Lacy of Cromwellbotham and Rishworth of Coley Hall

[Steve Riggan]

Dear Newsgroup:
Several months ago, I put out a query to the group on the Lacys of Cromwellbotham in Yorkshire and a link to the Rishworth family of Coley Hall. It seems I may have found the information I was looking for but would feel better about this having the more experienced expertise of our group on this.
John Lacy of Cromwellbotham,d. after 7 June 1474 and was buried in Halifax, Yorkshire. I am already descended from his son Gilbert Lacy, Lord of Midgley who married Johanna Sotehill who were ancestral to William Farrar of Virginia who was one of my immigrant ancestors. John Ravilious (Farrar descendant) has already done a superb job researching the the Lacy lineages and I have found some of his information posted.
John Lacy of Cromwellbotham, besides his sons, also mentioned John Rysshworth and his wife and children in his will to share equally 11 shillings, Percival Amyas, wife and children to share 5 marcs, Nicholas Savyll (Savile) and his wife and children to share 10 pounds. Also mentioned were Brian Thornhill and wife as well as their son John Thornhill but I can't figure the connection as of yet. The Thornhills were ancestral to Agnes Savile, wife of John Lacy's great-grandson Hugh Lacy of Brearley in my Farrar line. The will of John Lacy can be read in its entirety from this submission: http://www.rockcreekexperiment.com/b3873.htm John Ravilious had a post on sgm 7 Aug. 2007 on the Lacy line and he has unknown Lacy daughter and husband John Rishworth as well as John Lacy's daughters Agnes, wife of Percival Amyas, and Joan, wife of Nicholas Savile of the Bank in Southowram. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/ozYoxKgwTOs
Gilbert Lacy, son of John Lacy of Cromwellbotham, was the father of seven children. His eldest Gerard was heir to the manor. Gilbert was dead before Oct. 1492 when his will was proved. Gerard was ancestral to William Farrar of Virginia. Gilbert's son Christopher Lacy went to London and was an ancestor of Elizabeth, the Queen Mother. "On 3 Jun 1504, Percival Amyas, John Rishworth, esq., and Thomas Savile of Southowram, gent., granted to Christopher Lacy, son of Gilbert Lacy, a moiety of a messuage, lands and tenements, etc., in the village and territory of Southowram, which they lately had of the grant and foeffment of Gilbert Lacy." http://www.rockcreekexperiment.com/b3872.htm#P11245
I haven't researched yet, but I assume Thomas Savile, gent. was the son of Nicholas Savile and Joan Lacy. In order for John Rishworth, Percival Amyas, and Thomas Savile to grant moiety, wouldn't they have to be members or husbands acting on the part of wives who were members of the family of John Lacy? I am not wholly proficient in medieval English legalities, so need some guidance here. If this is the case, then John Rishworth's wife, unknown name, must have truly been a daughter of John Lacy of Cromwellbotham as claimed by several researchers I have read online.
The Rishworths were the parents of John Rishworth of Coley, d. ca. 1533 = wife unknown. His daughter was Agnes Rishworth who married John Waterhouse of Shibden Hall, d. 1545, son of Robert Waterhouse and Sibyl Otes of Shibden Hall. Evidently, Gerard Lacy (my ancestor through my father) was involved in a dispute over claim to ownership of Shibden Hall but I'm not sure in what right he made this claim.
Agnes Rishworth and John Waterhouse were the parents of Agnes Waterhouse who married George Boithes (Boythes and Boothes in some records) of Boithes (Boothestown) Northowram, Halifax, Yorkshire, d. before 21 April 1569. He was on 29 JAN 1537 appointed as attorney for John Lacy lord of Cromwelbothom who I assume was the one who d. 1547 and was a great grandson of Richard Lacy who would have been the brother of Gilbert Lacy of Brearley (mine) and John Rishworth's unknown wife (George Boithes' wife's ancestors).
Does anyone have any other insights on John Lacy of Cromwellbotham and the relationships of his legatees in his will from 1478?

Best regards,
Steve Riggan

[Matt Tompkins]

On Monday, October 7, 2013 12:31:02 PM UTC+1, Steve Riggan wrote:
> Gilbert Lacy, son of John Lacy of Cromwellbotham, was the father of seven children. His eldest Gerard was heir to the manor. Gilbert was dead before Oct. 1492 when his will was proved. Gerard was ancestral to William Farrar of Virginia. Gilbert's son Christopher Lacy went to London and was an ancestor of Elizabeth, the Queen Mother. "On 3 Jun 1504, Percival Amyas, John Rishworth, esq., and Thomas Savile of Southowram, gent., granted to Christopher Lacy, son of Gilbert Lacy, a moiety of a messuage, lands and tenements, etc., in the village and territory of Southowram, which they lately had of the grant and foeffment of Gilbert Lacy." http://www.rockcreekexperiment.com/b3872.htm#P11245
>
> I haven't researched yet, but I assume Thomas Savile, gent. was the son of Nicholas Savile and Joan Lacy. In order for John Rishworth, Percival Amyas, and Thomas Savile to grant moiety, wouldn't they have to be members or husbands acting on the part of wives who were members of the family of John Lacy? I am not wholly proficient in medieval English legalities, so need some guidance here. If this is the case, then John Rishworth's wife, unknown name, must have truly been a daughter of John Lacy of Cromwellbotham as claimed by several researchers I have read online.
>

Steve, it rather looks as though Rishworth, Amyas and Savile were feoffees to uses, that is trustees. Gilbert Lacy would have transferred his property to them to hold to his use (ie on trust for him), and then later instructed them to transfer Southowram to his son.

Feoffees might be relations of the feoffor, but often were not.

Matt Tompkins

[Vance Mead]

I just came across a Lacy of Cromwelbothom in Common Pleas:

Hilary Term 1512, fronts, image 511
Yorks. Robert Warde, mayor of Pountfret versus John Lacy, of Cromwelbothom, esq. Debt of 10 pounds.

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/H8/CP40no998/aCP40no998fronts/IMG_0511.htm


Vance Mead

[Vance Mead]

Here's a Common Pleas entry involving John Lacy and his executors. Hilary term, 1483


Yorks. John Lacy, of Cromwel Botham, esq, executors of; (Richard Lacy, son of Testator; Gilbert Lacy, son of Testator; and Percival Amyas) versus Robert Metham, of Melsane, gent. Debt

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/E4/CP40no883/aCP40no883fronts/IMG_0163.htm

[Steve Riggan]

Thank you, Vance, for the links to these documents. Unfortunately, I cannot read this old medieval script. Are there transcriptions of these available?
Also, I found the transcription of John Lacy of Cromwellbotham's will, signed 5 April 1474. His actual death date was recorded at Post Mortem which I haven't seen but the date of death is recorded below. You mentioned the trustees, but this will looks like all these families listed were part of the Lacy family and John Ravilious seemed to think so too when he made a post in 2007 regarding the family. Percival Amyas, Nicholas Savile, and John Rishworth, wives and children were all included which made me think they were his offspring but I don't know with new research if that has changed. I have seen nothing to contradict John's findings from then. Hopefully, he will see this post and be able to comment on it.
Here is the will:
"Apr. 5, 1474. John Lacy of Cromwelbothum. To be buried in the parish church of Halyfax. My best beast to the Vicar of the said church for a mortuary. Two shillings for wax candles to be burned round my body on the ay of my burial. To every chaplain present at my funeral and mass 12 pennies. To the two parish clerks 12 pennies. To every minor clerk two pennies. To the said church for 2 torches to be burned about my body on the said day 6 shillings 8 pennies. To 4 poor men carrying lights about my body at the time of my funeral and mass on the said day 4 pennies each. to the light of the cross of the said church 12 pennies. To the light of the B.B. Mary 12 pennies. To every other light of the said church 6 pennies. To the fabric of the bell-tower 5 marcs. All my funeral expenses on the day of my burial, as well in the church as in the town, to be paid out of my own goods. To the fabric of the Church of

Rothwell 6 shillings 8 pence. To the lights of the Church of Methlay 6 shillings 8 pence. I give for the exhibition of one priest in Eland Church 8 shilling. To the town of Mythlay for a peerpetual exhibition for one priest 10 shillings. And for the making of a chalice there 3 shillings 4 pence. To Elizabeth Flyntill 10 marcs for her marriage. To Johan Lacy, daughter of Gilbert Lacy, for her marriage 10 marks. To John Lacy, son of Richard Lacy, 11 shillings. To George Kay 11 shillings To George Lacy 11 shillings. To every one of the issue of my sons and daughters a buculum worth 3 shillings 4 pence, or 3 shiilings 4 pence in money. To edmund Tailyour my servant 20 shillings. to Rich Coltman 13 shillings 4 pence. To Marion Hawkyerd 20 shillings and a bed sufficinter ornatum. To Roger Fourth of Methlay a oung ox worth 10 shillings or more. To Eyote his wife a heifer worth 9 shillings or more. To Rich, their son a black Tunic of Worsett. To Agnes Meer a russet gown reaching to the ankles ('togam russetam talarem'). To John Fourth a short russet gown. To the said Roger and his wife all my bedding (lectualia) with the clothes (pannis) thereto belonging. To my said son Richard 20 marcs. To Nicholas Savyll and his wife, sons and daughters 10 pounds to be equally among them. To Ralph Bukley for his faithful service 26 shillings 8 pence. To Persevel Amyas, his wife, sons and daughters, 5 marcs to be equally divided amongst them. To Gilbert Lacy, his wife, sons and daughters, 5 mards to be equally divided amontst them. To John Rysshworth, his wife, sons and daughters, 11 shillings to be divided amongst them. To Brian Thornhill and his wife 11 shillings. To John Thornhill son of the said Brian 11 shillings. To the order of Friars Preachers of Pontefract while I hold the close at Methelay yearly a fat bullock worth 13 shillings 4 pence 6 marcs yearly. For the exhibition of a priest in the parish church of Halyfax, to celeberate for my soul, the souls ofmy wives, and for the souls of those whose goods I have justly or unjustly had, and for the souls of all the faithful departed for 10 years, and longer f my goods should suffice. For a yearly obit to be had for me and my wives 6 shillings 8 pence as my executors shall receive it from William Wode and his executors for the rent of a certain close called Pokokecroft. Residue to Richard Lacy and Gilbert Lacy my sons. Persevell Amyas and John Rysshworth aforesaid, whom I appint executors, to dispose thereof for me and mine as shall seem best to them. Witnesses: Robert Ecclesay, Robert Peke, and Cominus Thomas Aglesthorp." Proved 7 Jun 1474 - from Clay: Halifax Wils, p 18. He died on 6 May 1474.

Regards,
Steve Riggan









> Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 10:32:02 -0700
> Subject: Re: Lacy of Cromwellbotham and Rishworth of Coley Hall
> From: vance...@yahoo.com
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com

>
> Here's a Common Pleas entry involving John Lacy and his executors. Hilary term, 1483
>
>
> Yorks. John Lacy, of Cromwel Botham, esq, executors of; (Richard Lacy, son of Testator; Gilbert Lacy, son of Testator; and Percival Amyas) versus Robert Metham, of Melsane, gent. Debt
>
> http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/E4/CP40no883/aCP40no883fronts/IMG_0163.htm
>

> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[Vance Mead]

Something like this:

Yorks. Richard Lacy, son of John Lacy, of Cromwelbothom, esq, Gilbert Lacy, son of John Lacy, of Cromwelbothom, esq, and Percival Amyas, executors of John Lacy, of Cromwelbothom, esq, per their attorney versus Robert Metham, of Melsane, in the aforesaid county, gent, on a plea that he pay them 14 marks that he owes them. He did not appear and the sheriff was ordered to distrain him for his chattels to the value of 3 shillings 4 pence. He is bailed by Richard Fell, Edmund Louth, Thomas Smyth amd Ralph Bour. The sheriff ordered to distrain the aforesaid Robert and bring him here on the 15th day of Easter term.

[Ian Goddard]

Steve Riggan wrote:

> %>< You mentioned the trustees, but this will looks like all these families listed were part of the Lacy family

Possibly some of the individuals named were his godchildren.

--
Ian

The Hotmail address is my spam-bin. Real mail address is iang
at austonley org uk

[Matt Tompkins]

On Tuesday, October 8, 2013 12:53:45 AM UTC+1, Steve Riggan wrote:
> Thank you, Vance, for the links to these documents. Unfortunately, I cannot read this old medieval script. Are there transcriptions of these available?
>
> Also, I found the transcription of John Lacy of Cromwellbotham's will, signed 5 April 1474. His actual death date was recorded at Post Mortem which I haven't seen but the date of death is recorded below. You mentioned the trustees, but this will looks like all these families listed were part of the Lacy family and John Ravilious seemed to think so too when he made a post in 2007 regarding the family. Percival Amyas, Nicholas Savile, and John Rishworth, wives and children were all included which made me think they were his offspring but I don't know with new research if that has changed. I have seen nothing to contradict John's findings from then.
>

Being feoffees and being related to the feoffor are not mutually exclusive - Amyas, Saville and Rishworth could well have been both (the will does seem to point to a close connection). But because feoffees were frequently not closely related to the feoffor the involvement of Amyas, Saville and Rishworth in the 1504 grant does not mean they must have been close relations of Gilbert Lacy. They could well have been, but the grant does not prove it.

Matt Tompkins

[Peter Cockerill]

Steve for the record Robert Peke witness to John Lacy's Will is probably grandson of John Lacy via John Peke who married Isabel dau. of John Lacy. Peter

[lisawil...@gmail.com]

Hi Steve, drop me an email at lisawil...@gmail.com.
I have extensive research on the early Rishworth family and related families.

regards
Lisa Wilson
nee Rishworth

[lt14...@gmail.com]

Have you guys ever heard the name Robin or Robert Taylor connected to any of this mess