OLYVER MARTIN, Norman Crusader... please help the newbie :>

[Bill Martin]

Dear All,

Can anyone come up with (or point the way to) a MARTIN pedigree going
back to antiquity - regarding the MARTIN family of Norman origins in
Ireland, exclusively, please? I'd read that a MARTIN family in Galway has
a pedigree that traces themselves back to OLYVER MARTIN, the famous
Norman Crusader with William II (if I remember correctly). Surely, one of
the Tribes of Galway has a detailed (published or unpublished) genealogy
somewhere. Your kind indulgence and assistance would be dearly
appreciated. Please let me know. Slainte.

Bill Martin

[Bill Martin]

GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Regulars,

Could anyone tell me anything substantive abut a man known as Oliver of
Jussey... the man, his ancestors, and descendents?

In the recent book by Jonathan Riley-Smith, The First Crusaders,
1095-1131 (1998), he examined all the narrative sources and many
cartularies and other collection of documents and established a list of
names of Crusaders. He identified 791 individuals who took the cross
between 1095 and 1131 and there one finds a man referred to as Oliver of
Jussey (1st Crusade)... Jussey is north-east of Dijon in France.

This Oliver of Jussey is believed to be the great-grandfather of Sir
Oliver Martyn, who you may remember I've posted previous queries about...
whose descendents came to be known as the Martin tribe of Galway,
Ireland, mentioned in Hardiman's account of Galway and their merchant
families whom came to be known as the "Tribes of Galway", which is
available online at this URL:

http://www.wombat.ie/galwayguide/history/hardiman/c1.html

From an online account by Adrian James Martyn, Irish author:

"The Martin family of Galway claim descent from Sir Oliver Martyn, great
grandson of a Norman [Oliver of Jussey] who accompanied William the
Conquorer on the Norman Invasion of England in 1066. Sir Oliver is
supposed to have fought under Richard the Lionhearted in the Third
Crusade (1189-1192), who knighted him and awarded him the family coat of
arms. Oliver is alleged to have shared Richard's adventures on his
journey home and is supposed to have died while imprisoned with him in
Austria. A document was found in modern-day Hungary sometime in the last
century corroborating this statement. The Martin family is first
mentioned as living in Galway in 1270, along with other emerging families
such as Joyce, Kirwin and Lynch, and at some point in their history, they
claimed Oliver as their ancestor".

Yes, I was mistaken about any affiliation with William II in my previous
posts... apologies to the ghost of Rufus. Please share what you can with
me. Looking forward to hearing from you.

Bill

[aslove...@gmail.com]

HELLO BILL: Take a look at my unfinished page: www.societyofsirmartindetours.tribalpages.com
I live at 33 Cottage Street, Apt 4, New London 06320 Connecticut USA
aslove...@gmail.com

Oh, if you descend from Sir Oliver Martin you be in the R1a1a haplogroup! Cheers!

[taf]

On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 3:33:49 PM UTC-7, aslove...@gmail.com wrote:

> HELLO BILL: Take a look at my unfinished page: www.societyofsirmartindetours.tribalpages.com

> Oh, if you descend from Sir Oliver Martin you be in the R1a1a haplogroup! Cheers!

That page has a massive amount of antiquarian mythology on it. Just as a trivial example, the armies of 1066 were not commanded by Generals.

taf

[Peter Stewart]

It goes awry from the start - the heading 'Royal House of Blois' is a nonsense, as this was a comital family that happened to produce a cadet who became a king. And of course the family was Frankish, not Norman.

The fictitious connection of Robert fitz Martin's father to a Norman 'general' named William, then this imaginary personage to the counts of Blois, and then their family to St Martin of Tours, are absurd wishful thinking based on a late-medieval monastic fantasy of a common & worthless variety.

Peter Stewart

[aslove...@gmail.com]

Very fuzzy meaningless diatribe! Silly guess quack everywhere! Most disturbed, pseudo-etymologist and appallingly recreative wit! Fantastic mythological vice. If you can't beat them, beat them anyway! The like of you pollute intellectual severity. May Christ forgive your assaults against the truth! That Phanuel should prosper and Adnachiel guard against you! Raphael is the archangel of the fifth ray of truth, wholeness. Amitiel. Uriel. Fidelem aniroum ab omni malo Dominus custodit, id est ne cum Diabolus ...Hos ergo peD des, unde et diabolus lapsus est, unde primus homo corruit, ad animam ...amen et amen.

[joe...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 9:19:23 AM UTC-4, aslove...@gmail.com wrote:

> Very fuzzy meaningless diatribe! Silly guess quack everywhere! Most disturbed, pseudo-etymologist and appallingly recreative wit! Fantastic mythological vice. If you can't beat them, beat them anyway! The like of you pollute intellectual severity. May Christ forgive your assaults against the truth! That Phanuel should prosper and Adnachiel guard against you! Raphael is the archangel of the fifth ray of truth, wholeness. Amitiel. Uriel. Fidelem aniroum ab omni malo Dominus custodit, id est ne cum Diabolus ...Hos ergo peD des, unde et diabolus lapsus est, unde primus homo corruit, ad animam ...amen et amen.

D. Spencer Hines, is that you?

[Andrew Lancaster]

Bill for the family of Robert fitzMartin, referred to in one of the replies, in preference to websites start with...

Lyte, Sir Henry Maxwell (1919) “Burci, Falaise and Martin” in the ''Proceedings'' of the Somerset Archaeol. and Nat. Hist. Soc., vol. lxv, pp.1-27 https://archive.org/details/proceedings65some/page/n99

For Robert, the name "fitz Martin" was not a family name but literally just "son of Martin". It does nevertheless appear that he might be one of the earliest traceable ancestors of a Martin family in England. I guess there will have been many Martin families founded after him though, and it seems no one has any serious idea of who his father's ancestors were.

[Linda Dawn]

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

I have never understood why some people quote posts without saying anything, themselves.

[John Higgins]

I have never understood why some people feel they need to post on such trivial issues - especially when it accomplishes nothing.

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

It's just for the record.

[John Higgins]

Record of what? Of trivial mistakes made by someone trying to access this group? What's the point?

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

I just wanted to note my thoughts. FYI, I am an Asperger's.

[Enno Borgsteede]

Op 21-11-2021 om 15:41 schreef Paulo Ricardo Canedo:

> I just wanted to note my thoughts. FYI, I am an Asperger's.

Me too, just to let you know. Any known Aspergers in medieval times?

[Will Johnson]

They called it something else

[John Higgins]

So...what did they call it? Enlighten us, please.

[Denis Beauregard]

On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:04:28 -0800 (PST), John Higgins
<jhigg...@yahoo.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

Hans Asperger is born in 1906 and the name of the syndrom is named
by him, so if it was described before the 1940s, then it must have
another name. But I would say it was not described or defined in
middle age era.


Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

Thanks for letting me know.

[Peter Stewart]

If they thought it needed labelling in the first place, and if they read
narratives of past kings, they maybe called it "royalty".

Peter Stewart

[John Higgins]

I agree with you - but Will Johnson seems to think otherwise....

[Enno Borgsteede]

Op 23-11-2021 om 01:58 schreef Peter Stewart:

Nice. You mean autism by inbreeding? Touchy subject, in modern times.

Putting that aside, the usual suspects that I know, like Henry Cavendish, or Isaac Newton, are too young to be medieval, and in the strictest interpretation of medieval, even Leonardo da Vinci would be to young.

[Will Johnson]

Reading comprehension
I said it was not called Aspergers in medieval times
I cannot help that you want to add extra layers of interpretation to my very clear sentence

[Peter Stewart]

On 24-Nov-21 12:59 AM, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
> Op 23-11-2021 om 01:58 schreef Peter Stewart:
>> On 23-Nov-21 11:04 AM, John Higgins wrote:
>>> On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 1:45:02 PM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 5:42:41 AM UTC-8, enno...@gmail.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Op 21-11-2021 om 15:41 schreef Paulo Ricardo Canedo:
>>>>>> I just wanted to note my thoughts. FYI, I am an Asperger's.
>>>>> Me too, just to let you know. Any known Aspergers in medieval times?
>>>> They called it something else
>>> So...what did they call it?  Enlighten us, please.
>>
>> If they thought it needed labelling in the first place, and if they
>> read narratives of past kings, they maybe called it "royalty".
>
> Nice. You mean autism by inbreeding? Touchy subject, in modern times.

This didn't cross my mind, Enno - I wasn't aware that a genetic factor
in Asperger's is currently debated.

I was thinking of identifiable habits in the public lives of kings,
their tending to be social loners with a single-minded focus on things
that please or benefit themselves without always considering the effects
on others. I doubt that such patterns of behaviour are due entirely to
genes rather than being random and perhaps resulting in some part from
early (even perinatal) experience.

> Putting that aside, the usual suspects that I know, like Henry
> Cavendish, or Isaac Newton, are too young to be medieval, and in the
> strictest interpretation of medieval, even Leonardo da Vinci would be to
> young.

Emperor Frederick II is no doubt a candidate as well. The list of
medieval rulers to consider in such an unanswerable question is surely long.

Peter Stewart

[John Higgins]

I understood your meaning very clearly. You said "They CALLED it something else" in medieval times. That says they had a name for it, or so you said. That's different than saying "it was NOT called Aspergers in medieval times", which implies that they did NOT have a name for it. Which "very clear sentence" of yours are we to believe?

[taf]

The whole point of naming a new syndrome is that it has not been recognized as a coherent entity previously. It would have been called numerous different things by different people at different times, based on their own cultural and medical context. In many cases, different symptoms of a syndrome would have been called different things, sometimes even in the same patient. In the case of Aspergers it would have been called all of the things that a modern undiagnosed Aspergers individual is called, plus some additional ones that are no longer culturally relevant (like 'shaman' or 'witch').

taf

[Enno Borgsteede]

>>> If they thought it needed labelling in the first place, and if they read narratives of past kings, they maybe called it "royalty".
>>
>> Nice. You mean autism by inbreeding? Touchy subject, in modern times.
>
> This didn't cross my mind, Enno - I wasn't aware that a genetic factor in Asperger's is currently debated.

Neither was I. The touchy part lies in the fact that in my country, I read signals that there's more autism among certain groups of immigrants, where there is more inbreeding too. And that's something that you're not allowed to say in some parts of the 'modern' world.

> I was thinking of identifiable habits in the public lives of kings, their tending to be social loners with a single-minded focus on things that please or benefit themselves without always considering the effects on others. I doubt that such patterns of behaviour are due entirely to genes rather than being random and perhaps resulting in some part from early (even perinatal) experience.

Like growing up in an isolated world, and everyone trying to please you, etc. I get that.

> Emperor Frederick II is no doubt a candidate as well. The list of medieval rulers to consider in such an unanswerable question is surely long.

I thought about that, and for me famous autistic kin are more like the folklore part of my tree, not that I actually share enough genes with Newton or Cavendish.

Thanks anyway,

Enno

[joseph cook]

On Wednesday, November 24, 2021 at 7:25:07 AM UTC-5, enno...@gmail.com wrote:
> Neither was I. The touchy part lies in the fact that in my country, I read signals that there's more autism among certain groups of immigrants, where there is more inbreeding too. And that's something that you're not allowed to say in some parts of the 'modern' world.

You are allowed to say it. But people will yell at you, because it is an absurd correlation to make. And offensively stupid as well. "Populations" have different rates of medical conditions. "Certain groups of immigrants" makes it seem like you are evaluating fitness of groups of people to join your society based on their genetics.

-Joe C

[Denis Beauregard]

On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:25:04 +0100, Enno Borgsteede
<enno...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

>>>> If they thought it needed labelling in the first place, and if they read narratives of past kings, they maybe called it "royalty".
>>>
>>> Nice. You mean autism by inbreeding? Touchy subject, in modern times.
>>
>> This didn't cross my mind, Enno - I wasn't aware that a genetic factor in Asperger's is currently debated.
>
>Neither was I. The touchy part lies in the fact that in my country, I read signals that there's more autism among certain groups of immigrants, where there is more inbreeding too. And that's something that you're not allowed to say in some parts of the 'modern' world.

I would say it may depend on how you measure autism.

If you make assumptions based on the difficulty of
communicating, then you will find that all immigrants
with a foreign language are autist ! Off topic in this
debate about medieval Aspergers...

[Will Johnson]

They had a name for each and every thing.
That they had a wrong name, is not germane.
That they lumped it in with a dozen other unrelated symptoms is not germane.
There was a name for people with Asperger's in medieval times.
I will leave it as homework for you to figure out what that might have been.

[Peter Stewart]

In the context of this thread, where Enno has told us that the condition
applies to himself, I didn't read his observation as a negative
evaluation of others joining his society. People usually don't wish to
exclude their counterparts with any particular manifestation of a
syndrome, however they may seem to be grouped as population sub-sets.

This is maybe an illustration of the difficulty in communication at both
ends in a forum where brevity is more welcome than long and nuanced
disquisitions.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

Condescension is not attractive in writing any more than in person - and
anyway you are not a schoolmarm in charge of some recalcitrant children.

You and others may be interested in this:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24585581/

Asperger's syndrome is not a "right" name, it is just a label that was
conveniently attached to what is now often (though less conveniently)
termed "high-functioning autism spectrum disorder".

Peter Stewart

[Enno Borgsteede]

Op 24-11-2021 om 14:04 schreef joseph cook:

> You are allowed to say it. But people will yell at you, because it is an absurd correlation to make. And offensively stupid as well. "Populations" have different rates of medical conditions. "Certain groups of immigrants" makes it seem like you are evaluating fitness of groups of people to join your society based on their genetics.

Not really, since I have the same condition, and these articles do show up in the press, as a probable cause for making people easier to recuit in criminal gangs. Acknowledging that the diagnose may hit anyone, regardless of origin, but that it's more prevalent in certain groups, may actually save youngsters from being recruited.

It's not medieval though ...

[Denis Beauregard]

On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 08:55:42 +1100, Peter Stewart
<pss...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

>Asperger's syndrome is not a "right" name, it is just a label that was
>conveniently attached to what is now often (though less conveniently)
>termed "high-functioning autism spectrum disorder".

They are 2 different things, but the border between them is
somehow fuzzy.

There is this page in French by a related association.

https://www.asperansa.org/asperger_ahn.html

According to this page, the difference is how old was the
person when the language appeared.

As I understand it, Aspergers are learning to speak younger
compared to the other disorder (which would be translated
from French as high-level autism).

You can probably find something similar in your own language
and also, perhaps, how it would be named in medieval time.

In my own opinion, autism as is and variations would be
tagged something like lunatic, asocial or other negative terms.

I would say that Richard Heart of Lion was asocial when he
ordered to kill 3000 Muslims during crusades, but that would
not make him Asperger !

Someone tagged me as Asperger or autist but I talked about
that with my doctor who said that was just not true. As I
understand it, it can be not possible to clearly identify
someone as Asperger in medieval time. You can presume
someone was, but not prove it.

[Will Johnson]

On Wednesday, November 24, 2021 at 3:09:58 PM UTC-8, Denis Beauregard wrote:

>
> I would say that Richard Heart of Lion was asocial when he
> ordered to kill 3000 Muslims during crusades, but that would
> not make him Asperger !
>

> Denis
>

This?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Ayyadieh

[Peter Stewart]

On 25-Nov-21 10:10 AM, Denis Beauregard wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 08:55:42 +1100, Peter Stewart
> <pss...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>
>> Asperger's syndrome is not a "right" name, it is just a label that was
>> conveniently attached to what is now often (though less conveniently)
>> termed "high-functioning autism spectrum disorder".
>
> They are 2 different things, but the border between them is
> somehow fuzzy.
>
> There is this page in French by a related association.
>
> https://www.asperansa.org/asperger_ahn.html
>
> According to this page, the difference is how old was the
> person when the language appeared.
>
> As I understand it, Aspergers are learning to speak younger
> compared to the other disorder (which would be translated
> from French as high-level autism).
>
> You can probably find something similar in your own language
> and also, perhaps, how it would be named in medieval time.
>
> In my own opinion, autism as is and variations would be
> tagged something like lunatic, asocial or other negative terms.
>
> I would say that Richard Heart of Lion was asocial when he
> ordered to kill 3000 Muslims during crusades, but that would
> not make him Asperger !

Richard would surely have been regarded as a predominantly choleric
personality, rather than melancholic. Psychopathic violence isn't
generally associated with Asperger's.

Peter Stewart

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

Did any of you have the impression that I was Asperger's?

[Enno Borgsteede]

Op 25-11-2021 om 11:23 schreef Paulo Ricardo Canedo:

> Did any of you have the impression that I was Asperger's?
>

Not really. It's a trait that I expect to see among genealogists, including myself, and my late dad.

And in fact, it was shown in a local TV program about autism, where one retired autistic guy was interviewed in front of a PC with 3 monitors, on which I recognized a mosaic of film scans as they are available on FamilySearch.

His wife was also interviewed, saying that she'd hoped to spend more time with him after his retirement, in terms like enjoying the sun in their garden, having a coffee together, etc., and he needed to be told that she expected that, because he had no clue whatsoever.

[Enno Borgsteede]

Op 25-11-2021 om 00:10 schreef Denis Beauregard:

> On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 08:55:42 +1100, Peter Stewart
> <pss...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>
>> Asperger's syndrome is not a "right" name, it is just a label that was
>> conveniently attached to what is now often (though less conveniently)
>> termed "high-functioning autism spectrum disorder".
>
> They are 2 different things, but the border between them is
> somehow fuzzy.

And today, followers of DSM V are no more allowed to discriminate between them, and some activists even say that the term 'high functioning' is discriminating, and I'm sure that some say that about 'disorder' too. I'm not that woke myself, luckily.

> As I understand it, Aspergers are learning to speak younger
> compared to the other disorder (which would be translated
> from French as high-level autism).

This might very well be true. I was late with walking, but have no recollection of being late with speaking, at least not according to what my mother told me when I asked.

> In my own opinion, autism as is and variations would be
> tagged something like lunatic, asocial or other negative terms.

That's right. Some people see it that way, because it really sounds like a disease. That's why I prefer to call my self an autist, or autistic, with the danger of using identity politics.

> Someone tagged me as Asperger or autist but I talked about
> that with my doctor who said that was just not true. As I
> understand it, it can be not possible to clearly identify
> someone as Asperger in medieval time. You can presume
> someone was, but not prove it.

It depends, I think. When I saw the docudrama Genius, about Albert Einstein, I recognized autistic traits, like him forbidding his spouse to talk to him, unless asked, and even having her sign a contract for that. But I don't know how factual that is. Same might be true for the way he neglected his son.

Fun fact: The first time I heard about Asperger's was when the media wrote in that way about Putin.

Proof depends on how you see thing. In DSM terms, having a particular group of traits, or symptoms, is regarded as proof, but I doubt if we know enough about the real old guys like Cavendish and Newton to apply that.

Regards,

Enno