Albini/Aubigny Line
Jay Garner
I am interested in William "Brito" de Albini Lord Belvoir (d c 1156);
William D'Aubigny (Albini) who married Maud Bigod (d 1236);
William "le Meschines" d'Aubigny 1st Earl of Arundel d 1176 (m Adeliza de
Louvain, King Henry I's widow);
and William "Pincerna" d' Albini d 1139.
Weiss in Magna Charta Sureties" 6th ed. line 1 (1) and line 157 (3) is givng
me fits compared to most of what I see others have, as well as what CP has.
I am trying to get the line straight as far as who the parents were of
William d'Aubigny who m. Maud le Bigod and who died in 1236. Is this the
same William who married Margery de Umphraville? Chronologically, it can't
be, but I'm having a time sorting it out.
If someone has the relevant line info for the above four men, and who each
married, their progeny, sibs, parents, etc. I'd appreciate it. I have my
earliest William (d c 1156) as the son of a Roger d'Aubigny, and he as the
son of Robert de Toeni, but I suspect this is not true. Others have the line
stemming from the de Saint-Sauveur line.
Regards
J.H. Garner
jgar...@kc.rr.com
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/g/a/r/J-H-Garner/?Welcome=1021652
734
Todd A. Farmerie
> If someone has the relevant line info for the above four men,
and who each
> married, their progeny, sibs, parents, etc. I'd appreciate it.
I have my
> earliest William (d c 1156) as the son of a Roger d'Aubigny,
and he as the
> son of Robert de Toeni, but I suspect this is not true. Others
have the line
> stemming from the de Saint-Sauveur line.
Robert de Todeny (of Belvoir) was the maternal grandfather (it
would seem) of the two Bigod sisters who married Williams de
Aubigy of each family.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
> I am having some difficulty with the Albini/Aubigny line.
Lines, and you have two distinct families mixed together.
> I am interested in William "Brito" de Albini Lord Belvoir (d c 1156);
> William D'Aubigny (Albini) who married Maud Bigod (d 1236);
> William "le Meschines" d'Aubigny 1st Earl of Arundel d 1176 (m Adeliza de
> Louvain, King Henry I's widow);
> and William "Pincerna" d' Albini d 1139.
>
> Weiss in Magna Charta Sureties" 6th ed. line 1 (1) and line 157 (3) is givng
> me fits compared to most of what I see others have, as well as what CP has.
> I am trying to get the line straight as far as who the parents were of
> William d'Aubigny who m. Maud le Bigod and who died in 1236. Is this the
> same William who married Margery de Umphraville? Chronologically, it can't
> be, but I'm having a time sorting it out.
>
> If someone has the relevant line info for the above four men, and who each
> married, their progeny, sibs, parents, etc. I'd appreciate it. I have my
> earliest William (d c 1156) as the son of a Roger d'Aubigny, and he as the
> son of Robert de Toeni, but I suspect this is not true. Others have the line
> stemming from the de Saint-Sauveur line.
OK, let's lay them out (based on Paget's baronage, with a few
additions).
Aubigny of Belvoir
1.Main d'Aubigny, apparently of St. Aubin d'Aubigne, m. (again
apparently) ____ de Bohun, sister of Humphrey I de Bohun.
2. William d'Aubigny Brito, m. Cecily Bigod, daughter of Roger
Bigod by Adelaide de Todeny, daughter of RObert de Todeny (Tosny)
of Belvoir.
a. William
b. Robert
c. Roger
d. Matilda
e. Basilia
f. Geoffrey
g. Odo
h. Ralph
i. (perh) Elias, ancestor of Aubigny of Ingleby
3. William d. ca. 1167/8 m. Maud de St. Liz, daughter of Robert
Fitz Richard de Clare by Maud de St. Liz
a. William
4. William, b. 6 May 1236, m.1 Margery de Umfraville, m.2 Agatha
Trusbut.
a. William
b. Odonel
c. Robert
d. Nicholas
5. William, d. bef. 1242, m.1 Aubrey Biset, m.2 Isabel
a. Isabel, sole heiress, m. RObert de Ros
Aubigny of Arundel
O. William d'Aubigny, of St. Martin d'Aubigny, who married the
sister of Grimauld de Plessis, (some reconstructions make him
older brother instead)
a. Roger
b. Nigel, ancestor of Aubigny of Cainhoe
c. Richard, Abbot of St. Albans
1. Roger d'Aubigny, heir (either son or brother) of William
d'Aubigny, brother-in-law of Grimoult de Plessis, m. Amicia
(Paget says 'de Mowbray' sister of Bishop Geoffrey, but appears
to be too credulous here)
a. Rualloc
b. William
c. Nigel, ancestor of Mowbray
2. William d'Aubigny Pincerna, d. 1139, m. Maud Bigod (sister of
Cicely, above).
a. William
b. Nigel
c. Oliver
d. Oliva m. Ralph de Haya
3. William, d. 1176, Earl of Arundel m. Adeliza of Louvain, widow
of King Henry I.
a. William
b. Geoffrey
c. Hermerius
d. Olive
e. Agatha
f. Alice, m. John d'Eu
4. William, d. 1193, m. Maud de St. Hillary
a. William
b. Agnes, m. William Mowbray
5. William, m. Mabel, coheiress of Ranulf, Earl of Chester
a. William, d.s.p.
b. Hugh, d.s.p.
c. Maud, m. Robert de Tatershall
d. Isabel, m. John Fitz Alan
e. Nichola, m. Roger de Somery
f. Cecily, m. Roger de Montault
As to the link to the Saint Sauvieur line, there is nothing to it
- just a guess based on the names of William and Nigel occuring
in both families.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
> Aubigny of Belvoir
> 3. William d. ca. 1167/8 m. Maud de St. Liz, daughter of Robert Fitz
> Richard de Clare by Maud de St. Liz
> a. William
>
> 4. William, b. 6 May 1236, m.1 Margery de Umfraville, m.2 Agatha Trusbut.
Obviously, this should be d. 1236.
taf
CMc...@aol.com
Thanks so much for the interesting information to straighten these lines out.
I have two questions: Is Roger de Somery who married Nichola d'Aubigny the
same person as the Roger de Somery who married Agnes and had Joan de Somery
who married Thomas de Botetourte? Second, William who d. 6 May 1236 married
both Margery de Umfraville and Agatha Trusbut. Who are the children by?
Thanks again. Charlie McNett
Todd A. Farmerie
> Todd,
> Thanks so much for the interesting information to straighten these lines out.
> I have two questions: Is Roger de Somery who married Nichola d'Aubigny the
> same person as the Roger de Somery who married Agnes and had Joan de Somery
> who married Thomas de Botetourte?
I'll have to look this one up.
> Second, William who d. 6 May 1236 married
> both Margery de Umfraville and Agatha Trusbut. Who are the children by?
Margery (according to Paget). In the next generation, Isabel was
daughter of Isabel.
taf
Robert H. Abney
Michael Harris
If you are curious, my surname derives from the wife of Richard Grammaticus aka de Camera (meaning of the king's chamber). Richard is the son of Ralph Grammaticus II aka le Rous, founder of Nostell priory, the son of Ralph Grammaticus I, possibly the brother of Roger de Albini. Richard Grammaticus married Amicia de Heriz, daughter of Geoffrey de Heriz, and their son Geoffrey de Eccleston aka de Heriz was named for his maternal grandfather. Heriz evolved over time into de Heris, Herries and other forms, standardizing on Harris. But this branch of the family de Heriz used the paternal Albini arms featuring cinquefoil charges. Albany is a branch of the family bearing arms of Hamilton, their near cousins, but reverse tincture.
Cheers,
Michael Harris
Peter Stewart
> Hi Robert. My research focus for many years has involved the family Albini, kinsmen to Roger de Albini, father of William pincerna. This family frequently uses the moniker Rufus or le Rous, the French equivalent. The moniker le Rous essentially means "with a sharp point." Variations of le Rous used by kinsmen include "cum Barba," "le Tyes" aka Teutonicus and other forms of the same meaning, "with a sharp point." I suspect that members of the Albini family using the term "Brito," also meaning "with a sharp point," are near kinsmen of those using the form Rufus aka le Rous.
wrong end:
Rufus like its derivatives means 'red' or 'ruddy', as noted in the
Oxford Dictionary of Family Names in Britain and Ireland (2016), vol 4
p. 2289: "Rouse
Variants: Rous, Rowse, Roos, Russ ... English: nickname from Middle
English and Anglo-Norman French rous(e) ‘red’, for someone with red hair
or a ruddy complexion."
'Cum barba" means literally 'with a beard', whatever its colouring -
i.e. as in Bluebeard = Barbe Bleue.
Tyes is classified in the Oxford Dictionary vol 4 p. 2760 as a variant
of Tye, Tice, "English: locative name from Middle English tye, teghe,
teye ‘enclosed piece of land; large area of common pasture’ (Old English
tēag, tīege). The surname may be topographic, for someone who lived on
or near such a piece of land, or toponymic, for someone from a place so
named, such as Teigh (Rutland) or Great, Little, and Marks Tey (Essex)."
'Teutonicus' simply means German.
The Rufus branch of Albini had strong connections with Dol and Alan fitz
Flaad and members of the family were indeed bishops of Dol. The Brito
branch, of course, sported those same connections. Interestingly, the
Rufus bishops of Dol were the tenants of Herluin de Conteville at
St.Sampson near Conteville. Herluin's father Ansgot is undoubtedly a
near relation (from an earlier generation) of William, the father of
Roger de Albini. My ancestor is Ralph Grammaticus I, the near kinsman
of Roger de Albini and his sons, including Ansgot Rufus de Albini,
hereditary clerk of the king's privy exchequer, an office held by Ralph
Grammaticus I and his progeny. Ansgot Rufus de Albini is a Yorkshire
neighbor of Ralph and Niel de Albini was Ralph's overlord in many
places. A super long story can be summarized by saying that Ralph
Grammaticus is most definitely a member of the Albini family, meaning
that you and I are possibly paternally related from a time before the
Rufus and Brito lines diverged. I would like to confirm this using a
Y-STR correlation if you happen to have developed a Y-STR profile?
>
> If you are curious, my surname derives from the wife of Richard Grammaticus aka de Camera (meaning of the king's chamber). Richard is the son of Ralph Grammaticus II aka le Rous, founder of Nostell priory, the son of Ralph Grammaticus I, possibly the brother of Roger de Albini. Richard Grammaticus married Amicia de Heriz, daughter of Geoffrey de Heriz, and their son Geoffrey de Eccleston aka de Heriz was named for his maternal grandfather. Heriz evolved over time into de Heris, Herries and other forms, standardizing on Harris. But this branch of the family de Heriz used the paternal Albini arms featuring cinquefoil charges. Albany is a branch of the family bearing arms of Hamilton, their near cousins, but reverse tincture.
>
"English: relationship name from the personal name Harry + genitival -s."
Peter Stewart
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In later French tiois (certainly in Belgium) was the Romance equivalent of Deutsch, Dutch, Diets, Duuts etc, by which I mean the terms used to refer to people or populations who spoke what linguists now call continental West Germanic languages - the ancestral dialects of German, Dutch and their relatives. Italian still has the word tedesco, meaning German. The original pronunciation will have been something like theodiscus.
"Teutonicus" was used as a learned Latin equivalent in medieval texts.
This concept had nothing to do with sharp sticks. Perhaps some old book or website has mixed it up with an old speculative etymology for the word "German", which proposed that it meant "spear man", although I don't think that is taken very seriously any more.
Peter Stewart
the surname Tyas, vol. 4 p. 2759:
"Tyas
Variants: Tyass, Tyers, Tyres, Tice ...
1 English: ethnic name from Anglo-Norman French t(i)eis, tiais ‘Teuton,
German’, denoting someone from Germany or the Low Countries. Some of the
early bearers may belong with (2). ...
2 Norman, English: locative name, occasionally from Thais
(Val-de-Marne). Compare Nicholas de Tieys, canon of the church of Saint
Stephen de Gressibus,Paris, 1309 in Patent Rolls."
Peter Stewart
Peter Howarth
<snip>
>
> Cheers,
> Michael Harris
Peter Howarth