Edwin, Prince of Tegeingl
Brice Clagett
Bartrum and DWB either were ignorant of, or discredited, a much older article by H.F.J. Vaughan, "Chief of the Noble Tribes of Gwynedd," in Archaeologia Cambrensis, 5th Series vol. 8, pp. 241, 252-58, which makes a powerful case that Edwin of Tegeingl was the same person as Edwin, Earl of Mercia, son of Aelfgar, Earl of Mercia, and grandson of Leofric, Earl of Mercia, and his wife, Godgifu (Lady Godiva). Earl Edwin -- whose sister Aldgyth (Edith) married (1) Gruffydd ap Llewellyn, King of Wales; (2) Harold II, King of England --, with is brother Morcar, Earl of Northumbria, led the resistance to William the Conqueror after 1068; Edwin was killed in 1071. Tegeingl, comprising the commotes of Rhuddlan, Coleshill and Prestatin, in Flintshire, was mostly part of Mercia from the 9th to the 11th century. If Vaughan is right, Edwin left descendants in his Welsh territories among whom the memory of their Mercian ancestry became confused, being shifted from the paternal side.
The only generally accepted descendants from Lady Godiva come through Edith's marriage to Gruffydd ap Llewellyn. If Vaughan's theory is right -- and, again, his case seems a strong one -- there are many more through Edwin.
According to The Plantagenet Connection, Oct. 1998 page 122, Earl Leofric was 4th in descent from Alfred the Great. I don't know whether that is supported by good proof or not.
Don Stone
>
> Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies treats Edwin, Prince of Tegeingl (Englefield) in the
modern Flintshire, Wales, as the founder of one of the Welsh tribes, and calls him
son of one Gronwy ab Einion and fourth in descent in the male line from Hywel Dda,
King of Wales. Edwin's obviously Saxon name has been explained by the claim that
his mother was Ethelfleda, daughter of "Edwin, King of Mercia" (Dictionary of Welsh
Biography, p.201; but no such King Edwin existed.
>
> Bartrum and DWB either were ignorant of, or discredited, a much older article by
H.F.J. Vaughan, "Chief of the Noble Tribes of Gwynedd," in Archaeologia Cambrensis,
5th Series vol. 8, pp. 241, 252-58, which makes a powerful case that Edwin of
Tegeingl was the same person as Edwin, Earl of Mercia, son of Aelfgar, Earl of
Mercia, and grandson of Leofric, Earl of Mercia, and his wife, Godgifu (Lady
Godiva). Earl Edwin -- whose sister Aldgyth (Edith) married (1) Gruffydd ap
Llewellyn, King of Wales; (2) Harold II, King of England --, with is brother Morcar,
Earl of Northumbria, led the resistance to William the Conqueror after 1068; Edwin
was killed in 1071. Tegeingl, comprising the commotes of Rhuddlan, Coleshill and
Prestatin, in Flintshire, was mostly part of Mercia from the 9th to the 11th
century. If Vaughan is right, Edwin left descendants in his Welsh territories among
whom the memory of their Mercian ancestry became confused, being shifted from the
paternal side.
Brice:
This issue has been discussed here before, though you may be adding new information.
The previous discussions can be retrieved by a search of the archives via the
Power Search at http://www.deja.com or via the search engine at
http://searches.rootsweb.com/gen-medieval.html. Use the keywords Edwin and Tegeingl
or Mercia, for example. Some samples from the earlier discussions are appended.
-- Don Stone
> Subject: Re: Angharad ferch Owain ap Edwin
> Date:1998/10/20
> Author: Stewart Baldwin <sb...@auburn.campus.mci.net>
> gee...@sure.net (Gee Gee Hughes) wrote:
>
> >R. R. Davies' "The Age of Conquest" lists the following descent from Owain
> >ap Hywel Dda to Owen ap Edwin.
>
> >Was Angharad, (wife of Gruffydd ap Cynan, king of Gwynedd) the daughter of
> >this Owen ap Edwin?
>
> No. Angharad was the daughter of a different Owain ab Edwin, who died in the
> year 1104 (Annales Cambriae). His father Edwin of Tegeingl is given quite a few
> different pedigrees in the Welsh genealogical
> manuscripts, none of which has any early authority, and the parentage of Edwin
> of Tegeingl is generally regarded as uncertain. (One theory [See "Edwin of
> Tegeingl" by David H. Kelley in TAG 46 (1070), 75-80] even suggests that Edwin
> of Tegeingl was the same man as Edwin of Mercia, but I find the argument
> quite unconvincing.)
>
> >Owain ap Hywel Dda d. 988
> > |
> >Einion d. 984
> > |
> >Edwin
> > |
> >Owain ap Edwin
>
> For an excellent account of the prominent Welshmen of the eleventh century,
> see "Ireland, Wales, and England in the Eleventh Century" by K. L. Maund (The
> Boydell Press, Woodbridge, Suffolk, 1991) [a somewhat misleading title, since
> the book is primarily about Wales]. It is by far the most complete
> prosopographical treatment of eleventh century Wales, and is a great help in
> sorting out all of those Welsh leaders of the period who seemed to use the same
> names over and over again.
[snip]
> Stewart Baldwin
> Subject: Re: Llywelyn ap Iorwerth ancestor table, gen. 1-8
> Date: 1997/08/26
> Author: William Addams Reitwiesner <wr...@127.0.0.1>
> sb...@auburn.campus.mci.net (Stewart Baldwin) wrote:
>
> >"Suzanne Doig" <smd49@csc.*canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> >
> >>Stewart Baldwin wrote:
> >>> 18. Owain ab Edwin, d. 1104 [AC.b 1104: "Owinus filius
> >>> Edwinus obiit."], Welsh chieftan in Tegeingl. [ABT.2]
> >>>
> >>> 19. Morwyl ferch Ednywain Bendew? [ABT.2] [Note: She was
> >>> the mother of Owain's son Gronwy, but it is not clear from
> >>> the sources available to me whether or not any early source
> >>> makes her mother of Angharad.]
> >>>
> >>> 36. Edwin ap Gronwy [Note: BWG cites PP.36(1), and I do not
> >>> know the primary source for the name of Edwin's father, so I
> >>> consider his ancestry tentative, until I see more regarding
> >>> the sources.]
> >>>
> >>> 37. Iwerydd ferch Cynfyn. [ByT.1113-1116]
> >
> >>The royal genealogical database at Hull
> >>(http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/public/genealogy/royal/catalog.html)
> >>gives a different line here, with Edwin of Mercia (son of Aelfgar of
> >>Mercia) as father of Owain ab Edwin and a line from there back through the
> >>Earls of Mercia to Leofwine and Godgifu, etc. It also has Owain ab Edwin
> >>married to a daughter of Cynfyn ap Gwerystan.
> >
> >>Would Stewart or anyone else care to comment on sources and/or relative
> >>merits for these two different lines?
> >
> >The early sources have Edwin (and not his son Owain) marrying a
> >daughter of Cynfyn. As for Edwin supposedly being the same as Edwin
> >of Mercia, I am very dubious about that, and it would be nice to know
> >what evidence this is based on In addition, the Hull database
> >includes a significant number of pseudohistorical genealogies, which
> >indicates that some of the sources used for the database are of very
> >low quality. I consider the traditional Welsh descent of Owain ap
> >Edwin to be more probable than this supposed Mercian connection, and I
> >will need to see more evidence before I am inclined to change my
> >table.
>
> The easiest place to find a discussion of the identity of Edwin of Tegeingl with
> Edwin of Mercia (I, too, don't accept it) is in *Studies in Genealogy and Family
> History in Tribute to Charles Evans on the Occasion of his Eightieth Birthday*,
> Occasional Publication No. 2 of the Association for the Promotion of Scholarship
> in Genealogy, 1989, in the article "The House of Aethelred" (pp. 63-93) by David
> H. Kelley. Check the paragraphs towards the bottom of p. 87 and the sources
> cited in notes 108-110. If Kelley's claim is accurate, then several surviving
> families (e.g., Griffith of Garn) are patrilineally descended from an older
> brother of King Alfred.
>
> William Addams Reitwiesner
> wr...@erols.com
> Subject: Re: Llywelyn ap Iorwerth ancestor table, gen. 1-8
> Date: 1997/08/26
> Author: Todd A. Farmerie <ta...@po.cwru.edu>
> Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
> >
> > In message <01bcb131$22d17f00$a4211fac@default>
> > "Suzanne Doig" <smd49@csc.*canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> >
> > > Stewart Baldwin wrote:
> > > > 18. Owain ab Edwin, d. 1104 [AC.b 1104: "Owinus filius
> > > > Edwinus obiit."], Welsh chieftan in Tegeingl. [ABT.2]
> > > >
> > > > 19. Morwyl ferch Ednywain Bendew? [ABT.2] [Note: She was
> > > > the mother of Owain's son Gronwy, but it is not clear from
> > > > the sources available to me whether or not any early source
> > > > makes her mother of Angharad.]
> > > >
> > > > 36. Edwin ap Gronwy [Note: BWG cites PP.36(1), and I do not
> > > > know the primary source for the name of Edwin's father, so I
> > > > consider his ancestry tentative, until I see more regarding
> > > > the sources.]
> > > >
> > > > 37. Iwerydd ferch Cynfyn. [ByT.1113-1116]
> > >
> > > The royal genealogical database at Hull
> > > (http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/public/genealogy/royal/catalog.html)
> > > gives a different line here, with Edwin of Mercia (son of Aelfgar of
> > > Mercia) as father of Owain ab Edwin and a line from there back through the
> > > Earls of Mercia to Leofwine and Godgifu, etc. It also has Owain ab Edwin
> > > married to a daughter of Cynfyn ap Gwerystan.
> > >
> > > Would Stewart or anyone else care to comment on sources and/or relative
> > > merits for these two different lines?
>
> Stewart's line is the traditional descent of the Welsh pedigrees. This ties the
> descent of Edwin back into the royal family of Gwynedd, but the details vary,
> and it is likely that the whole this is invented. The version in the Hull data-
> base was suggested in the last century by Lloyd (I think it was) and recently
> mentioned in a TAG article by David Kelley (he also mentions it in his recent
> account of the descendants of Aethelred I). He builds his argument from the
> following points, 1) that Edwin of Mercia is said to have fled to Wales, 2) that
> Edwin of
> Tegeingl's Welsh pedigree appears to be forged, 3) that the two Edwin's are
> assigned the same death date (give or take a couple of years), 4) that the Welsh
> pedigrees appear to place two contemporary lords of the same manor of
> Tegaingl, Edwin and Ednywain, (suggesting confusion, possibly between
> claimants) 5) that the arms later assigned by heralds to the descendants of
> Edwin of Tegaingl are the same as those later assigned to the Anglo-Saxon
> royalty, from which Kelley derives Mercia, and 6) that were this the case, there
> would be a case of brother (Edwin) and sister (Eadgyth) marrying (half-)sister
> (Iwerydd) and (half-)brother (Gruffydd ap Llywelyn), a not uncommon pattern.
>
> While the Welsh pedigree appears faulty, I have not the expertise to evaluate the
> proposed Mercian link, and the rejection of one need not require to the
> acceptance of the other.
>
> taf
JKent...@aol.com
sba...@mindspring.com writes:
<< The only generally accepted descendants from Lady Godiva come through
>Edith's marriage to Gruffydd ap Llewellyn. >>
Is this supposed to be "THE" Lady Godiva, born about 1040, who rode in the
nude on her horse? Surely this dear Lady Godiva could not have a grandson
Earl Edwin who was killed in 1071.
Jno
KHF...@aol.com
<<According to The Plantagenet Connection, Oct. 1998 page 122, Earl Leofric
was 4th in descent from Alfred the Great. I don't know whether that is
supported by good proof or not. >>
In a message dated 6/22/1999 9:20:13 PM, sba...@mindspring.com writes:
<<It would be interesting to see the evidence on which this claim is
based. Stewart Baldwin>>
This is what I have.
1 Leofric III --Lord Coventry, Earl Mercia, Leicester. ®1 Born in 0975 in of
Mercia, England. Leofric III died in Bromley, Staffordshire, England on 31
Aug 1057; he was 82.
bef 1030 when Leofric III was 55, he married Godiva --Lady of Lincoln ®2.
They were divorced.
2 Leofwine --Earl Mercia, 5th Earl Leicester. Leofwine died abt 1032.
4 Edulf.
Edulf married Elfwina of Mercia ®3. They were divorced.
5 Elfwina of Mercia. ®3
8 Ordgar --Earl of Devon. ®3 Ordgar died in 0870.
10 Ethelred --Earl of Mercia. ®4 Ethelred died in 0912.
bef 0890 Ethelred married Ethelfleda --Princess of England ®5. They were
divorced.
11 Ethelfleda --Princess of England. ®5 Ethelfleda died on 15 Jun 0919.
16 Aelfgar I --Earl of Leicester.
20 Hugh the Great --Earl of Mercia. ®3 Hugh the Great died aft 0853.
22 Alfred the Great --King of England. ®6 Born in 0849 in Wantage, Berkshire,
England. Alfred the Great died in England on 25 Oct 0899; he was 50. Buried
in Hyde, Winchester, England.
In 0868 when Alfred the Great was 19, he married Ealhswith of Gainsborough
®7. They were divorced.
23 Ealhswith of Gainsborough. ®7 Born abt 0852 in Mercia, England. Ealhswith
of Gainsborough died in Winchester in 0904; she was 52. Buried in Hyde.
1. Royal Ancestors of Some American Families, by Michel L. Call, chart 11535.
2. Katherine Keats-Rohan, The Parentage of Countess Lucy Made Clear, The
Plantagenet Connection, October 1998
3. Faris, The Plantagenet Ancestry, 291:9
4. The Lineage and Ancestry of HRH Prince Charles, by Gerald Paget, Vol. 1,
p. 6.
5. The Lineage and Ancestry of HRH Prince Charles, by Gerald Paget, Vol. 1,
p. 6.
6. Ancestral Roots of 60 Colonists by F. L. Weis, p. 2.
7. Ancestral Roots of 60 Colonists by F. L. Weis, p. 2.
Index
Aelfgar I --Earl of Leicester 16
Alfred the Great --King of England 22
Ealhswith of Gainsborough 23
Edulf 4
Elfwina of Mercia 5
Ethelfleda --Princess of England 11
Ethelred --Earl of Mercia 10
Godiva --Lady of Lincoln spouse of 1
Hugh the Great --Earl of Mercia 20
Leofric III --Lord Coventry, Earl Mercia, Leicester 1
Leofwine --Earl Mercia, 5th Earl Leicester 2
Ordgar --Earl of Devon 8
-Ken
Stewart Baldwin
>Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies treats Edwin, Prince of Tegeingl
>(Englefield) in the modern Flintshire, Wales, as the founder of one
>of the Welsh tribes, and calls him son of one Gronwy ab Einion and
>fourth in descent in the male line from Hywel Dda, King of Wales.
>Edwin's obviously Saxon name has been explained by the claim that
>his mother was Ethelfleda, daughter of "Edwin, King of Mercia"
>(Dictionary of Welsh Biography, p.201; but no such King Edwin existed.
>
>Bartrum and DWB either were ignorant of, or discredited, a much older
>article by H.F.J. Vaughan, "Chief of the Noble Tribes of Gwynedd," in
>Archaeologia Cambrensis, 5th Series vol. 8, pp. 241, 252-58, which
>makes a powerful case that Edwin of Tegeingl was the same person as
>Edwin, Earl of Mercia, son of Aelfgar, Earl of Mercia, and grandson of
>Leofric, Earl of Mercia, and his wife, Godgifu (Lady Godiva). Earl
>Edwin -- whose sister Aldgyth (Edith) married (1) Gruffydd ap
>Llewellyn, King of Wales; (2) Harold II, King of England --, with is
>brother Morcar, Earl of Northumbria, led the resistance to William the
>Conqueror after 1068; Edwin was killed in 1071. Tegeingl, comprising
>the commotes of Rhuddlan, Coleshill and Prestatin, in Flintshire, was
>mostly part of Mercia from the 9th to the 11th century. If Vaughan is
>right, Edwin left descendants in his Welsh territories among whom the
>memory of their Mercian ancestry became confused, being shifted from
>the paternal side.
I have not seen Vaughan's article, and it has been many years since I
had easy access to "Archaeologia Cambrensis". However, I have seen
David Kelley's article "Edwin of Tegeingl", TAG 46 (1970), 75-80,
which mentions Vaughan's article, and I assume mentions all of the
arguments which Professor Kelley considered to be important. I reread
the article today, and still find it as unconvincing as I did when I
read it before. If Vaughan's article includes any important evidence
which was not in Kelley's article, perhaps you could outline it. My
objections to the argument run as follows:
1. The fact that the name "Edwin" already existed in the royal family
of Gwynedd by the late tenth century drastically weakens the supposed
onomastic evidence in favor of the identification. See, for example,
K. L. Maund, "Ireland, Wales, and England in the Eleventh Century"
(Boydell Press, 1991), especially pp. 14-25. In fact, note that the
version of the pedigree accepted by Bartrum would make Edwin of
Tegeingl a nephew of Edwin ab Einion (living in 992) of the royal
family of Gwynedd. While this alleged affiliation is itself based
only on late manuscripts of uncertain authority, and might be wrong,
the possibility that Bartrum's version is correct cannot be disproven
on known evidence, and is onomastically quite reasonable. (Of course,
there was probably an English marriage in there somewhere to explain
the appearance of the name Edwin in the royal family of Gwynedd, but
that probable marriage would have been back in the tenth century or
earlier, well before the time of Edwin of Tegeingl and Edwin of
Mercia.)
2. The onomastic evidence involving the name Uchtred is also
unconvincing. To my knowledge, no man of that name appears in the
family of Edwin of Mercia, so the fact that Edwin of Tegeingl had a
son of that name is not worth much. Certainly, it suggests some kind
of Saxon connections, but such connections could easily come through
the mother's side.
3. All of the other arguments in favor of the thesis which I have
seen also involve a significant amount of speculation, with no clear
support in primary sources.
>The only generally accepted descendants from Lady Godiva come through
>Edith's marriage to Gruffydd ap Llewellyn. If Vaughan's theory is
>right -- and, again, his case seems a strong one -- there are many
>more through Edwin.
I think we would need to see more evidence before we accept that. It
seems to me that the line through Bernard of Neufmarche is still the
only line of descent from Godiva that can be accepted with confidence.
>According to The Plantagenet Connection, Oct. 1998 page 122, Earl
>Leofric was 4th in descent from Alfred the Great. I don't know
>whether that is supported by good proof or not.
It would be interesting to see the evidence on which this claim is
based.
Stewart Baldwin
Rania Melhem
>Is this supposed to be "THE" Lady Godiva, born about 1040, who rode in the
>nude on her horse? Surely this dear Lady Godiva could not have a grandson
>Earl Edwin who was killed in 1071.
>
Actually, yes I think so.
Rania
William Addams Reitwiesner
>Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies treats Edwin, Prince of Tegeingl (Englefield)
>in the modern Flintshire, Wales, as the founder of one of the Welsh tribes,
>and calls him son of one Gronwy ab Einion and fourth in descent in the male
>line from Hywel Dda, King of Wales. Edwin's obviously Saxon name has been
>explained by the claim that his mother was Ethelfleda, daughter of "Edwin,
>King of Mercia" (Dictionary of Welsh Biography, p.201; but no such King
>Edwin existed.
>
>Bartrum and DWB either were ignorant of, or discredited, a much older
>article by H.F.J. Vaughan, "Chief of the Noble Tribes of Gwynedd," in
>Archaeologia Cambrensis, 5th Series vol. 8, pp. 241, 252-58, which makes
>a powerful case that Edwin of Tegeingl was the same person as Edwin, Earl
>of Mercia, son of Aelfgar, Earl of Mercia, and grandson of Leofric, Earl
>of Mercia, and his wife, Godgifu (Lady Godiva).
Bartrum's work has often been misunderstood. It was intended to be a
compilation of the Welsh genealogical manuscripts, and not much beyond
that. Bartrum says as much on page 2 of volume 1 of the "AD 300-1400"
series of his work (emphasis added by me):
"The Welsh genealogies in the following collection have been compiled
mainly from genealogical manuscripts in the National Library of Wales ...
Complete historical accuracy is not claimed for these tables, but it is
believed they give a tolerably complete account OF THE CONTENTS OF THESE
MANUSCRIPTS ... Additional information from printed sources ... has been
added WHEN IT HAS COME TO MY NOTICE ... IT IS BEYOND THE SCOPE OF THIS WORK
to look into such matters, which much be left to specialists in their
various fields."
In other words, if Bartrum has Edwin of Tegeingl arranged in a certain way,
it's because the Welsh genealogical manuscripts had him arranged in that
way. If it turns out that Edwin should not have been arranged in that way,
then that simply means that the Welsh genealogical manuscripts are
incorrect at that point.
By the way, Bartrum's sources for Edwin's ancestry are given in detail in
his article "Pedigrees of the Welsh tribal patriarchs", *Cylchgrawn
Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru* [The National Library of Wales Journal], XIII
[1963], pp. 93-146, at p. 113 and a discussion on pp. 134-135. The
earliest of the sources cited there for Edwin is the manuscript "Peniarth
129", which dates from about 1500 AD. And, yes, that has "Edwin ap Gronwy
ap Einion ap Ynwain ap Howel dda".
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."
JKent...@aol.com
tige...@aol.com writes:
How do you make the numbers work?
Jno
Todd A. Farmerie
> was 4th in descent from Alfred the Great. I don't know whether that is
> supported by good proof or not. >>
>
> based. Stewart Baldwin>>
>
>
> 1 Leofric III --Lord Coventry, Earl Mercia, Leicester. ®1 Born in 0975 in of
> Mercia, England. Leofric III died in Bromley, Staffordshire, England on 31
> Aug 1057; he was 82.
>
> bef 1030 when Leofric III was 55, he married Godiva --Lady of Lincoln ®2.
> They were divorced.
>
> 2 Leofwine --Earl Mercia, 5th Earl Leicester. Leofwine died abt 1032.
THere was no such title as Earl of Leicester at this time, and there
certainly hadn't been 5 of them.
>
> 4 Edulf.
>
> Edulf married Elfwina of Mercia ®3. They were divorced.
You cite Faris's Plantagenet ancestry for this, but as far as I
remember, his book does not address this time period at all. I know of
no reliable evidence that Leofwine was son of Edulf. A recent
wpeculative work by Kelley states confidently that he was son of a
Aelfwine, IIRC.
> 5 Elfwina of Mercia. ®3
>
> 8 Ordgar --Earl of Devon. ®3 Ordgar died in 0870.
There is no evidence that I know of that Ordgar had a son named Edulf.
> 10 Ethelred --Earl of Mercia. ®4 Ethelred died in 0912.
>
> bef 0890 Ethelred married Ethelfleda --Princess of England ®5. They were
> divorced.
>
> 11 Ethelfleda --Princess of England. ®5 Ethelfleda died on 15 Jun 0919.
>
> 16 Aelfgar I --Earl of Leicester.
Again, I don't know where this could be comong from, but Ordgar's
parentage is unknown (last I knew).
> 20 Hugh the Great --Earl of Mercia. ®3 Hugh the Great died aft 0853.
An Englishman named Hugh? I think not, and certainly not in Faris.
Kelley did propose a line of descent of Leofric from Alfred the Great.
IIRC it ran Alfred - Edward - Aethelflaed - Aelfwine - Leofwine -
Leofric. He also suggested that this family descended in the male line
from Aethelwold, elder son of King Aethelred I, but that descent was
strung together with scotch tape and crazy glue.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> In a message dated 6/22/99 11:00:19 PM Central Daylight Time,
> tige...@aol.com writes:
>
> << Is this supposed to be "THE" Lady Godiva, born about 1040, who rode in the
> >nude on her horse? Surely this dear Lady Godiva could not have a grandson
> >Earl Edwin who was killed in 1071.
>
> Actually, yes I think so.
>
I think your birthdate for Godiva is wrong. She did have two grandsons,
Edwin and Morcar, who were Ealdormen at the time of the invasion of
Harald Hardrade in 1066.
taf
Stewart Baldwin
>In a message dated 6/22/99 11:00:19 PM Central Daylight Time,
>tige...@aol.com writes:
>
><< Is this supposed to be "THE" Lady Godiva, born about 1040, who rode in the
> >nude on her horse? Surely this dear Lady Godiva could not have a grandson
> >Earl Edwin who was killed in 1071.
> >
>
> Actually, yes I think so.
> Rania >>
>
>How do you make the numbers work?
The alleged birthdate of about 1040 for Godiva is not even close. I
would be surprised if there is any evidence at all that would give
even an approximate birthdate for her, but she was certainly born MUCH
earlier than 1040.
Stewart Baldwin
JKent...@aol.com
ta...@po.cwru.edu writes:
<< I think your birthdate for Godiva is wrong. She did have two grandsons,
Edwin and Morcar, who were Ealdormen at the time of the invasion of
Harald Hardrade in 1066.
>>
I think the birthdate is wrong also. In looking through some Biographical
Dictionaries you would have thought that the authors were a bunch of rumor
mongers. One of them said she was born in 1140 and died in 1180. Good
trick. One said she was born in 1040 and another actually said she did her
ride in 1040. One did not have a clue about dates. The Encyclopedia
Britanica says she did her famous ride in 1040 "naked". It also says it was
a rumor. Hum! Well, Tom the tailor was the one who is said to have peeped
and thus became the world's first Peeping Tom.
Jno
Reedpcgen
>Kelley did propose a line of descent of Leofric from Alfred the Great.
>IIRC it ran Alfred - Edward - Aethelflaed - Aelfwine - Leofwine -
>Leofric. He also suggested that this family descended in the male line
>from Aethelwold, elder son of King Aethelred I, but that descent was
>strung together with scotch tape and crazy glue.
>
>taf
>
David Kelley also proposed a descent in the Charles Evans festschrift:
Aelfwine; Leofwine, E. of Mercia; Leofric, E. of Mercia; Aelfgar, E. of Mercia;
Eadwine, E. of Mercia; Owen, Ling of Tegeingl.
But the preface to the chart says, "Many doubtful points are not indicated s
such on this chart, which is intended solely to show the nature of the
conclusions reached. David Kelley already published some views on "Edwin of
Tegeingl" in TAG 46:1970)75-80.
pcr
William Addams Reitwiesner
>1. Royal Ancestors of Some American Families, by Michel L. Call, chart 11535.
Um, isn't this one usually given a less-than-passing grade? :)
KHF...@aol.com
In a message dated 6/23/1999 10:02:36 AM, ta...@po.cwru.edu writes:
Regarding "Edulf married Elfwina of Mercia ®3. They were divorced."
<<You cite Faris's Plantagenet ancestry for this, but as far as I
remember, his book does not address this time period at all. I know of
no reliable evidence that Leofwine was son of Edulf. A recent
speculative work by Kelley states confidently that he was son of a
Aelfwine, IIRC.>>
I like Leo's quote that he pinched. "May I end with pinching part of his
dedication
....to err may be human, to really louse things up takes a computer.
Importation of a Gedcom program used for this chart seems to have affected
and confused the references. I can find no reference for this, so it is
likely false. I assume the data was from Kelley's hypothesis, but it seems
that the connection is mental rather than proven. I will try to make some
sense of this and print something on it.
-Ken
KHF...@aol.com
In a message dated 6/23/1999 7:00:22 PM, wr...@EROLS.COM writes:
<<>1. Royal Ancestors of Some American Families, by Michel L. Call, chart
11535.
Um, isn't this one usually given a less-than-passing grade? :)>>
Yep, it is especially bad in the early lines and responsible, I am sure, for
many errors. Readers beware.
- Ken
Brice Clagett
Two footnotes to the Driby-Gaveston matter:
First, Thomas Malory of Papworth St. Agnes, Cambridgeshire, grandson of Alice Driby and great-grandson of Amy de Gaveston, is one of the two serious candidates for the authorship of the Morte Darthur. The fashionable view today supports another man, Sir Thomas Malory of Newbold Revel, Warwickshire; see P.J.C. Field, The Life and Times of Sir Thomas Malory (1993). But the candidacy of Thomas of Papworth is persuasively argued by Professor Richard Griffiths in a number of articles, including "The Authorship Question Reconsidered," in Aspects of Malory, ed. T. Takamiya et al. (1981).
A key issue is whether Thomas of Papworth was ever knighted, since the author was clearly a knight. Professor Griffiths argues that Thomas of Papworth was knighted shortly before his death, and relies on an unpublished inquisition referring to him as such. Field argues that this inquisition actually referred to the Newbold Revel man.
Second footnote: a great-great grandson of Thomas Malory of Papworth, and therefore seventh in descent from Amy de Gaveston, was Capt. Horatio Mallory, born 1595, settler in Bermuda by 1629. His daughter Elizabeth Mallory, born in Bermuda in 1642, married William Rivers and they settled in South Carolina in 1681; many descendants.
Reedpcgen
>was clearly a knight. Professor Griffiths argues that Thomas of Papworth was
>knighted shortly before his death, and relies on an unpublished inquisition
>referring to him as such.
I saw SOME record in what I was looking at which referred to Thomas as a
knight. I'll go back through what I copied and see if somthing shows up. It
is very believable that the son and heir of Sir Anketil de Mallory (d. 1393)
and of his wife, an heiress in her own right, and with influential connections,
was knighted. Though he died young, his father had predeceased him by many
years.
pcr
Todd A. Farmerie
It is not the son of Anketil, but his grandson, the son and heir of
William, who is the Thomas in question. This theory (that William's son
was the author) was discussed some time ago by A.T.Martin in
Archaeologia, v. 56 pt. 1:165-177.
taf