his trip to London in 1229, when he went to do
> homage to his uncle, King Henry III. That fact alone would suggest
> that Gladys was David's full sister. If so, then Gladys would be a
> daughter of Prince Llywelyn's last wife, Joan, illegitimate daughter
> of King John of England.
>
> However, better evidence has now surfaced which I think conclusively
> proves that Gladys was Llywelyn and Joan's daughter.
Gladys' mother is said to be Joan in the Complete Peerage article on
Mortimer (vol.9, p.276), but the only reference given is Annales Monastici
(Rolls Series [36]) vol.iv, p.421 [Annals of Worcester]), which says only
that Ralph de Mortimer married a daughter of Llewelyn, who was formerly the
wife of Reynold de Braose.
Chris Phillips
canberra
At first I was pleased with this finding and was willing to accept. However,
in my data base I had recorded that Gwladus Ddu was born circa 1194/1198 in
Gwynedd, Wales. To my shame, it is not clear to me where this information
came from. I have a remark amongst her sources that some of the information
I have came from Dr. Suzanne Doig as well as from Leslie Mahler. If that
birth period is correct, then I doubt she is the daughter of Joan, as Joan
did not get married until 1205. Gwladus Ddu married her first husband about
1215, which makes her from 21 to 17 years old at that marriage, and 36 to 34
at the second.
I hope Dr. Doig or Leslie Mahler can throw some more light on this matter.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
D. Spencer Hines
that Gladys' mother was Tangwystl, another mistress of Llewellyn.
AR7 Line 27.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
Warriors ---- "There is much tradition and mystique in the bequest of
personal weapons to a surviving comrade in arms. It has to do with a
continuation of values past individual mortality. People living in a
time made safe for them by others may find this difficult to
understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
-------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"canberra" <leov...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:003d01c16564$9c6b57a0$d557868b@leo...
The Thill Group, Inc.
Griffith, 1914 ed., pg 309, Shows Gwladus ddu = Sir Ralph Mortimer, Baron of
Wigmore as being the child of Llewelyn the Great ob 1240 and Tanglwst, d. of
Llowarch Goch, of Rhos, ap Llowarch Hwlbwrch.
Becky T
----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Spencer Hines" <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: New evidence for maternity of Gladys Dhu, wife of Ralph de
Mortimer
Douglas Richardson
On November 7th, I posted a list of colonial immigrants who descend
from Gladys Dhu, wife of Ralph de Mortimer, and daughter of Llywelyn
ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales. Due to the continued strong
interest in the Llywelyn's family and the current series of threads on
his wife, Joan's mother, Clemence, I'm posting a list of colonial
immigrants who descend from Llywelyn and Joan's legitimate daughter,
Ellen, wife of Robert de Quincy. All of the descents from Ellen will
be found in the forthcoming book, Plantagenet Ancestry, 3rd edition.
For those interested in the list of Gladys' colonial descendants, I
have reposted it further below. By sheer numbers, it appears Gladys'
descendants outnumber the descendants of her sister, Ellen, by a
factor of 3 to 1.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
- - - - - -
List of immigrants who descend from Ellen of North Wales, wife of
Robert de Quincy:
1. Barbara Aubrey.
2. Anne Baynton.
3. John Bevan.
4. William Bladen.
5. Elizabeth Bosvile.
6. Stephen Bull.
7. Charles Calvert.
8. Jeremy Clarke.
9. St. Leger Codd.
10. Edward Digges.
11. Thomas Dudley.
12. Richard Ellis.
13. John Fenwick.
14. Henry Fleete.
15. William Goddard.
16. Jane Haviland.
17. Warham Horsmanden.
18. Anne Humphrey.
19. Nathaniel Littleton.
20. Thomas Lloyd.
21. John Nelson.
22. Philip & Thomas Nelson.
23. John Oxenbridge.
24. Herbert Pelham.
25. Henry & William Randolph.
26. Katherine St. Leger.
27. Maria Johanna Somerset.
28. John Stockman.
29. John & Lawrence Washington.
30. John West.
31. Thomas Wingfield.
32. Hawte Wyatt.
> - - - - - - - - - -
>
> List of Immigrants descended from Gladys Dhu of North Wales, wife of Ralph de > Mortimer:
Douglas Richardson
I inadvertedly overlooked three colonists who descend from Llywelyn's
daughter, Ellen of North Wales, wife of Robert de Quincy. These three
additional colonists are:
1. Grace Chetwode.
2. Agnes Mackworth.
3. Thomas Owsley.
The other colonists who descend from Ellen are listed below, as are
those who descend from Ellen's sister, Gladys Dhu, wife of Ralph de
Mortimer.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - - -
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.01111...@posting.google.com>...
Jerry W. Murphy
from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales, I was wondering if the
following line can be confirmed:
1. Llewelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales (1173-1240), and Tangwystl.
2. Helen of Wales (d. aft1295) and Donald, 10th Earl of Mar.
3. Isabel of Mar (c1276-c1302) and Robert I, King of Scots.
4. Margery Bruce (c1296-1315/6) and Walter, 6th High Steward.
5. Robert II, King of Scots (1315/6-1390), and Elizabeth Mure of Rowallan.
6. Robert Stewart, 1st Duke of Albany (c1340-1420), and Margaret Grahame,
Countess of Menteith.
7. Marjory Stewart (1372-bef1432) and Duncan Campbell of Lochow.
8. Archibald/Gillespic/Celestin Campbell (1393-bef1440) and Elizabeth
Sommerville.
9. Colin Campbell, 1st Earl of Argyll (d. 1493), and Isabel Stewart of Lorn.
10. Archibald Campbell, 2nd Earl of Argyll (c1466-1513), and Elizabeth
Stewart.
11. Donald Campbell, Abbot of Coupar (1492-1562), and Margaret Gordon???.
12. Nicholas (Nicol) Campbell of Keithock (1517-1587) and Katherine Drummond
of Blair.
13. Margaret Campbell (c1571-1631) and Alexander MacGregor.
14. Alexander Magruder (1610-1677) of Calvert County, Maryland.
Lines 1-3 can be found in "Ancestral Roots, 7th Edition" by Frederick Lewis
Weis, Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr. and David Faris on page 224, line 252. It
lists Isabel of Mar as daughter of Donald, 6th Earl of Mar. A write up I
have on Mar which used three references (Cokayne: "Complete Peerage", Vol.
vii, p. 390, Vol. viii, p. 398; Weis: "Magna Charta", p. 5; Paul: "Scot's
Peerage", Vol. v, p. 566-89) lists Donald as the 10th Earl of Mar. Was he
the 6th or the 10th Earl of Mar?
Lines 5-14 can be found in "The Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants" by Gary
Boyd Roberts on page 99.
Jerry W. Murphy
jwm_ge...@hotmail.com
Jerry's Homepage: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jwmurphy/
Rootsweb List Administrator: ALFRANKL-L, TNHARDIN-L, TNWAYNE-L,
BRATTON-L, COCHRAN-L, HAFLEY-L, PATTERSON-L, SOWERBY-L
Wayne County, Tennessee Web Page: http://www.netease.net/wayne
Wayne County Computer Club: http://www.netease.net/waccc
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
all are out of print & totally unavailable & un-orderable (in france & on the net) unless found somewhere 2nd hand, which I found
surprising, as I understand there are recent re-editions about...
I'm wondering if anybody has any of these as text files to share...
Annie
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Jerry W. Murphy <jwm_ge...@hotmail.com>
Ą : GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Date : mardi 20 novembre 2001 07:03
Objet : Another descend from Llewelyn, Prince of North Wales
D. Spencer Hines
| I recently tried to purchase a number of books like Faris' PA, Weiss,
| & the Settipani works [sic] on Antiquity lines, but was told that all
| are out of print & totally unavailable & un-orderable (in france [sic]
| & on the net) unless found somewhere 2nd hand, which I found
| surprising, as I understand there are recent re-editions about...
|
| I'm wondering if anybody has any of these as text files to share...
|
| Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
And break someone's copyright?
Appalling! Indeed, criminal!
Deus Vult.
Ph.J. van Dael
"Annie Natalelli-Waloszek" <Xan...@Wanadoo.fr> schreef in bericht
news:01c171b7$5104afa0$LocalHost@fti/62hzcyc...
William Addams Reitwiesner
>I recently tried to purchase a number of books like Faris' PA, Weiss,
>& the Settipani works on Antiquity lines, but was told that
>all are out of print & totally unavailable & un-orderable
>(in france & on the net) unless found somewhere 2nd hand, which I found
>surprising, as I understand there are recent re-editions about...
>
>I'm wondering if anybody has any of these as text files to share...
I have at least one of those works you mention in machine-readable form
(i.e., text file), but what I don't have is the permission of the copyright
claimant(s) to share the file with you or anyone else.
--
Ceterum censeo DSH delendam esse.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
malinda
searchable text form) ?
~m
William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:
> Xan...@Wanadoo.fr (Annie Natalelli-Waloszek) wrote:
>
> >I recently tried to purchase a number of books like Faris' PA, Weiss,
> >& the Settipani works on Antiquity lines, but was told that
> >all are out of print & totally unavailable & un-orderable
> >(in france & on the net) unless found somewhere 2nd hand, which I found
> >surprising, as I understand there are recent re-editions about...
> >
> >I'm wondering if anybody has any of these as text files to share...
>
William Addams Reitwiesner
mthi...@swbell.net (malinda) wrote:
>William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:
>
>> Xan...@Wanadoo.fr (Annie Natalelli-Waloszek) wrote:
>>
>> >I recently tried to purchase a number of books like Faris' PA, Weiss,
>> >& the Settipani works on Antiquity lines, but was told that
>> >all are out of print & totally unavailable & un-orderable
>> >(in france & on the net) unless found somewhere 2nd hand, which I found
>> >surprising, as I understand there are recent re-editions about...
>> >
>> >I'm wondering if anybody has any of these as text files to share...
>>
>> I have at least one of those works you mention in machine-readable form
>> (i.e., text file), but what I don't have is the permission of the copyright
>> claimant(s) to share the file with you or anyone else.
>>
>Is there any possibility any of these books could be released on CD (in
>searchable text form) ?
Not by me.
Heather Olsen
: I recently tried to purchase a number of books like Faris' PA, Weiss, & the Settipani works on Antiquity lines, but was told that
: all are out of print & totally unavailable & un-orderable (in france & on the net) unless found somewhere 2nd hand, which I found
: surprising, as I understand there are recent re-editions about...
: I'm wondering if anybody has any of these as text files to share...
You might try www.half.com, a site that sells used books at fairly
reasonable prices. Even if they don't have a particular title right now,
you can enter the info on the book you are interested in, and they will
notify you if it becomes available.
Nathaniel Taylor
jwm_ge...@hotmail.com (Jerry W. Murphy) wrote:
>After reading Douglas Richardson's list of colonial immigrants descended
>from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales, I was wondering if the
>following line can be confirmed:
>
>1. Llewelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales (1173-1240), and Tangwystl.
>2. Helen of Wales (d. aft1295) and Donald, 10th Earl of Mar.
...
>14. Alexander Magruder (1610-1677) of Calvert County, Maryland.
Yes, this seems OK, though Magruder's father was also a
'Magruder'--MacGregor is a different name. Actually there is a largish
number of US colonial descendants of Llywelyn through this Elen's Scottis
marriages, and through other lines which do not connect to John's daughter
Joan. Doug's original intent (though it was unclear from his posts) was
to list the descendants of Llywelyn that have a descent from King John,
and thus fit into the purview of his _Plantagenet Ancestry_ revision. In
fact several of the Scots-descended US colonial immigrants, like Magruder
[and most, I would guess, of the people on pp. 86-102 of Roberts' RD500,
with descents from Robert II and Robert III], have 14th-century royal
ancestry, but do not have any Plantagenet lines, as the Scots royalty and
their children married Scottish brides, or non-royally-connected English
barons.
Nat Taylor
Jerry W. Murphy
From: "Nathaniel Taylor" <nta...@post.harvard.edu>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: Another descen from Llewelyn
> In article <OE14n7NFet6Gm...@hotmail.com>,
> jwm_ge...@hotmail.com (Jerry W. Murphy) wrote:
>
> >After reading Douglas Richardson's list of colonial immigrants descended
> >from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales, I was wondering if the
> >following line can be confirmed:
> >
> >1. Llewelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales (1173-1240), and
Tangwystl.
> >2. Helen of Wales (d. aft1295) and Donald, 10th Earl of Mar.
>
> ...
>
> >14. Alexander Magruder (1610-1677) of Calvert County, Maryland.
>
> Yes, this seems OK, though Magruder's father was also a
> 'Magruder'--MacGregor is a different name.
<snip>
It was my understanding that the family changed their name from MacGregor to
Magruder. I don't have any actual evidence this happened but here is what is
written in the book, "A History of Calvert County, Maryland", by Charles
Francis Stein, p. 294:
"......Alexander Magruder was born Alexander MacGregor. The clan MacGregor
were suppressed by the English, and their members were forbidden to use the
clan name MacGregor; hence some of the clan took the name of Magruder......"
Nathaniel Taylor
>> >13. Margaret Campbell (c1571-1631) and Alexander MacGregor.
>> >14. Alexander Magruder (1610-1677) of Calvert County, Maryland.
>>
>> ... Magruder's father was also a 'Magruder'--MacGregor is a different name.
>
>It was my understanding that the family changed their name from MacGregor to
>Magruder. I don't have any actual evidence this happened but here is what is
>written in the book, "A History of Calvert County, Maryland", by Charles
>Francis Stein, p. 294:
>
>"......Alexander Magruder was born Alexander MacGregor. The clan MacGregor
>were suppressed by the English, and their members were forbidden to use the
>clan name MacGregor; hence some of the clan took the name of Magruder......"
This (in the book you cite, published in second edition in 1960-61) was
the conventional wisdom on the subject at the time; and the Maryland
Magruders have joined (or indeed were active in forming) the 'American
Clan Gregor Society' based on this understanding. However, more accurate
recent scholarship on the subject shows that Alexander Magruder was indeed
born 'Magruder', Magruder is simply a distinct & known Scots surname, and
there is no traceable connection between the families. See Charles G.
Kurz & Thomas G. Magruder, Jr., "The Ancestral History of Margaret
Campbell of Keithick," _Yearbook of the American Clan Gregor Society_,
62 (1978), 55-65; and especially "The McGruder Lineage in Scotland to
Magruder Family in America," _Yearbook..._ 63 (1979), 53-71.
The irony of Kurz publishing an account of the Magruders as a distinct
family in the _Yearbook of the American Clan Gregor Society_ seems to have
gone unappreciated by many descendants. Brice Clagett has researched the
Maryland Magruder immigration and the Magruder family in Scotland since
this; we look forward to the published appearance of his work.
My suspicion is that the logic that "The clan MacGregor were suppressed by
the English, and their members were forbidden to use the clan name
MacGregor; hence some of the clan took the name of Magruder," represents
two layers of incorrect thinking. The original idea must have been that
'Magruder' is close enough to 'Magregor' to be the same name; then, when
this was disproven, someone who remained wedded to the idea of 'MacGregor'
descent decided that 'Magruder' must have been a consciously-chosen name.
Nat Taylor
Nathaniel Taylor
>> >13. Margaret Campbell (c1571-1631) and Alexander MacGregor.
>> >14. Alexander Magruder (1610-1677) of Calvert County, Maryland.
>>
>> ... Magruder's father was also a 'Magruder'--MacGregor is a different name.
>
>It was my understanding that the family changed their name from MacGregor to
>Magruder. I don't have any actual evidence this happened but here is what is
>written in the book, "A History of Calvert County, Maryland", by Charles
>Francis Stein, p. 294:
>
>"......Alexander Magruder was born Alexander MacGregor. The clan MacGregor
>were suppressed by the English, and their members were forbidden to use the
>clan name MacGregor; hence some of the clan took the name of Magruder......"
This (in the book you cite, published in second edition in 1960-61) was
the conventional wisdom on the subject at the time; and the Maryland
Magruders have joined (or indeed were active in forming) the 'American
Clan Gregor Society' based on this understanding. However, more accurate
recent scholarship on the subject shows that Alexander Magruder was indeed
born 'Magruder', Magruder is simply a distinct & known Scots surname, and
there is no traceable connection between the families. See Charles G.
Kurz & Thomas G. Magruder, Jr., "The Ancestral History of Margaret
Campbell of Keithick," _Yearbook of the American Clan Gregor Society_,
62 (1978), 55-65; and especially "The McGruder Lineage in Scotland to
Magruder Family in America," _Yearbook..._ 63 (1979), 53-71.
The irony of Kurz publishing an account of the Magruders as a distinct
family in the _Yearbook of the American Clan Gregor Society_ seems to have
gone unappreciated by many descendants. Brice Clagett has researched the
Maryland Magruder immigration and the Magruder family in Scotland since
this; we look forward to the published appearance of his work.
My suspicion is that the logic that "The clan MacGregor were suppressed by
the English, and their members were forbidden to use the clan name
Phil Moody
"......Alexander Magruder was born Alexander MacGregor. The clan MacGregor
were suppressed by the English, and their members were forbidden to use the
clan name MacGregor; hence some of the clan took the name of Magruder....."
PLM: From _Periods In Highland History_ by I. F. Grant and Hugh Cheape; I
find the following: "The massacre of Glen Fruin in February 1603 put
MacGregors hopelessly in the wrong, and a series of acts of parliament
forfeited their lands, proscribed their name, and inflicted other
penalties."
I have an thesis around here on the MacGregors which I can't locate; so I
don't have the precise date when the name was "proscribed", but if I were to
hazerd a guess, I would have to say it was certainly before 1610. If this is
the case, then Alexander MacGruder was probably not born a MacGregor.
It is certainly possible his father was a MacGregor alias MacGruder, but
such an assertion needs to supported by something other than conjecture.
Given that the name was proscibed after 1603, it should not be impossible to
find Alexander's father as a MacGregor.
Best Wishes,
Phil
Renia
doesn't look Scottish. It does not appear in any of my Scottish clan and tartan
books. There are none at all in the 1881 census for Scotland, England or Wales.
And for all the early entries for Macgruder in Ancestral File and the online
IGI, there's not one from beyond the 17th century, and few, or none, from parish
registers. Which would be unusual, for at least a few oddments from published
parish registers would get through to the IGI.
I think it is more of a Germanic name. If a Gruder/Gruether went to Scotland
from Germany/Austria for some reason, it could be that the Ma(c) was adopted for
whatever reasons. I've seen this happen to English names.
Renia
Nathaniel Taylor
<ren...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>I don't think Magruder is a Scottish name at all. It doesn't sound
Scottish, and
>doesn't look Scottish. It does not appear in any of my Scottish clan and tartan
>books. There are none at all in the 1881 census for Scotland, England or Wales.
>And for all the early entries for Macgruder in Ancestral File and the online
>IGI, there's not one from beyond the 17th century, and few, or none, from
parish
>registers. Which would be unusual, for at least a few oddments from published
>parish registers would get through to the IGI.
>
>I think it is more of a Germanic name. If a Gruder/Gruether went to Scotland
>from Germany/Austria for some reason, it could be that the Ma(c) was
adopted for
>whatever reasons. I've seen this happen to English names.
A foreign origin for the name is certainly possible; there doesn't seem to
be a consensus on what the '*Gruder' element means, though Kurz & Magruder
posited a Gaelic origin in 'MacCruither', 'son of the harper' (with a
specific eponymous harper ancestor weakly asserted). But the family is
attested in the sixteenth century, and the ancestry of Alexander Magruder
(Sr.) seems clear for 2 generations, getting back to the early sixteenth
century, with holders of the same surname. This obviously invalidates the
idea that the name was invented following the early 17th-century
proscription of the MacGregor name (which I wasn't denying as a historical
occurrence, as one reader seemed to think, but simply pointing out as an
erroneous basis for the origin of the 'Magruder' family). Again, we look
forward to seeing more of the work conducted by Brice Clagett on this
family.
Nat Taylor
Nathaniel Taylor
nta...@post.harvard.edu (Nathaniel Taylor) wrote:
>In article <3BFECC22...@btinternet.com>, Renia
><ren...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>I don't think Magruder is a Scottish name at all...
>
>A foreign origin for the name is certainly possible; there doesn't seem to
>be a consensus on what the '*Gruder' element means, though Kurz & Magruder
>posited a Gaelic origin in 'MacCruither', 'son of the harper' (with a
>specific eponymous harper ancestor weakly asserted).
I should point out that the spelling 'Magruder' is only used among the US
descendants of Alexander Magruder of Maryland; in Scotland the various
spellings (McGruder, McCrowther, etc.) all suggest a Gaelic patronymic
origin. I do have a citation (originally from Brice Clagett) to an
article which I have not read--John MacGregor, "The McGrouthers of Meigor
in Glenartney," _The Genealogist_ [UK], New Series, vol. 35 (no year
cited), which apparently contains a discussion of likely origins of the
surname.
Nat Taylor
Renia
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
There are no McCrowthers either, in the 1881 census for Scotland, England and
Wales. Crowther, on the other hand, is a well-known surname. Neither does Mc
Crowther (or anything remotely similar, as with the 1881 census) appear in my
Scottish clan books.
Renia
>
>
> Nat Taylor
Nathaniel Taylor
<ren...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>There are no McCrowthers either, in the 1881 census for Scotland, England and
>Wales. Crowther, on the other hand, is a well-known surname. Neither does Mc
>Crowther (or anything remotely similar, as with the 1881 census) appear in my
>Scottish clan books.
Does a name have to be a clan (or a sept of a clan) to be a legitimate,
and natively Scots, surname?
Nat Taylor
Renia
where there is listed a family name, and its associated clan. Macrouther is an
associated family of the Macgregor and Drummond clans. (No Magruders, though!)
Under Macgregor it says John Drummond, the king's forrester was murdered after
hanging some Macgregors. The Macgregor chief took responsibility, and was
condemned by the Privy Council. In April 1603 James VI issued an edict proclaiing
the name of Macgregor 'altogidder abolisheed', meaning that those who bore the
name must renounce it or suffer death. The clan was scattered, many taking other
names, such as Murray or Grant. But the Macgregors fought for the king during the
civil war, nonetheless. It was repealed in 1651, but the proscription of the name
was reimposed when William of Orange deposed James VII. The clan's persecution
ended in 1774.
There is also a Maccruithein family associated with the Macdonald clan.
Renia
Renia
I can only quote from The Scottish Clan And Family Encyclopedia, by George Way of
Plean and Romilly Squire (Foreword by The Earl of Elgin KT Convenor, The Standing
Council of Scottish Chiefs), HarperCollins, 1998.
Q
Clanship: A Historical Perspective (essay by) by Profesor Allan MacInnes
The most distinctive feature of Scotland's history, nationally and
internationally, is probably that of clanship and the predominantly Highland
clans. Too often, however, writings on the clans give precedence to literary
romanticism over historical realism. In order to see the clans in their true
historical perspective, the examination of five key themes is essential - the
origins of the clans, the structure of clanship, clanship and disorder, the clans
and the Royal House of Stewart and the aftermath of Culloden.
UNQ
Essays in the book then go on to show how tightly intertwoven clanship was with
Scots law, clan authority and protection and social customs, certainly prior to
the 18th century.
This was all so tightly controlled, and documented, that it is a central part of
Scots history.
My interpretation of all this is that the answer to your question is
predominantly, yes, and that later (than medieval) surnames of people with Scots'
ancestors, were English inmigrants of other nationalities.
But, I have to admit, I'm no expert. A Scottish historian or genealogist would
know far more about it.
Renia
Nathaniel Taylor
<ren...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>I have looked a little more in the The Scottish Clan And Family Encyclopedia,
>where there is listed a family name, and its associated clan. Macrouther is an
>associated family of the Macgregor and Drummond clans. (No Magruders, though!)
This is the same family dealt with in the article by MacGregor in the
_Genealogist_ (I cited earlier), and is allegedly the same family as
Alexander Magruder of Maryland. His McGruder ancestors were retainers of
one of the Drummond lords in the sixteenth century (attested in various
16th-century documents cited by Kurz). So in political and legal terms
this family (always, apparently, extremely small) would have belonged to
the Drummond clan, though they had their distinct surname and were
probably not assumed to have been agnatically descended from the early
Drummonds.
Nat Taylor