Margaret Butler [1568-1652] Wife of Lawrence Washington [c.1568-1616]
D. Spencer Hines
Presidents. George Washington is a particularly interesting case.
His 3rd Great-Grandparents were Lawrence Washington and Margaret
Butler. Margaret Butler is a descendant of King Edward I [1239-1307]
'Longshanks'.
Washington himself appears not to have known this. He only knew his
ancestors back to his Great-Grandparents. He says so in his collected
papers, published in 1932, the 200th anniversary of his birth.
George Washington died on 14 December 1799, so we have just passed
over the 200th anniversary of the death of a man who, probably more
than any other single individual, was responsible for the survival of
the weak, fledgling United States.
The recent A&E Film, "The Crossing" draws out some of these vital
lessons that have been forgotten in the politically correct stampede
to multi-culturalism. The film, based on a book by Howard Fast, is
concerned with Washington's crossing the Delaware River and defeating
Colonel Rall's Hessians in the Battle of Trenton, on 26 December 1776.
From Gary Boyd Roberts' _Ancestors of American Presidents_ and other
standard sources, I've constructed the incomplete _seize quartiers_
infra.
Can we collectively add to it and round out the picture of our first
President's English ancestors?
Ancestors of Margaret BUTLER - 12 Jan 2000
----------------------------------------------------------
FIRST GENERATION
1. Margaret BUTLER was born in 1568 in Tyes Hall, Cuckfield County,
Sussex, England. She died on 16 Mar 1651/52. She has reference
number Washington-33.
SECOND GENERATION
2. William BUTLER of Tyes Hall, Cuckfield, Sussex was born in 1524 in
Tighes, Cuckfield County, Sussex. He has reference number
Washington-66.
3. Margaret GREEKE of Palsters, Lancashire and London was born in
1534. She died in 1580. She has reference number Washington-67.
THIRD GENERATION
4. John BUTLER Gentleman of Aston le Wells was born in 1489 in
Sawbridgeworth, Herfordshire, England. He died on 17 Apr 1563. He
has reference number Washington-132.
5. Margaret SUTTON was born in 1492 in Aston-le-Welles,
Northamptonshire, England. She died in 1563/64. She has reference
number Washington-133.
6. Thomas GREEKE of Palsters, County Lancaster. He was married to
Jane THOMSON.
7. Jane THOMSON.
FOURTH GENERATION
8. Ralph BUTLER of Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire was born between
1450 and 1470. He was married.
10. Sir John SUTTON of Dudley of Aston le Wells was born in 1461 in
Aston-le-Welles, Northamptonshire, England. He was living in 1541.
He
has reference number Washington-266.
11. (Margaret) CHARROLL was born about 1465 in England. She has
reference number Washington-267.
14. George THOMSON. He was married.
FIFTH GENERATION
20. Sir Edmund SUTTON was born about 1425 in Dudley Castle,
Worchestershire, England. He died between 6 Jul 1483 and 30 Sep 1487.
He has reference number Washington-532. He was married to Joyce
TIPTOFT before 1459.
21. Joyce TIPTOFT was born about 1430 in Worcestershire, England.
She died in 1485 in Dudley, Worcestershire, England. She has
reference number Washington-533.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for
two thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an
honour to the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation
slipped into the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the
Intellectuals] (1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
Vickie Elam White
> I've recently been doing some work on the ancestors of American
> Presidents. George Washington is a particularly interesting case.
> His 3rd Great-Grandparents were Lawrence Washington and Margaret
> Butler. Margaret Butler is a descendant of King Edward I [1239-1307]
> 'Longshanks'.
An interesting article on George Washington and his own experience with
tracing his ancestry appears in National Genealogical Society Quarterly
(NGSQ) 87:261-271[December 1999]. The title is "George Washington
and the Genealogist" by Jack D. Warren, Jr.
Vickie Elam White
10265...@compuserve.com
U...@aol.com
D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu writes:
<< Ancestors of Margaret BUTLER - 12 Jan 2000
----------------------------------------------------------
FIRST GENERATION
1. Margaret BUTLER was born in 1568 in Tyes Hall, Cuckfield County,
Sussex, England. She died on 16 Mar 1651/52. She has reference
number Washington-33.
I have her death place as East Haddon, NTH, ENG; she m. 3 August 1588 in
Aston-le-Walls, NTH, ENG; they had 8 sons & 9 daughters; brought to her
husband the right to quarter the royal arms of Plantagenet.
Always optimistic--Dave
D. Spencer Hines
Gary Boyd Roberts, in AAP, has her born before 1568.
I confess that I did not know Leonard was a saint. The only Leonard
I've ever know well is a bookie in Las Vegas, who is not particularly
saintly.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for
two thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an
honour to the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation
slipped into the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the
Intellectuals] (1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
<U...@aol.com> wrote in message news:33.3347381...@aol.com...
Are S. Gustavsen
>
> I've recently been doing some work on the ancestors of American
> Presidents. George Washington is a particularly interesting case.
> His 3rd Great-Grandparents were Lawrence Washington and Margaret
> Butler. Margaret Butler is a descendant of King Edward I [1239-1307]
> 'Longshanks'.
>
> ancestors back to his Great-Grandparents. He says so in his collected
> papers, published in 1932, the 200th anniversary of his birth.
This may be a little on the side of the topic, however: George
Washington is said to have certain norwegian ancestores as well.
Can this be verified, and did Washington know about it?
Regards,
--
Are S. Gustavsen
Chr. Michelsensgt. 7 Tlf. 55 90 32 11
N-5012 BERGEN e-post: stud...@student.uib.no
mthi...@swbell.net
site where I can see the rest of this line ?
I don't know how to navigate in the Archives without VERY explicit
instructions.
Thanks,
Malinda Jones
D. Spencer Hines
Can you be a bit more specific? Ancestors from which century, for
example?
He stated in a letter that he had not traced his ancestors beyond his
Great-Grandparents, although the Dec 1999 article cited by Vickie Elam
White may have additional details.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for
two thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an
honour to the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation
slipped into the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the
Intellectuals] (1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
"Are S. Gustavsen" <stud...@student.uib.no> wrote in message
news:387D5B...@student.uib.no...
DavidBotts
As you dig, could you keep an eye out for the name of either of the two dogs
given him by the Marquis de Lafayette?
Thanks,
Dave Botts
Leo van de Pas
following :
St.Olav II, King of Norway
995-1030
\
Ulfhild of Norway
\
Magnus, Duke of Saxony
1045-1106
\
Wulfhild of Saxony
1075-1126
\
Judith of Bavaria
\
Friedrich Barbarossa, Emperor
1122-1190
\
Philipp von Hohenstaufen
King of the Romans
1176-1208
\
Maria von Hohenstaufen
1201-1235
\
Mathilde of Brabant
1224-1288
\
Blanche d'Artois, Regent of Navarre
1245-1302
\
Jeanne I, Queen of Navarre
1271-1304
\
Isabelle de France
1292-1358
\
Edward III, King of England
1312-1377
\
John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster
1340-1399
\
Joan Beaufort
1379-1440
\
Mary Ferrers, Lady of Oversley
1394-1457
\
John Nevill, of Oversley
\
Joane Nevill, of Oversley
\
Sir William Gascoigne, of Gawthorpe
\
Elizabeth Gascoigne
\
Anne Tailboys, of Kyme
\
Frances Dymoke
\
Mildred Windibank
1584-1630
\
Col. George Reade
Acting Governor of Virginia
1608-1674
\
Mildred Reade
\
Mildred Warner
1671-
\
Capt. Augustine Washington
1694-1743
\
George Washington
1st President of the USA
1732-1799
And there must be other Norwegians.
Hope this helps?
Leo van de Pas
Perth, Western Australia
kjansen
genealogy to do so, but wanted you to know that While I was at the Family
History Library in Utah, I spoke with a man there who was doing Presidential
Genealogy and he mentioned that George Washington and Princess Diana
(Spencer) were related somehow ? I just thought this might be an interesting
thing to look out for.
The conversation started when I came across the name Dandridge in Oxon. in
my family tree, and remembered that this was George Washingtons wifes last
name and that her line were from Oxfordshire as well. I am enjoying looking
at the postings on this list, and when I am brave enough will post what I
have found on my family tre and see if it is correct or not. Thank for all
your interesting talk. PJ
Leo van de Pas
example)
they are 'cousins' of everybody else with that Royal ancestor. We all know
that Lady
Diana descends from King Charles II, and that Charles II descends from
Edward III.
And so it follows, yes, George Washington is a 'cousin' of Lady Diana
Spencer.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
D. Spencer Hines
cousins.
Specifically, they are 10th cousins, three times removed. <g>
How many folks knew that General Washington was six years older than
the King he revolted against?
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for
two thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an
honour to the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation
slipped into the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the
Intellectuals] (1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
"kjansen" <kja...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:001e01bf5d5e$71758760$5adcaec7@oemcomputer...
D. Spencer Hines
Yes, the man you spoke to in Salt Lake City and Mr. Leo van de Pas are
both right.
President/General George Washington [1732-1799] and Diana, [1961-1997]
Princess of Wales are related.
They are at least 8th cousins, 7 times removed. The common ancestor
is Robert Kytson of Warton, who lived in the 15th Century.
Mr. van de Pas may have a closer relationship between the two, because
he has a larger data base than I do and he's also probably smarter.
Do you have Robert Kytson's wife, Leo, and perhaps his dates?
Robert Kytson is also an ancestor of Sir Winston Leonard Spencer
Churchill [1874-1965].
ED MANN
>
> I don't want to intrude here, as I don't feel I am educated enough in
> genealogy to do so, but wanted you to know that While I was at the Family
> History Library in Utah, I spoke with a man there who was doing Presidential
> Genealogy and he mentioned that George Washington and Princess Diana
> (Spencer) were related somehow ? I just thought this might be an interesting
> thing to look out for.
At least as close as 8th cousin, seven times removed:
Descendants of Robert Kytson
1 Robert Kytson 1454 - 1547/48 ref #: BP1:38
2 Margaret Kytson 1479 - ref #: BP1:38
+John Washington 1478 - 1528 ref #: BP1:38
3 Lawrence Washington 1500 - 1583/84 ref #: BP1:38
+Elizabeth ref #: BP1:38
*2nd Wife of Lawrence Washington:
+Amy Pargiter 1524 - 1564 ref #: BP1:39
4 Robert Washington 1544 - 1620/21 ref #: AAP:2
+Elizabeth Light - 1599 ref #: AAP:2
5 Lawrence Washington 1568 - 1616 ref #: AAP:2
+Margaret Butler 1568 - 1651/52 ref #: F274:2
6 Lawrence Washington 1602 - 1652/53 ref #: F275:1
+Amphyllis Twigden 1602 - 1655 ref #: AAP:1
7 John Washington 1634 - 1677 ref #: F275:1i
+Anne Pope - 1668 ref #: AAP:1
8 Lawrence Washington 1659 - 1697/98 ref #: F275:1ia
+Mildred Warner 1671 - 1701 ref #: W86-18
9 Augustine Washington 1694 - 1743 ref #: W86-19
+Jane Butler
*2nd Wife of Augustine Washington:
+Mary Ball 1708 - 1789 ref #: AAP:1
10 George Washington 1731/32 - 1799 ref #: W86-20
*2nd Wife of John Washington:
+Anne Gerrard
*3rd Wife of John Washington:
+Frances Gerrard
*2nd Wife of Robert Washington:
+Anne Fisher - 1651/52
2 Thomas Kytson 1485 - 1540 ref #: BPci:1456
+Margaret Donington 1509 - 1561 ref #: BP1:627
3 Katherine Kytson 1525 - ref #: BPci:1456
+John Spencer - 1586 ref #: BPci:1456
4 Alice Spencer - 1636/37 ref #: BPci631
+Ferdinando Stanley - 1594 ref #: BPci631
5 Frances Stanley 1583 - 1636 ref #: BxP:187
+John Egerton ref #: BxP:187
6 John Egerton 1623 - 1686 ref #: BxP:187
+Elizabeth Cavendish ref #: BxP:109
7 John Egerton 1646 - 1700/01 ref #: BxP:187
+Jane Paulet - 1716 ref #: BxP:187
8 [8] Scroope Egerton 1681 - 1744/45 ref #: BxP:187
+[7] Elizabeth Spencer ref #: (BxP:187)
9 [9] Anne Egerton 1700 - 1762 ref #: BxP:187
+[10] William Villiers - 1769
10 [11] George Bussy Villiers 1735 - 1805
+[12] Frances Twysden
11 [13] Caroline Elizabeth Villiers - 1835 ref #: (BPci:83)
+[14] Henry William Paget 1768 - 1854 ref #: (BPci:1842)
12 [15] Caroline Paget - 1874 ref #: (BPci:1842)
+[16] Charles Lennox 1791 - 1860 ref #: BPci:1842
13 [17] Cecilia Catherine Lennox - 1910 ref #: BPci:1843
+[18] George Bingham 1830 - 1914 ref #: (BPci:4)
14 [19] Rosalind Cecilia Caroline Bingham 1869 - 1958 ref #: (BPci:4)
+[20] James Albert Edward Hamilton 1869 - 1953 ref #: BPci:4
15 [2] Cynthia Eleanor Beatrix Hamilton 1897 - 1972
+[1] Albert Edward John Spencer 1892 - 1975 ref #: (see notes)
16 [3] Edward John Spencer 1924 - 1992 ref #: (AACPW:22)
+[4] Frances Ruth Burke Roche 1936 - ref #: AACPW:22.6
17 [5] Diana Frances Spencer 1961 - 1997 ref #: AAP:347
*2nd Wife of [3] Edward John Spencer:
+[6] Raine McCorquodale 1929 -
*2nd Husband of [13] Caroline Elizabeth Villiers:
+[21] George William Campbell 1766 - 1839 ref #: BPci:83
*2nd Husband of [9] Anne Egerton:
+[22] Wriothesley Russell 1708 - 1732 ref #: BPci:182
*2nd Wife of [8] Scroope Egerton:
+Rachel Russell ref #: (BxP:187)
4 John Spencer - 1598/99 ref #: BPci:1456
+Mary Catlyn ref #: BP1:627
5 Robert Spencer 1570 - 1627 ref #: BPci:1456
+Margaret Willoughby - 1597 ref #: BP1:627
6 William Spencer 1592 - 1636 ref #: BPci:1456
+Penelope Wriothesley - 1667 ref #: BxP:594
7 Henry Spencer 1620 - 1643 ref #: (BxP:525)
+Dorothy Sydney 1617 - 1683/84 ref #: BxP:525
8 Robert Spencer 1640 - 1702 ref #: BPci:1457
+Anne Digby - 1715 ref #: BxP:171
9 Charles Spencer 1674 - 1722 ref #: BPci:1457
+Arabella Cavendish - 1698 ref #: BxP:110
*2nd Wife of Charles Spencer:
+Anne Churchill 1684 - 1716 ref #: BPci:1457
10 John Spencer 1708 - 1746 ref #: BPci:2045
+Georgina Carolina Carteret - 1780 ref #: BxP:109
11 John Spencer 1734 - 1783 ref #: BPci:2045
+Margaret Georgiana Poyntz 1737 - 1814
12 George John Spencer 1758 - 1834
+Lavinia Bingham 1762 - 1831
13 Frederick Spencer 1798 - 1857 ref #: BPci:2045
+Elizabeth Georgina Poyntz 1799 - 1851 ref #: (BPci:2045)
*2nd Wife of Frederick Spencer:
+Adelaide Horatia Elizabeth Seymour 1825 - 1877 ref #: BPci:1091
14 [24] Charles Robert Spencer 1857 - 1922 ref #: BPci:2045
+[23] Margaret Baring 1868 - 1906 ref #: BPci:1836
15 [1] Albert Edward John Spencer 1892 - 1975 ref #: (see notes)
+[2] Cynthia Eleanor Beatrix Hamilton 1897 - 1972
16 [3] Edward John Spencer 1924 - 1992 ref #: (AACPW:22)
+[4] Frances Ruth Burke Roche 1936 - ref #: AACPW:22.6
17 [5] Diana Frances Spencer 1961 - 1997 ref #: AAP:347
*2nd Wife of [3] Edward John Spencer:
+[6] Raine McCorquodale 1929 -
11 [7] Elizabeth Spencer ref #: (BxP:187)
+[8] Scroope Egerton 1681 - 1744/45 ref #: BxP:187
12 [9] Anne Egerton 1700 - 1762 ref #: BxP:187
+[10] William Villiers - 1769
13 [11] George Bussy Villiers 1735 - 1805
+[12] Frances Twysden
14 [13] Caroline Elizabeth Villiers - 1835 ref #: (BPci:83)
+[14] Henry William Paget 1768 - 1854 ref #: (BPci:1842)
15 [15] Caroline Paget - 1874 ref #: (BPci:1842)
+[16] Charles Lennox 1791 - 1860 ref #: BPci:1842
16 [17] Cecilia Catherine Lennox - 1910 ref #: BPci:1843
+[18] George Bingham 1830 - 1914 ref #: (BPci:4)
17 [19] Rosalind Cecilia Caroline Bingham 1869 - 1958 ref #: (BPci:4)
+[20] James Albert Edward Hamilton 1869 - 1953 ref #: BPci:4
18 [2] Cynthia Eleanor Beatrix Hamilton 1897 - 1972
+[1] Albert Edward John Spencer 1892 - 1975 ref #: (see notes)
19 [3] Edward John Spencer 1924 - 1992 ref #: (AACPW:22)
+[4] Frances Ruth Burke Roche 1936 - ref #: AACPW:22.6
20 [5] Diana Frances Spencer 1961 - 1997 ref #: AAP:347
*2nd Wife of [3] Edward John Spencer:
+[6] Raine McCorquodale 1929 -
*2nd Husband of [13] Caroline Elizabeth Villiers:
+[21] George William Campbell 1766 - 1839 ref #: BPci:83
*2nd Husband of [9] Anne Egerton:
+[22] Wriothesley Russell 1708 - 1732 ref #: BPci:182
*3rd Wife of Charles Spencer:
+Judith Tichborne - 1749 ref #: BPci:1457
7 Alice Spencer 1625 - 1696
8 Mary Moore
9 John Bellenden 1685 - 1740
10 Diana Bellenden 1731 - 1799
11 John Bulteel 1763 - 1837
12 John Crocker Bulteel ref #: (BPci:1835)
+Elizabeth Grey 1798 - 1880 ref #: (BPci:1835)
13 Louisa Emily Charlotte Bulteel 1839 - 1892 ref #: (BPci:1835)
+Edward Charles Baring 1828 - ref #: BPci:1835
14 [23] Margaret Baring 1868 - 1906 ref #: BPci:1836
+[24] Charles Robert Spencer 1857 - 1922 ref #: BPci:2045
15 [1] Albert Edward John Spencer 1892 - 1975 ref #: (see notes)
+[2] Cynthia Eleanor Beatrix Hamilton 1897 - 1972
16 [3] Edward John Spencer 1924 - 1992 ref #: (AACPW:22)
+[4] Frances Ruth Burke Roche 1936 - ref #: AACPW:22.6
17 [5] Diana Frances Spencer 1961 - 1997 ref #: AAP:347
*2nd Wife of [3] Edward John Spencer:
+[6] Raine McCorquodale 1929 -
4 William Spencer ref #: BPci:1456
5 Catherine Spencer - 1612 ref #: (BPci:1436)
+Henry Montagu 1563 - ref #: BPci:1436
6 James Montagu
7 James Montagu
8 James Montagu
9 John Montagu 1719 - 1795
10 George Montagu 1750 - 1829
11 Georgiana Montagu 1786 - 1854
12 Anne Frances Gore 1817 - 1877
+Richard William Penn Curzon-Howe 1796 - 1870 ref #: BxP:289
13 Mary Anna Curzon-Howe 1848 - 1929
+James Hamilton 1838 - 1913 ref #: BPci:4
14 [20] James Albert Edward Hamilton 1869 - 1953 ref #: BPci:4
+[19] Rosalind Cecilia Caroline Bingham 1869 - 1958 ref #:
(BPci:4)
15 [2] Cynthia Eleanor Beatrix Hamilton 1897 - 1972
+[1] Albert Edward John Spencer 1892 - 1975 ref #: (see notes)
16 [3] Edward John Spencer 1924 - 1992 ref #: (AACPW:22)
+[4] Frances Ruth Burke Roche 1936 - ref #: AACPW:22.6
17 [5] Diana Frances Spencer 1961 - 1997 ref #: AAP:347
*2nd Wife of [3] Edward John Spencer:
+[6] Raine McCorquodale 1929 -
--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com
References:
Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
AACPW = Roberts & Reitwiesner, _American Ancestors and Cousins of
the Princess of Wales_, [page].
AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
[Pres. # : page].
BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].
EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
FMS = Stewart, _Forgotten_Monarchy_of_Scotland_, [page].
NK1 = Roberts, _Notable_Kin_Volume_One_, [page].
Π= Hardy, _Colonial_Families_of_the_Southern_States_of_America_,
[page].
S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed. Caveat emptor.
W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
WFT = Broderbund's World Family Tree CD, [vol]:[num] Caveat emptor.
WMC = Wurt's Magna Charta, [vol]:[page]
U...@aol.com
D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu writes:
<< They are at least 8th cousins, 7 times removed. The common ancestor
is Robert Kytson of Warton, who lived in the 15th Century.
>>
First for General George
Direct Descendants of Robert Kytson
1 Robert Kytson b: 1454 d: Abt. 1548
2 Margaret Kytson b: 1479
.... +John Washington b: 1478 d: 1528
3 Lawrence Washington b: Abt. 1500 d: Abt. 1584
.... +Amy Pargiter b: Abt. 1524 d: 1564
4 Robert Washington b: 1544 in Sulgrave, NTH, ENG d: Bet. February
07, 1619/20 - January 03, 1620/21
.... +Elizabeth Lyte b: in of Radway Grange, WAR, ENG d: Abt. 1599
5 Lawrence Washington b: Abt. 1568 in of Sulgrave and Wicken, NTH, ENG
d: December 13, 1616 in Brighton, NTH, ENG
.... +Margaret Butler b: 1568 in of Tyes Hall, Cuckfield, SSX, ENG
d: March 16, 1651/52 in East Haddon, NTH, ENG
6 Lawrence Washington, Rev. b: Abt. 1602 in Sulgrave Manor, NTH, ENG
d: Bef. January 21, 1653/54 in Maldon, ESS, ENG
.... +Amphyllis Twigden b: Bef. February 02, 1601/02 d: Abt.
January 12, 1654/55 in Tring, HRT, ENG
7 John Washington, Col. b: Abt. 1634 in Purleigh, ESS, ENG d: 1677
in Washington Parish, Westmoreland, VA
.... +Anne Pope d: Abt. 1668 in Westmoreland Co., VA
8 Lawrence Washington, Capt. b: September 1659 in Westmoreland Co., VA
d: February 1697/98 in Westmoreland Co., VA
.... +Mildred Warner b: Abt. 1671 in Warner Hall
9 Augustine Washington, Capt. b: Abt. 1694 in Wakefield, Westmoreland,
VA d: April 12, 1743 in Ferry Farm, King George, VA
*2nd Wife of Augustine Washington, Capt.:
.... +Mary Ball b: Abt. 1708 in Lancaster Co., VA d: August 25,
1789 in Fredericksburg, VA
10 George Washington, Gen. b: February 11, 1731/32 in Pope's Creek,
Westmoreland, VA d: September 14, 1799 in Mount Vernon, Fairfax, VA
And for Diana
Direct Descendants of Robert Kytson
1 Robert Kytson b: 1454 d: Abt. 1548
2 Thomas Kytson, Sir b: Abt. 1485 d: 1540
.... +Margaret Donington b: Abt. 1509 d: 1561
3 Katherine Kytson b: Abt. 1525
.... +John Spencer, Sir d: 1586
4 John Spencer, Sir d: Abt. 1599
.... +Mary Catlyn
5 Robert Spencer, Sir b: 1570 in of Wormleighton d: 1627
.... +Margaret Willoughby d: 1597
6 William Spencer, Sir b: 1592 d: 1636
.... +Penelope Wriothesley b: 1598 d: 1667
7 Henry Spencer, Sir b: 1620 d: 1643
.... +Dorothy Sydney d: Abt. 1684
8 Robert Spencer, Sir b: 1640 d: 1702
.... +Anne Digby d: 1715
9 Charles Spencer, Sir b: 1674 d: 1722
*2nd Wife of Charles Spencer, Sir:
.... +Anne Churchill b: 1684 d: 1716
10 John Spencer b: 1708 d: 1746
.... +Margaret Georgiana Poyntz b: 1737 d: 1814
11 George John Spencer b: September 01, 1758 in Wimbledon, ENG d:
November 10, 1834 in Althorp, ENG
.... +Lavinia Bingham b: July 27, 1762 in Castlebar, Mayo d: June
08, 1831 in London, ENG
12 Frederick Spencer, Sir b: April 14, 1798 in The Admiralty,
Whitehall, ENG d: December 27, 1857 in Althorp, ENG
.... +Adelaide Horatia Elizabeth Seymour b: January 27, 1825 d:
October 29, 1877 in Guilsborough, NTH, ENG
13 [2] Charles Robert Spencer, Sir b: October 30, 1857 d: September
26, 1922 in London, ENG
.... +[1] Margaret Baring b: December 14, 1868 in London, ENG d:
July 04, 1906 in London, ENG
14 [3] Albert Edward John Spencer, Sir b: May 23, 1892 in London,
ENG d: June 09, 1975 in Northampton, ENG
.... +[4] Cynthia Eleanor Beatrix Hamilton b: 1897 d: December 04,
1972 in Althorp, ENG
15 [5] Edward John Spencer, Sir b: January 24, 1924 in Sussex
Square, London, ENG d: March 29, 1992 in London, ENG
*2nd Wife of [5] Edward John Spencer, Sir:
.... +[6] Frances Ruth Burke Roche b: January 20, 1936 in Park
House, Sandringham, ENG
16 [7] Diana Frances Spencer b: July 01, 1961 in Park House,
Sandringham, ENG d: August 31, 1997 in Paris, FRA
7 Alice Spencer b: 1625 d: 1696
8 Mary Moore
9 John Bellenden, Sir b: 1685 d: 1740
10 Diana Bellenden b: 1731 d: 1799
11 John Bulteel b: 1763 d: 1837
12 John Crocker Bulteel b: in of Flete & Lyneham, DEV, ENG d:
September 10, 1843
.... +Elizabeth Grey b: 1798 d: November 08, 1880
13 Louisa Emily Charlotte Bulteel b: 1839 d: October 16, 1892 in
Membland, DEV
.... +Edward Charles Baring, Sir b: April 13, 1828 d: July 17, 1897
in London, ENG
14 [1] Margaret Baring b: December 14, 1868 in London, ENG d: July
04, 1906 in London, ENG
.... +[2] Charles Robert Spencer, Sir b: October 30, 1857 d:
September 26, 1922 in London, ENG
15 [3] Albert Edward John Spencer, Sir b: May 23, 1892 in London,
ENG d: June 09, 1975 in Northampton, ENG
.... +[4] Cynthia Eleanor Beatrix Hamilton b: 1897 d: December 04,
1972 in Althorp, ENG
16 [5] Edward John Spencer, Sir b: January 24, 1924 in Sussex
Square, London, ENG d: March 29, 1992 in London, ENG
*2nd Wife of [5] Edward John Spencer, Sir:
.... +[6] Frances Ruth Burke Roche b: January 20, 1936 in Park
House, Sandringham, ENG
17 [7] Diana Frances Spencer b: July 01, 1961 in Park House,
Sandringham, ENG d: August 31, 1997 in Paris, FRA
4 Alice Spencer d: January 26, 1636/37
.... +Ferdinando Stanley, Sir d: April 16, 1594
5 Frances Stanley b: 1583 d: 1636
.... +John Egerton, Sir
6 John Egerton, Sir b: 1623 d: 1686
.... +Elizabeth Cavendish
7 John Egerton b: 1646 d: March 19, 1700/01
.... +Jane Paulet d: May 23, 1716
8 Scroope Egerton, Sir b: August 11, 1681 d: 1745
.... +Elizabeth Spencer
9 Anne Egerton d: June 16, 1762
*2nd Husband of Anne Egerton:
.... +William Villiers, Sir
10 George Bussy Villiers, Sir b: 1735 d: 1805
.... +Frances Twysden
11 Caroline Elizabeth Villiers b: 1774 d: 1835
.... +Henry William Paget, Sir b: 1768 d: 1854
12 Caroline Paget b: June 06, 1796 d: March 12, 1874 in
Marylebone, ENG
.... +Charles Lennox, Sir b: August 03, 1791 in Whitehall d:
October 21, 1860 in Marylebone, ENG
13 Cecelia Catherine Lennox d: October 05, 1910 in London, ENG
.... +George Bingham, Sir b: May 08, 1830 d: June 05, 1914 in
Laleham
14 Rosalind Cecilia Caroline Bingham b: February 26, 1869 in
London, ENG d: January 18, 1958 in London, ENG
.... +James Albert Edward Hamilton, Sir b: November 30, 1869 in
London, ENG d: September 12, 1953 in London, ENG
15 [4] Cynthia Eleanor Beatrix Hamilton b: 1897 d: December 04,
1972 in Althorp, ENG
.... +[3] Albert Edward John Spencer, Sir b: May 23, 1892 in
London, ENG d: June 09, 1975 in Northampton, ENG
16 [5] Edward John Spencer, Sir b: January 24, 1924 in Sussex
Square, London, ENG d: March 29, 1992 in London, ENG
*2nd Wife of [5] Edward John Spencer, Sir:
.... +[6] Frances Ruth Burke Roche b: January 20, 1936 in Park
House, Sandringham, ENG
17 [7] Diana Frances Spencer b: July 01, 1961 in Park House,
Sandringham, ENG d: August 31, 1997 in Paris, FRA
Always optimistic--Dave
U...@aol.com
D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu writes:
<< They are at least 8th cousins, 7 times removed. The common ancestor
is Robert Kytson of Warton, who lived in the 15th Century.
>>
Sorry, forgot Winston
Direct Descendants of Robert Kytson
1 Robert Kytson b: 1454 d: Abt. 1548
2 Thomas Kytson, Sir b: Abt. 1485 d: 1540
.... +Margaret Donington b: Abt. 1509 d: 1561
3 Katherine Kytson b: Abt. 1525
.... +John Spencer, Sir d: 1586
4 John Spencer, Sir d: Abt. 1599
.... +Mary Catlyn
5 Robert Spencer, Sir b: 1570 in of Wormleighton d: 1627
.... +Margaret Willoughby d: 1597
6 William Spencer, Sir b: 1592 d: 1636
.... +Penelope Wriothesley b: 1598 d: 1667
7 Henry Spencer, Sir b: 1620 d: 1643
.... +Dorothy Sydney d: Abt. 1684
8 Robert Spencer, Sir b: 1640 d: 1702
.... +Anne Digby d: 1715
9 Charles Spencer, Sir b: 1674 d: 1722
*2nd Wife of Charles Spencer, Sir:
.... +Anne Churchill b: 1684 d: 1716
10 Charles Spencer, Sir b: 1706 d: October 28, 1758
.... +Elizabeth Trevor d: 1761
11 George Spencer, Sir b: Abt. 1739 d: January 29, 1817
.... +Caroline Russell d: 1811
12 George Spencer-Churchill, Sir b: 1766 d: March 05, 1840
.... +Susan Stewart d: 1841
13 George Spencer-Churchill, Sir b: 1793 d: July 01, 1857
.... +Jane Stewart d: 1844
14 John Winston Spencer-Churchill, Sir b: 1822 d: July 05, 1883
.... +Frances Anne Emily Vane d: 1899
15 Randolph Henry Spencer-Churchill, Sir b: 1849 d: 1895
.... +Jeanette Jerome d: 1921
16 Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill, Rt. Hon. b: 1874 d: 1965
Always optimistic--Dave
John Steele Gordon
> 7 John Washington 1634 - 1677 ref #: F275:1i
> +Anne Pope - 1668 ref #: AAP:1
> 8 Lawrence Washington 1659 - 1697/98 ref #: F275:1ia
> +Mildred Warner 1671 - 1701 ref #: W86-18
> 9 Augustine Washington 1694 - 1743 ref #: W86-19
> +Jane Butler
> *2nd Wife of Augustine Washington:
> +Mary Ball 1708 - 1789 ref #: AAP:1
> 10 George Washington 1731/32 - 1799 ref #: W86-20
> *2nd Wife of John Washington:
> +Anne Gerrard
> *3rd Wife of John Washington:
> +Frances Gerrard
Although John Washington had a second wife named Anne, and married as a
third wife Frances Gerard, it is very unlikely that the second wife was
the sister of the third.
Edwin W. Beitzell, in his "Thomas Gerard and His Sons-in-Law," MHS, Vol.
41 (1951), pp. 189-206, makes this assertion. But John Walton in his
"Gerard's Daughters," MHS Vol. 68 (1973) pp. 443-450, makes a convincing
case that he is in error, doubting even that Thomas Gerard *had* a
daughter named Anne for John Washington to marry.
Those Gerard sisters did get around, however. Faris II lists five of
them, with fourteen husbands among them.
JSG
--
http://www.familyorigins.com/users/g/o/r/John-S-Gordon
D. Spencer Hines
Without violating his copyright, of course.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for
two thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an
honour to the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation
slipped into the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the
Intellectuals] (1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
"Vickie Elam White" <10265...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:200001121143_...@compuserve.com...
| D. Spencer Hines wrote --
|
| > I've recently been doing some work on the ancestors of American
| > Presidents. George Washington is a particularly interesting case.
| > His 3rd Great-Grandparents were Lawrence Washington and Margaret
| > Butler. Margaret Butler is a descendant of King Edward I
[1239-1307]
| > 'Longshanks'.
|
D. Spencer Hines
Good Show. Thank you.
Sir Winston and General Washington are 8th cousins, six times removed
_de minimis_.
Sir Winston and Diana, Princess of Wales are 5th cousins, twice
removed _de minimis_.
With thanks and a tip of the chapeau to Ian Fettes, the remarkable
Australian.
Does anyone have any more fill for Margaret Butler's _seize
quartiers_?
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for
two thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an
honour to the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation
slipped into the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the
Intellectuals] (1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
<U...@aol.com> wrote in message news:4e.a02604...@aol.com...
D. Spencer Hines
Thanks, Dave.
Margaret Butler "brought to her husband [Lawrence Washington] the
right to quarter the royal arms of Plantagenet."
Yes, that's true. She is a descendant of Edward I.
Intriguing Questions:
1. Is she a descendant of Edward III?
2. Is she linked to the Butlers who are the Earls of Ormonde?
3. "Right to quarter the royal arms of Plantagenet..." From whom did
she receive this right? Can one receive the "right to halve the arms
of Plantagenet... or eighth them?"
4. How does one pass on this right and how far does it go? Does it
take a royal writ of some sort to keep it going? Can the descendants
of Margaret Butler and Lawrence Washington still "quarter the royal
arms of Plantagenet" --- or did that right die out and get expunged?
Fun. American Presidential Genealogy is replete with this sort of
thing, but George Washington's is among the most interesting.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for
two thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an
honour to the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation
slipped into the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the
Intellectuals] (1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
<U...@aol.com> wrote in message news:33.3347381...@aol.com...
| In a message dated 1/12/00 9:52:07 AM Central Standard Time,
mthi...@swbell.net
Did anyone post anything about these questions ?
Thanks,
Malinda Jones
D. Spencer Hines
No, but...
Yes, they are some rather intriguing questions, aren't they?
Once we clear the riffraff, the whiners, the foul-mouthed guttersnipes
and the ragamuffins off our newsgroup -- SGM -- perhaps we can get
down to examining these important Genealogical Questions.
You think George Washington is fun, you should see Theodore Roosevelt,
Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Thomas Jefferson and _their_ Medieval
Roots!
Tens of millions of Americans and those of other Nationalities as well
have these folks as cousins.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for
two thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an
honour to the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation
slipped into the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the
Intellectuals] (1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
<mthi...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:387FD3D1...@postoffice.swbell.net...
mthi...@swbell.net
with Washington's...so it looks all new and awesome to me at the
moment...I'm only peripheral (?) to Jefferson's line... cousins in common.
Sometime I'd like to see the Jefferson and Roosevelt lines as well...I
just don't know how to find them. I don't know how to navigate in the
Archives.
Thanks for raising some interesting questions. Do you happen to know if
there's a website that has the Washington heraldry on it ?
My mother would like to see what it looks like.
Malinda
DavidBotts
Ancestry...(1996), Page 274)
2. Tighes is AKA Tyes (Plantagenet Ancestry)
D. Spencer Hines
Vide infra.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for
two thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an
honour to the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation
slipped into the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the
Intellectuals] (1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
"DavidBotts" <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000115144141...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
| 1. Burial: St. Michael's, Brington, County Northampton, England
| (Plantagenet Ancestry...(1996), Page 274)
I fear you've confused Lawrence Washington and his wife Margaret
Butler.
David Faris tells us that _Lawrence Washington_ [circa 1568--1616
v.p.] was buried at St. Michael's, with monumental inscription.
|
| 2. Tighes is AKA Tyes (Plantagenet Ancestry)
Yes. Thank you.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Exitus Acta Probat [The Motto of General George Washington]
D. Spencer Hines
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for
two thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an
honour to the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation
slipped into the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the
Intellectuals] (1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
"DavidBotts" <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000115144141...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
| 1. Burial: St. Michael's, Brington, County Northampton, England
| (Plantagenet Ancestry...(1996), Page 274)
I fear you've confused Lawrence Washington and his wife Margaret
Butler.
David Faris tell us that _Lawrence Washington_ [circa 1568 --- 1616
DavidBotts
Anyone able to name those 15 kids of Lawrence and Margaret (Butler) Washington,
aside from Richard and Lawrence?
Dave Botts
U...@aol.com
david...@aol.com writes:
I have 11
Descendants of Margaret Butler
1 Margaret Butler b: 1568 in of Tyes Hall, Cuckfield, SSX, ENG d: 16
March 1651/52 in East Haddon, NTH, ENG
.. +Lawrence Washington b: Abt. 1568 in of Sulgrave and Wicken, NTH,
ENG d: 13 December 1616 in Brighton, NTH, ENG
2 Richard Washington d: Bef. 08 January 1641/42
.. +Frances Browne
2 William Washington, Sir b: in of Packington, LEI d: Abt. 22 June
1643
.. +Anne Villiers
2 John Washington, Sir b: in of Thrapston, NTH
.. +Mary Curtis
*2nd Wife of John Washington, Sir:
.. +Dorothy Pargiter
2 Elizabeth Washington
.. +Francis Mewce b: in of Holdenby, NTH
2 Joan Washington
.. +Francis Pill
2 Margaret Washington
.. +Samuel Thornton d: Abt. 1667
2 Alice Washington
.. +Robert Sandys
2 Lawrence Washington, Rev. b: Abt. 1602 in Sulgrave Manor, NTH, ENG
d: Bef. 21 January 1653/54 in Maldon, ESS, ENG
.. +Amphyllis Twigden b: Bef. 02 February 1601/02 d: Abt. 12 January
1654/55 in Tring, HRT, ENG
2 Thomas Washington b: Abt. 1605 d: 1623 in Madrid, ESP
2 Gregory Washington b: Bef. 16 January 1606/07 d: Abt. 17 January
1606/07
2 George Washington b: Bef. 03 August 1608
Always optimistic--Dave
Tim Powys-Lybbe
mthi...@swbell.net wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Did anyone post anything about these questions ?
>
> Thanks,
> Malinda Jones
>
> "D. Spencer Hines" wrote:
>
> > Yep.
> >
> > Thanks, Dave.
> >
> > Margaret Butler "brought to her husband [Lawrence Washington] the
> > right to quarter the royal arms of Plantagenet."
> >
> > Yes, that's true. She is a descendant of Edward I.
> >
> > Intriguing Questions:
> >
> > 1. Is she a descendant of Edward III?
> >
> > 2. Is she linked to the Butlers who are the Earls of Ormonde?
> >
> > 3. "Right to quarter the royal arms of Plantagenet..." From whom did
> > she receive this right? Can one receive the "right to halve the arms
> > of Plantagenet... or eighth them?"
I can answer this sort of question but know nothing of questions 1 and
2. :-)
This answer only refers to English practice and only applies if you wish
to comply with the so-called "laws of heraldry".
Arms are held primarily by males; they are inherited by all the children
of a male. If there are male children, the females cannot pass them on
to their children. Males can pass them on to their children. For those
that know, I am assuming here that distinctions are not used for junior
members of an English family; Scottish practice is quite different.
This process of inheritance merely passes on the single coat of arms
originally granted to to claimed from eternity by some male.
The interesting thing happens if there are no surviving male children.
Then the female children can inherit the arms and can pass them on to
their children if they marry a male who already has - or hastily
acquires - some arms. Lets call such females "heraldic heiresses";
these heiresses in fact pass their arms to their children who can then
"quarter" them with their father's arms. The children will normally
display only their father's arms but their "full achievement" does
include their mother's arms as well. If their mother is the first such
quartering then the arrangement is to show four quarters, the father's
are in the top left and bottom right quarters and their mother's are in
the top right and bottom left quarters.
This process of accumulating arms from heraldic heiresses can continue.
The greater prize is to marry an heraldic heiress whose father already
has, say, 20 quarterings. then you add all these 20 quartering to your
own current set. The fact that they are no longer arithmetic quarters
is irrelevant, they may be fifty-seconds but they are still called
quarters.
If your heraldic heiress is descended in this way from someone who was
in fact a Plantagenet whose arms were a differenced version of the royal
arms, then those arms are included in their quarterings. Ruvigny in his
Clarence volume (republished by Genealogical Publishing Co in 1994)
makes some play of the vast numbers of people who have inherited the
Clarence, i.e. royal plantagenet but with a "label" as a mark of
distinction from the real royal, arms.
> >
> > 4. How does one pass on this right and how far does it go? Does it
> > take a royal writ of some sort to keep it going? Can the descendants
> > of Margaret Butler and Lawrence Washington still "quarter the royal
> > arms of Plantagenet" --- or did that right die out and get expunged?
The passing on is as above. There is no need to get any royal writ,
though the "best" people like to get the English college of arms to
confirm their entitlement every generation or so. Costs a few bob
though.
The amusing thing is that in fact none of the people in Ruvigny's
Clarence volume is in fact entitled to bear the Clarence arms. The
reason for this is that the presumed right goes through Margaret Pole,
Countess of Salisbury, who was one of these heraldic heiresses. She,
poor woman, was unjustly judged guilty of treason by Henry VIII,
attainted, imprisoned and eventually executed, brutally, at the age of
around 68.
An attainder bars the children from inheriting their parent's honours.
These honours include the coats of arms. So none of her descendants
can bear the Clarence arms.
So, even though you may have this odd descent from a plantagenet, no
matter how many generations ago, you must also check that there is no
attainder on any of the people in the line of descent. If there is and
if the attainder has not been repealed, you cannot claim those arms.
Perhaps I should add that only the current sovereign bears the royal
arms. These full royal arms are only inherited by the next
sovereign, not by anyone else. The sovereign's children may display the
royal arms as theirs but they must include on them some mark of
distinction to distinguish them from the sovereign. Each such child
will have a different mark. Commonly used marks are "labels" and
"crescents" but you really need to refer to a heraldry book to get the
hang of these. These arms-with-distinguishing-extra may and are indeed
inherited in the manner described above.
So if the Butlers have inherited some so-called plantagenet royal arms,
they must also find our precisely what those arms were and what the
differencing was.
<snip>
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@southfrm.demon.co.uk
For a patchwork of bygones: www.southfrm.demon.co.uk
ED MANN
>
> Greetings from Texas:
>
> Anyone able to name those 15 kids of Lawrence and Margaret (Butler) Washington,
> aside from Richard and Lawrence?
I also show a John:
Descendants of Lawrence Washington
1 Lawrence Washington b: Abt. 1568 d: 13 Dec 1616 ref #: AAP:2
+Margaret Butler b: 1568 d: 16 Mar 1651/52 ref #: F274:2
2 John Washington b: Abt. 1591 d: Abt. 1668 ref #: W30-15
2 Richard Washington b: Abt. 1598 d: Abt. 1642 ref #: F274:2i
2 Lawrence Washington b: Abt. 1602 d: Bef. 21 Jan 1652/53 ref #:
F275:1
+Amphyllis Twigden b: Abt. 1602 d: Abt. 1655 ref #: AAP:1
DavidBotts
The way they read it in Australia
St.Olav II, King of Norway
+ ?
?
+Ulfhild of Norway
Magnus 'of Saxony'*****************
The way we read it in Texas (Based on the way they read it at the Haig - REF
Research of Freddy Alexander Ronald Tiedemann Croese)
1 Hermann 'of Saxony'
+Wife of Hermann 'of Saxony'
2 Bernhard I 'of Saxony'
+Hildegarde
3 Bernhard II 'of Saxony'
+Elika
4 Ortholf 'of Saxony'
+Gertrud 'van Haldensleben'
5 Magnus 'of Saxony'**************
Which underlying sources support the two versions?
Thanks,
Dave Botts
DavidBotts
This is the way we figure the FDR line in Texas. Does anyone have better names
for Lord and Lady Strange? Appreciate any corrections.
Dave Botts
Down in Texas, by George!<g>
1 Edward III 'of England'
.... +Philippa 'of Hainault'
2 John 'of Gaunt'
.... +Catherine 'of Roet'
3 Joan Beaufort
.... +Ralph Neville
4 Richard Neville
.... +Alice Montagu
5 Eleanor Neville
.... +Thomas Stanley
6 'Lord Strange' ****
.... +Wife of 'Lord Strange' ***
7 [2] Thomas Stanley
.... +[1] Anne Hastings
8 Margaret Stanley
.... +Robert Radcliffe
9 Jane Radcliffe
.... +Anthony Brown
10 Anthony Brown
.... +Mary Dormer
11 Dorothy Brown
.... +Edmund Lee
12 Dorothy Lee
.... +John Temple
13 Mary Temple
.... +Robert Nelson
14 John Nelson
.... +Elizabeth Trailer
15 Rebecca Nelson
.... +Henry Lloyd
16 Margaret Lloyd
.... +William Henry Smith
17 Rebecca Smith
.... +John Aspinwall
18 John Aspinwall
.... +Susan Howland
19 Mary Rebecca Aspinwall
.... +Isaac Roosevelt
20 James Roosevelt
.... +Sara Delano
21 Franklin Delano 'President' Roosevelt
5 Catherine Neville
.... +William Hastings
6 Edward Hastings
.... +Mary Hungerford
7 [1] Anne Hastings
.... +[2] Thomas Stanley
DavidBotts
Margaret Pole b. 1473? I show her beheaded - should that be corrected to hung,
drawn and quartered?
Benjamin Hertzel
This is the way we figure the FDR line in Texas. Does anyone have better names
>for Lord and Lady Strange? Appreciate any corrections.
5 Eleanor Neville
>.... +Thomas Stanley
> 6 'Lord Strange' ****
>.... +Wife of 'Lord Strange' ***
I show George Stanley and Johanna Strange.
Benjamin
Francisco Antonio Doria
>Hi Tim (and all):
>
>Margaret Pole b. 1473? I show her beheaded - should that be corrected to
>hung,
>drawn and quartered?
Beheaded, in a ghastly execution. She refused to lower her head to the
block, as unfit of her royal blood, and defied the executioner to go
after her, which he did, throwing the axe several times against her head,
while she fled him.
There is a graphic description of this at the end of Aynsworth's _The
Tower of London_, in the executioner's beheading song...
chico
John Steele Gordon
> Margaret Pole b. 1473? I show her beheaded - should that be corrected to hung,
> drawn and quartered?
Well, it's hanged, drawn and quartered. Pictures are hung, but people
are hanged. You will have to ask the Gods of the English language why
that should be, but it is.
But she was not hanged, she was beheaded, brutally and incompetently,
and doubtless suffered terribly in the process. Henry VIII had, God
knows, a lot to answer for, but having an old lady murdered because he
feared the blood in her veins may be his most unforgivable act.
JSG
--
http://www.familyorigins.com/users/g/o/r/John-S-Gordon
ED MANN
>
> Hi DSH and all:
>
> This is the way we figure the FDR line in Texas. Does anyone have better names
> for Lord and Lady Strange? Appreciate any corrections.
What I've got:
Direct Descendants of Edward III of England
1 Edward III of England b: 13 Nov 1312 d: 21 Jun 1377 ref #: F229:12
+Philippa de Hainault b: Abt. 1314 d: 15 Aug 1369 ref #: Ä103-34
2 [4] Lionel Plantagenet aka: Lionel of Antwerp / Duke of Clarence b:
29 Nov 1338 d: 17 Oct 1368 ref #: F230:11
+Elizabeth de Burgh b: 6 Jul 1332 d: 10 Dec 1363 ref #: F43:12i
3 Philippa Plantagenet b: 16 Aug 1355 d: 5 Jan 1381/82 ref #:
F231:10
+Edmund de Mortimer aka: 3d Earl of March & Ulster b: 1 Feb
1351/52 d: 27 Dec 1381 ref #: W36-9
4 [3] Elizabeth de Mortimer b: 12 Feb 1370/71 d: 20 Apr 1417 ref #:
F148:10
+Henry de Percy aka: "Harry Hotspur" b: 20 May 1364 d: 21 Jul 1403
ref #: F219:9i
5 [29] Henry Percy aka: 2d Earl of Northumberland b: 3 Feb 1392/93 d:
22 May 1455 ref #: F149:9
+[28] Alainor Neville b: Abt. 1407 d: 1472 ref #: F15:11ivf
6 Henry Percy aka: 3d Earl of Northumberland b: 25 Jul 1421 d: 29 Mar
1461 ref #: F149:8
+Alianor Poynings b: Abt. 1422 d: Feb 1483/84 ref #: BxP:211
7 Anne Percy ref #: F149:7ii
+Thomas Hungerford d: 1469 ref #: F32:9
8 [2] Mary Hungerford b: Abt. 1467 d: Bef. 10 Jul 1533 ref #: F32:9i
+[25] Edward Hastings aka: Lord Hastings of Hungerford b: 26 Nov
1466 d: 8 Nov 1506 ref #: F134:7
9 [27] Anne Hastings d: May 1550 ref #: F200:7
+[26] Thomas Stanley aka: 10th Baron Strange of Knockyn / 2d Earl
of Derby b: Bef. 1485 d: 23 May 1521 ref #: F108:8i
10 Margaret Stanley ref #: F200:6
+Robert Radcliffe aka: K.G. / 2d Lord FitzWalter b: Abt. 1483 d:
27 Nov 1542 ref #: F234:7i
11 [22] Jane Radcliffe b: Abt. 1532 d: 22 Jul 1552 ref #: F201:5
+[21] Anthony Browne aka: 1st Viscount Montacute b: 1528 d: 19 Oct
1592 ref #: BxP:79
12 Anthony Browne d: 29 Jun 1592 ref #: BxP:79
+Mary Dormer d: 1637 ref #: BxP:79
13 Dorothy Browne ref #: BxP:79
+Edmund Lee ref #: BxP:79
14 Dorothy Lee d: 1625 ref #: F202:2
+John Temple b: 1593 d: 23 Sep 1632 ref #: AAP:239
15 Mary Temple b: Abt. 1623 ref #: F202:1
+Robert Nelson ref #: AAP:239
16 John Nelson b: 1654 d: 15 Nov 1734 ref #: F202:1iii
+Elizabeth Tailer aka: Elizabeth Taylor ref #: AAP:203
17 Rebecca Nelson ref #: AAP:203
+Henry Lloyd ref #: AAP:203
18 [17] Margaret Lloyd ref #: AAP:203
+[16] William Henry Smith ref #: AAP:203
19 Rebecca Smith ref #: AAP:203
+John Aspinwall ref #: AAP:203
20 John Aspinwall, Jr. ref #: AAP:203
+Susan Howland ref #: AAP:203
21 Mary Rebecca Aspinwall b: 1809 d: 1886 ref #: AAP:203
+Isaac Roosevelt b: 1790 d: 1863 ref #: AAP:203
22 [1] James Roosevelt b: 16 Jul 1828 d: 8 Dec 1900 ref #: AAP:202
*2nd Wife of [1] James Roosevelt:
+[7] Sara Ann Delano b: 21 Sep 1854 d: 7 Sep 1941 ref #: AAP:202
23 Franklin Delano Roosevelt aka: 32d President of the United States
b: 30 Jan 1882 d: 15 Apr 1945 ref #: AAP:202
*2nd Husband of [2] Mary Hungerford:
*2nd Husband of [3] Elizabeth de Mortimer:
+Thomas de Camoys aka: K.B. / K.G. / 1st Baron Camoys d: 28 Mar
1421 ref #: BPci:364
*2nd Wife of [4] Lionel Plantagenet:
2 [5] John of Gaunt aka: John Plantagenet b: Mar 1339/40 d: 3 Feb
1398/99 ref #: F15:11
*2nd Wife of [5] John of Gaunt:
*3rd Wife of [5] John of Gaunt:
+Katherine Röet aka: Katherine Swynford b: 1350 d: 10 May 1403
3 John Beaufort aka: Marquess of Dorset b: Abt. 1372 d: 16 Mar
1409/10 ref #: F16:10
+Margaret de Holand b: 1385 d: 30 Dec 1429 ref #: F140:8ii
4 [14] Joan Beaufort b: 1407 d: 15 Jul 1445 ref #: F16:10v
+James I of Scotland b: Dec 1394 d: 21 Feb 1436/37 ref #: Ä252-34
5 James II of Scotland b: 16 Oct 1430 d: 3 Aug 1460 ref #: W92-11
+Maria von Egmond b: 1432 d: 1 Dec 1463 ref #: (Ä252-35)
6 [6] Mary Stewart b: Bef. 16 May 1452 d: May 1488 ref #: W92A-12
*2nd Husband of [6] Mary Stewart:
+James Hamilton aka: 1st Lord Hamilton b: Abt. 1415 d: 16 Nov 1479
ref #: BPci:3
7 [13] James Hamilton aka: 2d Baron Hamilton / 1st Earl of Arran b:
Abt. 1475 d: Bef. Jul 1529 ref #: W92A-13
8 John Hamilton ref #: AAP:202
+Janet Home ref #: AAP:202
9 Margaret Hamilton ref #: BxP:175
+David Douglas aka: 7th Earl of Angus d: 1558 ref #: BxP:175
10 [12] Margaret Douglas d: 1640 ref #: BxP:175
+Walter Scott d: 17 Apr 1574 ref #: BPci:311
11 Mary Scott ref #: AAP:202
+William Elliot ref #: AAP:202
12 Jean Elliot ref #: AAP:202
+Thomas Rutherford ref #: AAP:202
13 Robert Rutherford ref #: AAP:202
+Marion Riddell ref #: AAP:202
14 John Rutherford ref #: AAP:202
+Barbara Abernethy ref #: AAP:202
15 Barbara Rutherford ref #: AAP:202
+Archibald Bennet ref #: AAP:202
16 Andrew Bennet ref #: AAP:202
+Dorothy Collingwood ref #: AAP:202
17 [9] Barbara Bennet ref #: AAP:202
+[8] James Murray ref #: AAP:202
18 Elizabeth Murray b: Abt. 1758 ref #: AAP:202
+Edward Hutchinson Robbins b: 19 Feb 1758 d: 29 Dec 1829 ref #:
AAP:202
19 Anne Jean Robbins b: 3 Jul 1789 d: 24 May 1867 ref #: AAP:202
+Joseph Lyman III b: 22 Oct 1767 d: 11 Dec 1847 ref #: AAP:202
20 Catharine Robbins Lyman b: 12 Jan 1825 d: 10 Feb 1896 ref #:
AAP:202
+Warren Delano b: 13 Jul 1809 d: 17 Jan 1898 ref #: AAP:202
21 [7] Sara Ann Delano b: 21 Sep 1854 d: 7 Sep 1941 ref #: AAP:202
+[1] James Roosevelt b: 16 Jul 1828 d: 8 Dec 1900 ref #: AAP:202
16 [11] Anne Bennet ref #: AAP:202
+[10] John Murray ref #: AAP:202
17 [8] James Murray ref #: AAP:202
+[9] Barbara Bennet ref #: AAP:202
11 Walter Scott aka: 1st Baron Scott of Buccleuch d: 15 Dec 1611 ref
#: BPci:311
+Mary Kerr aka: Margaret Kerr ref #: AAP:202
12 Walter Scott aka: 1st Earl of Buccleuch d: 20 Nov 1633 ref #:
BPci:311
13 Francis Scott ref #: AAP:202
14 Elizabeth Scott ref #: AAP:202
+John Scott aka: 1st Baronet Scott ref #: AAP:202
15 Margaret Scott ref #: AAP:202
+John Murray ref #: AAP:202
16 [10] John Murray ref #: AAP:202
+[11] Anne Bennet ref #: AAP:202
*2nd Husband of [12] Margaret Douglas:
*2nd Wife of [13] James Hamilton:
*2nd Husband of [14] Joan Beaufort:
3 Henry Beaufort aka: Bishop of Winchester;Lord Chancellor of England
b: Abt. 1375 d: 11 Apr 1447 ref #: F15:11ii
+Alice FitzAlan b: Abt. 1374 ref #: F106:12i
4 Jane Beaufort aka: Joan Beaufort b: Abt. 1391 ref #: F15:11iia
+Edward Stradling b: Abt. 1389 d: 1453 ref #: (Ä199A-33)
5 Henry Stradling aka: Knt. b: Abt. 1423 d: Abt. 1477 ref #: W27-10
+Elizabeth aka: Elizabeth Herbert ref #: (Ä199A-34)
6 Thomas Stradling b: Abt. 1454 d: 8 Sep 1480 ref #: W27-11
+Janet Mathew d: 1485 ref #: (Ä199A-35)
7 Jane Stradling b: Abt. 1478 d: Bef. 1520 ref #: Ä199A-36
+William Griffith aka: Chamberlain of N. Wales b: Abt. 1480 d:
Aft. 1519 ref #: F74:4
8 [18] Dorothy Griffith ref #: F74:3
+William Wynn Williams ref #: (Ä199-37)
9 Jane Williams ref #: F74:2
+William Coytemore ref #: W104-15
10 [15] Rowland Coytemore b: Abt. 1567 d: 1626 ref #: F75:1
*2nd Wife of [15] Rowland Coytemore:
*3rd Wife of [15] Rowland Coytemore:
+Katherine Miles d: 28 Nov 1659 ref #: (Ä199-39)
11 Elizabeth Coytemore b: Abt. 1617 d: Abt. 1649 ref #: F75:1ii
+William Tyng b: Abt. 1605 d: 18 Jan 1652/53 ref #: (Ä199-40)
12 Anna Tyng b: 6 Jan 1639/40 d: 5 Aug 1709 ref #: F75:1iib
+Thomas Shepard, Jr. b: 5 Apr 1635 d: 22 Dec 1677 ref #: AAP:5
13 Thomas Shepard III ref #: AAP:203
+Mary Anderson ref #: AAP:203
14 Anna Shepard ref #: AAP:203
+Henry Smith ref #: AAP:203
15 [16] William Henry Smith ref #: AAP:203
+[17] Margaret Lloyd ref #: AAP:203
*2nd Husband of [18] Dorothy Griffith:
3 [19] Joan Beaufort b: Abt. 1379 d: 13 Nov 1440 ref #: F15:11iv
*2nd Husband of [19] Joan Beaufort:
+Ralph de Neville aka: 1st Earl of Westmorland b: Abt. 1364 d: 21
Oct 1425 ref #: W45-7
4 Richard Neville aka: Earl of Salisbury b: Abt. 1400 d: 30 Dec 1460
ref #: F15:11ivb
+Alice Montacute b: Abt. 1408 d: Bef. 9 Dec 1462 ref #: F193:8
5 John Neville aka: Marquess of Montacute b: Abt. 1431 d: 14 Apr 1471
ref #: F194:7
+Isabel Ingoldisthorpe b: 1441 d: 25 May 1476 ref #: F58:9i
6 [20] Lucy Neville b: 1468 d: 25 Mar 1534 ref #: F194:7ii
*2nd Husband of [20] Lucy Neville:
+Anthony Browne d: 19 Nov 1506 ref #: F38:7
7 [23] Anthony Browne d: 6 May 1548 ref #: F38:6
+Alice Gage d: Aft. Jul 1540
8 [21] Anthony Browne aka: 1st Viscount Montacute b: 1528 d: 19 Oct
1592 ref #: BxP:79
+[22] Jane Radcliffe b: Abt. 1532 d: 22 Jul 1552 ref #: F201:5
*2nd Wife of [21] Anthony Browne:
*2nd Wife of [23] Anthony Browne:
5 [24] Katherine Neville b: Abt. 1435 d: Bef. 25 Mar 1504 ref #:
F134:8
*2nd Husband of [24] Katherine Neville:
+William Hastings aka: 1st Lord Hastings b: Abt. 1431 d: 14 Jun
1483 ref #: (F134:8)
6 [25] Edward Hastings aka: Lord Hastings of Hungerford b: 26 Nov
1466 d: 8 Nov 1506 ref #: F134:7
+[2] Mary Hungerford b: Abt. 1467 d: Bef. 10 Jul 1533 ref #:
F32:9i
5 Alainor Neville b: Abt. 1438 d: Bef. 1474 ref #: F193:6iv
+Thomas Stanley aka: 2d Lord Stanley / 1st Earl of Derby b: Abt.
1435 d: 29 Jul 1504 ref #: F107:9
6 George Stanley aka: K.B. / K.G. / Lord Strange b: Abt. 1460 d: Dec
1503 ref #: F108:8
+Joan le Strange aka: Baroness Strange of Knockyn b: Abt. 1463 d:
20 Mar 1513/14 ref #: BxP:516
7 [26] Thomas Stanley aka: 10th Baron Strange of Knockyn / 2d Earl of
Derby b: Bef. 1485 d: 23 May 1521 ref #: F108:8i
+[27] Anne Hastings d: May 1550 ref #: F200:7
4 [28] Alainor Neville b: Abt. 1407 d: 1472 ref #: F15:11ivf
*2nd Husband of [28] Alainor Neville:
+[29] Henry Percy aka: 2d Earl of Northumberland b: 3 Feb 1392/93
d: 22 May 1455 ref #: F149:9
Paul Edward Garner-Richards
D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:85i7k9$l6n$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net...
> I've recently been doing some work on the ancestors of American
> Presidents. George Washington is a particularly interesting case.
> His 3rd Great-Grandparents were Lawrence Washington and Margaret
> Butler. Margaret Butler is a descendant of King Edward I [1239-1307]
> 'Longshanks'.
>
>
How is Margaret Butler descended from King Edward I?
Thanks
Paul Garner-Richards
pa...@garner-richards.freeserve.co.uk
Andrew S. Kalinkin
> But she was not hanged, she was beheaded, brutally and incompetently,
> and doubtless suffered terribly in the process. Henry VIII had, God
> knows, a lot to answer for, but having an old lady murdered because he
> feared the blood in her veins may be his most unforgivable act.
It doesn't make this act less brutal, but still her execution had nothing
to do with 'blood in her veins'.
Andrew
DavidBotts
So what did the Countess of Salisbury do that was so bad? And wasn't she
afterwards sainted? (assuming my records are correct?)
Dave
RE> It doesn't make this act less brutal, but still her execution had nothing
Leo van de Pas
quartered. He chased her through the room apparently, there is a detailed
report on it.
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: DavidBotts <david...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 2:34 AM
Subject: Re: Margaret Butler [ante 1568-1652] Wife of Lawrence
Washington[circa 1568-1616]
> Hi Tim (and all):
>
> Margaret Pole b. 1473? I show her beheaded - should that be corrected to
hung,
> drawn and quartered?
>
Leo van de Pas
was executed. Henry VIII could not get hold of Cardinal Reginald Pole (son
of Margaret) and so it was Margaret who lost her head. She was the last
legitimate 'Plantagenet'.
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: DavidBotts <david...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: Margaret Butler [ante 1568-1652] Wife of Lawrence
Washington[circa
John Steele Gordon
> So what did the Countess of Salisbury do that was so bad? And wasn't she
> afterwards sainted? (assuming my records are correct?)
She didn't do anything, besides being the last Plantagenet. Her son,
Reginald Pole, a deacon and theologian (he was dean of Exeter), was
offered the Archbishopric of York, provided he back the King on his
divorce from Catherine of Aragon. He refused but was given permission to
go abroad and keep his revenues. In 1535 he was required to formally
declare his opinion on the divorce and the break with Rome. His response
was a classic work of the counterreformation called Pro ecclesiasticae
unitatis defensione. It was a strong defense of papal authority. It was
intended for the King only, but found its way into print. The following
year he was made a cardinal. The Pope tried to use Pole to get at the
King, and the King, unable to get at Pole, went after his family. His
eldest brother, Lord Montague and a cousin, the Marquess of Exeter, were
executed in 1538. He and his mother were attainted in 1539. His mother
was executed in 1541.
To be sure, Margaret died because the King used her as a means of
attacking her son, but she also was a daughter of George, Duke of
Clarence, brother of Edward IV, and thus had a strong claim to the
throne. She was
Henry VIII's 1st cousin once removed. The rebellion known as the
Pilgrimage of Grace had broken out in 1537 (the Pope had tried to
exploit it for his own purposes, using Pole to do so) and Henry feared
that any new rebellion might try to coalesce around Margaret and her
sons.
Yes, she was beatified as a martyr. Reginald Pole would be made
Archbishop of Canterbury in the reign of Mary I (having been ordained a
priest two days earlier).
He would probably have been content to live out his life quietly
studying theology in a place like Padua. His times and his birth saw to
it that his life was anything but quiet.
JSG
--
http://www.familyorigins.com/users/g/o/r/John-S-Gordon
DavidBotts
England, Lawrance at St. Michael's, Brington, County Northampton, England.
Dave
BTW, who all is buried at Mt. Vernon aside from George - been 32 years since I
was there and I didn't take notes.
ED MANN
>
> D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote in message
> news:85i7k9$l6n$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net...
> > I've recently been doing some work on the ancestors of American
> > Presidents. George Washington is a particularly interesting case.
> > His 3rd Great-Grandparents were Lawrence Washington and Margaret
> > Butler. Margaret Butler is a descendant of King Edward I [1239-1307]
> > 'Longshanks'.
> >
> >
>
> How is Margaret Butler descended from King Edward I?
Direct Descendants of Edward I of England
1 [9] Edward I of England aka: "Longshanks" b: 17 Jun 1239 d: 1307
ref #: BRF:81
+Alianore de Castile b: 1240 d: 28 Nov 1290 ref #: Ä110-30
2 [8] Joan Plantagenet aka: Joan of England; Joan of Acre b: 1272 d:
23 Apr 1307 ref #: F60:12
+Gilbert de Clare aka: 3d Earl of Gloucester; 7th Earl of Hertford
b: 2 Sep 1243 d: 7 Dec 1295 ref #: W28-4
3 [1] Margaret de Clare b: Oct 1292 d: 9 Apr 1342 ref #: F5:13
*2nd Husband of [1] Margaret de Clare:
+Hugh de Audley aka: 2d Baron Audley; 8th Earl of Gloucester b:
Abt. 1289 d: 10 Nov 1347 ref #: W150-6
4 Margaret de Audley aka: Baroness b: Abt. 1325 d: 16 Sep 1348 ref #:
F5:12
+Ralph de Stafford aka: 1st Earl of Stafford b: 24 Sep 1301 d: 31
Aug 1372 ref #: W136-6
5 [3] Joan de Stafford d: Bef. 1397 ref #: F57:12
+John Cherleton aka: 3d Baron Cherleton b: Abt. 1334 d: 13 Jul
1374 ref #: BxP:116
6 [2] Edward Cherleton aka: 5th Baron Cherleton b: Abt. 1371 d: 14
Mar 1420/21 ref #: F57:11
+[11] Alainor [I] de Holand b: Bef. 1387 d: Oct 1405 ref #:
F140:8iii
7 Joyce Cherleton b: Abt. 1403 d: 22 Sep 1446 ref #: F58:10
+John Tiptoft aka: 1st Baron Tiptoft d: 1443 ref #: BxP:533
8 [6] Joyce Tiptoft ref #: F58:10iii
+[5] Edmund Sutton aka: Edmund Dudley d: Abt. 1485 ref #: F91:5
9 John Sutton d: 1541 ref #: F274:5
+ aka: ? Charroll ref #: AAP:365
10 Margaret Sutton d: 1563 ref #: F274:4
+John Butler ref #: AAP:365
11 William Butler b: 1540 d: 1562 ref #: F274:3
+Margaret Greeke b: 1544 d: 1580 ref #: AAP:2
12 Margaret Butler b: 1568 d: 16 Mar 1651/52 ref #: F274:2
*2nd Wife of [2] Edward Cherleton:
+[4] Elizabeth Berkeley d: Abt. 8 Dec 1478 ref #: W80A-8
*2nd Husband of [3] Joan de Stafford:
5 Katherine de Stafford b: Abt. 1340 d: Bef. 26 Dec 1361 ref #:
F90:9
+John de Sutton III aka: 2d Baron Sutton of Dudley b: Abt. Nov
1338 d: Abt. 1369 ref #: Ã81-33
6 [7] John de Sutton IV aka: 3d Baron Sutton of Dudley b: 6 Dec 1361
d: 10 Mar 1395/96 ref #: F90:8
+Alice aka: Alice le Despencer d: 1392 ref #: (Ä81-33)
7 John de Sutton V aka: 3d Baron Dudley b: Feb 1379/80 d: 28 Aug 1406
ref #: F90:7
+Constancia Blount b: Abt. 1385 d: 23 Sep 1432 ref #: BxP:55
8 John Sutton VI aka: 4th Baron Dudley b: 25 Dec 1400 d: 30 Sep 1487
ref #: F91:6
+[4] Elizabeth Berkeley d: Abt. 8 Dec 1478 ref #: W80A-8
9 [5] Edmund Sutton aka: Edmund Dudley d: Abt. 1485 ref #: F91:5
+[6] Joyce Tiptoft ref #: F58:10iii
*2nd Wife of [5] Edmund Sutton:
*2nd Wife of [7] John de Sutton IV:
*2nd Husband of [8] Joan Plantagenet:
*2nd Wife of [9] Edward I of England:
+Marguerite de France b: 1279 d: 1317 ref #: Ä155-30
2 [10] Edmund Plantagenet aka: Edmund of Kent b: 5 Aug 1301 d: 19 Mar
1329/30 ref #: F226:14xvii
*2nd Wife of [10] Edmund Plantagenet:
+Margaret Wake aka: Lady Wake b: Abt. 1299 d: 29 Sep 1349 ref #:
W114-5
3 [12] Joan Plantagenet aka: "Fair Maid of Kent" b: 29 Sep 1328 d: 7
Aug 1385 ref #: F139:9
+Thomas de Holand aka: 1st Earl of Kent d: 26 Dec 1360 ref #:
W90-7
4 Thomas de Holand aka: 2d Earl of Kent b: Abt. 1350 d: 25 Apr 1397
ref #: F140:8
+Alice FitzAlan d: 17 Mar 1415/16 ref #: F105:13iv
5 [11] Alainor [I] de Holand b: Bef. 1387 d: Oct 1405 ref #:
F140:8iii
*2nd Husband of [11] Alainor [I] de Holand:
+[2] Edward Cherleton aka: 5th Baron Cherleton b: Abt. 1371 d: 14
Mar 1420/21 ref #: F57:11
Clarence Morris
up for a Lady Mary Stanley born about 1506 died about 1545 daughter of George Stanley and Baroness
Joan Strange. Thank you Sharon
ED MANN wrote:
Andrew S. Kalinkin
> The blood in her veins (Plantagenet blood) was part of the reasons why she
> was executed. Henry VIII could not get hold of Cardinal Reginald Pole (son
> of Margaret) and so it was Margaret who lost her head.
This is exactly what I mean. Margaret Pole was doomed by actions of her son.
Until her family and the king took oposite sides in this great political and
religious conflict, she was treated with respect and honor for many years,
and her Plantagenet blood didn't harm her. Of course, if she belonged to less
prominent family, Henry VIII would probably take the rhings less seriously
(he didn't execute anybody from More's family, for example). So probably her
blood played some role in her fate. But "her blood" wasn't primary reason for
her execution.
Andrew
Paul C. Reed
Clarence Morris wrote in message <3883D073...@sk.sympatico.ca>...
>I don't have access to alot of those references that you listed. Is there
anyone that will do a look
>up for a Lady Mary Stanley born about 1506 died about 1545 daughter of
George Stanley and Baroness
>Joan Strange. Thank you Sharon
Sir George Stanley, d. 4/5 Dec. 1503, Lord Strange of Knockyn, m. by 26 Feb.
1480, Joane le Strange, of Knockyn, Shropshire, aged 16 in 1479, d. 20 Mar.
1513/14, daughter and heir of John LeStrange, Lord Strange of Knockyn, b. 20
May 1444, d. 16 Oct. 1479, possibly by his first wife Jacquette, stated by
Dugdale to be daughter of Richard Wydeville, 1st Earl Rivers, by Jacquette
de Luxembourg, Duchess of Bedford.
Sir George, who predeceased hi sfather, was son and heir apparent of Thomas
Stanley, 1st Earl of Derby, by his wife Eleanor Neville, daughter of Richard
Neville, Earl of Salisbury.
There are several good genealogies on this Stanley family, but I do not have
them here. Burke's Extinct Peerage does not list a daughter named Mary,
just Jane and Elizabeth. Bridges' Collins' Peerage *1812) 3:67 likewise
lists no Mary. Joan (le Strange) Stanley left a willdated 6 July 1513 and
proved 3 May 1514. The above is from CP under Strange of Knockyn and Earl
of Derby. Her will is listed in the index to the PCC (1514) 32 Fetiplace.
It looks like Mary may not belong to this family.
Paul
Tim Powys-Lybbe
John Steele Gordon <JSGGen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> DavidBotts wrote:
>
> > So what did the Countess of Salisbury do that was so bad? And wasn't she
> > afterwards sainted? (assuming my records are correct?)
>
<snip>
> Yes, she was beatified as a martyr.
Do you know when? And any further details? Ruvigny referrred to her as
"Blessed" in c.1904 and I had wondered if this meant she had been
beatified by then.
<snip>
>
> JSG
Tim Powys-Lybbe
fad...@rio.com.br (Francisco Antonio Doria) wrote:
> 1/16/00 6:34 PM DavidBotts remarked:
>
> >Hi Tim (and all):
> >
> >Margaret Pole b. 1473? I show her beheaded - should that be corrected to
> >hung,
> >drawn and quartered?
>
> Beheaded, in a ghastly execution. She refused to lower her head to the
> block, as unfit of her royal blood, and defied the executioner to go
> after her, which he did, throwing the axe several times against her head,
> while she fled him.
>
> There is a graphic description of this at the end of Aynsworth's _The
> Tower of London_, in the executioner's beheading song...
I have never seen this mentioned in any other account. Chapuys only
talks of the incompetent axeman who had to take rather too many hacks at
her neck, nothing of a chase around the room.
Further in the British Dictionary of National Biography there is a note:
"The account of Margaret's execution given by Lord Herbert of Cherbury
in Kennet's England (ii, 227) is clearly not so trustworthy as that of
Chapuys."
>
> chico
Dennis J. Cunniff
>
> > DavidBotts wrote:
> > [Margaret Pole] was beatified as a martyr.
>
> Do you know when? And any further details? Ruvigny referrred to her as
> "Blessed" in c.1904 and I had wondered if this meant she had been
> beatified by then.
Margaret Pole was beatified (with 49 other English Martyrs)
by Leo XIII, 29 December 1886.
There is a list of the English martyrs and confessors in the Catholic
Encyclopedia,
though without their dates of beatification. It can be found at:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05474a.htm
Francisco Antonio Doria
>I have never seen this mentioned in any other account. Chapuys only
>talks of the incompetent axeman who had to take rather too many hacks at
>her neck, nothing of a chase around the room.
>
>Further in the British Dictionary of National Biography there is a note:
>
> "The account of Margaret's execution given by Lord Herbert of Cherbury
> in Kennet's England (ii, 227) is clearly not so trustworthy as that of
> Chapuys."
This is a ghastly subject, but as everybody here has someone up in his or
hers tree who was similarly victimized, let me give my sources: a
beefeater's speech during a tour at the Tower, oh yes, that's not
reliable, not even respectable, ok, why do I mention it; well, I must
say, I was curious and later found the same incident described in a pop
book on the Tower (a Life book, I think), and, finally, in Aynsworth's
novel.
I don't know its sources.
The legend goes as follows: the scaffold was erected at Tower Green (this
is historical). She refused to bend her neck to the block, as being unfit
for a person of the blood royal, and defied the executioner to go after
her on the scaffold, which he did. Aynsworth adds that the executioner's
name was Mauger, and that he was lame.
Another point: while beheading was universally practiced as a `clean'
(well, not always so) fomr of capital punishment for those of gentle
birth, its actual implementation varied widely. In Spain and Portugal
they cut the neck through the throat: the Duke of Braganza was made to
lie on his back, his head covered, turned to the right, and then the
executioner cut his throat. In Spain they would sit the victim to a
chair, tie him, expose the throat, rapidly make a huge gash on it, to the
bone, and then finish by cutting the head at the back of the neck. I
don't know where this *modus operandi* came from, but it became very
popular in the Brazilian South (and in many fights in Argentina and
Uruguay); the first gash is called `la corbata roja' (a gravata
vermelha), the red tie, and even became a political symbol - one of our
party leaders exhibits a red kerchief around his throat in public
meetings. It is a mark of the *maragato* faction in our South.
A note: I owe the data on Mendo Guterres' family and sources. Right now
I'm on the road. Will answer it in a couple of days.
chico
jmontgo...@gmail.com
> I've recently been doing some work on the ancestors of American
> Presidents. George Washington is a particularly interesting case.
> His 3rd Great-Grandparents were Lawrence Washington and Margaret
> Butler. Margaret Butler is a descendant of King Edward I [1239-1307]
> 'Longshanks'.
>
> ancestors back to his Great-Grandparents. He says so in his collected
> papers, published in 1932, the 200th anniversary of his birth.
>
> George Washington died on 14 December 1799, so we have just passed
> over the 200th anniversary of the death of a man who, probably more
> than any other single individual, was responsible for the survival of
> the weak, fledgling United States.
>
> The recent A&E Film, "The Crossing" draws out some of these vital
> lessons that have been forgotten in the politically correct stampede
> to multi-culturalism. The film, based on a book by Howard Fast, is
> concerned with Washington's crossing the Delaware River and defeating
> Colonel Rall's Hessians in the Battle of Trenton, on 26 December 1776.
>
> From Gary Boyd Roberts' _Ancestors of American Presidents_ and other
> standard sources, I've constructed the incomplete _seize quartiers_
> infra.
>
> Can we collectively add to it and round out the picture of our first
> President's English ancestors?
>
> Ancestors of Margaret BUTLER - 12 Jan 2000
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> FIRST GENERATION
>
> 1. Margaret BUTLER was born in 1568 in Tyes Hall, Cuckfield County,
> Sussex, England. She died on 16 Mar 1651/52. She has reference
> number Washington-33.
>
>
>
> SECOND GENERATION
>
> 2. William BUTLER of Tyes Hall, Cuckfield, Sussex was born in 1524 in
> Tighes, Cuckfield County, Sussex. He has reference number
> Washington-66.
>
> 3. Margaret GREEKE of Palsters, Lancashire and London was born in
> 1534. She died in 1580. She has reference number Washington-67.
>
>
>
> THIRD GENERATION
>
> 4. John BUTLER Gentleman of Aston le Wells was born in 1489 in
> Sawbridgeworth, Herfordshire, England. He died on 17 Apr 1563. He
> has reference number Washington-132.
>
> 5. Margaret SUTTON was born in 1492 in Aston-le-Welles,
> Northamptonshire, England. She died in 1563/64. She has reference
> number Washington-133.
>
> 6. Thomas GREEKE of Palsters, County Lancaster. He was married to
> Jane THOMSON.
>
> 7. Jane THOMSON.
>
>
>
> FOURTH GENERATION
>
> 8. Ralph BUTLER of Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire was born between
> 1450 and 1470. He was married.
>
> 10. Sir John SUTTON of Dudley of Aston le Wells was born in 1461 in
> Aston-le-Welles, Northamptonshire, England. He was living in 1541.
> He
> has reference number Washington-266.
>
> 11. (Margaret) CHARROLL was born about 1465 in England. She has
> reference number Washington-267.
>
> 14. George THOMSON. He was married.
>
>
>
> FIFTH GENERATION
>
> 20. Sir Edmund SUTTON was born about 1425 in Dudley Castle,
> Worchestershire, England. He died between 6 Jul 1483 and 30 Sep 1487.
> He has reference number Washington-532. He was married to Joyce
> TIPTOFT before 1459.
>
> 21. Joyce TIPTOFT was born about 1430 in Worcestershire, England.
> She died in 1485 in Dudley, Worcestershire, England. She has
> reference number Washington-533.
>
> --
>
> D. Spencer Hines
>
> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>
> "It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for
> two thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an
> honour to the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation
> slipped into the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the
> Intellectuals] (1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
I just found out through ancestry.com, that, I am directly related to Margaret Butler, somehow on my Maternal grand-father's side. I am not sure the connection yet, but, maybe with your research and mine, I will be able to make the connection. Thank you for posting.
-Jackie M.