Maud de Senlis Question

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joe...@gmail.com

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Nov 17, 2019, 11:15:37 AM11/17/19
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With the discussion on the de Senlis family group, I noticed in my notes multiple reconstructions of another de Senlis.

Maud de Senlis, daughter of Simon de Senlis and Maud de Huntington is described in two ways.

One common reconstruction shows Maud married 1) Robert de Clare 2) William d'Aubeney 3) Saher de Quincy as here on page 15:

(http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Senlis.pdf)

Another reconstruction instead shows that Maud, daughter of Simon de Senlis married only 1) and 3) above, and with Robert de Clare had a daughter named after her "Maud de Senlis" who was the wife of William d'Aubeney.

Genealogics takes the second approach:
https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00286798&tree=LEO

Is genealogics inventing a second Maud here?
Joe Cook

taf

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Nov 17, 2019, 12:19:25 PM11/17/19
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No, this is not something invented by Genealogics. See, for example, this chart in William Farrer's Early Yorkshire Charters (if you can see it), vol. 1 (1914), p. 461, which shows William de Aubigny Breto (II) married to Matilda de St. Liz, daughter of Robert Fitz Richard (de Clare) by Matilda de St. Liz:
https://archive.org/details/earlyyorkshirech01farruoft/page/461

Peter Stewart

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Nov 17, 2019, 6:14:48 PM11/17/19
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Round explained this in *Feudal England* (1909) pp 475-476, here:
https://archive.org/details/feudalenglandhi02roungoog/page/n496.

Apart from the proofs he gave, we know from Daventry priory charters
that the daughter of Simon de St Liz and Matilda (later wife of David I
of Scotland) married successively Robert fitz Richard and Saher de
Quincy - in the edition by Michael Franklin (1988), pp. 3-4 no. 8
("Matillda de Senliz ... notificetur me concessisse et in perpetuam et
liberam elemosinam dedisse deo et ecclesie sancti Augustini de Davintre
et monachis ibidem deo servientibus ... pro anima domini mei Roberti
filii Ricardi ... et viii acras de dominio meo iuxta terram quam regina
Matillda mater mea illis dedit") and p. 2 no. 5 ("Seiherus de Quinci et
Matilda de Senliz uxor eius ... Notum sit ... nos in perpetuam
elemosinam dedisse deo et ecclesie sancti Augustini de Daventre et
monachis ibidem deo servientibus ... viii acras de dominio nostro iuxta
terram quam regina Matilda illis dedit"). Both of these were ascribed
the date range 19 December 1148/27 December 1166 by Franklin.

This Matilda last occurs in an entry under Essex & Hertfordshire in the
pipe roll for 1154 ("Et Matildi . de Seinliz .vii. s.") and she died not
long afterwards since she was recorded as deceased in an extant
mid-12th-century original document, Daventry charters as above p. 39 no.
113 ("Matilde de Seinliz quondam domina de Daventre").

Her namesake daughter who used her surname had the happiness to be aged
both 50 and 60 decades later, in 1185, when she was recorded twice in
'Rotuli de dominabus', here p. 1:
https://archive.org/details/piperollsociety35pipeuoft/page/xlviii (where
"Norfolk" in note 2 is a mistake for Suffolk), and here p. 63:
https://archive.org/details/piperollsociety35pipeuoft/page/62.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

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Nov 17, 2019, 8:25:04 PM11/17/19
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The mental operation of adding 4 to 1154 defeated me - the elder Matilda of St Liz last occurs in the pipe roll for 1158.

Peter Stewart
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