Plantagenet bastards, specifically Arthur and his sister Elizabeth
Leo van de Pas
Elizabeth suo jure Baroness de Lisle, eventually sole heir of her niece,
married (1)about 1495 Edmund Dudley, the well-known Minister of Henry VII, who was beheaded on Tower Hill, 18 August 1510. She married 2ndly 12 November 1511, Arthur Plantagenet, illegitimate son of Edward IV. His mother's name is unknown; by some said to be the "Lady Elizabeth Lucy," by others the notorious Jane Shore, and by others one Elizabeth Waite, he himself at first known as Arthur Waite.
Interesting footnote : The Wayte family were seated at Lee Marks and Segenworth in Titchfield, Hants, from the 14th century. In 1538/9 John Wayte leased the manors to his kinsman, Arthur Plantagenet, Viscount Lisle (V.C.H. Hants. vol iii, pp. 228-229).
According to Cahiers de Saint Louis, pages 107 and 108.
Edward IV had two children by Elisabeth Luci (Elisabeth the continental spelling). And by Jane Shore he had another bastard Peterkin Plantagenet, bastard of England, who married in 1495.
Both Arthur and his full sister, Elizabeth, are named as Plantagenet, bastard of England. Elizabeth married a Sir Thomas Lomley.
However, Cahiers de Saint Louis was a work in progress and on page 880 changes the above. Elisabeth Waite (previously mentioned as Elisabeth Luci) had only one child by Edward IV, Arthur.
Then there is a Grace (no husband) and the previously mentioned Elizabeth, mothered by unknowns. This time this Elizabeth is married to Thomas Lumley, 4th Lord Lumley. Grace and Elizabeth have an ominous footnote: Pour Grace, voir C.Ross, "Edward IV" (London, 1974) page 316, note 2. Quant a Elisabeth mentionnee dans une genealogie du XVIe siecle, mais point dans les documents contemporains; sa filiation demeure donc incertaine.
Back to CP Volume VIII page 274
Son and heir of George Lumley, 3rd Lord Lumley, is
Thomas Lumley, son and heir, is said to have married Elizabeth, bastard daughter of Edward IV, and to have d.v.p. in 1487.
Thomas and Elizabeth are the parents of Richard Lumley, 4th Lord Lumley. A footnote goes into details about this Elizabeth, mainly conjecture.
Back to Arthur. In the Plantagenet Encyclopeadia, editor Elizabeth Hallam, page 160, there are some biographical notes. Illegitimate son of Edward IV of England and Elizabeth Lucy, daughter of Thomas Wayte, a minor Hampshire gentleman. Their affair lasted from around Edward's accession in 1461 to his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville in 1464.
I think we can presume that Arthur's mother was a Mrs. Elizabeth Lucy, nee Wayte.
Gerald Paget, in his work on the ancestors of HRH Prince Charles,
records as ancestors
P 49813 Thomas Lumley (no title) Also numb P58259 and Q 98811
P 49814 Elizabeth Plantagenet Also numbers P58260 and Q 98812
Q 99627 Edward IV, King of England
Q 99628 Elizabeth Lucy (mistress)
As has been said before, pity Paget did not supply sources.
Well, this adds a little. Hope others can add from primary sources.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Gryphon801
which is a collection of letters originally intended to be used at Lord Lisle's
treason trial? The commentary is most interesting.
ADRIANC...@aol.com
writes:
From memory, I think Muriel St. Clare Byrne work shows that Arthur Viscount
Lisle was released from the Tower, and died shortly afterwards. I don't
think he died in the tower as per Doug's post.
regards
Adrian
Gryphon801
Douglas Richardson
As I recall, the editor of the Lisle Letters states that prior to the
time of his death, Sir Arthur Plantagenet was being held prisoner in
the Tower of London. His release was ordered by King Henry VIII.
However, he died in the Tower before he was actually released from
custody. If Sir Arthur's death was elsewhere than the Tower, I'd
appreciate knowing about it. Please cite sources if possible.
DR
ADRIANC...@aol.com wrote in message news:<106.1a186a...@aol.com>...
ADRIANC...@aol.com
Yes, you are quite right (CP VIII p 67 where it is said that he died in the
Tower on hearing of his release). I once read through much of Muriel St.
Clare Byrne "Lisle Letters" (particularly those connected to the Browne's),
but don't have them accessible now. I remembered that he was pardoned but
was mistaken that he died elsewhere. As it happens, I have found that I have
kept the relevant extract (I think around vol 6 p 132)
"... He died in the tower on Wednesday 1st March 1542 {possibly the 22nd of
Feb} The King had granted him a pardon on the previous 17th February! The
Tower had been cleared, ie by execution, of most of the men of inportance, in
the previous year, but was Corbett and Browne still there?"
CP gives 3 March as his date of death.
regards,
Adrian
Brant Gibbard
>From memory, I think Muriel St. Clare Byrne work shows that Arthur Viscount
>Lisle was released from the Tower, and died shortly afterwards. I don't
>think he died in the tower as per Doug's post.
>
The quote from Sandford's "Genealogical History of the Kings of England"
that St. Clare Byrne supplies in the short version of her work implies
that he did die before he could actually be released from the Tower:
"His Innocency, after much search appearing, the King sent him his Ring
from off his own Finger, with such comfortable Expressions, that he
immoderately receiving so great a pressure of joy, his Heart was
overcharged therewith, and the Night following (viz. 3 Martii An. 33
H.8) he yielded up the Ghost; which makes it observable that this King's
Mercy was as fatal as his Judgements. His Body was honourably buried in
the Tower of London."
Brant Gibbard
bgib...@ca.inter.net
http://pages.ca.inter.net/~bgibbard/gen/
Toronto, ON