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Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
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Matthew Connolly
Oct 26, 2012, 3:57:49 AM10/26/12
to
In a discussion of the Ferrers of Tamworth line a few years ago, we noted that all the chronology points to Maud Stanley, wife of Sir John Ferrers, being daughter of the elder Sir John Stanley of Elford (d.1476), rather than his son John (d.1508), although the latter affiliation has appeared in various pedigrees over the centuries. It was harder to be definite about whether she was by Sir John's first or second wife (of three).
While looking through my notes for the Anne Vernon thread I came across the following, which had been lurking there unremarked for many years:
Grant from John Vernon, esq., son of Richard Vernon, knt.,
to William Hastynges, knt., Lord of Hastynges, John Ferrers, knt.,
Nicholas Mongombery, Humphrey Stanley, Edmund Vernon, esquires,
Nicholas Agard, and William Vernon, the grantor's son, and the heirs
of the body of the last-named William Vernon, of all his lands
in Trusley, with remainder, on the death of the said William without
issue, to the said John Ferrers and the heirs of his body and that of
Matilda his wife. Dat. Trusley, 12 Apr., 20 Edw. IV. [1480].
(Jeayes, Derbyshire Charters (1906), no.2398 p.304)
Apart from Ferrers and his maternal uncle Lord Hastings, all the others named are close Vernon connections - Humphrey Stanley's mother was Elizabeth Vernon, while from Rosie Bevan's posts on the Montgomerys in 2002 we now know that Nicholas Montgomery's mother was Isabel Vernon, with Nicholas Agard being Isabel's second husband. The lands in Trusley had been given to John Vernon by his father Sir Richard by a grant of 1447, charter no.2394 on the same page.
In light of this, it looks pretty certain that Maud was a daughter of Sir John Stanley's second wife Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Richard Vernon (1390-1451); making her a full sister to Humphrey named above.
While looking through my notes for the Anne Vernon thread I came across the following, which had been lurking there unremarked for many years:
Grant from John Vernon, esq., son of Richard Vernon, knt.,
to William Hastynges, knt., Lord of Hastynges, John Ferrers, knt.,
Nicholas Mongombery, Humphrey Stanley, Edmund Vernon, esquires,
Nicholas Agard, and William Vernon, the grantor's son, and the heirs
of the body of the last-named William Vernon, of all his lands
in Trusley, with remainder, on the death of the said William without
issue, to the said John Ferrers and the heirs of his body and that of
Matilda his wife. Dat. Trusley, 12 Apr., 20 Edw. IV. [1480].
(Jeayes, Derbyshire Charters (1906), no.2398 p.304)
Apart from Ferrers and his maternal uncle Lord Hastings, all the others named are close Vernon connections - Humphrey Stanley's mother was Elizabeth Vernon, while from Rosie Bevan's posts on the Montgomerys in 2002 we now know that Nicholas Montgomery's mother was Isabel Vernon, with Nicholas Agard being Isabel's second husband. The lands in Trusley had been given to John Vernon by his father Sir Richard by a grant of 1447, charter no.2394 on the same page.
In light of this, it looks pretty certain that Maud was a daughter of Sir John Stanley's second wife Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Richard Vernon (1390-1451); making her a full sister to Humphrey named above.
Douglas Richardson
Oct 26, 2012, 9:13:28 PM10/26/12
to
On Oct 26, 1:57 am, Matthew Connolly <mvernonconno...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
<In light of this, it looks pretty certain that Maud was a daughter of
Sir John Stanley's second wife Elizabeth, daughter of <Sir Richard
Vernon (1390-1451); making her a full sister to Humphrey named above.
Matthew ~
This information might be helpful to your quest:
Source: Shawcross, Arms of the Family: The Significance of John
Milton’s Relatives & Associates (2004): 53 & 248:
In 1515 John Agard, of Foston and Sudbury, endowed a chantry for souls
at the church of Scropton. Masses were to be said for the souls of
the founder, his wife Joan, and several other individuals, including
John Stanley, Lady Elizabeth his wife and their children, and Sir John
Ferrers and his wife Matilda [i.e., Maud].
There were two successive John Stanley's, of Elford, Staffordshire,
who had a wife named Elizabeth:
John Stanley, Knt. (died 1476), married (2nd) before 16 Feb. 1451/2
Elizabeth Vernon, widow of John Vampage, Esq. (died 1446), of
Pershore, Worcestershire.
John Stanley, Esq. (died 1508), married before 1470 Elizabeth _____.
The first couple would seem to be the Stanley man and wife included in
the chantry list of souls, as that John Stanley was a knight and, as
such, it would be correct to address his wife as Lady Elizabeth. It
is this couple that you have suggested are the parents of Maud
Stanley, wife of Sir John Ferrers, whose names follow on the chantry
list.
My file notes presently show that Sir John Stanley and his wife,
Elizabeth Vernon, had two sons, Thomas and Humphrey, Knt., and three
daughters, Alice (wife of John Melton, Knt.), Katherine, and Isabel
(wife of Hugh Peshale, Knt.).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
wrote:
<In light of this, it looks pretty certain that Maud was a daughter of
Sir John Stanley's second wife Elizabeth, daughter of <Sir Richard
Vernon (1390-1451); making her a full sister to Humphrey named above.
This information might be helpful to your quest:
Source: Shawcross, Arms of the Family: The Significance of John
Milton’s Relatives & Associates (2004): 53 & 248:
In 1515 John Agard, of Foston and Sudbury, endowed a chantry for souls
at the church of Scropton. Masses were to be said for the souls of
the founder, his wife Joan, and several other individuals, including
John Stanley, Lady Elizabeth his wife and their children, and Sir John
Ferrers and his wife Matilda [i.e., Maud].
There were two successive John Stanley's, of Elford, Staffordshire,
who had a wife named Elizabeth:
John Stanley, Knt. (died 1476), married (2nd) before 16 Feb. 1451/2
Elizabeth Vernon, widow of John Vampage, Esq. (died 1446), of
Pershore, Worcestershire.
John Stanley, Esq. (died 1508), married before 1470 Elizabeth _____.
The first couple would seem to be the Stanley man and wife included in
the chantry list of souls, as that John Stanley was a knight and, as
such, it would be correct to address his wife as Lady Elizabeth. It
is this couple that you have suggested are the parents of Maud
Stanley, wife of Sir John Ferrers, whose names follow on the chantry
list.
My file notes presently show that Sir John Stanley and his wife,
Elizabeth Vernon, had two sons, Thomas and Humphrey, Knt., and three
daughters, Alice (wife of John Melton, Knt.), Katherine, and Isabel
(wife of Hugh Peshale, Knt.).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Brad Verity
Oct 26, 2012, 9:52:34 PM10/26/12
to
On Oct 26, 12:57 am, Matthew Connolly <mvernonconno...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
> Grant from John Vernon, esq., son of Richard Vernon, knt.,
> to William Hastynges, knt., Lord of Hastynges, John Ferrers, knt.,
> Nicholas Mongombery, Humphrey Stanley, Edmund Vernon, esquires,
> Nicholas Agard, and William Vernon, the grantor's son, and the heirs
> of the body of the last-named William Vernon, of all his lands
> in Trusley, with remainder, on the death of the said William without
> issue, to the said John Ferrers and the heirs of his body and that of
> Matilda his wife. Dat. Trusley, 12 Apr., 20 Edw. IV. [1480].
> (Jeayes, Derbyshire Charters (1906), no.2398 p.304)
1515) in my database as daughter of the elder Sir John Stanley of
Elford (1423-1476) & his 1st wife Cecily Arderne. The reason for this
is I have Maud's son Sir John Ferrers of Tamworth (d. 1512) as born in
1464, going by his bio in Wedgwood's HOP (p. 319):
“FERRERS, Sir John (c.1463-1513); of Tamworth. M.P. Stafford boro'
1495. S. of Sir John Ferrers M.P. (1438-84) by Maud (Stanley); m. (1)
by 1488 Maud, and (2) Dorothy da. of William Harpur of Rushall,
Staffs. ('Staffs. Colls.' 1917, pp. 282-3). He warranted a conveyance
of land in Heref., 1495 (Shrewsbury (Talbot) Colln. (7. 8).); kntd. at
Blackheath, 17 June 1497; sheriff, Staffs., 1499-1500; J.P. Staffs.
and Warw. 1508 till death; subsidy comn. 1504 ('Rot. Parl.' vi. 540);
at the funeral of Henry VII; pardoned 1509 ('L. & P. Hen. VIII', i.
438. (2 m.4).--"of Tamworth and of London"). D. 1512. Will, dat. 6
Oct. 1508, pr. 13 May 1513 (Exors.:--his wife and Sir Walter Griffith
of Wichnor (P.C.C.).)."
But Wedgwood doesn't cite a source for that birthdate (perhaps it was
an IPM for Sir Thomas Ferrers of Tamworth (died 1498)?), so it's
possible that Sir John was born later, and so Maud may have been born
later than 1444/45.
I currently have 5 children for Maud Stanley Ferrers:
1) Sir John Ferrers of Tamworth Castle (born c.1464; died 16 July
1512), married Dorothy, daughter of William Harpur of Rushall &
Margaret Cocks, and had at least one son (Humphrey) & one daughter
(Mary).
2) Jane Ferrers, married Sir Walter Griffith of Burton Agnes (born 7
June 1473; died 20 October 1531), son of Sir Walter Griffith of Burton
Agnes & Agnes Constable, and had at least one son & heir (George, who
was born by 1503).
3) Katherine Ferrers (died 1538), married 1st, Thomas Cotton of
Hamstall Ridware (needs further research); married 2nd, by 1509, Sir
Anthony Babington of Dethick (born by 1476; died 23 August 1536), son
of Thomas Babington of Dethick & Edith Fitzherbert, and had five sons
& three daughters.
4) Elizabeth Ferrers (born about 1482), married 1490, Sir William
Chetwynd of Ingestre Hall (born about 1478; died 10 April 1546), son
of William Chetwynd of Ingestre Hall & Alice Egerton, and had at least
one son & heir (Thomas, who was born in 1509).
5) Helen Ferrers (died 1508) married William Turville of Aston
Flamville (born about 1483; died 1549), son of John Turville of Aston
Flamville & Katherine Staunton, and had issue.
It is interesting to note that none of the above six spouses of Maud's
children are descended from Edward I, and the Ferrers of Tamworth
marriage is the first for each of their families (save the Griffiths
of Burton Agnes) to the Edward I bloodline, making Maud's husband John
Ferrers a true gateway ancestor for an Edward I descent.
I have Maud's father Sir John Stanley of Elford & his 1st wife Cecily
Arderne with 2 additional children, the son & heir, John Stanley of
Elford (born 1447; died 22 November 1508), and a daughter, Anne
Stanley, wife of Sir Roger Cheney.
But the Ferrers of Tamworth & Stanley of Elford lines are still
skeletal in my database, & may be either incorrect or incomplete, or
both.
Thanks & Cheers, -----Brad
wrote:
> Grant from John Vernon, esq., son of Richard Vernon, knt.,
> to William Hastynges, knt., Lord of Hastynges, John Ferrers, knt.,
> Nicholas Mongombery, Humphrey Stanley, Edmund Vernon, esquires,
> Nicholas Agard, and William Vernon, the grantor's son, and the heirs
> of the body of the last-named William Vernon, of all his lands
> in Trusley, with remainder, on the death of the said William without
> issue, to the said John Ferrers and the heirs of his body and that of
> Matilda his wife. Dat. Trusley, 12 Apr., 20 Edw. IV. [1480].
> (Jeayes, Derbyshire Charters (1906), no.2398 p.304)
> In light of this, it looks pretty certain that Maud was a daughter of Sir John Stanley's second wife Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Richard Vernon (1390-1451); making her a full sister to Humphrey named above.
Thank you for this, Matthew. I currently have Maud Stanley (died
1515) in my database as daughter of the elder Sir John Stanley of
Elford (1423-1476) & his 1st wife Cecily Arderne. The reason for this
is I have Maud's son Sir John Ferrers of Tamworth (d. 1512) as born in
1464, going by his bio in Wedgwood's HOP (p. 319):
“FERRERS, Sir John (c.1463-1513); of Tamworth. M.P. Stafford boro'
1495. S. of Sir John Ferrers M.P. (1438-84) by Maud (Stanley); m. (1)
by 1488 Maud, and (2) Dorothy da. of William Harpur of Rushall,
Staffs. ('Staffs. Colls.' 1917, pp. 282-3). He warranted a conveyance
of land in Heref., 1495 (Shrewsbury (Talbot) Colln. (7. 8).); kntd. at
Blackheath, 17 June 1497; sheriff, Staffs., 1499-1500; J.P. Staffs.
and Warw. 1508 till death; subsidy comn. 1504 ('Rot. Parl.' vi. 540);
at the funeral of Henry VII; pardoned 1509 ('L. & P. Hen. VIII', i.
438. (2 m.4).--"of Tamworth and of London"). D. 1512. Will, dat. 6
Oct. 1508, pr. 13 May 1513 (Exors.:--his wife and Sir Walter Griffith
of Wichnor (P.C.C.).)."
But Wedgwood doesn't cite a source for that birthdate (perhaps it was
an IPM for Sir Thomas Ferrers of Tamworth (died 1498)?), so it's
possible that Sir John was born later, and so Maud may have been born
later than 1444/45.
I currently have 5 children for Maud Stanley Ferrers:
1) Sir John Ferrers of Tamworth Castle (born c.1464; died 16 July
1512), married Dorothy, daughter of William Harpur of Rushall &
Margaret Cocks, and had at least one son (Humphrey) & one daughter
(Mary).
2) Jane Ferrers, married Sir Walter Griffith of Burton Agnes (born 7
June 1473; died 20 October 1531), son of Sir Walter Griffith of Burton
Agnes & Agnes Constable, and had at least one son & heir (George, who
was born by 1503).
3) Katherine Ferrers (died 1538), married 1st, Thomas Cotton of
Hamstall Ridware (needs further research); married 2nd, by 1509, Sir
Anthony Babington of Dethick (born by 1476; died 23 August 1536), son
of Thomas Babington of Dethick & Edith Fitzherbert, and had five sons
& three daughters.
4) Elizabeth Ferrers (born about 1482), married 1490, Sir William
Chetwynd of Ingestre Hall (born about 1478; died 10 April 1546), son
of William Chetwynd of Ingestre Hall & Alice Egerton, and had at least
one son & heir (Thomas, who was born in 1509).
5) Helen Ferrers (died 1508) married William Turville of Aston
Flamville (born about 1483; died 1549), son of John Turville of Aston
Flamville & Katherine Staunton, and had issue.
It is interesting to note that none of the above six spouses of Maud's
children are descended from Edward I, and the Ferrers of Tamworth
marriage is the first for each of their families (save the Griffiths
of Burton Agnes) to the Edward I bloodline, making Maud's husband John
Ferrers a true gateway ancestor for an Edward I descent.
I have Maud's father Sir John Stanley of Elford & his 1st wife Cecily
Arderne with 2 additional children, the son & heir, John Stanley of
Elford (born 1447; died 22 November 1508), and a daughter, Anne
Stanley, wife of Sir Roger Cheney.
But the Ferrers of Tamworth & Stanley of Elford lines are still
skeletal in my database, & may be either incorrect or incomplete, or
both.
Thanks & Cheers, -----Brad
Douglas Richardson
Oct 26, 2012, 10:11:20 PM10/26/12
to
On Oct 26, 7:13 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> This information might be helpful to your quest:
>
> Source: Shawcross, Arms of the Family: The Significance of John
> Milton’s Relatives & Associates (2004): 53 & 248:
>
> In 1515 John Agard, of Foston and Sudbury, endowed a chantry for souls
> at the church of Scropton. Masses were to be said for the souls of
> the founder, his wife Joan, and several other individuals, including
> John Stanley, Lady Elizabeth his wife and their children, and Sir John
> Ferrers and his wife Matilda [i.e., Maud].
Dear Matthew ~
> This information might be helpful to your quest:
>
> Source: Shawcross, Arms of the Family: The Significance of John
> Milton’s Relatives & Associates (2004): 53 & 248:
>
> In 1515 John Agard, of Foston and Sudbury, endowed a chantry for souls
> at the church of Scropton. Masses were to be said for the souls of
> the founder, his wife Joan, and several other individuals, including
> John Stanley, Lady Elizabeth his wife and their children, and Sir John
> Ferrers and his wife Matilda [i.e., Maud].
As a follow up to my previous post, I find that Palmer, History and
Antiquities of the Collegiate Church of Tamworth (1871): 89 indicates
that Maud Stanley, widow of Sir John Ferrers, of Tamworth"married
again to John Agard, Esq., of Tutbury and was still alive with him in
1506 ..."
If so, then John Stanley and Lady Elizabeth his wife on the 1515
chantry list would appear to have been the parents of John Agard's
wife, Maud Stanley, and that would explain their inclusion in the
chantry list. This also give you support for the placement of Maud
(Stanley) (Ferrers) as the daughter of Sir John Stanley and his 2nd
wife, Elizabeth Vernon.
I trust this information is helpful to you.
Douglas Richardson
Oct 26, 2012, 10:23:48 PM10/26/12
to
Matthew ~
There is additional material on the chantry of John Agard published in
the following source:
Cox, Notes on the Churches of Derbyshire 3 (1877): 263–264.
This material may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=yx5NAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA263
There is additional material on the chantry of John Agard published in
the following source:
Cox, Notes on the Churches of Derbyshire 3 (1877): 263–264.
This material may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=yx5NAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA263
John Higgins
Oct 27, 2012, 12:23:03 AM10/27/12
to
Brad; Here's something to jog your memory - from a post you made 22
Feb 2006:
"It turns out Wedgwood did misread "24" as "34". Per the Warwickshire
IPM of Sir Thomas Ferrers II of Tamworth, taken 12 October 1498, "John
Ferrers, knight, aged 24 and more, is his cousin and next heir, viz.
son of John Ferrers, knight, his son."
"So John Ferrers II of Tamworth was born about 1473/4, which fits in
much better chronologically with his sisters and their husbands."
END QUOTE
This makes it much easier for Maud Stanley, the mother of Sir John
Ferrers II (d. 1512), to be the daughter of the 2nd marriage of the
elder John Stanley to Elizabeth Vernon.
John Higgins
Oct 27, 2012, 12:43:26 AM10/27/12
to
If Maud Stanley was indeed married 1st to John Ferrers I and 2nd to
John Agard (as seems probable based on the comments in this thread),
this would rule out the possibility, suggested by Alex Stewart in a
2004 post, that this John Ferrers m. (1) Maud Stanley and (2) Margaret
Hungerford of Down Ampney (from which marriage a daughter Catherine m.
Sir Anthony Babington of Dethick).
Brad, you mentioned in 2006 that Alex Stewart was researching the
Margaret Hungerford/John Ferrers marriage. Do you know if there's
been any further information on this? I wonder (as I did in 2006!) if
Margaret Hungerford was instead a 1st wife of John Ferrers the son of
John ferrers and Maud Stanley.
Wjhonson
Oct 27, 2012, 1:24:26 AM10/27/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Catherine who married first Thomas Cotton
married second Anthony Babington of Dethick
She died in 1537
In the will of Walter Griffith, Anthony Babington is called "brother".
In today's language we would say he was the brother of Walter's sister-in-law
Anthony left a will dated 18 feb 1534 and proved 2 Sep 1536
-------------------------------
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with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message
married second Anthony Babington of Dethick
She died in 1537
In the will of Walter Griffith, Anthony Babington is called "brother".
In today's language we would say he was the brother of Walter's sister-in-law
Anthony left a will dated 18 feb 1534 and proved 2 Sep 1536
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message
Brad Verity
Oct 27, 2012, 3:00:17 AM10/27/12
to
> Brad; Here's something to jog your memory - from a post you made 22
> Feb 2006:
>
> "It turns out Wedgwood did misread "24" as "34". Per the Warwickshire
> IPM of Sir Thomas Ferrers II of Tamworth, taken 12 October 1498, "John
> Ferrers, knight, aged 24 and more, is his cousin and next heir, viz.
> son of John Ferrers, knight, his son."
>
> "So John Ferrers II of Tamworth was born about 1473/4, which fits in
> much better chronologically with his sisters and their husbands."
> END QUOTE
>
> This makes it much easier for Maud Stanley, the mother of Sir John
> Ferrers II (d. 1512), to be the daughter of the 2nd marriage of the
> elder John Stanley to Elizabeth Vernon.
Thank you, John. And I'm so grateful for this newsgroup & its
> Feb 2006:
>
> "It turns out Wedgwood did misread "24" as "34". Per the Warwickshire
> IPM of Sir Thomas Ferrers II of Tamworth, taken 12 October 1498, "John
> Ferrers, knight, aged 24 and more, is his cousin and next heir, viz.
> son of John Ferrers, knight, his son."
>
> "So John Ferrers II of Tamworth was born about 1473/4, which fits in
> much better chronologically with his sisters and their husbands."
> END QUOTE
>
> This makes it much easier for Maud Stanley, the mother of Sir John
> Ferrers II (d. 1512), to be the daughter of the 2nd marriage of the
> elder John Stanley to Elizabeth Vernon.
archives! I lost a lot when my old computer crashed (I think it was
later in 2006), and I didn't have a database program back then. I
also had to get rid of a lot of hard copy files over the years. The
Ferrers of Tamworth family I remember, but I didn't recall that I had
looked at the younger John's birthdate in detail.
Yes, the ten years shaved off makes a huge difference, and now the
chronology complements nicely the document evidence that makes Maud a
daughter from Sir John Stanley's second marriage.
Thanks & Cheers, -----Brad
Brad Verity
Oct 27, 2012, 3:17:11 AM10/27/12
to
On Oct 26, 9:43 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If Maud Stanley was indeed married 1st to John Ferrers I and 2nd to
> John Agard (as seems probable based on the comments in this thread),
> this would rule out the possibility, suggested by Alex Stewart in a
> 2004 post, that this John Ferrers m. (1) Maud Stanley and (2) Margaret
> Hungerford of Down Ampney (from which marriage a daughter Catherine m.
> Sir Anthony Babington of Dethick).
Looking back over the 2006 posts, I think it's definite that Maud
> If Maud Stanley was indeed married 1st to John Ferrers I and 2nd to
> John Agard (as seems probable based on the comments in this thread),
> this would rule out the possibility, suggested by Alex Stewart in a
> 2004 post, that this John Ferrers m. (1) Maud Stanley and (2) Margaret
> Hungerford of Down Ampney (from which marriage a daughter Catherine m.
> Sir Anthony Babington of Dethick).
Stanley survived Sir John Ferrers and married second, John Agard:
"C 142/30/26 Ferrers, alias Agard, Maud: Essex 7 Hen. VIII."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/b7d91c8ad4ca5075?hl=en
> Brad, you mentioned in 2006 that Alex Stewart was researching the
> Margaret Hungerford/John Ferrers marriage. Do you know if there's
> been any further information on this?
> I wonder (as I did in 2006!) if
> Margaret Hungerford was instead a 1st wife of John Ferrers the son of
> John ferrers and Maud Stanley.
was born in 1474, Katherine, if his daughter by an earlier wife than
Dorothy Harper, could've been born about 1494, possibly a couple years
earlier. She was married to her second husband Anthony Babington by
1509 (per his bio in HOP), which would just fit chronologically. But
Babington was her second husband. So a lot depends on further details
about her first marriage to Thomas Cotton: was she a child bride, or a
grown woman? Unfortunately, I don't yet have any details on Thomas
Cotton.
Cheers, ----Brad
Wjhonson
Oct 27, 2012, 10:52:33 AM10/27/12
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Thomas only outlived his father a short while and perhaps never even lived at the Manor because his mother Joan outlived him by several years.
Although he had issue, they all died as infants, so his four sisters inherited as heirs in general, while Hamstall-Ridware went to another male line.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Although he had issue, they all died as infants, so his four sisters inherited as heirs in general, while Hamstall-Ridware went to another male line.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Wjhonson
Oct 27, 2012, 11:00:11 AM10/27/12
to wjho...@aol.com, royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Oops I goofed. Hamstall Ridware was the portion of the eldest co-heiress Maud who married Anthony FitzHerbert the Judge. It descended to their son Thomas who died S.P. in the Tower of London in 1591
-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
To: royaldescent <royald...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 7:53 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Thomas only outlived his father a short while and perhaps never even lived at
the Manor because his mother Joan outlived him by several years.
Although he had issue, they all died as infants, so his four sisters inherited
as heirs in general, while Hamstall-Ridware went to another male line.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
To: royaldescent <royald...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 7:53 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Thomas only outlived his father a short while and perhaps never even lived at
the Manor because his mother Joan outlived him by several years.
Although he had issue, they all died as infants, so his four sisters inherited
as heirs in general, while Hamstall-Ridware went to another male line.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Wjhonson
Oct 27, 2012, 11:31:29 AM10/27/12
to wjho...@aol.com, royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
What is this name here in the upper right right next to the shield
http://books.google.com/books?id=QTAQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA75#v=twopage&q&f=true
Johanna dau of John Parys ?
Is that Parys? Or what
-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
To: royaldescent <royald...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 7:53 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Thomas only outlived his father a short while and perhaps never even lived at
the Manor because his mother Joan outlived him by several years.
Although he had issue, they all died as infants, so his four sisters inherited
as heirs in general, while Hamstall-Ridware went to another male line.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
http://books.google.com/books?id=QTAQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA75#v=twopage&q&f=true
Johanna dau of John Parys ?
Is that Parys? Or what
-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
To: royaldescent <royald...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 7:53 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Thomas only outlived his father a short while and perhaps never even lived at
the Manor because his mother Joan outlived him by several years.
Although he had issue, they all died as infants, so his four sisters inherited
as heirs in general, while Hamstall-Ridware went to another male line.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Wjhonson
Oct 27, 2012, 12:13:30 PM10/27/12
to wjho...@aol.com, royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
For those who are busy adding the Brus royal line to these Cottons, there is a graphical error in these tables, when they make Sir Hugh Wesenham descend (by a line) from the Brus. It was his wife Anneys who was the CO-heiress (not sole heiress) of her *brother* not father.
-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
To: wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>; royaldescent <royald...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 8:31 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
What is this name here in the upper right right next to the shield
http://books.google.com/books?id=QTAQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA75#v=twopage&q&f=true
Johanna dau of John Parys ?
Is that Parys? Or what
-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
To: royaldescent <royald...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 7:53 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Thomas only outlived his father a short while and perhaps never even lived at
the Manor because his mother Joan outlived him by several years.
Although he had issue, they all died as infants, so his four sisters inherited
as heirs in general, while Hamstall-Ridware went to another male line.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
To: wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>; royaldescent <royald...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 8:31 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
What is this name here in the upper right right next to the shield
http://books.google.com/books?id=QTAQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA75#v=twopage&q&f=true
Johanna dau of John Parys ?
Is that Parys? Or what
-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
To: royaldescent <royald...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 7:53 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Thomas only outlived his father a short while and perhaps never even lived at
the Manor because his mother Joan outlived him by several years.
Although he had issue, they all died as infants, so his four sisters inherited
as heirs in general, while Hamstall-Ridware went to another male line.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
John Higgins
Oct 27, 2012, 1:27:10 PM10/27/12
to
On Oct 27, 12:17 am, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 26, 9:43 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > If Maud Stanley was indeed married 1st to John Ferrers I and 2nd to
> > John Agard (as seems probable based on the comments in this thread),
> > this would rule out the possibility, suggested by Alex Stewart in a
> > 2004 post, that this John Ferrers m. (1) Maud Stanley and (2) Margaret
> > Hungerford of Down Ampney (from which marriage a daughter Catherine m.
> > Sir Anthony Babington of Dethick).
>
> Looking back over the 2006 posts, I think it's definite that Maud
> Stanley survived Sir John Ferrers and married second, John Agard:
>
> "C 142/30/26 Ferrers, alias Agard, Maud: Essex 7 Hen. VIII."http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/b7d91c8ad4c...
> On Oct 26, 9:43 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > If Maud Stanley was indeed married 1st to John Ferrers I and 2nd to
> > John Agard (as seems probable based on the comments in this thread),
> > this would rule out the possibility, suggested by Alex Stewart in a
> > 2004 post, that this John Ferrers m. (1) Maud Stanley and (2) Margaret
> > Hungerford of Down Ampney (from which marriage a daughter Catherine m.
> > Sir Anthony Babington of Dethick).
>
> Looking back over the 2006 posts, I think it's definite that Maud
> Stanley survived Sir John Ferrers and married second, John Agard:
>
>
> > Brad, you mentioned in 2006 that Alex Stewart was researching the
> > Margaret Hungerford/John Ferrers marriage. Do you know if there's
> > been any further information on this?
>
> None that I'm aware of.
>
> > I wonder (as I did in 2006!) if
> > Margaret Hungerford was instead a 1st wife of John Ferrers the son of
> > John ferrers and Maud Stanley.
>
> That's interesting. Given that John Ferrers of Tamworth the younger
> was born in 1474, Katherine, if his daughter by an earlier wife than
> Dorothy Harper, could've been born about 1494, possibly a couple years
> earlier. She was married to her second husband Anthony Babington by
> 1509 (per his bio in HOP), which would just fit chronologically. But
> Babington was her second husband. So a lot depends on further details
> about her first marriage to Thomas Cotton: was she a child bride, or a
> grown woman? Unfortunately, I don't yet have any details on Thomas
> Cotton.
>
> Cheers, ----Brad
The IPM of Thomas Cotton was 21 Henry VII, and he was survived by a
> > Brad, you mentioned in 2006 that Alex Stewart was researching the
> > Margaret Hungerford/John Ferrers marriage. Do you know if there's
> > been any further information on this?
>
> None that I'm aware of.
>
> > I wonder (as I did in 2006!) if
> > Margaret Hungerford was instead a 1st wife of John Ferrers the son of
> > John ferrers and Maud Stanley.
>
> That's interesting. Given that John Ferrers of Tamworth the younger
> was born in 1474, Katherine, if his daughter by an earlier wife than
> Dorothy Harper, could've been born about 1494, possibly a couple years
> earlier. She was married to her second husband Anthony Babington by
> 1509 (per his bio in HOP), which would just fit chronologically. But
> Babington was her second husband. So a lot depends on further details
> about her first marriage to Thomas Cotton: was she a child bride, or a
> grown woman? Unfortunately, I don't yet have any details on Thomas
> Cotton.
>
> Cheers, ----Brad
daughter (who later d. sp). Given that IPM date, it would be
difficult if not impossible for his wife Catherine Ferrers to be a
daughter of the younger John Ferrers who was born in 1474.
Nosing around the web a bit, it seems that Alex Stewart may have
abandoned the idea that Margaret Hungerford married John Ferrers the
elder. The Stirnet website includes some (unverified) additions to
the Ferrers pedigree, contributed by "AS", showing Catherine Ferrers
(wife of Thomas Cotton and Sir Anthony Babington) as daughter of the
elder John Ferrers by Maud Stanley I don't know if there is any
support for this, but it seems to make sense chronologically.
A Hungerford pedigree in an old edition of BLG shows a Margaret
Hungerford married to "John Ferrers of Plowden, Wilts". Perhaps this
John Ferrers was assumed to be identical with the John Ferrers of
Tamworth - elder or younger.
Wjhonson
Oct 27, 2012, 1:27:16 PM10/27/12
to wjho...@aol.com, royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
There is another error here I see.
Mary "Wesenham" who married firstly William Cotton of Conington (d 1455), secondly Thomas Lacy, thirdly Chief Justice Thomas Billing (d 1481) was not a Wesenham.
She was the heiress of her childless *uncle* Robert Wesenham which is how Conington came to her.
She was in fact a Folville.
Mary "Wesenham" who married firstly William Cotton of Conington (d 1455), secondly Thomas Lacy, thirdly Chief Justice Thomas Billing (d 1481) was not a Wesenham.
She was the heiress of her childless *uncle* Robert Wesenham which is how Conington came to her.
She was in fact a Folville.
Wjhonson
Oct 27, 2012, 1:33:19 PM10/27/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
How odd that I would say this and then you'd repeat it as if you hadn't seen my message
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 10:30 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 10:30 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Wjhonson
Oct 27, 2012, 1:34:29 PM10/27/12
to wjho...@aol.com, royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
She was her uncle's "eventual" heir, it was actually her first cousin Thomas who gave her Conington
To: wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>; royaldescent <royald...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 10:27 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 10:27 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
There is another error here I see.
Mary "Wesenham" who married firstly William Cotton of Conington (d 1455), secondly Thomas Lacy, thirdly Chief Justice Thomas Billing (d 1481) was not a Wesenham.
She was the heiress of her childless *uncle* Robert Wesenham which is how Conington came to her.
She was in fact a Folville.
-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
Mary "Wesenham" who married firstly William Cotton of Conington (d 1455), secondly Thomas Lacy, thirdly Chief Justice Thomas Billing (d 1481) was not a Wesenham.
She was the heiress of her childless *uncle* Robert Wesenham which is how Conington came to her.
She was in fact a Folville.
-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
To: wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>; royaldescent <royald...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 9:13 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 9:13 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
For those who are busy adding the Brus royal line to these Cottons, there is a graphical error in these tables, when they make Sir Hugh Wesenham descend (by a line) from the Brus. It was his wife Anneys who was the CO-heiress (not sole heiress) of her *brother* not father.
-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
To: wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>; royaldescent <royald...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 8:31 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 8:31 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
What is this name here in the upper right right next to the shield
http://books.google.com/books?id=QTAQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA75#v=twopage&q&f=true
Johanna dau of John Parys ?
Is that Parys? Or what
-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
http://books.google.com/books?id=QTAQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA75#v=twopage&q&f=true
Johanna dau of John Parys ?
Is that Parys? Or what
-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
To: royaldescent <royald...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 7:53 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 7:53 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Thomas only outlived his father a short while and perhaps never even lived at
the Manor because his mother Joan outlived him by several years.
Although he had issue, they all died as infants, so his four sisters inherited
as heirs in general, while Hamstall-Ridware went to another male line.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
the Manor because his mother Joan outlived him by several years.
Although he had issue, they all died as infants, so his four sisters inherited
as heirs in general, while Hamstall-Ridware went to another male line.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
John Higgins
Oct 27, 2012, 1:58:18 PM10/27/12
to
On Oct 27, 9:13 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> For those who are busy adding the Brus royal line to these Cottons, there is a graphical error in these tables, when they make Sir Hugh Wesenham descend (by a line) from the Brus. It was his wife Anneys who was the CO-heiress (not sole heiress) of her *brother* not father.
>
Since you're eagerly data-mining this particular pedigree, you may
> For those who are busy adding the Brus royal line to these Cottons, there is a graphical error in these tables, when they make Sir Hugh Wesenham descend (by a line) from the Brus. It was his wife Anneys who was the CO-heiress (not sole heiress) of her *brother* not father.
>
want to be careful with respect to the male-line ancestry of Thomas
Cotton who triggered this search. There are several published
pedigrees (at least 4 or 5) of the Cottons, and no two of them are in
agreement with one another. This one omits one generation, adds
another one, and has various details at variance with other pedigrees.
Brad Verity
Oct 27, 2012, 2:56:46 PM10/27/12
to
On Oct 26, 10:24 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> In the will of Walter Griffith, Anthony Babington is called "brother".
> In today's language we would say he was the brother of Walter's sister-in-law
I think you meant to say, Will, the *husband* of Walter's sister-in-
> In the will of Walter Griffith, Anthony Babington is called "brother".
> In today's language we would say he was the brother of Walter's sister-in-law
law. In any case, Griffith's will is very strong evidence that
Katherine Ferrers was the daughter of Sir John Ferrers I (d. 1484),
and not of his son Sir John Ferrers II (d. 1512). Good catch!
On Oct 27, 10:27 am, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The IPM of Thomas Cotton was 21 Henry VII, and he was survived by a
> daughter (who later d. sp). Given that IPM date, it would be
> difficult if not impossible for his wife Catherine Ferrers to be a
> daughter of the younger John Ferrers who was born in 1474.
his details to my database.
> Nosing around the web a bit, it seems that Alex Stewart may have
> abandoned the idea that Margaret Hungerford married John Ferrers the
> elder. The Stirnet website includes some (unverified) additions to
> the Ferrers pedigree, contributed by "AS", showing Catherine Ferrers
> (wife of Thomas Cotton and Sir Anthony Babington) as daughter of the
> elder John Ferrers by Maud Stanley I don't know if there is any
> support for this, but it seems to make sense chronologically.
parentage.
> A Hungerford pedigree in an old edition of BLG shows a Margaret
> Hungerford married to "John Ferrers of Plowden, Wilts". Perhaps this
> John Ferrers was assumed to be identical with the John Ferrers of
> Tamworth - elder or younger.
of a Ferrers/Hungerford marriage - this is it, BLG. You know, there
was an earlier 15th century John Ferrers, the 3rd (and youngest?) son
of William, 5th Lord Ferrers of Groby (1372-1445). Nothing much is
known of him, though chronologically, it seems he would be the John
Ferrers who was the second husband of Katherine Burnell (1405-1452).
I wonder if it was this John Ferrers, or possibly a namesake son, who
was the "John Ferrers of Plowden, Wilts" who married Margaret
Hungerford. Especially since Katherine Burnell's sister Margery
(1409-1486) was married to Sir Edmund Hungerford of Down Ampney (d.
1484).
Here is a pedigree of Ferrers (from 'The Gresleys of Drakelow' (1899)
by Falconer Madan):
http://archive.org/stream/The_Gresleys_of_Drakelowe/TheGresleysofDrakelowe#page/n269/mode/2up
Madan has Thomas & John Ferrers as sons of the 5th Lord Ferrers of
Groby by his 3rd wife, Elizabeth (Standish) Wrottesley (c.1380-1442).
I don't believe it works chronologically, since the 5th Lord &
Elizabeth weren't married until 1416, but it may be that Thomas & John
Ferrers were sons of the 5th Lord by his 2nd wife, Margaret Montagu,
with Thomas Ferrers being named for his maternal uncle, Thomas
Montagu, Earl of Salisbury, and John Ferrers being named for his
maternal grandfather, John Montagu, Earl of Salisbury.
Thomas Ferrers, of Flecknoe, was returned as age 40 and more in his
father the 5th Lord's 1445 IPMs. I have him born 10 years earlier,
about 1395, in my database for the sole reason that his wife Elizabeth
Freville was born in 1394. But it is always possible, though unusual,
for him to have been several years younger than her. If Thomas was
from the 5th Lord's 1st wife Philippa Clifford, he could have been
named for her brother, Thomas, 6th Lord Clifford.
Without death dates for the 5th Lord's first & second wives, or a
marriage date for the second, it's hard to determine which wife he had
his children by, other than his eldest son & heir Henry, who was
definitely from the 1st wife.
Cheers, -------Brad
Wjhonson
Oct 27, 2012, 3:30:52 PM10/27/12
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Yes I can *help* (a word abhorrent to my very nature, but there you go)
Not only was Thomas "aged 40 and more" in 1445 (leading one to gasp at his marrying a woman apparently ten years his senior), *but* he was "aged 50 and MORE" in 1452
Which allows us to make him a little more of a match for his elderly wife
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 12:00 pm
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Not only was Thomas "aged 40 and more" in 1445 (leading one to gasp at his marrying a woman apparently ten years his senior), *but* he was "aged 50 and MORE" in 1452
Which allows us to make him a little more of a match for his elderly wife
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 12:00 pm
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Doug Smith
Oct 27, 2012, 3:34:33 PM10/27/12
to
Robert Cooke and Sir Richard St George, The Visitations of Hertfordshire, 1572, 1634, ed. Walter C. Metcalfe, London, (1886), pps 141-142.
Doug
Brad Verity
Oct 27, 2012, 6:54:08 PM10/27/12
to
On Oct 27, 12:30 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> Yes I can *help* (a word abhorrent to my very nature, but there you go)
>
> Not only was Thomas "aged 40 and more" in 1445 (leading one to gasp at his marrying a woman apparently ten years his senior), *but* he was "aged 50 and MORE" in 1452
>
> Which allows us to make him a little more of a match for his elderly wife
Thanks, Will. Thomas Ferrers was given seisin of his wife's Freville
> Yes I can *help* (a word abhorrent to my very nature, but there you go)
>
> Not only was Thomas "aged 40 and more" in 1445 (leading one to gasp at his marrying a woman apparently ten years his senior), *but* he was "aged 50 and MORE" in 1452
>
> Which allows us to make him a little more of a match for his elderly wife
inheritance in July 1419:
http://www.archive.org/stream/calendaroffiner14greauoft#page/282/mode/2up
I wonder if this means he had to be age 21 by then, and so born by
1398? By December 1421, when Thomas was granted his wife's share of
her mother Joyce's dower lands, he and Elizabeth had issue:
http://www.archive.org/stream/calendaroffiner14greauoft#page/372/mode/2up
On Oct 27, 12:34 pm, Doug Smith <smith.doug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The John Ferrers (youngest son of William Ferrers and Philippa is said to have married Agatha Breakspeare)
>
> Robert Cooke and Sir Richard St George, The Visitations of Hertfordshire, 1572, 1634, ed. Walter C. Metcalfe, London, (1886), pps 141-142.
taken at the 1634 Visitation, 200 years after John Ferrers lived. I
can't find any instance of the surname 'Breakspeare', even accounting
for spelling variations, in the Chancery Roll volumes from the early
1400s which I've checked, though I haven't checked them all. Nor can
I find any instance of the surname Breakspeare in the National
Archives prior to the 1790s, save for Nicholas Breakspeare from the
12th century, the only Englishman to be made a Pope (Adrian IV). He
was from Abbots Langley/St Albans in Hertfordshire, but his family was
said to be peasant/servant level. It is of course possible that they
later were granted lands and reached gentry level by the late 14th/
early 15th century, but if so, it would be expected for the name to
appear in records of the time.
So I'm doubting that John Ferrers, son of the Lord Ferrers of Groby,
did marry a "Agatha Breakspeare", despite the evidence of the
Visitation pedigree, which is here:
http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationshert00philgoog#page/n155/mode/2up
It is interesting to see that there was a Hertfordshire branch of the
Ferrers family who understood themselves to be descended from the
Lords Ferrers of Groby, and who quartered arms ("Vert, eight spears
interlaced in saltire Or barbed Argent") identified in the pedigree as
those of "Breakspeare". Again, I'm just not yet convinced that it was
the 5th Lord's son John Ferrers who married into that family,
especially with the spouse in the next generation being unidentified
in the pedigree.
Cheers, -----Brad
MILLARD A.R.
Oct 28, 2012, 5:47:23 AM10/28/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> From: Brad Verity [mailto:royald...@hotmail.com]
> Sent: 27 October 2012 23:54
https://www.hertsdirect.org/ufs/ufsmain?formid=HALS_INDEXES and search on Breakspear
There is said to be an Adrian Breakspear living in Abbots Langley in the mid-15th century
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43287&strquery=breakspear
which would fit approximately with the date for this marriage.
I think it looks possible that there was a local family with minor landholdings that escaped appearing in the Chancery Rolls you've looked at.
Best wishes
Andrew
--
Andrew Millard - A.R.M...@durham.ac.uk
Bodimeade genealogy: http://community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/Bodimeade/
My family history: http://community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/
GenUKI Middx + London: http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/ + ../LND/
> Sent: 27 October 2012 23:54
>
> Thanks for this, Doug. But this appears to be a Ferrers pedigree
> taken at the 1634 Visitation, 200 years after John Ferrers lived. I
> can't find any instance of the surname 'Breakspeare', even accounting
> for spelling variations, in the Chancery Roll volumes from the early
> 1400s which I've checked, though I haven't checked them all. Nor can
> I find any instance of the surname Breakspeare in the National
> Archives prior to the 1790s,
As Breakspear Farm, Abbots Langley is in Hertfordshire I checked Hertfordshire Archives. There are references to the Manor of Breakspear back to the 1670s. Presumably this manorial name is medieval and likely to be linked to the family.
> Thanks for this, Doug. But this appears to be a Ferrers pedigree
> taken at the 1634 Visitation, 200 years after John Ferrers lived. I
> can't find any instance of the surname 'Breakspeare', even accounting
> for spelling variations, in the Chancery Roll volumes from the early
> 1400s which I've checked, though I haven't checked them all. Nor can
> I find any instance of the surname Breakspeare in the National
> Archives prior to the 1790s,
https://www.hertsdirect.org/ufs/ufsmain?formid=HALS_INDEXES and search on Breakspear
There is said to be an Adrian Breakspear living in Abbots Langley in the mid-15th century
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43287&strquery=breakspear
which would fit approximately with the date for this marriage.
I think it looks possible that there was a local family with minor landholdings that escaped appearing in the Chancery Rolls you've looked at.
Best wishes
Andrew
--
Andrew Millard - A.R.M...@durham.ac.uk
Bodimeade genealogy: http://community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/Bodimeade/
My family history: http://community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/
GenUKI Middx + London: http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/ + ../LND/
Matt Tompkins
Oct 28, 2012, 7:45:31 AM10/28/12
to
> > From: Brad Verity [mailto:royaldesc...@hotmail.com]
> As Breakspear Farm, Abbots Langley is in Hertfordshire I checked Hertfordshire Archives. There are references to the Manor of Breakspear back to the 1670s. Presumably this manorial name is medieval and likely to be linked to the family.https://www.hertsdirect.org/ufs/ufsmain?formid=HALS_INDEXESand search on Breakspear
>
> There is said to be an Adrian Breakspear living in Abbots Langley in the mid-15th centuryhttp://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43287&strquery=br...
of Breakspears from Lincolnshire (Alexander Brekespere, Curia Regis
rolls, 1199), Surrey (Geoffrey Brekespere, Curia Regis rolls, 1206)
and Bedfordshire (Thomas Brekaspere, Assize Rolls, 1227). And of
course the only English pope, Adrian IV (d. 1159), was born Nicholas
Breakspear in Abbots Langley in Hertfordshire.
An A2A search against Brekespere and various other spellings produces
quite a few references to a family connected to Harefield in Middlesex
who were also citizens of London in the late 14th and early 15th
centuries. Agatha Breakspeare may have been one of them.
Matt Tompkins
> > Sent: 27 October 2012 23:54
>
> > Thanks for this, Doug. But this appears to be a Ferrers pedigree
> > taken at the 1634 Visitation, 200 years after John Ferrers lived. I
> > can't find any instance of the surname 'Breakspeare', even accounting
> > for spelling variations, in the Chancery Roll volumes from the early
> > 1400s which I've checked, though I haven't checked them all. Nor can
> > I find any instance of the surname Breakspeare in the National
> > Archives prior to the 1790s,
>
On Oct 28, 9:47 am, "MILLARD A.R." <a.r.mill...@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for this, Doug. But this appears to be a Ferrers pedigree
> > taken at the 1634 Visitation, 200 years after John Ferrers lived. I
> > can't find any instance of the surname 'Breakspeare', even accounting
> > for spelling variations, in the Chancery Roll volumes from the early
> > 1400s which I've checked, though I haven't checked them all. Nor can
> > I find any instance of the surname Breakspeare in the National
> > Archives prior to the 1790s,
>
> As Breakspear Farm, Abbots Langley is in Hertfordshire I checked Hertfordshire Archives. There are references to the Manor of Breakspear back to the 1670s. Presumably this manorial name is medieval and likely to be linked to the family.https://www.hertsdirect.org/ufs/ufsmain?formid=HALS_INDEXESand search on Breakspear
>
> There is said to be an Adrian Breakspear living in Abbots Langley in the mid-15th centuryhttp://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43287&strquery=br...
> which would fit approximately with the date for this marriage.
>
> I think it looks possible that there was a local family with minor landholdings that escaped appearing in the Chancery Rolls you've looked at.
Reaney's Dictionary of English Surnames gives several early examples
>
> I think it looks possible that there was a local family with minor landholdings that escaped appearing in the Chancery Rolls you've looked at.
of Breakspears from Lincolnshire (Alexander Brekespere, Curia Regis
rolls, 1199), Surrey (Geoffrey Brekespere, Curia Regis rolls, 1206)
and Bedfordshire (Thomas Brekaspere, Assize Rolls, 1227). And of
course the only English pope, Adrian IV (d. 1159), was born Nicholas
Breakspear in Abbots Langley in Hertfordshire.
An A2A search against Brekespere and various other spellings produces
quite a few references to a family connected to Harefield in Middlesex
who were also citizens of London in the late 14th and early 15th
centuries. Agatha Breakspeare may have been one of them.
Matt Tompkins
Matt Tompkins
Oct 28, 2012, 10:50:58 AM10/28/12
to
> > > From: Brad Verity [mailto:royaldesc...@hotmail.com]
> > > Sent: 27 October 2012 23:54
>
> > > Thanks for this, Doug. But this appears to be a Ferrers pedigree
> > > taken at the 1634 Visitation, 200 years after John Ferrers lived. I
> > > can't find any instance of the surname 'Breakspeare', even accounting
> > > for spelling variations, in the Chancery Roll volumes from the early
> > > 1400s which I've checked, though I haven't checked them all. Nor can
> > > I find any instance of the surname Breakspeare in the National
> > > Archives prior to the 1790s,
>
> On Oct 28, 9:47 am, "MILLARD A.R." <a.r.mill...@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > As Breakspear Farm, Abbots Langley is in Hertfordshire I checked Hertfordshire Archives. There are references to the Manor of Breakspear back to the 1670s. Presumably this manorial name is medieval and likely to be linked to the family.https://www.hertsdirect.org/ufs/ufsmain?formid=HALS_INDEXESandsearch on Breakspear
> > > Sent: 27 October 2012 23:54
>
> > > Thanks for this, Doug. But this appears to be a Ferrers pedigree
> > > taken at the 1634 Visitation, 200 years after John Ferrers lived. I
> > > can't find any instance of the surname 'Breakspeare', even accounting
> > > for spelling variations, in the Chancery Roll volumes from the early
> > > 1400s which I've checked, though I haven't checked them all. Nor can
> > > I find any instance of the surname Breakspeare in the National
> > > Archives prior to the 1790s,
>
> On Oct 28, 9:47 am, "MILLARD A.R." <a.r.mill...@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
> > There is said to be an Adrian Breakspear living in Abbots Langley in the mid-15th centuryhttp://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43287&strquery=br...
> > which would fit approximately with the date for this marriage.
>
> > I think it looks possible that there was a local family with minor landholdings that escaped appearing in the Chancery Rolls you've looked at.
> > GenUKI Middx + London:http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/+../LND/
>
> > There is said to be an Adrian Breakspear living in Abbots Langley in the mid-15th centuryhttp://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43287&strquery=br...
> > which would fit approximately with the date for this marriage.
>
> > I think it looks possible that there was a local family with minor landholdings that escaped appearing in the Chancery Rolls you've looked at.
> > GenUKI Middx + London:http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/+../LND/
>
On Oct 28, 11:45 am, Matt Tompkins <ml...@le.ac.uk> wrote:
> Reaney's Dictionary of English Surnames gives several early examples
> of Breakspears from Lincolnshire (Alexander Brekespere, Curia Regis
> rolls, 1199), Surrey (Geoffrey Brekespere, Curia Regis rolls, 1206)
> and Bedfordshire (Thomas Brekaspere, Assize Rolls, 1227). And of
> course the only English pope, Adrian IV (d. 1159), was born Nicholas
> Breakspear in Abbots Langley in Hertfordshire.
>
> An A2A search against Brekespere and various other spellings produces
> quite a few references to a family connected to Harefield in Middlesex
> who were also citizens of London in the late 14th and early 15th
> centuries. Agatha Breakspeare may have been one of them.
It seems the Golden Book of St Albans (the Liber Benefactorum of St
> Reaney's Dictionary of English Surnames gives several early examples
> of Breakspears from Lincolnshire (Alexander Brekespere, Curia Regis
> rolls, 1199), Surrey (Geoffrey Brekespere, Curia Regis rolls, 1206)
> and Bedfordshire (Thomas Brekaspere, Assize Rolls, 1227). And of
> course the only English pope, Adrian IV (d. 1159), was born Nicholas
> Breakspear in Abbots Langley in Hertfordshire.
>
> An A2A search against Brekespere and various other spellings produces
> quite a few references to a family connected to Harefield in Middlesex
> who were also citizens of London in the late 14th and early 15th
> centuries. Agatha Breakspeare may have been one of them.
Albans abbey - BL, Cotton MS Nero D VII) has a reference to John
Ferrers and his wife Agatha, co-heiress of Adrian Brekespere of
Langley:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3YkLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA16&dq=agatha+%22john+ferrers%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=L0KNUJf4L9Ds0gXM0oHwBg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=agatha%20%22john%20ferrers%22&f=false
Matt Tompkins
PS sorry Andrew, I've just noticed that your BHOL link contained a
reference to pope Adrian and his origins in Abbots Langley - you
mentioned him before me.
Brad Verity
Oct 28, 2012, 12:33:09 PM10/28/12
to
On Oct 28, 7:50 am, Matt Tompkins <ml...@le.ac.uk> wrote:
> It seems the Golden Book of St Albans (the Liber Benefactorum of St
> Albans abbey - BL, Cotton MS Nero D VII) has a reference to John
> Ferrers and his wife Agatha, co-heiress of Adrian Brekespere of
> Langley:
>
> http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3YkLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA16&dq=agatha+%22...
> It seems the Golden Book of St Albans (the Liber Benefactorum of St
> Albans abbey - BL, Cotton MS Nero D VII) has a reference to John
> Ferrers and his wife Agatha, co-heiress of Adrian Brekespere of
> Langley:
>
Many thanks for the link, Matt. It's great you found 15th-century
validation for the marriage! I'll continue to search in Chancery Roll
indexes, now looking for an Adrian (not Alexander), and use the
spelling 'Brekespere'. I hadn't looked closely with that spelling - I
was trying 'Brakespere'.
On Oct 28, 2:47 am, "MILLARD A.R." <a.r.mill...@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
> As Breakspear Farm, Abbots Langley is in Hertfordshire I checked Hertfordshire Archives. There are references to the Manor of Breakspear back to the 1670s. Presumably this manorial name is medieval and likely to be linked to the family.https://www.hertsdirect.org/ufs/ufsmain?formid=HALS_INDEXESand search on Breakspear
>
> There is said to be an Adrian Breakspear living in Abbots Langley in the mid-15th centuryhttp://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43287&strquery=br...
> which would fit approximately with the date for this marriage.
Yes, it does. Another interesting point is that there was another
> There is said to be an Adrian Breakspear living in Abbots Langley in the mid-15th centuryhttp://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43287&strquery=br...
> which would fit approximately with the date for this marriage.
manor in Abbots Langley called Hyde, which was held by the Montagu
Earls of Salisbury in the early 15th-century, followed by the
Nevilles. If John Ferrers was the son of Margaret Montagu, the second
wife of the 5th Lord Ferrers of Groby, it at least would explain how
he came to fall within the sphere of Abbots Langley and such a
localized family as the Breakspears.
Katherine Burnell Radcliffe's chief seat was Attleborough in Norfolk,
in East Anglia, like Hertfordshire. It may still be possible that
this John Ferrers of Abbots Langley was her second husband, with her
being his second wife.
Thanks & Cheers, -------Brad
John Higgins
Oct 28, 2012, 4:17:43 PM10/28/12
to
> I currently have 5 children for Maud Stanley Ferrers:
>
> 1) Sir John Ferrers of Tamworth Castle (born c.1464; died 16 July
> 1512), married Dorothy, daughter of William Harpur of Rushall &
> Margaret Cocks, and had at least one son (Humphrey) & one daughter
> (Mary).
I don't have a daughter Mary for Sir John Ferrers and Dorothy Harpur,
>
> 1) Sir John Ferrers of Tamworth Castle (born c.1464; died 16 July
> 1512), married Dorothy, daughter of William Harpur of Rushall &
> Margaret Cocks, and had at least one son (Humphrey) & one daughter
> (Mary).
but I do have a daughter Anne who married John Peyto of Chesterton,
Warwickshire (d. 1558) - although without particularly good support.
A short note on Sir John Ferrers and Dorothy Harpur in "Tamworth
Castle" by Rev. Henry Norris (1899) says that this couple "had a
numerous family" - but lists only their son Humphrey. Perhaps we have
more children yet to be found - or perhaps some of Sir John's sisters
have historically been assigned as his daughters instead.
Brad Verity
Oct 28, 2012, 8:59:22 PM10/28/12
to
On Oct 28, 1:17 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I don't have a daughter Mary for Sir John Ferrers and Dorothy Harpur,
Mary Ferrers, married 1st, Sir Walter Smyth of Sherford (born 1501;
> I don't have a daughter Mary for Sir John Ferrers and Dorothy Harpur,
died 15 May 1553), son of Henry Smyth of Fletchampstead (died 1514) &
Joan Stafford, and had issue, at least one son, Richard Smyth of
Sherford (1531-1593). She married 2nd, as his 3rd wife, Sir William
Smyth of Elford (died 10 January 1526), whose parentage is
undiscovered, and by him had further issue, at least one son, Humphrey
Smyth. Thru her elder son Richard, Mary Ferrers is an ancestor of
Jane Smyth (died 25 February 1646), the 2nd wife of Edmund Neville of
Pinvin (bef1555-c.1620), heir male of the house of Neville, and
titular 7th Earl of Westmorland & Lord Latimer.
> but I do have a daughter Anne who married John Peyto of Chesterton,
> Warwickshire (d. 1558) - although without particularly good support.
Humphrey Ferrers of Tamworth (born c.1497) & his 1st wife Margaret
Pigott, and so granddaughter of Sir John Ferrers & Dorothy Harper.
But this line is skeletal in my database, I haven't looked at it
closely, and it may well be incorrect or incomplete.
By the way Anne Ferrers Peyto is an ancestor of the Boughton Baronets
of Lawford Hall, so Will will come across her at some point if he
pursues the ancestry of BBC radio personality Alexander Armstrong.
> A short note on Sir John Ferrers and Dorothy Harpur in "Tamworth
> Castle" by Rev. Henry Norris (1899) says that this couple "had a
> numerous family" - but lists only their son Humphrey. Perhaps we have
> more children yet to be found - or perhaps some of Sir John's sisters
> have historically been assigned as his daughters instead.
Cheers, --------Brad
John Higgins
Oct 29, 2012, 12:17:06 AM10/29/12
to
a pedigree in the 1619 visitation of Warwickshire to be a daughter of
John (not Humphrey) Ferrers. Her husband's father Sir John Peyto is
said in VCH Warwickshire to be born ca. 1478 - aged 9 in 1487 at the
death of his father Edward (and also Edward's father John a month
earlier). So Sir John Peyto is a close contemporary of the younger
John Ferrers, who we've agreed was born ca. 1474. It would seem to be
more logical chronologically that Sir John Peyto's son John married a
daughter rather than a granddaughter of the younger John Ferrers -
thus agreeing with the visitation pedigree. It is interesting,
however, that John Peyto and his wife Anne Ferrers named their son and
heir Humphrey - after her brother, or her father? What do you think?
Thanks for the info on Anne Ferrers and her Smyth husbands, as well as
the link to the Nevilles. Interesting...
One other point from your original post, regarding Anne Stanley (dau.
of Sir John Stanley and Cecily Arderne), wife of Sir Roger Cheney of
Woodhey. The Harleian Society's edition of the Berkshire visitations
says she was a daughter of Sir Richard Stanley of Pipe, while the 1565
visitation of Wiltshire (published in vol. 12 of The Genealogist [new
series]). Neither of these are convincing, since I can't either a
William or a Richard in the Stanleys of Pipe. But what source places
her as daughter of Sir John Stanley?
[Note to sports fans: The writing of this post was interrupted for a
time to participate in the citywide celebration currently (and loudly)
underway here in SF to mark the Giants' victory in the World Series.
Four straight wins - great job, Giants!]
Wjhonson
Oct 29, 2012, 1:11:42 AM10/29/12
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
This is backwards
She married firstly
William /Smythe/ of Elford, co Staf 1509; Quorndon, co Leic; Sibbertoft, co North'ton; Knt
he died 10 Jan 1526 buried at Elford, co Staff
By him a son Humphrey
Secondly by
8 Mar 1529/1530 date of post-nuptial indenture; first wife, second husband
she married
Walter /Smythe/ of Sherford in Burton Hastings, co Warw; Knt
heir of his father; "aged 14" in 1515
by whom a son
Richard /Smythe/ who married Dorothy /Wallop/
Most famously Walter married secondly Dorothy /Chetwynd/
and died 15 May 1553 smothered by his second wife Dorothy
for which she was burnt at the stake at Wolvey Heath, co Warw
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sun, Oct 28, 2012 6:00 pm
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
She married firstly
William /Smythe/ of Elford, co Staf 1509; Quorndon, co Leic; Sibbertoft, co North'ton; Knt
he died 10 Jan 1526 buried at Elford, co Staff
By him a son Humphrey
Secondly by
8 Mar 1529/1530 date of post-nuptial indenture; first wife, second husband
she married
Walter /Smythe/ of Sherford in Burton Hastings, co Warw; Knt
heir of his father; "aged 14" in 1515
by whom a son
Richard /Smythe/ who married Dorothy /Wallop/
Most famously Walter married secondly Dorothy /Chetwynd/
and died 15 May 1553 smothered by his second wife Dorothy
for which she was burnt at the stake at Wolvey Heath, co Warw
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sun, Oct 28, 2012 6:00 pm
Subject: Re: Ferrers of Tamworth/Stanley of Elford
Brad Verity
Oct 29, 2012, 1:52:42 AM10/29/12
to
On Oct 28, 9:17 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> With respect to Anne Ferrers, wife of John Peyto, she is indicated in
> a pedigree in the 1619 visitation of Warwickshire to be a daughter of
> John (not Humphrey) Ferrers. Her husband's father Sir John Peyto is
> said in VCH Warwickshire to be born ca. 1478 - aged 9 in 1487 at the
> death of his father Edward (and also Edward's father John a month
> earlier). So Sir John Peyto is a close contemporary of the younger
> John Ferrers, who we've agreed was born ca. 1474. It would seem to be
> more logical chronologically that Sir John Peyto's son John married a
> daughter rather than a granddaughter of the younger John Ferrers -
> thus agreeing with the visitation pedigree. It is interesting,
> however, that John Peyto and his wife Anne Ferrers named their son and
> heir Humphrey - after her brother, or her father? What do you think?
I not only think, I now know, that you are correct that Anne was the
> With respect to Anne Ferrers, wife of John Peyto, she is indicated in
> a pedigree in the 1619 visitation of Warwickshire to be a daughter of
> John (not Humphrey) Ferrers. Her husband's father Sir John Peyto is
> said in VCH Warwickshire to be born ca. 1478 - aged 9 in 1487 at the
> death of his father Edward (and also Edward's father John a month
> earlier). So Sir John Peyto is a close contemporary of the younger
> John Ferrers, who we've agreed was born ca. 1474. It would seem to be
> more logical chronologically that Sir John Peyto's son John married a
> daughter rather than a granddaughter of the younger John Ferrers -
> thus agreeing with the visitation pedigree. It is interesting,
> however, that John Peyto and his wife Anne Ferrers named their son and
> heir Humphrey - after her brother, or her father? What do you think?
sister, not the daughter of Sir Humphrey Ferrers. I can only see a
snippet view of The British Archivist Volume 1 (1913), but I am able
to see its referral to the marriage contract of Anne Ferrers & John
Peyto (p. 168):
"1525. Settlement, 7 July 17 Hen. 8, on the marriage of John s. & h.
of John Peyto Esq. & Anne dau. of John Ferrers Esq. & Dorothy his
wife."
http://books.google.ca/books?ei=3xGOUPnfC6bAiwLMnIHYBw&id=4UhFAAAAYAAJ&dq=Anne+Ferrers+Peyto&q=Ferrers#search_anchor
I've adjusted my database accordingly.
> One other point from your original post, regarding Anne Stanley (dau.
> of Sir John Stanley and Cecily Arderne), wife of Sir Roger Cheney of
> Woodhey. The Harleian Society's edition of the Berkshire visitations
> says she was a daughter of Sir Richard Stanley of Pipe, while the 1565
> visitation of Wiltshire (published in vol. 12 of The Genealogist [new
> series]). Neither of these are convincing, since I can't either a
> William or a Richard in the Stanleys of Pipe. But what source places
> her as daughter of Sir John Stanley?
The only reason this Anne Stanley is in my database is that she was
the mother of John Cheney of West Woodhay (died 2 March 1545), whose
second wife, Jane Carew, is a descendant of Edward I. John Cheney's
1st wife, Jane Norreys, I have as the daughter of William Norreys of
Yattendon (born about 1433; died 4 January 1507) & his 3rd wife Anne
Horne (died 1505), whose second husband (of three - Norreys was the
3rd & last) was Sir John Stanley of Elford (1423-1476).
Tudor Place has Anne Stanley, wife of Roger Cheney, as the daughter of
the younger Sir John Stanley of Elford, the one who died in 1508, but
that would make Anne's son John Cheney the husband of the daughter of
his step great-grandmother, which seemed too much of a gap. Since
Tudor Place erred and made Maud Stanley Ferrers the daughter of the
younger Sir John Stanley of Elford, I figured they had erred as well
with her sister Anne Stanley Cheney.
Cheers, ------Brad
Brad Verity
Oct 29, 2012, 1:56:36 AM10/29/12
to
On Oct 28, 10:11 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> This is backwards
> She married firstly
> William /Smythe/ of Elford, co Staf 1509; Quorndon, co Leic; Sibbertoft, co North'ton; Knt
> he died 10 Jan 1526 buried at Elford, co Staff
> By him a son Humphrey
Yes, it is, Will - thanks for catching it. I adjusted the order of
> This is backwards
> She married firstly
> William /Smythe/ of Elford, co Staf 1509; Quorndon, co Leic; Sibbertoft, co North'ton; Knt
> he died 10 Jan 1526 buried at Elford, co Staff
> By him a son Humphrey
Mary's spouses in my database.
> Secondly by
> 8 Mar 1529/1530 date of post-nuptial indenture; first wife, second husband
> she married
> Walter /Smythe/ of Sherford in Burton Hastings, co Warw; Knt
> heir of his father; "aged 14" in 1515
> by whom a son
> Richard /Smythe/ who married Dorothy /Wallop/
>
> Most famously Walter married secondly Dorothy /Chetwynd/
> and died 15 May 1553 smothered by his second wife Dorothy
> for which she was burnt at the stake at Wolvey Heath, co Warw
Chetwynd I did have.
Thanks & Cheers, ----Brad
Matthew Connolly
Oct 29, 2012, 10:28:06 AM10/29/12
to
On Saturday, October 27, 2012 5:11:20 AM UTC+3, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> On Oct 26, 7:13 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > This information might be helpful to your quest:
>
> >
>
> > Source: Shawcross, Arms of the Family: The Significance of John
>
> > Milton’s Relatives & Associates (2004): 53 & 248:
>
> >
>
> > In 1515 John Agard, of Foston and Sudbury, endowed a chantry for souls
>
> > at the church of Scropton. Masses were to be said for the souls of
>
> > the founder, his wife Joan, and several other individuals, including
>
> > John Stanley, Lady Elizabeth his wife and their children, and Sir John
>
> > Ferrers and his wife Matilda [i.e., Maud].
>
>
>
> Dear Matthew ~
>
>
>
> As a follow up to my previous post, I find that Palmer, History and
>
> Antiquities of the Collegiate Church of Tamworth (1871): 89 indicates
>
> that Maud Stanley, widow of Sir John Ferrers, of Tamworth"married
>
> again to John Agard, Esq., of Tutbury and was still alive with him in
>
> 1506 ..."
>
>
>
> If so, then John Stanley and Lady Elizabeth his wife on the 1515
>
> chantry list would appear to have been the parents of John Agard's
>
> wife, Maud Stanley, and that would explain their inclusion in the
>
> chantry list. This also give you support for the placement of Maud
>
> (Stanley) (Ferrers) as the daughter of Sir John Stanley and his 2nd
>
> wife, Elizabeth Vernon.
>
>
>
> I trust this information is helpful to you.
>
>
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Many thanks Douglas for posting this information; I was away from the computer again at the weekend so have only just caught up with this thread. An interesting addition about the Agard marriage - they seem to have had several marital links to the Vernons around this time. Good to know it fits with the suggested placement in the Stanley family, too.
-Matthew
> On Oct 26, 7:13 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > This information might be helpful to your quest:
>
> >
>
> > Source: Shawcross, Arms of the Family: The Significance of John
>
> > Milton’s Relatives & Associates (2004): 53 & 248:
>
> >
>
> > In 1515 John Agard, of Foston and Sudbury, endowed a chantry for souls
>
> > at the church of Scropton. Masses were to be said for the souls of
>
> > the founder, his wife Joan, and several other individuals, including
>
> > John Stanley, Lady Elizabeth his wife and their children, and Sir John
>
> > Ferrers and his wife Matilda [i.e., Maud].
>
>
>
> Dear Matthew ~
>
>
>
> As a follow up to my previous post, I find that Palmer, History and
>
> Antiquities of the Collegiate Church of Tamworth (1871): 89 indicates
>
> that Maud Stanley, widow of Sir John Ferrers, of Tamworth"married
>
> again to John Agard, Esq., of Tutbury and was still alive with him in
>
> 1506 ..."
>
>
>
> If so, then John Stanley and Lady Elizabeth his wife on the 1515
>
> chantry list would appear to have been the parents of John Agard's
>
> wife, Maud Stanley, and that would explain their inclusion in the
>
> chantry list. This also give you support for the placement of Maud
>
> (Stanley) (Ferrers) as the daughter of Sir John Stanley and his 2nd
>
> wife, Elizabeth Vernon.
>
>
>
> I trust this information is helpful to you.
>
>
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Many thanks Douglas for posting this information; I was away from the computer again at the weekend so have only just caught up with this thread. An interesting addition about the Agard marriage - they seem to have had several marital links to the Vernons around this time. Good to know it fits with the suggested placement in the Stanley family, too.
-Matthew
Matthew Connolly
Oct 29, 2012, 2:44:57 PM10/29/12
to
On Monday, October 29, 2012 7:17:06 AM UTC+3, John Higgins wrote:
> One other point from your original post, regarding Anne Stanley (dau.
>
> of Sir John Stanley and Cecily Arderne), wife of Sir Roger Cheney of
>
> Woodhey. The Harleian Society's edition of the Berkshire visitations
>
> says she was a daughter of Sir Richard Stanley of Pipe, while the 1565
>
> visitation of Wiltshire (published in vol. 12 of The Genealogist [new
>
> series]). Neither of these are convincing, since I can't either a
>
> William or a Richard in the Stanleys of Pipe. But what source places
>
> her as daughter of Sir John Stanley?
>
>
Sir Humphrey Stanley of Pipe did have a younger son called William - the chronology is no doubt wrong, but it could at least be where they got the name from. (Still no Richard, though.)
> One other point from your original post, regarding Anne Stanley (dau.
>
> of Sir John Stanley and Cecily Arderne), wife of Sir Roger Cheney of
>
> Woodhey. The Harleian Society's edition of the Berkshire visitations
>
> says she was a daughter of Sir Richard Stanley of Pipe, while the 1565
>
> visitation of Wiltshire (published in vol. 12 of The Genealogist [new
>
> series]). Neither of these are convincing, since I can't either a
>
> William or a Richard in the Stanleys of Pipe. But what source places
>
> her as daughter of Sir John Stanley?
>
>
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