Giselbert Duke of Lorraine parentage
Doug McDonald
d. 939. His wife is lasted as Gerberga of Saxony.
His father seems to be Reninar or Regnier of Lorraine.
However, there are different mothers.
Ancestral Roots has one Hersent, daughter of Charles the Bald.
Leo van de Pas has one Alberade, parentage unknown. There are references
to this 2002 here, mentioning a post by Settipani, which seems
to be missing in the archives. There is a single item found
on Google that seems to reference ES for this Alberade.
Anybody have anything definitive?
Doug McDonald
Robert
Reginar I, count of Hainaut, and 541. Alberada.
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/at.htm
Not been updated since May 2002 ...
As for it being Hersent, daughter of Charles the Bald, there is no
such daughter mentioned by Christian Settipani in his La Prehistoire
de Capetiens. (Not in table 7, descendants of Charles the Bald.)
Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message news:<cm156f$is1$1...@news.ks.uiuc.edu>...
Peter Stewart
Gislebert was the son of Reginar and Alberada - this is known from a
charter of his wife Gerberga, on her return to Lorraine in February 968
(as the widow by then also of King Louis IV): "Gerberga...Francorum
Regina...pro...remedio senioris nostri piæ memoriæ Gisleberti, suique
parentum, patris scilicet et matris, Rageneri et Albradæ [_Recueil des
historiens des Gaules et de la France_ volume IX p. 666, 'Reginarum
diplomata' no. 5]
His father Reginar probably had another wife before marrying Alberada.
The only direct evidence for this is an undated and possibly forged or
at least miscopied charter, that could not be earlier than 887, for
Saint-Dagobert de Stenay, in which a Count Reginar mentions his deceased
wife Hersindis and apparently (I haven't seen the text) qualifies
himself as successor to Emperor Charles (the Fat). This may have given
rise to the idea that his wife had been a Carolingian heiress; but since
Charles the Fat had no legitimate offspring and Charles the Bald had
plenty, the paternity of Hersindis may have become speculatively (or
rather, imaginatively) transferred to the latter. There is very little
likelihood in my view that this could be correct, or worth discussing in
Christian Settipani's book. However, there is no particular reason I can
see to doubt that a lady of this name, of unknown family, was the first
wife of Reginar. There would appear to be no value for a forger in the
invention of such a wife merely to name her in passing.
Indirectly, it is probable that Reginar had another wife before
Alberada: he was evidently born ca 850, occurring in an official
capacity by 877, whereas his son Gislebert was apparently born as late
as ca 895 - by my understanding of Richer's account he had only recently
attained the age of 20 at the time of Reginar's funeral some time
between August 915 and January 916, when the latter's powers were
conferred on him by King Charles the Simple: "Peractisque exsequiis,
Gisleberto eius filio, iam facto iuveni, paternum honorem, coram
principibus qui confluxerant liberalissime accommodat", see _Historiarum
libri IIII_, edited by Hartmut Hoffmann, MGH SS 38 (Hanover, 2000).
Most genealogists make Alberada the mother of all three known children
of Reginar. Since Gislebert was her son it is likely that his younger
brother was hers also, unless Reginar also had a subsequent wife (as has
been suggested, though not at all convincingly to me - he is sometimes
suggested as the father of Count Wigeric's wife Cunegundis, whose mother
was King Louis II's daughter Ermentrudis).
However, I think a case can be made that the known daughter of Reginar
could have been from the marriage to Hersindis. She (name unrecorded)
married Berengar, ancestor of the counts of Namur. There was a notable
lady named Hersindis in the following generation (living in October
949), the first wife of Eilbert of Florennes, who could well have been
her daughter as conjectured by Léon Vanderkindere in _La formation
territoriale des principautés belges au Moyen âge_(Brussels, 1902).
Peter Stewart