The oldest family in Europe?
Lobanoff de Rostoff
Hello, everyone! My name is Orlando Mark Lobanoff de Rostoff. I looked
through Moncreiffe and "The Chronicle of Danish Kings", counted it up,
and discovered that my genealogy has sixty generations in a straight
male line. Am I to understand that my family is the oldest in Europe?
Here is my line of descent: Prince Orlando Mark Lobanov de Rostov
(born 1954) - Pr Andrey Lobanoff de Rostoff (born 1917) - Pr
Konstantin Lobanov-Rostovsky - Pr Anatoly L.-R. - Pr Grigory L.-R.
(1820-72) - Pr Alexey L.-R. (1786-1848) - Pr Alexander L.-R.
(1754-1830) - Pr Ivan L.-R. (1731-91) - Pr Ivan L.-R. - Pr Yakov L.-R.
(+1732) - boyar Pr Ivan L.-R. (+1664) - Pr Ivan L.-R. "Goat's Horn"
(+1639) - Pr Yury L.-R. - Pr Ivan Lobanov-Rostovski (+1595) - Pr Ivan
Rostovsky "Loban" - Pr Alexander Rostovsky - Prince Ivan of Rostov -
Prince Vladimir of Rostov (+1409) - Konstantin II of Rostov (+1365; m.
daughter of Ivan I of Moscow) - Vasily II of Rostov (+1316) -
Konstantin I of Rostov (1254-1307) - Boris of Rostov (+1277) - Saint
Vasily I of Rostov (murdered 11.03.1238 by Batu-Khan; m. daughter of
St. Michael of Chernigov) - Konstantin of Vladimir
(18.05.1186-02.02.1218) - Vsevolod III of Vladimir and Kiev
(1154-1212) - Yury of Suzdal and Kiev (1090-1157) - Vladimir II
Monomachos of Kiev (1053-1125) - Vsevolod I of Pereyaslavl and Kiev
(1030-1093; m. daughter of Emperor Constantinos IX of Byzantium) -
Yaroslav I the Wise of Kiev (978-1054; m. daughter of Saint Olaf of
Sweden) - Vladimir I the Great of Kiev (948-1015) - Svyatoslav I of
Kiev (942-972) - Ingvar of Novgorod and Kiev (877-946) - Rorik of
Dorestad (ca 810 - 879) - Hemming of Jutland (795-837) - Halfdan of
Jutland (+810) - Harald of Jutland (750-804) - Eysten the Fart of
Raumarike - Halfdan "White Leg" of Uppland (born before 710) - Olaf
"The Tree Hewer" of Vermaland (+sacrificed to Woden 710) - Ingiald
"the Wicked" of Sweden - Onund "Roadmaker" - Ynvar Eystenson - Eysten
Adilson - Adils Ottarson - Ottar Egilson - Egil Onson - On the Old
Yorundson - Jorund Yngveson - Yngve Alricson - Alric Agneson - Agne
Dagson - Dag Dygveson - Dygve Domarson - Domar Domaldson - Domald
Visburson - Visbur Vinlandeson - Vinlande Swegdeson - Swegde Fjolneson
- Yngve Njordson - Njord of Noatun, "1st man to be called king in
Swedish tongue". Does any other family have a longer record? Anybody
knows?
Leo van de Pas
To me, your message has been one of the most interesting for a very long
time.
I enjoyed double checking your information, first in Genealogisches Handbuch
des Adels,
Fuerstliche Haeuser 1961, and then Europaische Stammtafeln Neue Folfe volume
II.
There is one generation which links the two sources but that link is in
neither.
Thanks very much for sharing this with us.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
See in between
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lobanoff de Rostoff" <sup...@centrum.cz>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 6:22 PM
Subject: The oldest family in Europe?
> The oldest family in Europe?
>
> Hello, everyone! My name is Orlando Mark Lobanoff de Rostoff. I looked
> through Moncreiffe and "The Chronicle of Danish Kings", counted it up,
> and discovered that my genealogy has sixty generations in a straight
> male line. Am I to understand that my family is the oldest in Europe?
> Here is my line of descent: Prince Orlando Mark Lobanov de Rostov
> (born 1954) - Pr Andrey Lobanoff de Rostoff (born 1917) - Pr
> Konstantin Lobanov-Rostovsky - Pr Anatoly L.-R. - Pr Grigory L.-R.
> (1820-72) - Pr Alexey L.-R. (1786-1848) - Pr Alexander L.-R.
> (1754-1830) - Pr Ivan L.-R. (1731-91) - Pr Ivan L.-R. - Pr Yakov L.-R.
> (+1732) - boyar Pr Ivan L.-R. (+1664) - Pr Ivan L.-R. "Goat's Horn"
> (+1639) - Pr Yury L.-R. - Pr Ivan Lobanov-Rostovski (+1595) - Pr Ivan
> Rostovsky "Loban"
====This Ivan Rostovsky "Loban" is the oldest generation in Fuerstliche
Haeuser,
in the introduction it does tell that the family descends from Rurik.
- Pr Alexander Rostovsky
=====This Alexander does not appear in either source
- Prince Ivan of Rostov -
===He is recorded in Europaische Stammtafeln, Volume II Tafel 142. He is
recorded as having married Wjera von Rostow but no children are recorded,
nor, as with others, is an indication given that they had descendants in the
male line. For instance, by the son of a first cousin is recorded that the
descendants became extinct in three generations.
> Prince Vladimir of Rostov (+1409) - Konstantin II of Rostov (+1365; m.
> daughter of Ivan I of Moscow) - Vasily II of Rostov (+1316) -
> Konstantin I of Rostov (1254-1307) - Boris of Rostov (+1277) - Saint
> Vasily I of Rostov (murdered 11.03.1238 by Batu-Khan; m. daughter of
> St. Michael of Chernigov) - Konstantin of Vladimir
> (18.05.1186-02.02.1218) - Vsevolod III of Vladimir and Kiev
> (1154-1212) - Yury of Suzdal and Kiev (1090-1157) - Vladimir II
> Monomachos of Kiev (1053-1125) - Vsevolod I of Pereyaslavl and Kiev
> (1030-1093; m. daughter of Emperor Constantinos IX of Byzantium) -
> Yaroslav I the Wise of Kiev (978-1054; m. daughter of Saint Olaf of
> Sweden) - Vladimir I the Great of Kiev (948-1015) - Svyatoslav I of
> Kiev (942-972) - Ingvar of Novgorod and Kiev (877-946) - Rorik of
> Dorestad (ca 810 - 879)
====Europaische Stammtafeln does not give any parents for Rorik/Rurik
PDel...@aol.com
> The Montainard family of France claims, in proven filiation to be the oldest
> recorded family of France, going back to the Powerful Domčne dynasty of the
> Jura recorded as far back as 700ad and with proven filiation to that date.
> There are other French families that 'claim' a direct Merovingian descent
> but the filiation stops at around 960AD , such as the Polignacs. The
> Sapiehas of Poland descend from the original grand dukes of Lithuania whose
> genealogy also goes back in the mists of time. I believe one or two Italian
> families claim a Roman descent, The Valperga di Masino claim , and this
> seems fairly sure, that they descend from the House of Ivrea ancestress of
> the whole of Europe. Some Lobanoff-Rostovskys were at school with me also
> in the mists of time!
> kind regards
>
Denis Beauregard
soc.genealogy.medieval:
>> families claim a Roman descent, The Valperga di Masino claim , and this
>> seems fairly sure, that they descend from the House of Ivrea ancestress of
>> the whole of Europe. Some Lobanoff-Rostovskys were at school with me also
>> in the mists of time!
I descent from the VUALPERGUE that could be the same VALPERGA.
My line begins/ends with:
6. Antoine de BELLEAU, buried 19-03-1641 St-André-des-Arts,
Paris, cm 21-12-1600 (Avril, not. Montdidier (Moselle)
7. Catherine de VUALPERGUE
Any connection with the Valperga di Masino family ?
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard http://www.genealogie.com (français)
/\/ Genealogy Web site: http://www.francogene.com (English)
|\ >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
/ | Relationniste - www.sgcf.com - 60 ans en 2003 !
oo oo Société généalogique canadienne-française
The Williams Family
Sadly part of this pedigree is invented. The true line breaks at your "Rorik of Dorestad (ca 810 - 879)" who is usually known in English sources as "Rurik, Prince of Novgorod". According to the Russian
Primary Chronicle he died in the year 879 and had brothers named Sineus of Beloozero & Truvor of Izborsk who both died in 862. His brothers are often regarded as fictitious however.
Hemming, Halfdan & Harold of Jutland I am not familiar with and I suppose they are probably late inventions. After that however the pedigree is entirely in agreement with the mythical genealogy of the
Yngling dynasty as given in "The Saga of the Ynglings" contained in Snorri Sturluson's _Heimskringla_. Despite the break I'd say it's still very impressive to have a male line pedigree going back that far. I
wouldn't mind being a Rurikid prince myself <g>!
Right off hand I suspect that the oldest male line in Europe is that of the Princes Bagration in Armenia, Georgia & Russia who descend in the male line from Smbat I Bagratouni who floruit about A.D. 314.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
>
>
> The oldest family in Europe?
>
> Hello, everyone! My name is Orlando Mark Lobanoff de Rostoff. I looked
> through Moncreiffe and "The Chronicle of Danish Kings", counted it up,
> and discovered that my genealogy has sixty generations in a straight
> male line. Am I to understand that my family is the oldest in Europe?
> Here is my line of descent: Prince Orlando Mark Lobanov de Rostov
> (born 1954) - Pr Andrey Lobanoff de Rostoff (born 1917) - Pr
> Konstantin Lobanov-Rostovsky - Pr Anatoly L.-R. - Pr Grigory L.-R.
> (1820-72) - Pr Alexey L.-R. (1786-1848) - Pr Alexander L.-R.
> (1754-1830) - Pr Ivan L.-R. (1731-91) - Pr Ivan L.-R. - Pr Yakov L.-R.
> (+1732) - boyar Pr Ivan L.-R. (+1664) - Pr Ivan L.-R. "Goat's Horn"
> (+1639) - Pr Yury L.-R. - Pr Ivan Lobanov-Rostovski (+1595) - Pr Ivan
> Rostovsky "Loban" - Pr Alexander Rostovsky - Prince Ivan of Rostov -
> Prince Vladimir of Rostov (+1409) - Konstantin II of Rostov (+1365; m.
> daughter of Ivan I of Moscow) - Vasily II of Rostov (+1316) -
> Konstantin I of Rostov (1254-1307) - Boris of Rostov (+1277) - Saint
> Vasily I of Rostov (murdered 11.03.1238 by Batu-Khan; m. daughter of
> St. Michael of Chernigov) - Konstantin of Vladimir
> (18.05.1186-02.02.1218) - Vsevolod III of Vladimir and Kiev
> (1154-1212) - Yury of Suzdal and Kiev (1090-1157) - Vladimir II
> Monomachos of Kiev (1053-1125) - Vsevolod I of Pereyaslavl and Kiev
> (1030-1093; m. daughter of Emperor Constantinos IX of Byzantium) -
> Yaroslav I the Wise of Kiev (978-1054; m. daughter of Saint Olaf of
> Sweden) - Vladimir I the Great of Kiev (948-1015) - Svyatoslav I of
> Kiev (942-972) - Ingvar of Novgorod and Kiev (877-946) - Rorik of
> Dorestad (ca 810 - 879) - Hemming of Jutland (795-837) - Halfdan of
Gordon Banks
unless you are claiming some title? I'm sure many of us here also descend
from Rurik through other lines. Rurik isn't my earliest documented
ancestor, so why wouldn't those other families be considered older? Only
the male line counts?
Todd A. Farmerie
> Hello,
>
> Sadly part of this pedigree is invented. The true line breaks at your "Rorik of Dorestad (ca 810 - 879)" who is usually known in English sources as "Rurik, Prince of Novgorod". According to the Russian
> Primary Chronicle he died in the year 879 and had brothers named Sineus of Beloozero & Truvor of Izborsk who both died in 862. His brothers are often regarded as fictitious however.
> Hemming, Halfdan & Harold of Jutland I am not familiar with and I suppose they are probably late inventions. After that however the pedigree is entirely in agreement with the mythical genealogy of the
> Yngling dynasty as given in "The Saga of the Ynglings" contained in Snorri Sturluson's _Heimskringla_. Despite the break I'd say it's still very impressive to have a male line pedigree going back that far. I
> wouldn't mind being a Rurikid prince myself <g>!
Actually, Hemming, Halfdan, and Harald are attested (although it
would require more effort than it is worth for me to see if they
are strung together right, and if the gates given them bear any
approximation to reality), it is just that the Rurik they connect
to is probably not the Kiev founder, and the Inglinga descent is
grafted on without support (or good reason).
For the attested danes of this period, see:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~medieval/danking.htm
taf
Jack Straw
chronicles, here is a short abstract. Rorik of Jutland must have been
born about 810, inherited Friesland demesne from his father Hemming
(it had been granted by Emperor Louis I), captured Dorestad in 850,
captured Haithabu in 857, looted Bremen in 859, lost all his
territories in 860, and then disappeared. According to the Russian
Primary Chronicle, Russian Rurik arrived to Slavic lands with his kin
from the land of "rus" (identified by Adam of Bremen with Jutland) in
862, built the fortress of Ladoga, and then ruled in Novgorod. Nestor
wrong translated Scandinavian words 'sine hus' (with house) and 'tru
voring' (with loyal guard) as the names of Rorik's brothers: Sineus
and Truvor. Archaeologists discovered that the settlement of Ladoga
was really built about this time, and that earthenware, household
utensils, etc were imported from Jutland! Rorik of Jutland reappeared
in Frankish chronicles in 870, when his Friesland demesne was returned
to him by Charles The Bold; in 882 he is already mentioned as dead.
Nestor places the death of Russian Rurik at 879. Quite striking for a
coincidence!
If you have neither Heimskringla nor Moncreiffe on your bookshelf, you
may click here - http://www.macdonald50.freeserve.co.uk - to learn
that Rorik's first cousin Godfrey Haraldson was married to Gisela
(born about 860, +after 908), daughter of Western Emperor Lothar II.
Their daughter Reinhilde (+917) was married about 900 to Dietrich II,
duke of Saxony.
As for Bagratids, I always thought that their earliest proven ancestor
is Smbat VI, who died in 775
(http://www.geocities.com/tfboettger/russian/princes.htm).
Henry Soszynski
The line given below is in "Les Familles
Princieres de L'Ancien Empire de Russie" vol.2, by Jacques Ferrand,
1998, Paris.
aka Kozii Rog, I presume, what is the significance of this sobriquet?
>> (+1639) - Pr Yury L.-R. - Pr Ivan Lobanov-Rostovski (+1595) - Pr Ivan
>> Rostovsky "Loban"
fl.1496
>====This Ivan Rostovsky "Loban" is the oldest generation in Fuerstliche
>Haeuser, in the introduction it does tell that the family descends from Rurik.
>
> - Pr Alexander Rostovsky
>=====This Alexander does not appear in either source
>
>- Prince Ivan of Rostov -
His sobriquet was bychok, and was ancestor of Bychkov and Lastkin and
Britij families (extinct).
>===He is recorded in Europaische Stammtafeln, Volume II Tafel 142. He is
>recorded as having married Wjera von Rostow but no children are recorded,
>nor, as with others, is an indication given that they had descendants in the
>male line. For instance, by the son of a first cousin is recorded that the
>descendants became extinct in three generations.
>
Cheers,
Henry
INDIAN PRINCELY STATES
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.uq.net.au/~zzhsoszy/ips/
Arthur Murata
with his recent ancestors. If that is true (and I have no
reason to doubt it - looks good to me), male line pedigree
becomes critical in the customs of most European nations.
England is one of the rare exceptions to the rule where a
female may be regarded as the legitimate heir to a throne.
Most European systems did not permit this and in instances
where a female might have been the legitimate heir, she was
often prevented from taking the throne or from keeping it.
Best, Bronwen
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Don Stone
[snip]
> As for Bagratids, I always thought that their earliest proven ancestor
> is Smbat VI, who died in 775
> (http://www.geocities.com/tfboettger/russian/princes.htm).
Toumanoff (1990, Table 14) uses solid lines to give the agnatic ancestry of
Smbat VII (d. 775) back to a Varaz-Tirots who flourished in the 6th century.
Then nine more generations are given, many of them connected via dashed lines,
the earliest being Smbat I, the 4th-century (probable) Orontid prince
mentioned by Kelsey Williams.
Toumanoff, Cyrille. 1990. _Les dynasties de la Caucasie chrétienne de
l'Antiquité jusqu'au XIXe siècle. Tables généalogiques et chronoligiques_.
Rome, 1990.
-- Don Stone
Lobanoff de Rostoff
check out my descent from Genghis Chan, if such things amuse you:
Prince Orlando Mark (born 1954) - Pr Andrey Lobanoff de Rostoff (born
1917) - Pr Konstantin Lobanov-Rostovsky - Pr Anatoly L.-R. - Pr
Grigory L.-R. (1820-72) - Pr Alexey L.-R. (1786-1848) - Pr Alexander
Ivan L.-R.) - Pr Alexander Kourakine (1697-1749) - Pr Boris K.
(1677-1727; m. Axinia Lopoukhin, sister-in-law of Peter I) - boyar Pr
Ivan K (+1681) - boyar Pr Grigory K. (+1661) - boyar Pr Simeon K.
(+1626) - boyar Pr Andrey K. (+1615) - boyar Pr Pyotr K. (+1575) - Pr
Andrey Boulgakoff "Kuraka" (+after 1521) - boyar Pr Ivan Patrikeev
"Boulgak" (+1498) - boyar Pr Vasily Patrikeev - boyar Pr Yury
Patrikeevich (+after 1437) - Prince Patrikey of Zwenihorod - Prince
Alexander of Podolia - Maria of the Horde (m. Narimund Gediminovich of
Lithuania, +1348) - Toqta, 8th Khan of the Blue Horde (+1312; m. Maria
of Byzantium) - Munkge Temir, 5th Khan of the Blue Horde (+1280) -
Toku Khan - Batu Khan, 1st Khan of the Blue Horde (+1257) - Juchi Khan
(1182-1227) - Temujin, or Genghis Khan (1162-1227)
Well, if straight male lines do not count nowadays, each person whose
grandparents were born in Europe may be rightfully regarded as
descendant of some Charlemagne, Clovis, or Constantine the Great. Look
at this:
...Pr Andrey Boulgakoff "Kuraka" (+after 1521) - boyar Pr Ivan
Patrikeev "Boulgak" (+1498) - boyar Pr Vasily Patrikeev - Anna of
Moscow (m. Pr Yury Patrikeevich of Lithuania) - Eudoxia of Suzdal
(+1407; m. Dmitry I of Moscow) - Dmitry III of Vladimir and Suzdal
(1322-84) - Konstantin I of Suzdal (+1355) - Vasily I of Suzdal
(1264-1309) - Dobroslava of Galicia (m. 1250 Andrey I of Vladimir and
Suzdal) - King Daniil I of Galicia (1201-64) - Roman I of Galicia and
Volynia (+1205) - Agness of Poland (1137-81; m. Mstislav I of Volynia)
- Boleslaw II Wrymouth of Poland (1085-1138) - Wladislaw I of Poland
(1043-1102) - Dobronega of Kiev (1012-87; m. Kasimir I of Poland) -
Princess of Ohningen (m. Vladimir I the Great of Kiev) - Rechilde of
Germany (+999; m. Count Kuno of Ohningen) - Edith of England (m.
Emperor Otto I the Great) - Edward I of England (871-924) - Alfred I
of England (849-901) - AEthelwulf of England (795-858) - Egbert of
England (775-837) - Princess of Kent (m. Elmund of Kent) - Ethelbert
II of Kent (+762) - Wihtred of Kent (670-725) - Egbert of Kent
(641-673) - Eorcenbert of Kent (624-664) - Eadbald of Kent (582-640) -
Berthe of Paris (541-580; m. Ethelbert of Kent) - Charibert of Paris
(ca 520-568) - Chlotar of Soissons (ca 497-561) - Clovis I of Franks
(466-511)...
Any comments are welcome.
With regards, Orlando
Andrey Frizyuk
If the earlier princes of Rostov are not incorporated in your sources,
perhaps I may help you. The following genealogy (copied from the
Russian Genealogical Book of Prince Dolgorukov) illustrates division
of the House of Rostov onto separate branches:
1. Prince Vasily of Rostov
1.1 Pr Fyodor of Rostov-Ustretenski (+1331)
1.1.1 Pr Andrey of Rostov-Ustretenski (+1380 Kulikov Field)
1.1.1.1 Pr Ivan Rostovski; ancestor of Princes Golenin-Rostovski
(extinct)
1.1.1.2 Pr Fyodor Rostovski
1.1.1.2.1 Pr Alexander "Shchepa"; ancestor of Princes
Shchepin-Rostovski (extant)
1.1.1.2.2 Pr Dmitry "Priimok"; ancestor of Princes Gvozdev-,
Bakhteyarov-, and Priimkov-Rostovski (all extinct)
1.2 Pr Konstantin of Rostov-Borisoglebski (+1365)
1.2.1 St Alexander, bishop of Tver (+1409)
1.2.1.1 Pr Andrey Rostovsky (+1417)
1.2.1.1.1 Pr Ivan Rostovsky "Bryukhaty"; ancestor of Princes
Khokholkov-, Katyrev-, and Buinosov-Rostovsky (all extinct)
1.2.1.1.2 Pr Ivan Rostovsky "Yan"; ancestor of Princes Yanov- and
Temkin-Rostovski (extinct)
1.2.1.2 Pr Ivan Puzhbolsky; ancestor of Princes Puzhbolski (extinct)
1.2.2 Pr Vladimir of Rostov-Borisoglebski
1.2.2.1 Pr Ivan Rostovsky
1.2.2.1.1 Pr Alexander Rostovsky
1.2.2.1.1.1 Pr Vasily Rostovsky "Lastka"; ancestor of Princes
Lastkin-Rostovsky (extinct)
1.2.2.1.1.2 Pr Mikhail Rostovsky "Kasatka"; ancestor of Princes
Kasatkin-Rostovsky (extant)
1.2.2.1.1.3 Pr Ivan Rostovsky "Loban"; ancestor of Princes
Lobanov-Rostovsky (extant)
1.2.2.1.1.4 Pr Fyodor Rostovsky "Goluboy"; ancestor of Princes
Goluboy-Rostovsky (extinct)
1.2.2.1.2 Pr Dmitry Rostovsky "Brity"; ancestor of Princes Bychkov-
and Brity-Rostovsky (extinct?)
Best wishes, Andrey
Leo van de Pas
Leo
===========In Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, Fuerstliche Haeuser, 1961,
page 464. Here is recorded the "Lobanow-Rostowsky" family, in the second
generation displayed we find Iwan Prince Lobanow-Rostowsky and he married
Princess Maria Temkin-Rostowsky, daughter of Wassili Iwanowitch----would
Iwan, implied in the very last name, perhaps be the Ivan Tostovsky "Yan"
above recorded uner 1.2.1.1.2 ?
Many thanks for this addition.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
> 1.2.1.2 Pr Ivan Puzhbolsky; ancestor of Princes Puzhbolski (extinct)
Leo van de Pas
Many thanks for more interesting information. I haven't started to compare
as yet, but no doubt, Rafal Prinke and others, will point out that Genghis
Khan was not the father of Juchi Khan. Genghis Khan's wife Borke had been
kidnapped and when found she was pregnant
However, Genghis Khan loved his wife and her son, and brought Juchi up as
one of his own.
Never mind what people said about 'straight lines', apart from the genetical
implication, I think they are very special, especially when they go back so
far. And now I am going to check the rest of the information you
supplied---many thanks for these.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lobanoff de Rostoff" <sup...@centrum.cz>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sam Sloan
Family Tree of Genghis Khan on my website. Take a look at
http://www.shamema.com/pafg98.htm#2594
I would like to know where you get these facts from.
Sam Sloan
At 01:17 AM 2/2/2003 +1100, Leo van de Pas wrote:
>Dear Orlando,
>Many thanks for more interesting information. I haven't started to compare
>as yet, but no doubt, Rafal Prinke and others, will point out that Genghis
>Khan was not the father of Juchi Khan. Genghis Khan's wife Borke had been
>kidnapped and when found she was pregnant
>However, Genghis Khan loved his wife and her son, and brought Juchi up as
>one of his own.
>
>Never mind what people said about 'straight lines', apart from the genetical
>implication, I think they are very special, especially when they go back so
>far. And now I am going to check the rest of the information you
>supplied---many thanks for these.
>Best wishes
>Leo van de Pas
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lobanoff de Rostoff" <sup...@centrum.cz>
>To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
>Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 12:07 PM
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
>For those of you who's not familiar with Russian and Frankish
>chronicles, here is a short abstract. Rorik of Jutland must have been
>born about 810, inherited Friesland demesne from his father Hemming
There is no proof of the name of Rorik's father. All that is known is
that he was a "nepos" of Harald, and making Rorik a son of Hemming is
only one of the possibilities that would fit with that information.
>(it had been granted by Emperor Louis I), captured Dorestad in 850,
>captured Haithabu in 857, looted Bremen in 859, lost all his
>territories in 860, and then disappeared. According to the Russian
>Primary Chronicle, Russian Rurik arrived to Slavic lands with his kin
>from the land of "rus" (identified by Adam of Bremen with Jutland) in
>862, built the fortress of Ladoga, and then ruled in Novgorod. Nestor
>wrong translated Scandinavian words 'sine hus' (with house) and 'tru
>voring' (with loyal guard) as the names of Rorik's brothers: Sineus
>and Truvor. Archaeologists discovered that the settlement of Ladoga
>was really built about this time, and that earthenware, household
>utensils, etc were imported from Jutland! Rorik of Jutland reappeared
>in Frankish chronicles in 870, when his Friesland demesne was returned
>to him by Charles The Bold; in 882 he is already mentioned as dead.
>Nestor places the death of Russian Rurik at 879. Quite striking for a
>coincidence!
The only coincidence here is that the two men had the same name.
There is no good reason to believe that they were the same person.
>If you have neither Heimskringla nor Moncreiffe on your bookshelf, you
>may click here - http://www.macdonald50.freeserve.co.uk - to learn
>that Rorik's first cousin Godfrey Haraldson was married to Gisela
>(born about 860, +after 908), daughter of Western Emperor Lothar II.
>Their daughter Reinhilde (+917) was married about 900 to Dietrich II,
>duke of Saxony.
The claimed parentage of Reinhilde is no more than a guess based on
the fact that she is said to be of Frisian/Danish descent. There is
no good evidence for her parentage.
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
>Jack Straw wrote:
>[snip]
> > As for Bagratids, I always thought that their earliest proven ancestor
> > is Smbat VI, who died in 775
> > (http://www.geocities.com/tfboettger/russian/princes.htm).
>
>Toumanoff (1990, Table 14) uses solid lines to give the agnatic ancestry of
>Smbat VII (d. 775) back to a Varaz-Tirots who flourished in the 6th century.
The use of "solid lines" by Toumanoff in his tables does not
necessarily mean that the relationship is proven. Keep in mind the
example of the princes of Siunia, in which Toumanoff gives a dozen
consecutive generations within the span of a single century, all with
"solid" lines.
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart Baldwin
Williams Family) wrote:
> Right off hand I suspect that the oldest male line
>in Europe is that of the Princes Bagration in Armenia,
>Georgia & Russia who descend in the male line from
>Smbat I Bagratouni who floruit about A.D. 314.
But there are broken links in that line that are filled in by no more
than guesswork. We have discussed this question on a number of
occasions in this newsgroup, and I have yet to see a convincing
challenger to the various Irish lines on this question.
Stewart Baldwin
Arthur Murata
in this news group. It was a pleasure to read your posts.
In the case of descent from Charlemagne, there are, of
course, no known direct male lines extant today. I don't
know if people in Europe enjoy tracing their various lines
through female descendants of Charlemagne, but here in
America people get excited about such things. One time I
tried to trace how many distinct links were in my ancestry
that could be traced to Charlemagne and got hopelessly
confused at about 18 (due to the multiple intermarriages
and re-marriages of various individuals).
For a country that ostensibly was abandoning the entire
concept of hereditary leadership, Americans are intensely
interested in tracing their ancestors to royalty. My own
theory is that in leaving their European cultures behind,
they deliberately reinvented themselves as "Americans" and
did not (usually) pass on their ancestral languages and
customs to their children (unless they were English or, in
some parts of the United States, Spanish).
I am also more than half American Indian and, from that
viewpoint, see immigrants to the USA with the eyes of the
conquered as well as the eyes of the conqueror. I believe
that Europeans did great damage to their own spirits and to
the unborn generations by trying to reinvent themselves as
an entirely new kind of person ("American") when it would
have been healthier to maintain bicultural ways. Today we
find our young people killing each other on the streets -
our young people of all races and nationalities - because
they find it easier to identify with a street gang than
with their own ancestors. Typically Americans are happy to
trace their ancestry to the first immigrant rather than to
the earliest proven person somewhere else in the world.
Best, Bronwen Edwards
Igor Sklar
other Prince of Jutland of this name? Doesn't it strike you that the
only prominent Rurik in the family of Danish kings lived exactly at
the time described by Nestor?
There are many other indications that Russian Rurik was a viking
konung. Vasily Tatishev, who wrote the first History of Russia (1739),
mentiones that the wife of Rurik (brought by him from Jutland) was one
Ingrid of Norway. He proceeds to tell us that the night before Rurik
was born, his mother had a dream: she saw a luxuriant tree, signifying
long and strong dynasty. But it is the same dream that had Runhilde,
the mother of Harald Fairhair (who founded the Yngling dynasty in
Norway), according to Snorri Sturluson! Apparently, Tatishev (like
Nestor before him) used some Norse sources on life of Hreurikr thad
had been translated into Old Russian very long time ago. They are
supposed to have been lost during the great Moscow fire of 1812.
Regards, Igor
Igor Sklar
not his descendant? And, perhaps, the Moghuls of India are not
Genghisids any more? Does a leisurely talk between several persons
revoke tons of historical evidence and the opinion of Genghis Khan
himself? Would he bring up Juchi and give him the larger part of his
domain, if he had not been sure about his origin?
Ivor West
"Lobanoff de Rostoff" wrote:
> Many thanks to those who took an interest in my
> pedigree. You may also check out my descent from
> Genghis Chan, if such things amuse you.
Talking of amusing descents, it reminds me of the wag who once said
something like, "Why would Lord So-and-so concern himself with a
descent from Genghis Khan when he already has an immortal one from
Dracula?"
Given your Slavonic connections, you must have a perfectly
good descent from Vlad the Impaler yourself -- maybe even from
Desmodus Rotundus.
Ivor West
Rafal T. Prinke
Leo van de Pas wrote:
>Dear Orlando,
>Many thanks for more interesting information. I haven't started to compare
>as yet, but no doubt, Rafal Prinke and others, will point out that Genghis
>Khan was not the father of Juchi Khan. Genghis Khan's wife Borke had been
>kidnapped and when found she was pregnant
Here is a quote from my message of 1 July 2001 (Subject: Re: Possible
issue
with all descents from Ghengis Khan):
> Indeed, it is quite clear from the _Secret history of the Mongols_,
> section 254-255 (I hope this is canonical, as my edition is
> a direct translation into Polish), that it was well known by
> the contemporaries that Jochi was not a biological son of Ghengis.
> As you say, his father was probably Chilger the Strong of the Merkits.
>
> As the _Secret history_ is a contemporary (or near contemporary)
> source (although known only from a 14th c. copy) and was written
> for the use of the khans, there can be little doubt about it.
And the other (even more critical) link is this:
>> Prince Patrikey of Zwenihorod - Prince
>> Alexander of Podolia - Maria of the Horde (m. Narimund Gediminovich of
>> Lithuania, +1348) - Toqta, 8th Khan of the Blue Horde (+1312;
And my appropriate comments of 21 Jun 2001 (Re: Genghis Khan to Franz
Josef of Liechtenstein):
> This link is highly suspect. The only source for "Maria", supposed
> wife of Narymunt Gleb(c1300-1348), duke of Grodno, Pinsk and Polock,
> governor
> of Great Novogrod, is the 18th c. armorial by Kasper Niesiecki, SJ,
> who quotes (vol. 8 p. 168 of the 1841 edition entitled _Herbarz polski_)
> otherwise unknown _Genealogia Jagiellonica_ by one Jan Werner.
> As it is not known from any bibliography, it was probably a MS.
>
> Some authors accepted that claim (Stadnicki, Wolff) - but more
> recent historians think it is unlikely.
>
> The new and definitive genealogical monograph on the Gedyminid
> dynasty by Jan Tegowski (_Pierwsze pokolenia Gedyminowiczow_,
> Poznan-Wroclaw 1999, 320 pp.) discusses the possible wife
> of Narymunt on p. 22-23. Tegowski sums it up stating that
> "the origin of Narymut's wife will remain an unsolved mystery"
> but his favourite (he puts her in the tables in brackets and
> with a question mark) is a daughter of Jurij Danilowic,
> duke of Moscow.
So - we are still "two links away" from a sound descent
from Genghis Khan!
Best regards,
Rafal
Andrey Frizyuk
Here is the family tree of Princes Tyomkin-Rostovsky:
1. Prince Ivan Andreevich Rostovsky "Yan"
1.1 Pr Vasily Rostovsky "Gubka", voevoda 1508
1.1.1 Pr Boris Gubkin-Rostovsky
1.1.1.1 Pr Simeon Gubkin
1.2 Pr Ivan "Tyomka", voevoda, +killed 1516
1.2.1 Yury Tyomkin-Rostovsky, boyar 1549, +1561
1.2.2 Pr Vasily, boyar in Staritsa, +executed 1572
1.2.2.1 Pr Ivan Tyomkin-Rostovsky, voevoda, +executed 1572
1.2.2.2 Pss Maria; m. Pr Ivan Ivanovich LOBANOV-ROSTOVSKY
1.2.3 Pr Grigory, voevoda 1562
1.2.3.1 Pr Mikhail, governor of Vologda 1615
1.2.3.1.1 Pr Ivan, boyar 1645, governor of palaces 10.10.1645, +1661
without issue; m. Maria Ivanovna
1.2.3.1.2 Pss Domnika, +07.06.1630; m. Pr Fyodor Ivanovich Mstislavsky
(claimant to the Russian throne in 1598, 1608, 1610)
1.2.4 Pr Simeon
1.2.4.1 Pr Fyodor
1.2.4.1.1 Pr Yakov, steward 1690
1.3 Pr Simeon Yanov-Rostovsky
1.3.1 Pr Pyotr Yanov
1.4 Pr Dmitry Yanov-Rostovsky
1.4.1 Pr Ivan Yanov
1.4.2 Pr Nikita, voevoda
1.4.3 Pr Fyodor; ancestor of the noble family Yanov?
Hopefully it helps.
Best, Andrey
Sam Sloan
Tamerlane has never really been the descendant of Genghis Khan.
Sam Sloan
norenxaq
Sam Sloan wrote:
he never claimed he was
GRHa...@aol.com
skla...@yandex.ru writes:
> ? Would he bring up Juchi and give him the larger part of his
> domain, if he had not been sure about his origin?
>
>
Because he loved his wife. I think that we too often make some of these
people, whose publicity has been less than nice, into cruel monsters when
they were actually just people of their time; capable of cruel acts and
loving acts.
Gordon Hale
A Tsar Is Born
> The poster identified himself by the title of Prince, along
> with his recent ancestors. If that is true (and I have no
> reason to doubt it - looks good to me), male line pedigree
> becomes critical in the customs of most European nations.
> England is one of the rare exceptions to the rule where a
> female may be regarded as the legitimate heir to a throne.
> Most European systems did not permit this and in instances
> where a female might have been the legitimate heir, she was
> often prevented from taking the throne or from keeping it.
> Best, Bronwen
This is not accurate. France is one of the rare countries in which
daughters did NOT have a claim to the throne (and there is dispute
about whether or not they could before 1316). In Britain and Iberia
and in every one of the old (pre-1316) noble titles in France and the
HRE, female claims were acknowledged.
If anything, England is unusual in that claims to a noble title
descend (in most cases; there are several exceptions) only in the male
line. (I stress England, because Scotland did not follow this rule.)
But of course the title of Prince in the Russian peerage is usually
confined to male lines as well.
Jean Coeur de Lapin
A Tsar Is Born
> Was the name Hreurikr so popular among Danish konungs? Do you know any
> other Prince of Jutland of this name? Doesn't it strike you that the
> only prominent Rurik in the family of Danish kings lived exactly at
> the time described by Nestor?
That is striking.
> There are many other indications that Russian Rurik was a viking
> konung. Vasily Tatishev, who wrote the first History of Russia (1739),
> mentiones that the wife of Rurik (brought by him from Jutland) was one
> Ingrid of Norway. He proceeds to tell us that the night before Rurik
> was born, his mother had a dream: she saw a luxuriant tree, signifying
> long and strong dynasty. But it is the same dream that had Runhilde,
> the mother of Harald Fairhair (who founded the Yngling dynasty in
> Norway), according to Snorri Sturluson!
That is not.
Tatishev had access to the analytic records of Rurik's mother?
Arlette of Falaise had the same dream when pregnant with William the
Conqueror. At Falaise castle, they will show you the room where she
dreamt it. It is in a tower that dates from the 12th century, a
century later than the dream. Amazing.
In fact, I had a dream like that the other night, and I've never even
been pregnant. What do you suppose it meant? (I'm guessing: too many
late-night snacks.)
> Apparently, Tatishev (like
> Nestor before him) used some Norse sources on life of Hreurikr thad
> had been translated into Old Russian very long time ago. They are
> supposed to have been lost during the great Moscow fire of 1812.
How useful! It might have said anything, and in later writers' minds,
I'm sure it did!
Jean Coeur de Lapin
DocScorpio
<PDel...@aol.com> wrote in message news:1d6.153a92...@aol.com...
> In a message dated 31/01/2003 11:36:27 GMT Standard Time, PDeloriol
writes:
>
>
> > The Montainard family of France claims, in proven filiation to be the
oldest
> > recorded family of France, going back to the Powerful Domčne dynasty of
the
> > Jura recorded as far back as 700ad and with proven filiation to that
date.
> > There are other French families that 'claim' a direct Merovingian
descent
> > but the filiation stops at around 960AD , such as the Polignacs. The
> > Sapiehas of Poland descend from the original grand dukes of Lithuania
whose
> > genealogy also goes back in the mists of time. I believe one or two
Italian
> > families claim a Roman descent, The Valperga di Masino claim , and this
> > seems fairly sure, that they descend from the House of Ivrea ancestress
of
> > the whole of Europe. Some Lobanoff-Rostovskys were at school with me
also
> > in the mists of time!
> > kind regards
> >
>
between the Counts of Pombia (from whom the Valperga are currently believed
to be descended) and the Anscarids, to the best of my knowledge, there is no
actual documentary evidence to support this connection. By "documentary
evidence," I mean a near-contemporary, primary-source document which show
that Adalbert, the earliest known Count of Pombia was the son of Adalbert I,
Marquis and Count of Ivrea. IIRC, Giuseppe Sergi discusses this issue in
several articles published during the 1970's in the "Bollettino
storico-bibliografico subalpino."
Grethe Bachmann
"Igor Sklar" <skla...@yandex.ru> skrev i en meddelelse
news:5a635d65.03020...@posting.google.com...
> Was the name Hreurikr so popular among Danish konungs? Do you know any
> other Prince of Jutland of this name? Doesn't it strike you that the
> only prominent Rurik in the family of Danish kings lived exactly at
> the time described by Nestor?
>
I've got some infos - ( feel free to correct them if you want to.)
I know how fragile different sources can be.
There were more Danish kings with the name Haarek/Hárekr/Rurik
Haarek the Old + ab. 854
Haarek the Young * ab. 845 + ab. 864
Hraerik/Rurik (Frisian king) ab.857 who was a brother of Harald Klak
About Russia:
Rurik in Russia, ab. 879.( Somewhere I've seen him mentioned
as a varjager-chief.) But I think too that he was a viking, according
to the many Scandinavian connections.
His son Igor was married to Helena von Pleskov (Sct. Olga)
(Igor is the name Ingvar in Scandinavia)
Igor's son: Svatoslaw , 942-972 and Malusa had a son,
grossfürst Vladimir , -1085
- from here I'll follow the line to Knud Lavard's wife Ingeborg.
Vladimir's son grossfürst Jaroslav( called Jarisleif in the Sagas) ,
987-1059 , was married to Ingegerd/Anna , a daughter of Olof
Skötkonung of Sweden.
Jaroslav's son grossfürst Vsevolod -1093 was married to a daughter
of the emperor of Bysanz. (was her name Ellislif/Ellisiv/Jelisaveta?)
Vselovod's son grossfürst Vladimir Monomachos, 1050-1125,
was married two times. One wife Gyda was a daughter of Harold
Godwinsson.
Vladimir's son Mstislaw 1. was married to the Swedish princess
Christina, a daughter of kung Inge Stenkilsen.
Their daughter, the fair Ingeborg of Russia was married to Knud Lavard
of Denmark , who was murdered in 1131.
They had four (?) children, the most famous was Valdemar - named
after his grandfather Vladimir Monomachos. So that's how the Russian
name Vladimir came to Denmark.
And this little prince grew up to be king Valdemar the Great of Denmark
NB:
About the name Rurik. As you see it's the same as Haarek/ Haarekr/
Haerik. And I don't know if I am right but I guess Rurik was _Erik_ in
Norway and Sweden.
Hreurikr/Haarek/Haarekr/Haerik/Rurik/Erik might be Henrik in Germany and
Henry in England?
A crazy theory??
By the way - I think it' so exciting to hear about your very old family.
Best wishes
Grethe Bachmann *:)
Chris Bennett
"Grethe Bachmann" <grethe....@mail.tele.dk> wrote in message
news:3e3c4b53$0$236$edfa...@dread14.news.tele.dk...
<snip>
> About Russia:
> Rurik in Russia, ab. 879.( Somewhere I've seen him mentioned
> as a varjager-chief.) But I think too that he was a viking, according
> to the many Scandinavian connections.
> His son Igor was married to Helena von Pleskov (Sct. Olga)
> (Igor is the name Ingvar in Scandinavia)
> Igor's son: Svatoslaw , 942-972 and Malusa had a son,
> grossfürst Vladimir , -1085
It has always struck me that the chronology of the early Rurikids looks
rather stretched. I have never looked into it closely, but my understanding
is that comes from early Russian chronicles, e.g. Nestor, which were written
some time after Christianisation. That is, this chronology is traditional
and unsupported. I'm not aware that either the early Slavs or the Vikings
kept a year count. Does anyone know of any solid grounds for believing that
Rurik actually lived in the mid ninth century rather than, say, the
early-mid tenth?
Chris
Stewart Baldwin
<cjbe...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>It has always struck me that the chronology of the early Rurikids looks
>rather stretched. I have never looked into it closely, but my understanding
>is that comes from early Russian chronicles, e.g. Nestor, which were written
>some time after Christianisation. That is, this chronology is traditional
>and unsupported. I'm not aware that either the early Slavs or the Vikings
>kept a year count. Does anyone know of any solid grounds for believing that
>Rurik actually lived in the mid ninth century rather than, say, the
>early-mid tenth?
Although I do not remember the exact references, I have seen this
chronological problem mentioned before. For that reason, some would
suggest that there was an additional generation between Rurik and
Igor, or even no connection at all.
Given the nature of such noncontemporary chronicles, I assume that
most people who understand the nature of such chronicles would not
expect the events (even if historical) to be exact to the year, but I
don't know if anyone has investigated the kinds of chronological
dislocations (several decades?) that you are suggesting here.
A good related question to ask (for which I don't knoe the answer)
would be: What is the earliest event in the Russian chronicles that
is unambiguously (AND independently) confirmed in other sources?
Stewart Baldwin
Todd A. Farmerie
> On Sun, 02 Feb 2003 19:23:35 GMT, "Chris Bennett"
> <cjbe...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>>It has always struck me that the chronology of the early Rurikids looks
>>rather stretched. I have never looked into it closely, but my understanding
>>is that comes from early Russian chronicles, e.g. Nestor, which were written
>>some time after Christianisation. That is, this chronology is traditional
>>and unsupported. I'm not aware that either the early Slavs or the Vikings
>>kept a year count. Does anyone know of any solid grounds for believing that
>>Rurik actually lived in the mid ninth century rather than, say, the
>>early-mid tenth?
>
>
> Although I do not remember the exact references, I have seen this
> chronological problem mentioned before. For that reason, some would
> suggest that there was an additional generation between Rurik and
> Igor, or even no connection at all.
An example of this is Michel de Taube, in Rome et la Russie avant
l'Invasion des Tatars (IXe-XIIIe Siecles), I. Le Prince Askold,
l'Origine de l'Etat de Kiev et La Premiere Conversion des Russes
(856-882). pp. 7-172. He makes Igor (fl. 930-945), father of
Sviatoslav distinct from, and in the generation after, Igor, son
of Rurik (fl. 862-879).
taf
Chris Bennett
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:3E3D8CBC...@interfold.com...
It is not obvious why we should tinker with the genealogy to make it
consistent with the chronology rather than the other way round. If
anything, it seems to me, the genealogy, being a likely subject for oral
memory, is more likely to be right than the chronology.
CHris
Igor Sklar
Sakharov's "The Diplomacy of Ancient Rus" is my favourite). The major
events are reconstructable from Frankish chronicles, Northern sagas,
and even works of Arabian historians. Among the more accessible
sources you may consult 'De Administrando Imperio' of Constantine
Porphyrogenetus (ruled 912-959) and "The Khazar Correspondence between
Hasdai ibn Sharput and Khazar King Joseph" (The Khazar Empire was
destroyed by Svyatoslav I in 964).
Nestor's chronicle certainly was not the first: he extensively cited
some earlier sources, also known to other chroniclers of pre-Mongolian
period. But he changed some of the dates. Igor was killed when he was
69 year old. Nestor calls him Stary, or "the Old". The famous problem
is Olga "Predslava". If she really married Igor in 903, she bore him
son at the age of 60. There is also much literature on this issue,
from the 18th century on. Apparently, Nestor made a mistake, and she
married Igor not in 903, but in 933. The chronological problems of
Igor's reign are discussed in detail by Lev Gumilyov in his "Ancient
Rus and the Great Steppe". Gumilyov suggests that the dates were
confused by Nestor on purpose.
One more example of Nestor's faulty dating is the Russian siege of
Constantinople in 866. Byzantine chroniclers refer this event to 860.
Apparently, Nestor had his own reasons for forgetting about these 6
years. Other sieges of Constantinople (in 907 and 911) are described
by him in detail, with full texts of treaties concluded. These
treaties provide an exciting glimpse into the Russo-Byzantine
relations at the turn of the centuries. The greatest of all Russian
sieges of Constantinople, lead by Igor in 944, is comprehensively
recorded by Byzantine and Arabian authors.
Sincerely, Igor
Andrew S. Kalinkin
> A good related question to ask (for which I don't know the answer)
> would be: What is the earliest event in the Russian chronicles that
> is unambiguously (AND independently) confirmed in other sources?
I think the first clear case would be Igor's expedition on Constantinople
in 941. Although I am not sure how independent they are, Nestor aparently
used at least one Byzantine chronicle in his description of this campaign.
But it definitely wasn't other awy around.
The treaty between Byzantium and Oleg in 911 is usually regarded as authentic,
but this conclusion is based only on analyze of the text itself, there is no
outside confirmation.
One can also recall the first Russian attack on Constantinople in 860. It is
known primarily by Byzantine sources, but us also mentioned by Nestor, who
names Kievan rulers Askold and Dir and its leaders. Although Nestor erroneusly
dates it 866 instead of 860.
Andrew
Andrew S. Kalinkin
> It is not obvious why we should tinker with the genealogy to make it
> consistent with the chronology rather than the other way round. If
> anything, it seems to me, the genealogy, being a likely subject for oral
> memory, is more likely to be right than the chronology.
The chronology of early Russian rulers is indeed extremely suspicious.
It seems that the author of Primary chronicle just arbitrarily assigned
reign of 33 years both to Oleg(879-912) and Igor(912-945).
I vaguely remember one attempt to find an independent confirmation of
this chronology. IIRC, author claimed that archeological evidence shows
temporary interruption in circulation of Arabian coins in Dniepr basin
in late ninth century. Then he suggested that it was caused by Oleg's
conquest of Kiev and his wrestling this region from the Khazarian
domination.
Anyway, at least Oleg's treaty with Byzantium (dated 911) is widely
regarded as authentic. If so, Rurik as Oleg's predecessor (I think the
sequence of rulers is even more likely to be remembered correctly than
genealogy) can't be pushed further than late ninth or very early tenth
century.
Andrew
Igor Sklar
Here are some lesser known dates from early Russian history:
755/758: "A strong and militant prince of Novgorod the Russian
(=Neapolis, modern Simferopol) named Bravlin with his numerous army
devastated all the (Crimean) mainland from Chersones (=Korsun) to
Bosporus (=Kerch), broke the city gates of Surozh (=Sudak), entered
the city with a sword in hand, entered St. Sophia and plunered
everything inside the church" (Life of St. Stephen of Surozh)
839: Ambassadors from Rus appeared at the court of Emperor Louis I in
Ingelheim, were taken for Swedes, but explained that they were sent by
the Hakan (=King) of Rus (Frankish chronicle)
842: "Every town on the shore of Euxinus was ravaged by a fleet of
Ross (which are Scythian people, coarse and wild, living near the
Northern Taurus). Even the capital (=Constantinople) was under a great
threat" (Scilica Chronicle, Byzantium)
c. 860: Arabian historian Masudi mentiones that the tsar of Kuyaba
(=Kiev) was called Dira (=Dir, killed by Oleg in 882).
18.06.860: People of Rus came upon 300 ships and laid siege to
Constantinople. They raised the siege on 25.06 and returned hope (all
Byzantine chroniclers). It's very probable that the famous treaty "of
907" was concluded during this siege.
867: Patriarch Photius sent missionaries to Kiev that christened many
of its inhabitants (several Byzantine sources)
904: In June the great admiral Ioann defeated the Rus near
Constantinople. They were saved by uncanny powers of their magician
Ross (chronicle of Pseudo-Simeon). "Magician" in Norse is
"Helgu"=Oleg.
909: The Rus wasted the island of Abasun, next year they were defeated
in Azerbaijan (Masudi).
913: 500 ships (=50000 men!) of the Rus were permitted by the
Khazarian Tsar Benjamin to enter the Caspian. They plandered the shore
of Shirvan (=Azarbaijan), but at last were annihilated by Chaliph's
army (Masudi).
920-944: Not a single event recorded by Nestor! Perhaps, there were
some military reverses for Varangians that he chose to omit. As you
know, he was a partisan of Scandinavian party of Svyatopolk II as
opposed to the Greek party of Vladimir Monomakh.
939: The great war between Byzantium and Khazaria. Tsar of the Rus
called Hlgu took the fortress of Samkerc (=Kerch), because there was
no governor at the time. But the venerable Pesah, commander of the
Khazars, delivered Samkerc and all of Crimea, followed Hlgu to Kiev
and overrun all his country (Campridge Anonym, a Jew contemorary of
Nestor). Hlgu was apparently a title (it means "leader" in Norse) of
Igor (="Younger" in Norse), because Oleg was already dead at this
time.
944: New war recorded in Azerbaijan. Great raid of the Rus commander
Sveneld in Byzantium. Igor is killed by Lyut, son of Sveneld (??) The
latter event is very dubious, because Lyut's daughter Malusha was
married to Igor's son Svyatoslav and gave birth to Vladimir the Great.
Lyut's son Dobrynya was governor of Kiev during Vladimir's reign.
After 944 almost each year is recorded either by Nestor or foreign
chroniclers.
946: Nestor says that a prince of Drevlyane wood Olga in 946. How old
was she? According to the 1st Chronicle of Novgorod, she was 52.
09.09.957: Olga (aged 62) is baptised in Constantinople. Nestor says
that Emperor Constantine VII was so charmed by her that he made a
proposal. Perhaps, this event should be moved 10 or 20 years earlier
(exactly the period that Nestor chose to omit as uneventful). In this
case St. Olga would be aged 42-52 at the time of her conversion.
961: Troubled by Olga's conversion into Eastern Christianity, Emperor
Otto I sends his envoy Bishop Adalbert to Kiev. Olga is described by
Western chronicler as 'Regina Rugorum'. Rugi (=Rus?) was an Eastern
Germanic tribe that spoke a language very close to Gothic. Sometimes
they were confused with Goths, in fact. The first mention of Rugi
dates back to 307, when they were described as subjects of Rome.
ca 960: Khazar Tsar Joseph writes to a minister of Chaliph Abdurrahman
III in Cordoba: "I live near the entrance to the river (=Volga) and
would not let the Rus to penetrate Muslim countries with their
ships... If I didn't guard the entrance, they would destroy all the
country of Ismaelites, even with Baghdad."
Cheers, Igor
gill...@gmail.com
After reading about the fascinating geanology medieval of your family I have been searching for a while decendents of the rostoff family.the reason is that I have in my possession a gold powder compact from 1879 that belonged to princess lobanoff de rostoff this very rare piece I got in heritage from my grandfather which he has bought in paris in 1920 from a brocante dealer.
Si if you find any interest for objezts of this kind please let know and I will be happy to send you some pictures of the object for authentication.
Thank you
Kind regards