Possible Lineage From Evan Ragland in Virginia to Hameline Plantagenet

[marlow...@frontier.com]

I have two interconnectng lines from my Ragland grandfather, Evan Ragland, who was the immigrant to Virginia. This is what I have from the Ragland book by Charles J. Ragland. Any thoughts on it are welcome. I hope this comes through where it can be read as I have copied from my Family Tree Maker. I am still wondering who Jane Morgan is and her lineage.

Marianne Dillow

Outline Descendant Report for Hameline Plantagenet
1 Hameline Plantagenet
+ Isabel de Warren

2 Isabel Plantagenet
+ Roger Bigod b: 1150, d: 1221

.3 Hugh Bigod b: 1190, d: 1225
+ Maud Marshall b: Abt. 1192 in Pembroke, Pembrokeshire, Wales, d: 27 Mar 1248
.
4 Isabel Bigod b: 1222 in Thetford, Norfolk, England, d: 1239 in Thetford, Norfolk, England,
England
.+ John Fitz Geoffrey b: 1215 in Shere, Surrey, England, m: 1230 in Shere, Surrey, England, d:
23 Nov 1258 in Farmbridge, Essex, England

.5 Isabel Fitzgeoffrey b: 1233 in Shere, Surrey, England, d: 16 Apr 1301 in Shap Abbey,
Westmoreland, England
+ Robert Vipont b: 1222 in Brougham Castle, Westmorland, England, m: 1253 in Essex,
England, d: 1265 in Brougham Castle, Westmorland, England, England

.6 Isabel De Vipont b: 1254 in Ricester, Oxfordshire, England, d: 1291 in Shap Abbey,
Westmorland, England
+ Roger De Clifford b: 1243 in Clifford Castle, Clifford, Herefordshire, England, m: 1269 in
Clifford Castle, Clifford, Herefordshire, England, d: 06 Nov 1282 in VP, Menai Strait,
Anglesey, Wales
+ John Fitzgeoffrey b: 1215 in Shere, Surrey, England, d: 23 Nov 1238 in Shere, Surrey,
England

.5 Maud Fitzjohn b: 1237 in Shere, Surrey, England, d: 16 Apr 1301 in Grey Friars,
Worcestershire, Englan
+ William De Beauchamp b: 1237 in Elmley Castle, Worcestershire, England, d: 05 Jun 1298
in Elmley, Worcestershire, Engla

.6 Sarah De Beauchamp b: 1255 in Elmley Castle, Worcestershire, England, d: 1306 in
Elmley Castle, Elmley, Worcestershire, England
+ Richard Talbot b: 1250 in Hereford, England, m: 07 Jan 1269 in Worcestershire,
England, d: 03 Sep 1306 in Eccleswall, Gloucestershire, England

.7 Gwenllian Talbot b: 1282 in Richard, Castle, Hereford, England, d: 1318
+ Payne De Turberville b: 1282 in Coyty, Glamorganshire, Wales, d: 1318 in Coity
Castle, Glamorgan, Wales

.8 Sarah De Tuberville b: England, d: 1275 in England
+ William De Gamage b: 1306 in Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England, d: 1325 in
Rogiet, Gloucester, England

.9 Gilbert De Gamage b: 1350 in Rogaid, Glamorganshire, Wales, d: 1382 in Gwent,
England
+ Lettice Seymour b: 1372 in Hatch, Somersetshire, England, d: 1372 in England

10 William Gamage b: 1386 in Rogaid, Glamorganshire, Wales, d: 1419 in Coety
Castle, Wale
+ Mary Rodburg b: 1386 in Rogiad, Coety, Glamorganshire, Wales, m: 1420, d:
Gwent

.11 Thomas Gamage b: 1420 in Coity Castle, Coity, Glamorganshire, Wales, d:
Wales
+ Matilda Dennis b: 1388 in Coyty, Glams, Wales, d: 1434 in Coyty Glams,
Wales

12 John Gamage b: 1427 in Coity, Bridgend, Glamorganshire, Wales
+ Margaret Verch Morgan b: 1427 in Radyr, Cardiff, Glamorganshire, Wales

.13 Margaret Gamage b: 1470
+ William Mathew b: 1470 in Glamorgan, d: Castell Y Mynach, Glamorgan

14 Alice Mathew b: 1510 in Castelle Y Mynach, Glamorgan, Wales
+ Robert Ragland b: 1510 in Glamorgan, Wales, m: England, d: 1565 in
Llys Y Fronydd, Lysworney, Glamorgan, Wales

15 Thomas Ragland b: 1530 in Llys Y Fronydd, Lysworney, Glamorgan,
Wales, d: 1565 in Llys Y Fronydd, Lysworney, Glamorgan, Wales
+ Mary Carne b: 1520 in Nash, Glamorgan, Wales, m: 1544 in Llys Y
Fronydd, Glamorgan, Wales, d: 1610 in Glamorgan, Wales

16 John Lewis Ragland b: 1545 in Llys Y Fronydd, Glamorganshire,
Wales, d: 1605 in St Decumans, Somerset, England
+ Alice Kingsonn b: 1543 in St Decumans, Somerset, England, m:
1564 in St Decumans, Somerset, England, d: 1640 in St Decumans,
Somerset, Wales, England

.17 Thomas Ragland b: 1575 in St Decumans, Somerset, England, d:
Abt. 1640 in Stogumber, Somerset, England
+ Marie Ingram b: 1605 in Stogumber, Somerset, England, m: 1626
in Stogumber, Somerset, England, d: Somerset, Wales

18 Thomas Ragland b: 1627 in Somerset, Cornwall, England, d: Abt.
1684 in Somerset, Cornwall, England
+ Jane Morgan b: 1628 in Barry, South Wales, m: 1654 in
Somerset,Cornwall, England, d: 1728 in St Decumans, Somerset,
Wales

19 Evan Ragland b: 1656 in St Decumans, Somerset, England, d:
30 May 1717 in St Peters, New Kent, VA, USA
.........................................................
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
.8 Catherine De Turbervillee

.7 Gwenllian Talbot b: 1270 in Richards Castle, Herefordshire, England, d: 1346 in Richards
Castle, Hertfordshire, England
+ Payne De Turberville b: 1282 in Coyty, Glamorganshire, Wales, m: 1287 in Richards
Castle, Herefordshire, England, d: 1318 in Coity Castle, Glamorgan, Wale

.8 Catherine Turberville b: Coity, Bridgend, Glamorganshire, Wales
.+ Sir William Berkerolles

.9 Wenllian Berkerolles b: 1377 in St Donats, Glamorganshire, Wales, d: 1407 in St
Donants, West Glamorgan, Wales
+ Edward Stradling b: 1375 in St Donats, Ogmore, Glamorganshire, Wales, m: 1399
in St Donats, Ogmore, Glamorgan, Wales, d: 1412 in St Donats, Glamorgan, Wales,
England

10 Sir William Stradling b: 1398 in St Donats, Ogmore, Glamorganshire, Wales, d:
1453 in St Donats, Glamorgan, Wales, England
+ Isabel St. Barre b: 1377 in St Donats, Glamorganshire, Wales, d: 1407 in St
Donants, West Glamorgan, Wales

11 William Stradling b: 1416 in St Donats, Glamorganshire, Wales, d: 1449

.12 Agnes Stradling b: Engla
+ William Kemeys b: 1421 in England, m: 1422, d: 1458

13 Lord William Keymeys d: Gwent
+ Elizabeth de la Berer

.14 William Kemeys b: 1445 in Newport, Monmouth, Wale
+ Elizabeth Morgan

.15 Cecile Kemeys b: 1490 in Newport, Monmouth, Wales, d: 1580 in Nash,
Glamorgan, Wales
+ Lord Howel Carne b: 1500 in Nash, Glamorgan, Wales, m: 1505 in
Nash, Glamorgan, Wales, d: 1575 in Nash Manor, Glamorgan, Wales

16 Mary Carne b: 1520 in Nash, Glamorgan, Wales, d: 1610 in
Glamorgan, Wales
+ Thomas Ragland b: 1530 in Llys Y Fronydd, Lysworney, Glamorgan,
Wales, m: 1544 in Llys Y Fronydd, Glamorgan, Wales, d: 1565 in Llys
Y Fronydd, Lysworney, Glamorgan, Wales

17 John Lewis Ragland b: 1545 in Llys Y Fronydd, Glamorganshire,
Wales, d: 1605 in St Decumans, Somerset, England
+ Alice Kingsonn b: 1543 in St Decumans, Somerset, England, m:
1564 in St Decumans, Somerset, England, d: 1640 in St Decumans,
Somerset, Wales, England

.18 Thomas Ragland b: 1575 in St Decumans, Somerset, England, d:
Abt. 1640 in Stogumber, Somerset, England
+ Marie Ingram b: 1605 in Stogumber, Somerset, England, m: 1626
in Stogumber, Somerset, England, d: Somerset, Wales

19 Thomas Ragland b: 1627 in Somerset, Cornwall, England, d:
Abt. 1684 in Somerset, Cornwall, England
+ Jane Morgan b: 1628 in Barry, South Wales, m: 1654 in
Somerset,Cornwall, England, d: 1728 in St Decumans, Somerset,
Wales

.20 Evan Ragland b: 1656 in St Decumans, Somerset, England, d:
30 May 1717 in St Peters, New Kent, VA, USA

[Wjhonson]

At one time the pages you copied were "Scattered"
Hopefully you've now found them, and will post those pages so we can see what sources he used, or didn't
You post from four years ago, which started a hundred post thread :)

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/oSuimMCBWxg/1JcYiBL5T3sJ

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message

[marlow...@frontier.com]

Will, I do not belong to that group any longer but these are different lineages. They are not the Morgan one going back to Sir William Herbert.

As you can see there were several interconnecting marriages from Evan Ragland and his parents Thomas Ragland and Jane Morgan. I deleted the Morgan line from my FTM. Charles J. Ragland's book is huge. I only am posting the ones who come directly to me.

Marianne Dillow

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wjhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
To: marlow...@frontier.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 2:15:03 PM
Subject: Re: Possible Lineage From Evan Ragland in Virginia to Hameline Plantagenet

At one time the pages you copied were "Scattered"
Hopefully you've now found them, and will post those pages so we can see what sources he used, or didn't

You post from four years ago, wh ich started a hundred post thread :)

[Wjhonson]

Still the basic underlying issue here is sources. Same as it was four years ago.
Morgan is a very common name.

[marlow...@frontier.com]

I know the Morgan name is common. I was hoping the dates and location might mean something to someone. If it doesn't that is OK.

SOME of these lines I think are also in another book entitled " The Genealogies of Glamorgan." I don't remember the author. I believe that book is at the library in Memphis.

Since the Ragalnd Book is so extensive there are many parts to it. I did not xeox the entire book and there are sources and letters in the back of the book. That book is 200 miles from me and I have no plans of going there. So, ones can accept what I have posted if they are interested or if not just ignore my postings.

Marianne Dillow

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wjhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
To: marlow...@frontier.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 2:46:50 PM
Subject: Re: Possible Lineage From Evan Ragland in Virginia to Hameline Plantagenet

Still the b asic underlying iss ue here is sources. Same as it was four years ago.

[Wjhonson]

So you're willing to do *nothing* of substance for your line :)
I just want to substantiate that, after four years, you're still willing to do nothing, whatsoever.
The book CAN be ordered through Inter Library Loan, but you Marianne are willing to do nothing at all.
Except wait for someone else to do the work.

Is that about it?

[marlow...@frontier.com]

I am not asking anyone to do my work. I cannot make the trip. If you don't want to accept what I have posted.. then don't. I made the posting in good faith. There are two volumes to the Ragland books. I have posted all I am going to.

Mariane Dillow

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wjhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
To: marlow...@frontier.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 3:14:20 PM
Subject: Re: Possible Lineage From Evan Ragland in Virginia to Hameline Plantagenet

So you're wil ling to do *nothing* of substance for your line :)
I just want to substantiate that, after four years, you're s till willing to do nothing, whatsoever.

[Wjhonson]

You don't have to make a trip.
Listen and learn.
The Book.... can... be... ordered to come to YOU through Inter Library Loan.
I'm glad you've posted "all you're going to" since you don't belong here if you're *unwilling* to do anything whatsoever of substance.

[John Higgins]

On Dec 10, 1:50 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> You don't have to make a trip.
> Listen and learn.
> The Book.... can... be... ordered to come to YOU through Inter Library Loan.
> I'm glad you've posted "all you're going to" since you don't belong here if you're *unwilling* to do anything whatsoever of substance.
>

It's comical to see Will here preaching about ordering books through
inter-library loan when it's well known that he would never do such a
thing himself, much less even set foot in a library. And yet he has
the effrontery to accuse others of "being unwilling to do anything
whatsoever of substance". The original poster has already pursued
avenues of research that the omniscient and arrogant Will Johnson
would never even consider.

But the issue with any of these lines to the Virginia immigrant Evan
Ragland remains the same as it was back in 2008. Here's my judgment
from that point, which still holds:

"All the genealogy before and after Evan Ragland MAY be at least
reasonably acceptable (or it may not be), but the identity of Evan
Ragland the immigrant as the Evan Ragland who was born in Somerset is
clearly conjectural - and probably unprovable. If Ms Dillow wants to
pursue the earlier genealogy of the Ragland/Raglan family, she's
perfectly entitled to do so - but she should recognize and admit that
the connection of the earlier lineage to her own ancestry is presently
unsupportable because of the weak link of Evan Ragland. The presumed
good faith of Charles Ragland in writing these books doesn't add
anything to the credibility of the weak link. So, stop referring to
this as "the Evan Ragland lineage" - because it isn't, at least not
that of the immigrant."

[Wjhonson]

I have ordered things through Inter Library Loan many times John.

So once again you're completely wrong, and yet I'm sure we won't see any kind of apology.
Now that I've proven you wrong, ten times out of ten maybe you'll go whack a mole or something

-----Original Message-----
From: John Higgins <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Mon, Dec 10, 2012 2:26 pm
Subject: Re: Possible Lineage From Evan Ragland in Virginia to Hameline Plantagenet

[marlow...@frontier.com]

John, that could be true but Charles J. Ragland's research and his book are all that the Ragland descendants have that I know of. I don't know of anything else.

Marianne Dillow

----- Original Message -----

[Wjhonson]

Why not start with his notes. I've given you the link, to order them.

-----Original Message-----
From: marlowest155 <marlow...@frontier.com>
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL <GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com>

[johnschm...@gmail.com]

Once upon a time, I was led to believe that Evan Ragland was the ancestor of my ancestor William Davis (d. 1791) of Pittsylvania County, Virginia. And then I was encouraged to believe that Evan Ragland had a descent from King Edward IV (that's right, not III, but IV) of England. And then there was a Turberville descent from royalty and Magna Carta barons, too. I read the European section of the Ragland genealogy from beginning to end, including the few-and-far-between footnotes. This work is poorly sourced.

The alleged ancestry of William Davis eventually went into the dustbin of genealogical fabrications, but I retained my interest in the claimed Ragland ancestry

As part of a related task at WikiTree's Magna Carta Project, I backed into the opportunity to test one of the Turberville lineages mentioned at the beginning of this thread. Here's the relevant generation:

>11 William Stradling b: 1416 in St Donats, Glamorganshire, Wales, d: 1449

>12 Agnes Stradling b: Engla
>+ William Kemeys b: 1421 in England, m: 1422, d: 1458

>13 Lord William Keymeys d: Gwent
>+ Elizabeth de la Berer

So we have a man born in 1416, and six years later this six-year-old man's daughter marries a man who was one year old. Maybe not.

What is really going on here is that the John (not William) Kemeys who married Agnes Stradling was the SON (not the father) of William Kemys who married Elizabeth de la Bere, breaking the alleged lineage from Evan Ragland. You can see the corrected lineage at wikitree: https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Kemeys-Family-Tree-17
This was, at the very lease, a serious blooper.

Finally, what evidence is there for the baptism of Evan Ragland (31 March 1656 at St Decumans, Somerset) and the marriage of his parents Thomas Ragland and Jane Morgan, also at St Decumans (per the Ragland genealogy)?

The baptism record of Evan's alleged father Thomas Ragland DOES indeed appear in Stogumber, Somerset in 1628, together with his parents' marriage there in 1626/7, per the transcriptions at https://www.freereg.org.uk/ -- verifying that generation of the Ragland lineage.

And there was a couple named Thomas and Jane Ragland, who were indeed having children at St Decumans from 1656 through 1674 -- once again per the transcriptions at https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_queries/5ac3e8ecf4040b122aa2228e -- with the first entry being a DAUGHTER "Johan" baptized 31 Mar. 1656, the same day as the alleged baptism of Evan Ragland the kidnapped immigrant to Virginia.

There's no Evan mentioned at all, at least in the transcriptions. Is there an error in the transcription? Or did Charles Ragland falsify a record? Or did wishful thinking coincide with bad handwriting?