Christine of Austria (von Österreich)

[Ingolf Vogel]

Hello List,

Can anyone give me a hint as to who the parents of Christine von Österreich, died Trier 3.11.1047, married to Bruno of Luidolfinger, (died 24.4.1029, later bishop of Regensburg) was. Her daughter Agathe was married to Edward Prince of England, who died in London in 1507.

Thanks,

Ingolf

[Todd A. Farmerie]

Ingolf Vogel wrote:
>
> Hello List,
>
> Can anyone give me a hint as to who the parents of Christine von Österreich, died Trier 3.11.1047, married to Bruno of Luidolfinger, (died 24.4.1029, later bishop of Regensburg) was. Her daughter Agathe was married to Edward Prince of England, who died in London in 1507.
>

This Bruno was Bishop of Augsburg, according to ES. I know of no
evidence that he was ever married. What is your source for this
information? As to Bruno being father of Agatha, her parentage is still
under debate, but Bruno is a distant third (not even treated as worth
refuting when the latest theory was presented).

taf

[omega]

Did her daughter really died over 400 years old??

--
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Major's Line Road, Tooborac,
Victoria 3522, Australia,
om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au

Ingolf Vogel <voge...@planet-interkom.de> wrote in message
news:003e01bfd110$c25697c0$ae09b43e@oemcomputer...

> Hello List,
>
> Can anyone give me a hint as to who the parents of Christine von
Österreich, died Trier 3.11.1047, married to Bruno of Luidolfinger, (died
24.4.1029, later bishop of Regensburg) was. Her daughter Agathe was married
to Edward Prince of England, who died in London in 1507.
>
>

> Thanks,
>
> Ingolf
>

[jose_ferna...@my-deja.com]

In article <394027E5...@interfold.com>,
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote:

> Ingolf Vogel wrote:
> >
> > Hello List,
> >
> > Can anyone give me a hint as to who the parents of Christine von
Österreich, died Trier 3.11.1047, married to Bruno of Luidolfinger,
(died 24.4.1029, later bishop of Regensburg) was. Her daughter Agathe
was married to Edward Prince of England, who died in London in 1507.
> >
>

> This Bruno was Bishop of Augsburg, according to ES. I know of no
> evidence that he was ever married. What is your source for this
> information? As to Bruno being father of Agatha, her parentage is
still
> under debate, but Bruno is a distant third (not even treated as worth
> refuting when the latest theory was presented).
>
> taf
>
>

I thought that the question of the ancestry of Agatha, the wife
of "King" Edward Atheling had been a complex genealogic problem that
was resolved by Szabolcs de Vajay after the publishing of two
interesting and definite articles:
1) Vajay, Szabolcs de: "Agatha, mother of St. Margaret, Queen of
Scotland", in: Duquesne Review, a Journal of Social Sciences, volume
VII, nr. 2, Pittsburgh, 1962, and
2) Vajay, Szabolcs de: "Mathilde, reine de France inconnue -
Contribution a l'histoire politique et sociale du Royaume de France au
XIe. siecle", in: Journal des Savants, volumen CCCVII, Paris, 1971.
Basically, the success of this investigation resided in two key
documental paragraphs which had been ignored by other authors:
a) regarding Agatha "of Frisia" and her husband the
Saxon "atheling": "Eadwardus vero Agatham filiam germani imperatoris
Henrici III in matimonium accepit ..." (cf.: "Florentii Wigorniensis
Regalia prosapia Anglorum", in: Monumenta Historica Britannica, ed. H.
Petrie, vol. I (Unicus); Extending to the Normand Conquest, Londres
1848, p. 642).
b) regarding her sisters: "Ista namque Ida, nobilis femina de Suevia
nata, in villa Elsthorpe manens ... fuit filia fratis imperatoris
Henrici III filia quoque sororis Leonis pape, qui et Bruno ... Henricus
Franciae Rex vero Matilda filia germani imperatoris Henrici in
matrimonium accepit ... (cf.: Annales Stadenses auctore Alberto, in: M
G H, SS, vol. XVI, 1859, ad a 1112, p. 319).
These two documental propositions which seemed very strange, allowed
Szabolcs de Vajay to establish the following familiar picture,
perfectly clear and logical, of the three sisters:
a) Ida of Frisia, named "de Esltorf", designated as "filia fratis
imperatoris Henrici"; married to: 1st., ?, Lippold, Graf von Stade
(+1052/1053); 2nd., 1055, Dedo von Dietmarschen; 3rd., 1058, Etheler
von Dietmarschen (then, ancestress by feminine line: from the first
marriage, of the lines of the Princes of Tchernigov and of Mourom, from
the Rurikid House; and from her third marriage, of the Grafen von
Oldenburg whose extense and afortunate descendants reigned in Denmark,
Norway, Greece, Russia and, in the next generation, in Great Britain).
b) Agatha of Frisia, designated as "filia germani imperatoris
Henrici"), and wife of "king" Edward "Atheling", and
c) Matilda (aka Matilde) (+1044), designated as "neptis Henrici
imperatoris", second wife in 1034 of Henri I, King of France.
Then, the three of them were daughters of:
2. Liudolf (+1038) Markgraf v. Friesland (Margrave of Frisia) ("filius
Brunonis et Gisle imperatricis, frater germanus imperatoris Heinrici",
according to source quoted above).
3. Gertrude v. Eguisheim ("soror Leonis pape"), whose brother was
Brunon, Bischof v. Toul, then Pope St. Leon IX (+1054), both children
of Hugo IV, Graf v. Eguisheim by Edwiges v. Dachsburg.
And paternal grand-daughters of:
4. Brunon I (II) (+1010/1011) Graf v. Braunschweig and his second wife:
5. Gisela v. Schwaben (+1043), married 1st., c. 1005, to nr. 4; 2nd.,
ca. 1012 to Ernst I (+1015) Herzog v. Schwaben, from the Haus v.d.
Ostmarck, then called "von Babenberg" (with descendants who were Grafen
v. Sulzbach u. v. Kastl-Horburg); 3rd. 1017, to Kaiser Konrad II "der
Salier" (with whom she was ancestress of the Salic House who reigned in
the Holy Roman Empire and mother, inter alia, of Matilde v. Franken,
the first wife in 1033, of Henri I, King of France).

By the way, who is Christine v. Oesterreich?

Regards.

Joe.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

[Ingolf Vogel]

Hi,

Thank you very much for the extensive information regading the two articles.
I'll see if I can read them at the local library.
Christine von Österreich was supposed to be the wife of Bruno of
Luidolfinger, according to one author. But since no other author ever
mentions her, she probably never existed, and is just a mistake in that
book.

Regards,

Ingolf Vogel

[Todd A. Farmerie]

jose_ferna...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> I thought that the question of the ancestry of Agatha, the wife
> of "King" Edward Atheling had been a complex genealogic problem that
> was resolved by Szabolcs de Vajay after the publishing of two
> interesting and definite articles:

Many thought the same, and this became the solution of choice for 30
years, but within the past few years, Rene Jette presented an
alternative theory that has received much ink, both in favor and opposed
(and has been discussed here numerous times - search the archives for
Agatha). Basically, he follows another chronicler in concluding that
she was daughter of the Jaroslav of Kiev.

The root of the problem is that the closest that exist to contemporary
sources present information that is contradictory, and impossible to
harmonize into a single solution. These two theories each reject the
chronicles which support the other position as being mistaken or
corrupt, and while circumstantial arguments can be made on both sides,
it has proven impossible to definitively exclude either one.

Thus, we are now in the position of the man with two watches (a man with
one watch always knows what time it is, but one with two can never be
sure that either is right).

taf

[D. Spencer Hines]

"The root of the problem is that the closest that exist to contemporary
sources present information that is contradictory, and impossible to
harmonize into a single solution."

Todd A. Farmerie ---- 17 June 2000
----------------------------

Was that meant to be an English sentence?
--

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Cave ab homine unius libri." ---- Anonymous

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[Benjamin Hertzel]

>Then, the three of them were daughters of:
>2. Liudolf (+1038) Markgraf v. Friesland (Margrave of Frisia) ("filius
>Brunonis et Gisle imperatricis, frater germanus imperatoris Heinrici",
>according to source quoted above).

Any relationship to Liudolf (Duke of Swabia), 930 - 957 and his wife, Ida?
Or to Liudolf, (Duke of Swabia), father of Gisela, the wife of Stjepan I,
King of Hungary (975 - 1038)? I don't have a relationship between these
two Liudolfs either, though it seems likely enough.

Thank you.

Benjamin

[Todd A. Farmerie]

Liudolf, Duke 930-957, was the son of Emperor Otto I, and grandson of
King Henry I of Germany. His wife Ida was daughter of Herman I, Duke of
Swabia. It has recently been suggested that he was father of Richlint
(typically called illegitimate daughter of Otto I) who was wife of
Conrad, Duke of Swabia (typically, Richlint is said to marry Kuno of
Oeningen, while Conrad is given an otherwise unknown wife Jutta), and
mother of his son Herman II, Duke of Swabia. This latter was father of
Gisela, mother of Liudolf, Margrave of Frisia.

Stephen's wife Gisela was daughter of Henry, Duke of Bavaria, and sister
of Emperor Henry II. Therefor, I don't know who is intended by this
other Liudolf you mention.

taf