Any comments on this line? TAF?
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
Juan II, king of Aragon, m. Juana; dt. of
Fadrique, (m. Mariana of Cordova); son of
Alfonso, (m. Juana de Mendoza); son of
Fadrique, (d. 1358), (brother of Enrique II of Castile), m. Paloma; dt. of
Gedaliah; son of
Shlomo Ha-Zeken, (d. 1299); son of
Yosef, (d. 1264); son of
Yahya ha-Nasi, (Don Yahya "El Negro", Lord of Aldeia dos Negros, Portugal),
(d. 1222); son of
Yaish, (d. 1196); son of
Hiyya al-Daudi, (d. 1154); son of
David; son of
Hizkaya; son of
David; son of
Zakkai; son of
Abraham; son of
Nathan; son of
David, (curiously a rabbi) - (WHY 'CURIOUSLY'? This line was LOADED with
rabbi'im); son of
Hazub, (Last Prince of the Davidic Dynasty mentioned in the medieval Jewish
chronicle, the _Seder Olam Zuta_, [the Smaller/Shorter Order,
{Chronology/Time-Line}, of the World]); son of
Pinkhas, Prince (Phinehas or Pinchus); son of
Abbai, Prince; son of
Abdimi, Prince; son of
Nehemiah, Prince; son of
Magis, Prince, (Magis, id. with Misas); son of
Haninai, Prince; son of
Shemaiah, Prince; son of
Yakov, Prince; son of
Sutra II, Prince, (Mar-Zutra); son of
Guriya, Prince; son of
Saadia, (Sa'adyah), Prince of Judah; son of
Sutra [I], (Mar-Zutra), "Rav", Prince of Judah, son of the 30th Exilarch,
Mar-Zutra II. Sutra I was the son of his father's second wife, and given
his father's name. He was born the day of his father's execution. He was
carried to Palestine. As an adult he was accepted as Nasi or
Prince/Patriarch, and founded a new dynasty of the Palestinian Nesi'im ca.
550 CE, thus ending the interregnum period following the deposition of
Gamaliel VI in 425 CE.
Mar-Zutra II, the 30th Exilarch, reigned 512-520, in succession to Ahija(h)
I. He reigned first under the regency of Pa'idah, the brother of his first
wife, (508-512), who was deposed by his father Haninai, who then became
associated with his son in his reign. The execution of Mar-Zutra II was
followed by a vacancy in the office of Exilarch from 520-550 CE. Mar-Zutra
II's first son was Ahunai, (Huna Mar II), who was Exilarch from 550-560,
being restored after the interregnum. From his line was descended a new
dynasty of Exilarchs through Hofnai, Exilarch 560-581, whose sons were
Haninai, (Exilarch 581-589), and Bostani (I), who founded the new dynasty.
The portion from the _Seder Olam Zuta_ is as accurate as can be determined.
Al-Daudi means 'the Davidic', and would be entirely appropriate to such
ancestry. Was there, in fact, such a Jewish background for the Trastamaras?
Hovite
taf
wrote:
I cannot comment on the Davidic Exilarch line, other than to indicate
that I have always been uneasy about it - just as there are problems
with pedigrees tracing descents of modern rulers from Mohammad, I have
to worry about long lines of names without contemporary support.
As to the Jewish ancestry of Ferdinand the great, I have seen this
precise connection suggested (through Fadrique) but I have never
looked into it at all. Paloma does seem an odd name for a daughter of
Gedaliah, but it easily could have been a nickname.
taf
Peter Stewart
I haven't looked into this either, but my memory is that Fadrique of
Haro's Jewish mistress was popularly known as "la paloma" (the dove)
and that her ancestry is unknown.
Peter Stewart
Hovite
> just as there are problems
> with pedigrees tracing descents of modern rulers from Mohammad
They are like the Anglo-Saxon descents from Woden: fictional.
taf
It is not quite so simple as this, as this sets up a false dichotomy.
Proven and fictional are not antonyms, and not the only two options.
We don't know that all such lines are fictional. To know that we would
need the same type of evidence (which is lacking) necessary to show
them true. They are simply not supported by surviving evidence, and
while some of them can be more or less safely concluded likely to be
false, for some we have nothing on which to base even this. These must
simply be left to be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism.
In the Anglo Saxon case, I would put a different (and decreasing)
probability of accuracy on the pedigrees of Ine, Ecgbert and the
latter's immediate predecessors.
taf
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
"taf" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message news:1182283733....@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Since this thread began with a discussion, in part, of Rabbinical lineages, I feel obligated to point out that Jewish communities were extremely scrupulous and conscientious in recording the lineage(s) of their rabbis. Yes! Some later, (often Christian exotica-seekers), did introduce the horticultural practise of grafting branches onto the trunk. But, in context, this recent exchange would imply that such rabbinical lines are fiction. Simply not so.
Ford
taf
wrote:
>
> Since this thread began with a discussion, in part, of Rabbinical lineages, I feel obligated to point out that Jewish communities were extremely scrupulous and conscientious in recording the lineage(s) of their rabbis. Yes! Some later, (often Christian exotica-seekers), did introduce the horticultural practise of grafting branches onto the trunk. But, in context, this recent exchange would imply that such rabbinical lines are fiction. Simply not so.
> Ford
It was not my intent to indicate that they are fiction - only that
they should be viewed with skepticism (the case for all lines,
right?). That being said, even "extremely scrupulous" records can
have accuracy problems when they run through 5 centuries of otherwise
undocumented individuals with nothing but names. I don't know that we
should give the _Seder Olam Zuta_ a free pass, any more than we would
give a free pass to a christian chronicle presenting such a line.
By the way, weren't the clergy and the secular leaders derived from
different houses/clans? Yet this line traces rabbis from Exilarchs.
taf
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
----- Original Message -----
From: "taf" <farm...@interfold.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: Any comments on this line? TAF?
: On Jun 19, 1:43 pm, "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommae...@cox.net>
: wrote:
: >
: > Since this thread began with a discussion, in part, of Rabbinical lineages, I feel obligated to point out that Jewish communities were extremely scrupulous and conscientious in recording the lineage(s) of their rabbis. Yes! Some later, (often Christian exotica-seekers), did introduce the horticultural practise of grafting branches onto the trunk. But, in context, this recent exchange would imply that such rabbinical lines are fiction. Simply not so.
: > Ford
:
: It was not my intent to indicate that they are fiction - only that
: they should be viewed with skepticism (the case for all lines,
: right?).
'Of course right!'
: That being said, even "extremely scrupulous" records can
: have accuracy problems when they run through 5 centuries of otherwise
: undocumented individuals with nothing but names.
This discussion started not with the line from the _Seder Olam Zuta_, but with another, that had only about a ?-dozen such names. Still, I have trouble with that, also.
: I don't know that we
: should give the _Seder Olam Zuta_ a free pass, any more than we would
: give a free pass to a christian chronicle presenting such a line.
The _SOZ_ should not be given a free pass - for all of the reasons that we have discussed with other longer lines.
:
: By the way, weren't the clergy and the secular leaders derived from
: different houses/clans? Yet this line traces rabbis from Exilarchs.
:
: taf
No. Rabbi means teacher; but originally the chief function of rabbis was as judge - specifically because of their great learning. They were judging, as a _bet din_, (usually a rabbinic tribunal), cases or matters of _halachah_, the Jewish collection of laws, _mitzvot_ and rites. They Exilarhic family tree is replete with rabbis and _gaonim_, (heads of the academies), who were, by the way, appointed by the Rosh haGolah/Resh Galuta/Exilarch.
Ford
WJhonson
Yes! Some later, (often Christian exotica-seekers), did introduce the horticultural practise of grafting branches onto the trunk. But, in context, this recent exchange would imply that such rabbinical lines are fiction. Simply not so. >>
This may or may not be so, however being able to view the actual documentation would help with the issue. Any online copies of these documents ?
Will
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
From: "WJhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: Any comments on this line? TAF?
:
This is what I have been able to find, quickly. Some will have more information. Much of the work, (as with anything), is not on the web, (yet).
Ford
http://www.jewishgen.org/Rabbinic/
http://www.jewishgen.org/Rabbinic/discussion.htm
http://www.jewishgen.org/rabbinic/journal/main.htm
http://www.jewishgen.org/Rabbinic/journal/kdavid2.htm
http://www.jewishgen.org/Rabbinic/journal/descent.htm
http://www.jewishgen.org/Rabbinic/journal/descent_part2.htm
http://failedmessiah.wordpress.com/2006/02/06/the-rebbe-king-david-and-the-maharal-of-prague/
http://www.davidicdynasty.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seder_Olam_Zutta - I know, I know - wikipedia
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rabbi-rabbi/
'Give me the judgement of balanced minds in preference to laws
everytime. Codes and manuals create patterned behavior. All patterned
behavior tends to go unquestioned, gathering destructive momentum.'