Haudlo - de St. Amand
corbyguy
In the Complete Peerage under Haudlo it is mentioned that John Haudlo died
Dec. 1343 married before 16 Dec. 1330 to Isabel daughter of Aumarie de St.
Amand.
Now I have seen various pedigrees online that show Isabel to be the daughter
of John de St. Amand by his wife Margaret le Despenser. So could the
Complete Peerage be wrong in stating that Isabel was the daughter of Aumarie
de St. Amand?
Would anyone know who the real parents are for Isabel de St. Amand the wife
of John Haudlo and did this Isabel have any brothers and if so did they have
any children themselves?
I am trying to work out how the St. Amand coat of arms ended up being
quartered by the Haudlo family as these arms are shown together in a full
heraldic achievement by a descendant and I have worked out that these 2
quarterings can only have been brought in by Elizabeth de Haudlo who was a
wife of Edmund de La Pole. Elizabeth de Haudlo was a sister and co. heiress
of Edmund de Haudlo and was a daughter of Richard de Haudlo by his wife
Isabel de St. Amand.
If anyone can help me with Isabel de St. Amand I will be very grateful.
Jamie
CE Wood
op=GET&db=jweber&id=I32035): "Note: Brice Clagett, Douglas
Richardson, and others on SGM, state that CP is wrong above. Isabel
was sister of Aumauri, and daughter of John 2nd Lord de St. Amand."
CE Wood
corbyguy
"corbyguy" <corb...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:JFR3l.21208$oT4....@newsfe23.ams2...
Further to my request. I forgot to mention that the source/note attached as
given to Isabel de St. Amand's father being Aumarie de St. Amand in the
Complete Peerage is:- Kennet, Parochial Antiquities, Vol ii, p.121, quoting
Dodsworth MS.
Can anyone give any more sources to the father of Isabel as being Aumarie de
St. Amand or provide any sources that states/shows that Isabel's parents
were John de St. Amand by Margaret le Despenser???
Jamie
CE Wood
Chadlington," the thread I mentioned in my previous post.
CE Wood
On Dec 22, 2:12 pm, "corbyguy" <corby...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "corbyguy" <corby...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
Douglas Richardson
In answer to your question, as you suspected, Complete Peerage is in
error regarding the parentage of Isabel de Saint Amand, wife of Sir
Richard de Haudlo. The error probably originates from the published
Visitation of Oxfordshire where Isabel is incorrectly identified as
"da. of Sir Aymer de St. Amond." The Haudlo and Saint Amand families
are discussed in some detail in Boarstall Cartulary by Salter, which
material I recommend you read. Mr. Salter sets forth the evidence
which proves that Isabel de Saint Amand was the daughter of Sir John
de Saint Amand, Knt., by his wife, Margaret, daughter of Sir Hugh le
Despenser, Knt., Earl of Winchester. Elsewhere you can find an
abstract of the marriage contract of Isabel's parents, John and
Margaret, dated 4 Dec. 1313 in Descriptive Catalogue of Ancient Deeds
4 (1902): 525. This record is available for viewing at the following
weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=h-IrAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA2-PA525&dq=Margaret+Despenser+Amand
For interest's sake, I've copied below my current file account of
Isabel de Saint Amand and her parents, John de Saint Amand and
Margaret le Despenser. I've supplied all of my references.
I trust this answers your question.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
ROGER LE BIGOD, Earl of Norfolk, married IDA DE TONY.
HUGH LE BIGOD, Earl of Norfolk, married MAUD MARSHAL.
ISABEL LE BIGOD, married JOHN FITZ GEOFFREY, Knt., of Shere, Surrey.
MAUD FITZ JOHN, married WILLIAM DE BEAUCHAMP, Earl of Warwick.
ISABEL DE BEAUCHAMP, married HUGH LE DESPENSER, Knt., Earl of
Winchester [see DESPENSER 5].
6. MARGARET LE DESPENSER, married before 20 Feb. 1314/5 (by marriage
settlement dated 4 Dec. 1313) JOHN DE SAINT AMAND, Knt., of West
Woodhay, Berkshire, Houghton Conquest, Bedfordshire, Catton,
Derbyshire, Ipplepen, Devon, Cerney, Gloucestershire, and Gormanston,
co. Meath, Ireland, younger son of Amaury de Saint Amand, of
Millbrook, Bedfordshire, West Woodhay, Berkshire, and Gormanston, co.
Meath, Ireland. He was born about 1280/83 (aged 27 or 30 in 1310).
They had one son, Amaury, Knt. [3rd Lord Saint Amand] and one
daughter, Isabel. He was heir in 1310 to his brother, Amaury de Saint
Amand, 1st Lord Saint Amand, by which he inherited half the barony of
Cainhoe, Bedfordshire. He was summoned to Parliament from 8 Jan.
1312/3 to 10 October 1325, by writs directed Johanni de Sancto
Amando. He was summoned against the Scots in 1315 and 1323. In Feb.
1318/9 he was going overseas on service with his father-in-law, Hugh
le Despenser the elder. In 1320 he was expelled from his manor of
Houghton Conquest, Bedfordshire by Richard Fitz Richard with “a great
force of armed men.” SIR JOHN DE SAINT AMAND, 2nd Lord St. Amand,
died shortly before 25 Jan. 1329/30. His wife, Margaret, predeceased
him.
References:
Blore, Hist. & Antiqs. of Rutland 1(2) (1811): 19 (Despenser
pedigree). Brydges, Collins’ Peerage of England 6 (1812): 496–511
(sub Despenser). Lennard & Vincent, Vis. of Warwick 1619 (H.S.P. 12)
(1877): 282–285 (Spencer pedigree: “Ada [Despenser] ux. Dn’i St. Amon
2d Rad’i Dn’i Camois.”). Phillimore, Abs. of Gloucestershire IPMs 6
(Index Library 47) (1914): 15. Genealogist n.s. 35 (1919): 95–96.
C.P. 6 (1926): 400; 11 (1949): 298–299 (sub Saint Amand). Paget,
Baronage of England (1957) 478: 3. Salter, Boarstall Cartulary
(Oxford Hist. Soc. 88) (1930): 65–75, 191. Adams, Elkinton Fam. in
England & America (1945): 12–13. Stratton, Applied Genealogy (1989):
133, 135, 304, 315. Derbyshire Record Office: Wilmot-Horton of
Osmaston and Catton, Reference: D3155/J 575 (gift dated 16 July 1317
by John de Sancto Amando, Knt., lord of Catton, Derbyshire to Henry
son of William Geffrey of Catton, for homage and service and £4 which
he gave to him, of a messuage and a virgate of land in Catton: annual
rent of 7s. and suit of court at Catton) (abstract of document
available online at http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp). National
Archives, SC 8/30/1492 (petition dated 1320 from John de Saint Amand
to king and council complaining that when John de Grey and Ralph Fitz
Richard, his steward, were appointed as Guardians of the Peace in
Bedfordshire, on the Monday, on the morrow the feast of St Lawrence in
that year, Ralph Fitz Richard came with Thomas, son of Henry Spigurnel
and with a great force of armed men, and expelled the said John from
his manor of Houghton, carrying off his goods and chattels found
there; and they extracted an obligation from Robert de Shakeleston
that he would not go against their wishes, and arranged for him to
deliver the manor to John de Grey) (abstract of document available
online at http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
Berkeley Castle Muniments, Reference: BCM/A/2/19/7 (lease dated 25
July 1322 by John de Saint Amand to William Bythewatere and Alice his
wife re. the holding in South Cerney, Gloucestershire, which was of
Maud, sister and heir of Nicholas le Frenshe, also a rent of a rose a
year from 6 aacres of land which Henry le Taillur and his wife Juliana
hold for life of John in the same vill, with the reversion of the
land; for their lives, rent 6s. 8d. a year) (abstract of document
available online at http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).
7. ISABEL DE SAINT AMAND, married before 16 Dec. 1330 (by marriage
agreement dated 3 Nov. 1329) RICHARD DE HAUDLO, Knt., of Chadlington
Shippenhull, Chadlington Wahull, and Headington, Oxfordshire, son and
heir of John de Haudlo, Knt., of Boarstall, Adingrove, and Oakley,
Buckinghamshire, and Musewell (in Piddington), Oxfordshire, keeper of
the Bernewood Forest, etc. [see LOVEL 5], by his 1st wife, Joan,
daughter and heiress of John Fitz Niel, Knt. They had one son,
Edmund, Knt., and two daughters, Margaret (wife of Gilbert Chastelain
and John de Appleby) and Elizabeth. In January 1331 Richard’s father,
John de Haudlo, Knt., settled the reversion of the manors of Coln St.
Aldwyn, Hatherop, and Wike, Gloucestershire, Chadlington Shippenhull,
and Leawe, Oxfordshire, and Hadlow, Ashendon, Crundale, Ore,
Trentworth (in Crundale), and Vanne (in Crundale), Kent, Kent on
Richard and his wife, Isabel. SIR RICHARD DE HAUDLO died 14 Dec.
1342. His widow, Isabel, married (2nd) before 20 August 1346 Robert
de Hildesley, Knt., Sheriff of Gloucestershire. She died 22 October
1361.
References:
Kennett, Parochial Antiqs. of Ambrosden, Burcester 2 (1818): 121
(asserts Isabel “da. of Aumarie de St. Amand”). Dugdale, Monasticon
Anglicanum 6(3) (1830): 1598–1599. Lipscomb, Hist. & Antiqs. of
Buckingham 1 (1847): 59–61, 66. Harvey et al., Vis. of Oxford 1566,
1574, 1634 & 1574 (H.S.P. 5) (1871): 202 (wife “Isabell da. of Sir
Aymer de St.Amond”). Tresswell & Vincent, Vis. of Shropshire 1623,
1569 & 1584 1 (H.S.P. 28) (1889): 92–93 (Burnell pedigree: “Richard
Burnell [recte de Haudlo] died before his father. = [left blank].”).
Genealogist n.s. 11 (1894): 137. Cal. IPMs 8 (1913): 291–292, 488–
496. Phillimore, Abs. of Gloucestershire IPMs 6 (Index Library 47)
(1914): 15. C.P. 6 (1926): 400–401 (erroneously identifies Isabel,
wife of Richard de Haudlo as daughter of “Aumarie de St. Amand”).
Salter, Boarstall Cartulary (Oxford Hist. Soc. 88) (1930): 65–75, 117–
118, 160, 162–163, 191. Adams, Elkinton Fam. in England & America
(1945): 12–13. Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 279: 1 (error on
Isabel’s father). Stratton, Applied Genealogy (1989): 133, 135, 304,
315.
corbyguy
the manor of Chadlington," and I see that the legitimate descendants of
Aumarie de St. Amand, 3rd Lord (the now sister of Isabel) became extinct on
the death of Richard Beauchamp d.s.p. in 1508.
If the descendants of Aumarie de St. Amand, 3rd Lord became extinct in 1508
and that there are descendants alive of Aumarie's only sister Isabel who was
the wife of Richard Haudlo then would the descendants of Isabel and Richard
Haudlo from 1508 be entitled to add the quartering of St. Amand in right of
being the heir(s) of both Aumarie de St. Amand, 3rd Lord (whose issue and
descendants became extinct) and also of John de St. Amand, 2nd Lord the
father of both Aumarie de St. Amand and Isabel de St. Amand the wife of
Richard Haudlo???
This would explain how the de. St. Amand quartering came to be added by a
descendant of Richard Haudlo and Isabel de St. Amand.
Regards
Jamie
"CE Wood" <woo...@msn.com> wrote in message
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