Roeulx Records
Douglas Richardson
In an attempt to discover the origins of Sir Pain de Ruet (Roet,
Roelt), father of Duchess Katherine de Ruet, I've decided to start
posting contemporary records of this family as I find them.
The first record concerns Rigaus de Rouelx and is dated 1296. It
comes from the book, Noblesse, chevalerie, lignages, by Léo Verriest,
which work was published in 1960. Needless to say, the item is in
French.
The snippet view of the record can be found at the following weblink:
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
I've posted below the second item pertaining to the origin and history
of the Ruet/Roet/Roelt family. This item is taken from an English
language version of the Chronicles of Jean Froissart, translated by
Geoffrey Brereton, published in 1978. The item in full may be viewed
at the following weblink:
The portion which concerns us directly reads as follows:
"Around that time the Duke of Lancaster entered into a third marriage
with a lady who had been the daughter of a knight of Hainault called
Sir Paon de Ruet, in his day one of the knights of good Queen Philippa
of Hainault, who had loved the Hainaulters because she was of their
nation. This lady, whom the Duke of Lancaster now married, was called
Catherine; in her youth she had been placed in the household of the
Duke and Duchess Blanche of Lancaster."
Once again, we see Hainault as the place of origin of Duchess
Katherine de Roet's family. The chronicler, Jean Froissart (c. 1337-c.
1410), was a contemporary of John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster, and his
wife, Katherine de Roet.
Peter Stewart
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1171247605.0...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
But what we do NOT see is a record that can be tied to the Roeulx family.
Unless you are hoping to elicit comment on every item you may post in this
thread, presumably to help you make head or tail of these when you can't
find translations, while at the same time exposing your astonishing
ignorance and vapid methodology, you are wasting your own time along with
SGM readers' patience.
Why not start by establishing that the "Ruet/Roet/Roelt" family and the
Roeulx family were indeed one & the same, before examining records of
individuals from the 14th century, at first, rather than passing mentions of
people from the 13th?
Or even more sensibly, instead of trying to reinvent the Katherine wheel,
why not simply consult the current scholarship on this point to see if there
is any reasonable hope of finding printed evidence that conclusively links
the much-studied duchess whose father was surnamed Roelt to the
much-studied family Roeulx?
What you don't know isn't just for that reason unknown to everyone, it might
be just waiting for you to learn - by your own efforts, and rational means.
Peter Stewart
Douglas Richardson
The following weblink contains a reference to a certain Huon de Roet
who is cited in a charter dated 1322 at Valenciennes.
The author supposes that Huon de Roet is correct name of Sir Pain (or
Paonnet) de Roet (or Ruet), who was named by Froissart as the father
of Duchess Katherine de Roet, wife of John of Gaunt. I disagree.
pierre...@hotmail.fr
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> In an attempt to discover the origins of Sir Pain de Ruet (Roet,
> Roelt), father of Duchess Katherine de Ruet, I've decided to start
> posting contemporary records of this family as I find them.
>
> The first record concerns Rigaus de Rouelx and is dated 1296.
You are not even able to copy correctly: in the summary of document
you quoted, that man is not called "Rigaus de Rouelx" but "Rigaus du
Roeulx". "Du" and "de" are not exactly the same thing, whatever can
tell your translating machines.
What is it suppose to prove anyway?
> It
> comes from the book, Noblesse, chevalerie, lignages, by Léo Verriest,
> which work was published in 1960. Needless to say, the item is in
> French.
And so needless to say you did not understand it.
> The snippet view of the record can be found at the following weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC00911551&id=sTcCtCiWCP8C&q=Roeu...
Peter Stewart
> no sense to you. Investigative research is clearly well over your
> head, mon ami.
What exactly would be "non-investigative" research?
Is that what you are doing, by any chance?
Peter Stewart
DaHoorn
Katheryn_Swynford View profile
More options Oct 23 2005, 8:25 am
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
From: "Katheryn_Swynford"
Date: 23 Oct 2005 09:25:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Fall of the House of Roeulx?? (LONG!)
Dear Douglas,
Thank you for your comments! Yes, I was aware that the Lords of
Roeulx
did not bear wheels but instead the lions reminiscent of the counts
of
Hainault from which they are said to have descended. Indeed, I made
the point in my FMG article, citing the rolls of Wijnbergen (sp?) and
du Gelre, among others IIRC. Rietstrap, unfortunately, gives wheels
for Roet/Roeulx or some such spelling.
As for why I am concentrating on Roeulx instead of Resteau (which I
think is dit Resteau?) is to examine Lindsay Brook's theory (per his
article in FMG Foundations) that Payne Roet = Gilles du Roeulx.
Over the years, I've bounced back and forth on the issue, landing
mostly on the side that the Payne Roet family was not related to du
Roeulx. But I recently went back and re-read (to the extent that I
can!) some of the information in the Cartulaire of the Counts of
Hainault (sorry, can't remember where the du's and de's go exactly).
I
was wondering if the Isabel/Elizabeth named a chanoinness of St.
Wadru,
Mons, was perhaps an aunt rather than a daughter of Payne (she would
have had to have been born not later than the mid-1330s whereas
Katherine and Philippa were of course presumably born much later).
Or,
perhaps, this was yet another conjectural connection and Payne wasn't
mentioned at all.
Here's what the Cartulaire says about Elizabeth:
"nobili adolescentule Elizabet dicte dou Ruet domini Egidii dicti
Paonet de Ruet filie" (this is from the letters in which the Empress
Margaret grants Elizabeth the prebende of the chapter of St. Waudru,
Mons, in 1349 (Cartulaire... Vol. I, p. 321).
So, this Elizabeth is expressely called Paon's daughter. But the
"Egidii dicti Paonet de Ruet" had me going for a while... until I
found
out that the English or common name of Egidii is "Giles" (several
religious websites). So what we have is Giles _called_ Paonet de
Ruet.
When Elizabeth dies there in 1369, Albert, Duke of Gavaria, gives
Elizabeth's spot to a "Jeanne d'Ecaussines". (Vol. II, p. 157). This
is interesting because, in general, near as I can tell, chanoinneses
of
St. Waudru, Mons, were largely noble ladies -- others were from the
families of Gavre, Robessart, Ecaussines, Lalaing, Sars, etc. Ladies
seemed to enter there either to pursue a comfortable life of religion
(they were not required to give up their possessions) or as a sort of
finishing school (some left to marry). There also seems to be a weak
correspondence with families whose members served as high bailiffs of
Hainault (Rings archaeological of Mons, T.20 -- note that I've not
actually seen this article, only its reference, as this periodical
seems unavailable in the US per my university's interlibrary loan
efforts).
The second interesting thing about the Ecaussines nomination is that
Roeulx and Ecaussines intermarried at some point, and that a Jeanne,
"Lady of Ecaussines", daughter of a Gilles du Roeulx (ibid), married
Simon LaLaing (d. 1386), a two-time high bailiff of Hainault. In
1414,
the position of chanoinness of St. Waudru is granted to a Jacqueline,
daughter of the Lord of Lalaing.
Not anything really conclusive, but intriguing, and, to me at least,
leaning/pointing in the direction of a du Roeulx connection.
Thoughts?