Re: Breaking the line Baldwin Freville b 1350 --> John 1st Lord Montfort
WJho...@aol.com
database I came across an apparent error at stirnet.
http://www.stirnet.com/html/genie/british/mm4fz/montfortXX.htm#linklo
Here we see John de Montfort of Beaudesert who d bef 11 May 1296
with, among others, a daughter Elizabeth Montfort who married
Sir Baldwin de Freville of Tamworth b c 1318
Since Elizabeth's father died bef 11 May 1296, then Elizabeth had to be born
by 1297 at the latest.
Did Baldwin b c 1318 really marry a woman at least 21 years older than
himself?
Will Johnson
Douglas Richardson
You appear to have confused two different Baldwin de Freville's. The
Baldwin de Freville who married Elizabeth de Montfort was the son and
heir of Alexander de Freville, died 1328, of Tamworth, Staffordshire,
by his wife, Joan, daughter of Ralph de Cromwell. This Baldwin de
Freville was born about 1292 or 1298, he being aged 30 or 36 at his
father's death in 1328. He died overseas 3 October 1343.
Elizabeth de Montfort's parents were John de Montfort, 1st Lord
Montfort, of Beaudesert, Warwickshire, and his wife, Alice, daughter of
William de la Plaunche, lord of la Plaunche [see Complete Peerage, 9
(1936): 128 (sub Montfort); Genealogist n.s. 14 (1897): 104]. John and
Alice were married shortly before 28 March 1287, when King Edward I, in
an unpublished letter, ordered his lieutenant in England to deal
favorably with John de Montfort who had married a cousin of the Queen
(see Public Record Office, S.C. 1/45/46; citation courtesy of J.C.
Parsons). Alice de la Plaunche, widow of John de Montfort, was living
as late as Easter Term 1309, when William Morin of Kineton,
Warwickshire was attached to answer her "concerning a plea why with
force and arms he entered the castle of the same Alice at Beaudesert
and took and carried away her goods and chattels found there to the
value of one hundred shillings" [see M.S. Arnold Select Cases of
Trespass from the King's Court 1307-1399 1 (Selden Soc. 100) (1985):
126-127]. On the basis of similarity of arms, Mr. Parsons has
speculated that the de la Plaunche family were a cadet branch of the
Fiennes family. This appears to be a reasonable assumption, but I've
been unable to confirm the connection.
For interest's sake, I've listed below the 17th Century New World
immigrants who descend from Sir Baldwin de Freville, died 1343, and his
wife, Elizabeth de Montfort:
Dannett Abney, Nathaniel Browne, Charles Calvert, Grace Chetwode,
Jeremy Clarke, Henry Corbin, Katherine Hamby, Henry, Jane & Nicholas
Lowe, Thomas Owsley, Mary Johanna Somerset, Olive Welby.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry. net
WJho...@aol.com
royala...@msn.com writes:
<< You appear to have confused two different Baldwin de Freville's. The
Baldwin de Freville who married Elizabeth de Montfort was the son and
heir of Alexander de Freville, died 1328, of Tamworth, >>
Thanks for this confirmation. I had actually tentatively pushed her up a
generation to be this wife you mention above.
This mistake is not mine, I was quoting stirnet who has it exactly as I
stated in my first email message, although with a note that she might be the mother
not wife of the Baldwin they have attached her to.
This also helps me narrow the date ranges for Alexander Freville and Joan
Cromwell
Will
Allen John Mallory
to Elizabeth White, daughter of William White) of Providence, RI was
also an immigrant descendant of Baldwin Freville and Elizabeth de Montfort?
Allen J. Mallory
Danbury, Connecticut
amal...@comcast.net
mj...@btinternet.com
WJho...@aol.com wrote:
> Recently while forging new links between various medieval families in my
> database I came across an apparent error at stirnet.
>
> http://www.stirnet.com/html/genie/british/mm4fz/montfortXX.htm#linklo
There's apparently a further error here, in that the Baldwin who heads
the pedigree was married twice, and the Tamworth family were descended
from Alexander, second son of the first marriage, the eldest son,
Baldwin the younger, having died without issue; the marriage to Lucy de
Scalers was the elder Baldwin's second, from which the Little Shelford
family descended via their son Richard.
MA-R
al...@mindspring.com
What I have, admittedly somewhat dated is:
"The Frevilles of Tamworth Castle, Staffordshire", Genealogists'
Magazine, June 1984: 185 et seq. Patrick Montague-Smith.
1. Sir Baldwin d. 1387.
2. Sir Baldwin, b.1317;d. 1375.
3. Ida Clinton.
4. Sir Baldwin, b. 1297; d. 1343.
5. Elizabeth Montfort.
6. 1st. Lord Clinton.
8. Sir Alexander, d. 1328.
9. Joan Cromwell, d. 1339.
16. Sir Baldwin, d. ca. 1257.
17. Maud Gifford of Boyton, Wilts.
32. Sir Baldwin of Wellingham, Norfolk.
Is there evidence that this is incorrect?
Doug
mj...@btinternet.com
al...@mindspring.com schrieb:
Doug,
Others on the group are more expert on this family than I am, but from
a quick glance, that looks right to me.
Regards
MA-R
Tim Powys-Lybbe
It may be that Montague-Smith provided the evidence that Sanders was
wrong but in "English Baronies" pub 1963, p. 87, Sanders says that Lady
Maud de Ebroicis was followed by her son Baldwin de Frevill who d. 1289
who was followed by his brother and heir Alexander who d. 1328. In the
notes he said that naud had mj. William de Ebroicis who d. 1265. I
have taken this to mean that William de Ebroicis was the father of
Baldwin and Alexander but it may be that William was a second, or first,
husband of Maud and that Baldwin and Alexander had a Freville for
father. Or, of course, it may be that Sanders had got it wrong.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Douglas Richardson
I've prepared an ahnentafel for Sir Baldwin de Freville, of Tamworth,
Staffordshire, died 1387.
1. Sir Baldwin de Freville, b. c. 1351, died 1387, married Joyce
Botetourt.
2. Sir Baldwin de Freville, born 1317, died 1375.
3. Ida de Clinton, died before 1368.
4. Sir Baldwin de Freville, born about 1292 (or 1298), died 1343.
5. Elizabeth de Montfort.
6. Sir John de Clinton, 2nd Lord Clinton, born in or before 1300, died
1334.
7. Margery Corbet, living 1343.
8. Sir Alexander de Freville, born about 1359, died 1328.
9. Joan de Cromwell, d. 1339.
10. John de Montfort, 1st Lord Montfort.
11. Alice de la Plaunche, living Easter term 1309 (kinswoman of Queen
Eleanor of Castile, wife of King Edward I of England).
12. John de Clinton, 1st Lord Clinton, died 1311.
13. Ida de Oddingseles, died before 1328.
16. Baldwin de Freville, died 1257.
17. Maud Gifford, died 1297. She married (2nd) William d'Evreux.
18. Ralph de Cromwell, of Cromwell, Nottinghamshire, died 1289.
19. Mazera Marmion, died before 1271.
22. William de la Plaunche, seigneur of la Plaunche.
26. Sir William de Oddingseles, Knt., of Solihull, Warwickshire, died
1295.
27. Ela Fitz Walter, living 1302/3 (descendant of King Henry II of
England)
32. Roger de Freville, of Freville's (in Wellingham), Norfolk, living
temp. John.
34. Hugh Giffard, of Boyton, Wiltshire.
35. Sibyl de Cormeilles.
38. Philip Marmion, of Scrivelsby, Lincolnshire, died 1291.
39. Joan de Kilpeck.
76. Robert Marmion, of Tamworth, Staffordshire, died c. 1241-3.
77. Juliane de Vassy.
78. Hugh de Kilpeck, of Pulverbatch, Shropshire.
For details of Sir Baldwin de Freville's descent from King Henry II of
England, see Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004).
mj...@btinternet.com
Douglas Richardson schrieb:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> I've prepared an ahnentafel for Sir Baldwin de Freville, of Tamworth,
> Staffordshire, died 1387.
Thanks, Douglas; that's interesting and useful.
>
> 1. Sir Baldwin de Freville, b. c. 1351, died 1387, married Joyce
> Botetourt.
> 2. Sir Baldwin de Freville, born 1317, died 1375.
> 3. Ida de Clinton, died before 1368.
> 4. Sir Baldwin de Freville, born about 1292 (or 1298), died 1343.
> 5. Elizabeth de Montfort.
> 6. Sir John de Clinton, 2nd Lord Clinton, born in or before 1300, died
> 1334.
> 7. Margery Corbet, living 1343.
> 8. Sir Alexander de Freville, born about 1359, died 1328.
> 9. Joan de Cromwell, d. 1339.
> 10. John de Montfort, 1st Lord Montfort.
> 11. Alice de la Plaunche, living Easter term 1309 (kinswoman of Queen
> Eleanor of Castile, wife of King Edward I of England).
> 12. John de Clinton, 1st Lord Clinton, died 1311.
> 13. Ida de Oddingseles, died before 1328.
> 16. Baldwin de Freville, died 1257.
> 17. Maud Gifford, died 1297. She married (2nd) William d'Evreux.
I can't see in the Archives that this has been dealt with before: how
does Maud Gifford's alleged subsequent marriage and then death in 1297
(I have elsewhere seen it stated as 1289) sit with Baldwin's marriage
to Lucy de Scalers, and their son issue who inherited the Scalers lands
(Little Shelford etc)? Baldwin died circa 1257.
According to the pedigree usually stated, Maud Gifford was his first
wife, and Lucy Scalers his second. By his first marriage, he had
Baldwin (IPM 1289) who was apparently his father's eldest son, as he
inherited the ancient Freville estate of Wellingham, and Alexander, his
brother's heir in 1289 who survived until 1328 (IPM). By his second
marriage, he had Richard, who died in 1299 (VCH Cambs, Little
Shelford).
Michael
Douglas Richardson
You have the order of Baldwin de Freville's marriages reversed. He
married (1st) after 10 May 1231 Lucy de Scalers, daughter and heiress
of Richard de Scalers, by whom he had a son and heir, Richard. Lucy
was living in 1245. He married (2nd) shortly after 10 July 1253 Maud
Giffard, daughter of Hugh Giffard, of Boyton, Wiltshire, by whom he had
sons, Baldwin, Knt., and Alexander, Knt. Baldwin de Freville died
shortly before 8 Feb. 1257. His widow, Maud, married William d'Evreux,
Knt., of Holme Lacy, Herefordshire, by whom she had further issue.
William d'Evreux was slain at the Battle of Evesham 4 August 1265.
Lady Maud d'Evreux acquired a one sixth-interest in the barony of
Tarrington, Herefordshire from her Cormeilles cousin, Thomas de Solers,
who died in 1272. In 1286 Godfrey Giffard, Bishop of Worcester,
granted Maud d'Evreux and Sibyl, her daughter, an acre of land in the
field of Wyston, which after their deaths should go to the prioress and
nuns of Wyston. Maud died 20 August 1297.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry. net
mj...@btinternet.com
Douglas Richardson schrieb:
> Dear Michael ~
>
> You have the order of Baldwin de Freville's marriages reversed. He
> married (1st) after 10 May 1231 Lucy de Scalers, daughter and heiress
> of Richard de Scalers, by whom he had a son and heir, Richard. Lucy
> was living in 1245. He married (2nd) shortly after 10 July 1253 Maud
> Giffard, daughter of Hugh Giffard, of Boyton, Wiltshire, by whom he had
> sons, Baldwin, Knt., and Alexander, Knt. Baldwin de Freville died
> shortly before 8 Feb. 1257. His widow, Maud, married William d'Evreux,
> Knt., of Holme Lacy, Herefordshire, by whom she had further issue.
> William d'Evreux was slain at the Battle of Evesham 4 August 1265.
> Lady Maud d'Evreux acquired a one sixth-interest in the barony of
> Tarrington, Herefordshire from her Cormeilles cousin, Thomas de Solers,
> who died in 1272. In 1286 Godfrey Giffard, Bishop of Worcester,
> granted Maud d'Evreux and Sibyl, her daughter, an acre of land in the
> field of Wyston, which after their deaths should go to the prioress and
> nuns of Wyston. Maud died 20 August 1297.
Many thanks, Douglas. That's a significant correction to the
traditional pedigree for the Frevilles.
Regards
Michael
Douglas Richardson
You're quite welcome. I'm glad that you found the information helpful.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry. net