Ancient Saxon lineage
CARRIED AWAY
Thank you very much, Gordon, for your extensive response to my query
regarding Vortigern. Although this seems like an insatiable quest for
knowledge, do you happen to know:
- whether Vortimer was Vortigern's son by Rowena or by a different woman?
- whether Vortimer had siblings or descendants
- the fate of Faustus, the product of Vortigern's illicit union with his
daughter?
I must say that was fascinating. I had no idea that Vortigern was
possessed by the devil! I do notice, however, that Kent reverted to
Rowena's brother Oisc (Oeric/Aesc) d. 512 who became King of Kent upon
the death of Hengest.
Michelle
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Michelle Murphy | Junior Sophister | "New dreams, new dreams;
BESS Trinity College Dublin | there is no truth
E-Mail: mmu...@alf2.tcd.ie | ...No learning from the starry men
http://www3.tcd.ie:80/~mmurphy | ...Go gather by the humming sea"
Secretary of TCD Science-Fiction Soc| - W.B. Yeats 1889
|
"Where do I go in my last ecstasy?" - "Leave" (R.E.M.)
YOU'RE COMING ON TO SOMETHING SO FAST SO NUMB THAT YOU CAN'T EVEN FEEL
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CARRIED AWAY
I apologise in advance if any of my queries are beyond the scope of this
list, but in tracing the lineage of early medieval Saxon kings, I have
come up with several queries:
1) Can anyone enlighten me as to possible forbears of Priam, High King of
Troy, father of Troan (a daughter) who married Munon and was the mother
of Thor? This descent comes from the Icelandic prose Edda.
2) Is there information available on the family of Vortigern King of
Britons, who married Rowena, daughter of Hengest King of Kent (d. AD 488)?
3) Is there any historical verification for the claim that Redburga, wife
of king Ecgbert III of Wessex, was a sister of Charlemagne, King of
Franks? Redburga was the mother of (among others) Aethelwulf King of
England b. c. AD 800.
4) It appears from my data that Princess Judith of France (b. c. 844),
daughter of King Charles the Bald (b.823) and his wife Ermentrude of Orleans,
married first Aethelwulf King of England (see above) on 1st Oct
856, and then after his death in 858, married his son (by a previous
wife, Osburga) Aethelbald King of England (annulled 860) . She married thirdly
Baldwin I "Bras der Fer" Count of Flanders in 862, and had four
children. Is all of this true?
5) Were there any descendants of Aelfwyn Lady of Mercia (d. 12 June 918)
daughter of Ethelflaed Lady of Mercia (b. c. 869) daughter of Alfred the
Great, and her husband Aethelred II Ealdorman/Duke of Mercia? Aelfwyn
married a West Saxon nobleman.
6) Finally, the marriages of Edward the Elder confuse me. He lived from
869 to July 924. By his first wife, Ecgwyn (d. c. 901) he had three
children, one of whom was born in 894. By his second wife, Aelflaeda of
Wiltshire (d.920) he had ten children, one of whom was born in 902. And
by his third wife Eadgifu of Kent (b. before 905, d. 25 August 968), whom he
married c. 905, he had five children, two of whom were born in 921 and 924.
Could he have married Eadgifu while Aelflaeda was still alive, did he
divorce Aelflaeda, or are the dates above incorrect?
I would be very grateful for information and comments on the above queries.
Regards,
Michelle Murphy
Stewart Baldwin
CARRIED AWAY <mmu...@TCD.IE> wrote:
>I apologise in advance if any of my queries are beyond the scope of this
>list, but in tracing the lineage of early medieval Saxon kings, I have
>come up with several queries:
>1) Can anyone enlighten me as to possible forbears of Priam, High King of
>Troy, father of Troan (a daughter) who married Munon and was the mother
>of Thor? This descent comes from the Icelandic prose Edda.
An encyclopedia on Classical Mythology would give "ancestors" for the
legendary Priam, but you should realize that the information would
have nothing to do with real genealogy, as Troan, Munon, and Thor
never existed. This genealogy from the Edda is completely ficticious,
invented more than two thousand years after the time that Priam
supposedly lived. As discussed in this newsgroup on several occasions
before, the "official" West Saxon genealogy is a fabrication prior to
Cerdic.
>2) Is there information available on the family of Vortigern King of
>Britons, who married Rowena, daughter of Hengest King of Kent (d. AD 488)?
Rowena never existed. She is an invention of later writers. The
existence of Hengist is questionable at best. Of these individuals,
Vortigern is the only one who is clearly historical. There are number
of Welsh pedigrees which give claims of descent from Vortigern, but
none are contemporary. Since Vortigern was the earliest post-Roman
British leader who was mentioned in the early sources, he became a
natural ancestor to claim, true or not.
>3) Is there any historical verification for the claim that Redburga, wife
>of king Ecgbert III of Wessex, was a sister of Charlemagne, King of
>Franks? Redburga was the mother of (among others) Aethelwulf King of
>England b. c. AD 800.
Ecgbert was the only king of Wessex of that name, and should not have
a "III" after his name. He was certainly not married to a sister of
Charlemagne. I have never seen the name of his wife documented in any
good source.
>4) It appears from my data that Princess Judith of France (b. c. 844),
>daughter of King Charles the Bald (b.823) and his wife Ermentrude of Orleans,
> married first Aethelwulf King of England (see above) on 1st Oct
>856, and then after his death in 858, married his son (by a previous
>wife, Osburga) Aethelbald King of England (annulled 860) . She married thirdly
>Baldwin I "Bras der Fer" Count of Flanders in 862, and had four
>children. Is all of this true?
I'm not sure about the annullment (Aethelbald died in 860), and I know
of only two children of Judith (Baldwin II and Rudolf). The rest is
true.
>5) Were there any descendants of Aelfwyn Lady of Mercia (d. 12 June 918)
>daughter of Ethelflaed Lady of Mercia (b. c. 869) daughter of Alfred the
>Great, and her husband Aethelred II Ealdorman/Duke of Mercia? Aelfwyn
>married a West Saxon nobleman.
It is virtually certain that there were no descendants. Edward the
Elder made sure of that, as he did not want a powerful rival dynasty
out there.
[snip]
Stewart Baldwin
cben...@adnc.com
In article <5dnrgb$ms$1...@news.campus.mci.net>,
sb...@auburn.campus.mci.net (Stewart Baldwin) wrote:
>
> CARRIED AWAY <mmu...@TCD.IE> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> >3) Is there any historical verification for the claim that Redburga, wife
> >of king Ecgbert III of Wessex, was a sister of Charlemagne, King of
> >Franks? Redburga was the mother of (among others) Aethelwulf King of
> >England b. c. AD 800.
>
> Ecgbert was the only king of Wessex of that name, and should not have
> a "III" after his name. He was certainly not married to a sister of
> Charlemagne. I have never seen the name of his wife documented in any
> good source.
>
> Stewart Baldwin
Further to this: I assume the "III" comes from his position as king of
Kent. Egbert's father Ealhmund is usually identified as the king of Kent
of that name. David Kelley has suggested that the introduction of the
previously-Kentish name Egbert into the Wessex dynasty at this time may
indicate a descent from the Kentish royal family. Its an interesting
idea, and if correct would give a possible Merovingian ancestry to the
later Wessex kings, but there's absolutely no proof that I know of.
However, Stewart is right -- Egbert should not be referred to as "Egbert
III".
There is no contemporary source for Egbert's wife. The name "Raedburh"
comse from a medieval manuscript quoted by W. G. Searle (Anglo-Saxon
Bishops, Kings and Nobles, London 1899, 343) as "MS Trin Coll Oxf x".
She is described there as "regis Francorum sororia" which can only be a
reference to Charlemagne; however there is no such sister known. Since
Egbert was certainly in exile at Charlemagne's court, it is perfectly
plausible that he married his wife there. If the tradition has any
value, then the best guess is that she was probably a sister-in-law, but
she could just as well have been a lady of the Court. Settipani (La
prehistoire des Capetiens, 308 n791) is willing to accept the name.
CHeers,
Chris
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Matthias E. Storme
>>4) It appears from my data that Princess Judith of France (b. c. 844),
ns,
>> married first Aethelwulf King of England (see above) on 1st Oct
>>856, and then after his death in 858, married his son (by a previous
>>wife, Osburga) Aethelbald King of England (annulled 860) . She married
>thirdly
>>Baldwin I "Bras der Fer" Count of Flanders in 862, and had four
>>children. Is all of this true?
>
>I'm not sure about the annullment (Aethelbald died in 860), and I know
>of only two children of Judith (Baldwin II and Rudolf). The rest is
>true.
Which two others do you have ?
Turton mentopns also WIDINHILDE, married to Guifer Count of Barcelona, + 906
Saillot further mentions Bertha, =B0 ca 893, + 967, married to Isaac, count
of Cambrai 916-940, + 941
--
prof. Matthias E. Storme
Matthia...@rug.ac.be
frw.st...@ufsia.ac.be
fax +32-9-2362440
http://www.ufsia.ac.be/~estorme/index.html
recht : http://www.ufsia.ac.be/~estorme/legal.html
genealogie : http://www.ufsia.ac.be/~estorme/genealogy.html
spelling : http://www.ufsia.ac.be/~estorme/spelling.html
verbond van vlaamse academici : http://www.ufsia.ac.be/~estorme/vva.html
opiniepagina "diskriminatie" : http://www.ufsia.ac.be/~estorme/discrim.html
Bar Roo 45
I found your question and answer section interesting.
I am trying to understand the origin of a few of my ancestors surnames.
Firstly, the name Warrington! Is this just a place name in England?
Secondly, the name Flounders, I have not found ANY information on the
origin of this name.
Thirdly, where could I find information on Admiral Robert Blake who lived
1599-1657?
Can you trust these different Irish and Saxon geneologies that are found
on the net? Please e-mail.
Thank you,
BarR...@aol.com
Todd A. Farmerie
Matthias E. Storme wrote:
>
> >I'm not sure about the annullment (Aethelbald died in 860), and I know
> >of only two children of Judith (Baldwin II and Rudolf). The rest is
> >true.
>
> Which two others do you have ?
>
> Turton mentopns also WIDINHILDE, married to Guifer Count of Barcelona, + 906
That Winidilde was daughter of Baldwin is disproven by a contemporary
document in which she names her father as a Sunifred.
taf