C.P. Addition: Ida, wife of Roger Bertram, Robert de Neville, & John Fitz Marmaduke

[Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com]

Dear Newsgroup:

Complete Peerage 2 (1912): 158-162 (sub Bertram) and 9 (1936): 495-486
(sub Neville) includes well written accounts of the the life histories
of Roger Bertram (living 1272), of Mitford, Northumberland, and Robert
de Neville, Knt. (died 1282), of Raby, Durham, the first and second
husbands respectively of a certain woman named Ida, whose parentage is
not stated by Complete Peerage. Hedley's Northumberland Families
(1968): 224-229 provides good evidence which indicates that Ida was
the daughter of Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland (died c. 1269).
Ida's father, Robert de Roos, is commonly thought to have married
Christine Bertram, sister of Ida's husband, Roger Bertram. However,
Hedley shows that Christine Bertram actually married Ida's brother,
William de Roos. Thus a Roos brother and sister married a Bertram
brother and sister.

Following the death of her 2nd husband, Sir Robert de Neville, Complete
Peerage indicates that Ida de Roos married (3rd) before 8 May 1285 Sir
John Fitz Marmaduke, of Horden, Durham. Complete Peerage sub Betram
and Neville gives no death date for Ida. Rather, in both accounts,
Complete Peerage states only that Ida was living 18 May 1315.

The following charter proves that Ida (de Roos) (Bertram) (de Neville)
Fitz Marmaduke was still living as late as 17 August 1320, she having
by that time survived her third husband, Sir John Fitz Marmaduke:

"Sunday after the Assumption, 14 Edward II (17 August 1320).
Charter indented (in French) of Robert de Holande, Knt., granting to
her very dear lord, Sir Thomas Earl of Lancaster and Leicester, for
life, the manors of Hordene, Silkesworth, Carleburi and Ulneby and all
other lands which he has in the counties of Durham and Sadberg, with
the advowsons and franchises; granting also that the lands which dame
Alianore widow of Sir Richard son of John Fitz Marmaduk and Dame Ida de
Neville hold in dower of the lands which were of Sir Richard, which
after their decease ought to remain to the grantor and his heirs, shall
remain to the said eart for life; remainder to the grantor and his
heirs. Witnesses, Sir William Touchet, Sir Adam de Hudleston, Sir
John de Beek, Sir Odard Heroun, Sir Robert de Byncestre, Sir Gascelin
Deyvill, Sir Begon Bayhouse. Pountfret. XXX, 136v." END OF QUOTE.
[Reference: Oliver, Northumberland & Durham Deeds (Newcastle-upon-Tyne
Recs. Comm. 7) (1929): 287].

Ida de Roos has no known descendants. However, there are many New
World immigrants who descend from her 2nd and 3rd husbands, Robert de
Neville and John Fitz Marmaduke, by their previous marriages to other
women. Further particulars of all of these families can be found in my
forthcoming book, Magna Carta Ancestry.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net

[Randy Jones]

Did Roger Bertram also have a first wife Joan (____) by whom he had a daughter Ada (b.c.1245) who had present day descendents?

-- Randy Jones

Website: www.royalancestry.net

---------------------------------
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[roger_...@ksg04.harvard.edu]

Dear Randy,

My information would appear to refer to an earlier Roger Bertram, but I
have a Sir Roger Bertram, lord of Mitford, Northumberland, d. 1242,
with daughters Ada and Isabel by an unknown wife. Ada married a Sir
Simon de Vere of Coxhill, Lincolnshire. Isabel married a Sir Philip
d'Arcy. Philip died shortly before 28 may 1264. My information comes
from two books, both written by Carl Boyer III as follows: Medieval
English Ancestors of Robert Abell, 75; Medieval English Ancestors of
Certain Americans, 27, 250.

Hope this is of some use,

Roger

[Brendan Wilson]

A Genealogical & Heraldic History of Commoners of GB & Ireland
By John Burke 1836

Page 10 Vol 2

Robert de Neville

.......In 1266 we find him governor of Bamborough although in the
interim he had joined the standard of the Barons. He m. Ida daughter
of Roger de Bertram, Lord of Mitford, and had a son, (Robert who
wedded Mary, elder daughter and co heir of Ralph Fitz Ranulph, Lord of
Middleham)
He died 1282 and was s, by his grandson Ranulph de Neville

Hope this helps

Brendan Wilson
NZ

On 12 Apr 2005 03:57:52 -0700, "Douglas Richardson

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

In message of 16 Apr, Brendan Wilson <wils...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

> A Genealogical & Heraldic History of Commoners of GB & Ireland
> By John Burke 1836
>
> Page 10 Vol 2
>
> Robert de Neville
>
> .......In 1266 we find him governor of Bamborough although in the
> interim he had joined the standard of the Barons. He m. Ida daughter
> of Roger de Bertram, Lord of Mitford, and had a son, (Robert who
> wedded Mary, elder daughter and co heir of Ralph Fitz Ranulph, Lord of
> Middleham)

Unfortunately this account in Burke's Commoners was almst certainly not
researched by Burke. The later research in Complete Peerage, Vol IX,
pp. 495-6 gives what is now regarded as the correct details of Robert's
wives. The mother of his son is unknown and his second wife Ida was
previously the wife of Roger Bertram.

> He died 1282 and was s, by his grandson Ranulph de Neville

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org