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The Last Neville of Scotton
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John Watson
May 4, 2016, 2:58:32 PM5/4/16
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Dear all,
I have been searching in vain for a pedigree of the Nevilles of Scotton in the 14th century. The account in Complete Peerage, vol. 9, pp. 476-8 ends with Robert de Neville who founded a chantry in Scotton in 1294.
Robert de Neville died about 1316 and was succeeded by his son Philip, and he by his son Philip. Was there another Philip after these?
The last male heir if the Nevilles was a Philip de Neville who left a daughter and heiress Maud, successively wife of Sir William Cantelou (murdered at Scotton, 31 March 1375), Sir Thomas de Kydale (died before 30 November 1381) and Sir John Bussy (executed at Bristol on 29 July 1399). Maud died before June 1386 when Sir John Bussy was married to Mary, widow of John de Multon of Frampton (died in Prussia, 18 August 1368), and Ralph Daubeney of South Ingleby, South Petherton, etc. [this marriage is not shown in Complete Peerage] who died after December 1378.
Does anyone know when the last Philip Neville died and who he married?
Regards,
John
I have been searching in vain for a pedigree of the Nevilles of Scotton in the 14th century. The account in Complete Peerage, vol. 9, pp. 476-8 ends with Robert de Neville who founded a chantry in Scotton in 1294.
Robert de Neville died about 1316 and was succeeded by his son Philip, and he by his son Philip. Was there another Philip after these?
The last male heir if the Nevilles was a Philip de Neville who left a daughter and heiress Maud, successively wife of Sir William Cantelou (murdered at Scotton, 31 March 1375), Sir Thomas de Kydale (died before 30 November 1381) and Sir John Bussy (executed at Bristol on 29 July 1399). Maud died before June 1386 when Sir John Bussy was married to Mary, widow of John de Multon of Frampton (died in Prussia, 18 August 1368), and Ralph Daubeney of South Ingleby, South Petherton, etc. [this marriage is not shown in Complete Peerage] who died after December 1378.
Does anyone know when the last Philip Neville died and who he married?
Regards,
John
al...@mindspring.com
May 4, 2016, 3:10:45 PM5/4/16
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Hi John
I show Maud's parents as a Sir Robert son of Sir Philip and Isabel de Beaumont. Sir Robert marrying Joan Deincourt heiress of Sir Roger D. and Maud Bugge.
I only have secondary references: Rosie Bevan, A Study of A Medieval Knightly Family: The Longfords of Derbyshire, Part 1, Foundations, Vol. 1, Number 4, July 2004, pps 211-231. Robert Thoroton, History of Nottinghamshire, Volume 1, London, 1797, p 360.
And some of the information conflicts. I have not looked for any primary doc. so what I currently have may well be wrong.
Doug Smith
The Sir Robert I have did have an older brother Philip (I think)
Sorry I don't have more here.
I show Maud's parents as a Sir Robert son of Sir Philip and Isabel de Beaumont. Sir Robert marrying Joan Deincourt heiress of Sir Roger D. and Maud Bugge.
I only have secondary references: Rosie Bevan, A Study of A Medieval Knightly Family: The Longfords of Derbyshire, Part 1, Foundations, Vol. 1, Number 4, July 2004, pps 211-231. Robert Thoroton, History of Nottinghamshire, Volume 1, London, 1797, p 360.
And some of the information conflicts. I have not looked for any primary doc. so what I currently have may well be wrong.
Doug Smith
The Sir Robert I have did have an older brother Philip (I think)
Sorry I don't have more here.
Jason Quick
May 4, 2016, 7:12:35 PM5/4/16
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John
There is a Pedigree called, Treaunt, De Lay Hay & Neville of Brampton, in Bakers History of Northamptonshire. VOL 1 pg 83
The Phillip you are looking for shows.
Sir Phillip Nevill, of Brampton, ob. 24 Aug. 1353 (48 Edw 3.) = Sarah d. of ....ob. 12 Aug 1344 (18 Edw 3)
(Daughter) Maud, d. and h.;of Brampton; and Enderby,co. Leic Scotton and Malmeton, co. Linc. Parkhall and Moreton, co. Derb and Limethyft, co. Devon. = Sir John Bussy, of Houghton, co Linc. beheaded at Bristol, and attained Hen 4. (1399)
Jason
There is a Pedigree called, Treaunt, De Lay Hay & Neville of Brampton, in Bakers History of Northamptonshire. VOL 1 pg 83
The Phillip you are looking for shows.
Sir Phillip Nevill, of Brampton, ob. 24 Aug. 1353 (48 Edw 3.) = Sarah d. of ....ob. 12 Aug 1344 (18 Edw 3)
(Daughter) Maud, d. and h.;of Brampton; and Enderby,co. Leic Scotton and Malmeton, co. Linc. Parkhall and Moreton, co. Derb and Limethyft, co. Devon. = Sir John Bussy, of Houghton, co Linc. beheaded at Bristol, and attained Hen 4. (1399)
Jason
Jason Quick
May 5, 2016, 2:08:04 AM5/5/16
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More Neville of Scotton
This is from The history and antiquities of the county of Leicester v.4 pt.1. Nichols, John, 1745-1826, Neville info on pgs, 156-161, pedigree 167
The Pedigree is very inaccurate in earlier generations. Baker did mention he took some of his info from this pedigree.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=pst.000032377101;view=1up;seq=15
This is a link to the whole digital series of Nichols's books that were at one time next to impossible to find
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/100002521
This is from The history and antiquities of the county of Leicester v.4 pt.1. Nichols, John, 1745-1826, Neville info on pgs, 156-161, pedigree 167
The Pedigree is very inaccurate in earlier generations. Baker did mention he took some of his info from this pedigree.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=pst.000032377101;view=1up;seq=15
This is a link to the whole digital series of Nichols's books that were at one time next to impossible to find
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/100002521
al...@mindspring.com
May 5, 2016, 6:14:50 AM5/5/16
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The applicable part of Rosie Bevan's article I cited earlier in this thread is:
"In 1371 Sir Nicholas and Alice arranged to lease for 40 years, to their niece Maud Neville, sole heir of her parents, and her ill-fated first husband Sir William de Cantelupe 32 , "their purparty of Le Parkhall manor with appurtenances; saving all manner of rents, advowsons, profits of courts, their purparty of mills and the woods and pastures of their parks, and their purparty of Colebotirley, Asshouere, Chestirfeld, Aluy Wod, Grayhirstmore, Brampton Wode, and Molotgroue, of lands and tenements, rents and services in le Peek and of the reversion of Boythorp manor with appurtenances; rent, 66s. 8d. p.a., payable at the two terms of the year " 33
32. Maud and her lover are said to have murdered Sir William Cantelupe in 1375 (Roskell, 1992,
Vol.2, pp.449-450).
33. Manchester University: Crutchley Muniments CRU/18."
She had earlier stated that Alice's sister Joan was married to Robert Neville of Scotton.
Doug Smith
"In 1371 Sir Nicholas and Alice arranged to lease for 40 years, to their niece Maud Neville, sole heir of her parents, and her ill-fated first husband Sir William de Cantelupe 32 , "their purparty of Le Parkhall manor with appurtenances; saving all manner of rents, advowsons, profits of courts, their purparty of mills and the woods and pastures of their parks, and their purparty of Colebotirley, Asshouere, Chestirfeld, Aluy Wod, Grayhirstmore, Brampton Wode, and Molotgroue, of lands and tenements, rents and services in le Peek and of the reversion of Boythorp manor with appurtenances; rent, 66s. 8d. p.a., payable at the two terms of the year " 33
32. Maud and her lover are said to have murdered Sir William Cantelupe in 1375 (Roskell, 1992,
Vol.2, pp.449-450).
33. Manchester University: Crutchley Muniments CRU/18."
She had earlier stated that Alice's sister Joan was married to Robert Neville of Scotton.
Doug Smith
John Watson
May 5, 2016, 7:47:08 AM5/5/16
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There is a detailed account of the trial following the murder of Sir William Cantlpe in 1375 in Rosamund Sillem, ed., Some Sessions of the Peace in Lincolnshire: 1360-1375, Lincoln Record Society, 30 (1937), lxvi et seq.
https://archive.org/details/publicationslinc30lincuoft
Maud de Neville, husband of Sir William de Cauntelou was one of the sixteen people accused of his murder, or complicity in it. Sillem presumes that she and Thomas de Kydale, sheriff of Lincoln in 1374-75 and 1377-78, were lovers and conspired to murder William. Kydale's position helped to ensure that Maud and most of the other accused were acquitted. Two of William's servants were found guilty and executed.
For other possible explanations for the motive of this murder, see:
Frederik Pedersen, Murder, Mayhem and a very small Penis
https://www.academia.edu/187393/Murder_Mayhem_and_a_very_small_Penis
Regards,
John
al...@mindspring.com
May 5, 2016, 10:50:42 AM5/5/16
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Hi John
Jonathan S. Mackman, The Lincolnshire Gentry and the Wars of the Roses, D. Phil. Thesis, Univ. of York, 1999, pps 279-301. Has some on these families (avail online).
Rod Collins has some materials online about Nicholas de Cauntleou with the other explanation:
http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/who-murdered-sir-william-cantilupe-and-why.
From Rod Collins:
"There are some characteristics of Sir Nicholas II that we can be fairly certain of. That he was excessively tall and had a deep voice! Despite his seeming manliness, the cause of Katherine's panic was that her new hero had no external genitals! Here we have it in her own evidence as related by her father to the court at York:
"Katarinam referre quod sepius temptavit manibus suis cum jacuit in lecto cum dicto Nicholao et ipse dormiebat locum genitalium dicti Nicholai et quod nulla palpare nee invenire potuit ibidem et quod locus in quo genitalia sua deberent esse est ita planus sicut manus hominis."
In plain English it states that as he was showing no signs of sexual interest in her she waited until he fell asleep; she then felt with her hand in order to arouse him. To her horror all was smooth where his genitalia should have been as obvious as a man's hand! :shock:
It seems that Sir Nicholas had a condition which today we term 'male pseudo-hermaphroditism ' This affects roughly one in six thousand male babies born. Apart from the height and voice characteristics, the adult cannot satisfactorily pro-generate and tends to die young. Sir Nicholas died at the age of 29.
Sir Nicholas tried desperately to 'keep a lid on the revelation' by abducting Katherine and a group of her servants back to Greasley Castle and trying to force her to declare publicly that they had consummated the marriage. According to her father's priest, Thomas Waus, he showed her a room fitted with manacles where she would be detained if she did not drop the case and make the desired statement: "...Quicquid vos dicitis ego volo fateri vobiscum et in omnibus concordare."
Sir Nicholas was probably horrified at the thought of having to undergo a physical examination by a committee of 'honestum matronae' - 'honest matrons'!
Eventually Sir Nicholas calmed down and as brute force didn't seem to solve the problem, he decided to work within the law and determinedly pursued the support of the Apostolic See which is why he was in Avignon when he died."
Doug
May have come from the article you cited.
Jonathan S. Mackman, The Lincolnshire Gentry and the Wars of the Roses, D. Phil. Thesis, Univ. of York, 1999, pps 279-301. Has some on these families (avail online).
Rod Collins has some materials online about Nicholas de Cauntleou with the other explanation:
http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/who-murdered-sir-william-cantilupe-and-why.
From Rod Collins:
"There are some characteristics of Sir Nicholas II that we can be fairly certain of. That he was excessively tall and had a deep voice! Despite his seeming manliness, the cause of Katherine's panic was that her new hero had no external genitals! Here we have it in her own evidence as related by her father to the court at York:
"Katarinam referre quod sepius temptavit manibus suis cum jacuit in lecto cum dicto Nicholao et ipse dormiebat locum genitalium dicti Nicholai et quod nulla palpare nee invenire potuit ibidem et quod locus in quo genitalia sua deberent esse est ita planus sicut manus hominis."
In plain English it states that as he was showing no signs of sexual interest in her she waited until he fell asleep; she then felt with her hand in order to arouse him. To her horror all was smooth where his genitalia should have been as obvious as a man's hand! :shock:
It seems that Sir Nicholas had a condition which today we term 'male pseudo-hermaphroditism ' This affects roughly one in six thousand male babies born. Apart from the height and voice characteristics, the adult cannot satisfactorily pro-generate and tends to die young. Sir Nicholas died at the age of 29.
Sir Nicholas tried desperately to 'keep a lid on the revelation' by abducting Katherine and a group of her servants back to Greasley Castle and trying to force her to declare publicly that they had consummated the marriage. According to her father's priest, Thomas Waus, he showed her a room fitted with manacles where she would be detained if she did not drop the case and make the desired statement: "...Quicquid vos dicitis ego volo fateri vobiscum et in omnibus concordare."
Sir Nicholas was probably horrified at the thought of having to undergo a physical examination by a committee of 'honestum matronae' - 'honest matrons'!
Eventually Sir Nicholas calmed down and as brute force didn't seem to solve the problem, he decided to work within the law and determinedly pursued the support of the Apostolic See which is why he was in Avignon when he died."
Doug
May have come from the article you cited.
Douglas Richardson
May 6, 2016, 11:27:15 PM5/6/16
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Dear John ~
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
I see you have identified Mary, wife of Sir Ralph Daubeney and Sir John Bussy, as previously being the wife of John de Multon, who died in Prussia, 18 August 1368. Can I ask your source for the marriage of Mary and John de Multon?
Recently I located two Common Pleas lawsuits which involve Sir Ralph Daubeney and his wife, Mary. The first lawsuit establishes that Ralph and Mary were married before Trinity term 1376.
l. In 1376 Ralph and his wife, Mary, sued Robert Blades in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 10 marks. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/463, image 62f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/E3/CP40no463/aCP40no463fronts/IMG_0062.htm).
2. In 1377 Ralph and his wife, Mary, sued John del More, of Asgarby, Lincolnshire and Robert Carter in the Court of Common Pleas regarding their fee at Kirkby la Thorpe, Lincolnshire. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/466, image 63 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no466/466_0063.htm).
I believe the fee at Kirkby la Thorpe, Lincolnshire was part of Mary's dower from her first marriage to John de Multon. If so, this information helps confirm Mary's marriage to John de Multon.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
I see you have identified Mary, wife of Sir Ralph Daubeney and Sir John Bussy, as previously being the wife of John de Multon, who died in Prussia, 18 August 1368. Can I ask your source for the marriage of Mary and John de Multon?
Recently I located two Common Pleas lawsuits which involve Sir Ralph Daubeney and his wife, Mary. The first lawsuit establishes that Ralph and Mary were married before Trinity term 1376.
l. In 1376 Ralph and his wife, Mary, sued Robert Blades in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 10 marks. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/463, image 62f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/E3/CP40no463/aCP40no463fronts/IMG_0062.htm).
2. In 1377 Ralph and his wife, Mary, sued John del More, of Asgarby, Lincolnshire and Robert Carter in the Court of Common Pleas regarding their fee at Kirkby la Thorpe, Lincolnshire. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/466, image 63 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no466/466_0063.htm).
I believe the fee at Kirkby la Thorpe, Lincolnshire was part of Mary's dower from her first marriage to John de Multon. If so, this information helps confirm Mary's marriage to John de Multon.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
John Watson
May 7, 2016, 12:10:03 AM5/7/16
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The information on Mary's first marriage to John de Multon of Frampton comes from her inquisition post mortem.
"Mary wife of John Bussy, knight. Writ, 8 July, 22 Richard II [8 July 1398]. Lincoln, Inquisition taken at Lincoln, Tuesday before St Mark, 22 Richard II [22 April 1399]. She held the under-mentioned lands for life by the gift of John de Multon, knight, deceased, formerly her husband, ... "
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 17, Richard II (1988), No. 1127.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol17/pp402-417
The information that she was married secondly to Sir Ralph Daubney comes from another inquisition:
28 June 1386, Inquisition post mortem of Giles Daubenay, knight. Lincoln, "South Ingelby. The manor, in Saxilby and Broxholm, with the advowson of the church of Broxholm and all other its appurtenances, held of the lord de Roos, as of his honor of his castle of Bewer, by service of 2 1/2 knight's fees and 21s. 4d. rent yearly. The manor renders to Mary wife of John Bossy, knight, formerly the wife of Ralph Daubeney, knight, Giles's father £33 6s. 8d. yearly, with a clause of entry in default of payment."
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 16, Richard II (1974), No. 367.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol16/pp132-135
Any ideas on who Mary was?
Best regards,
John
John Watson
May 7, 2016, 12:16:25 AM5/7/16
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My previous post thanking you for these links to the Neville of Scotton pedigree seems to have got lost on the aether. Thank you again.
Best regards,
John
rbe...@fernside.co.nz
May 7, 2016, 11:26:10 PM5/7/16
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Joan Deincourt and Robert de Neville married in 1343 and Maud de Neville was married to William de Cantilupe by 1371. In the intervening 28 years it seemed chronologically unlikely that a son could have been born early enough to father a daughter married by 1371. Joan's mother, Maud Bugge, was under age in 1325 i.e. under the age of 14/15, so unlikely to have had Joan, (who I believe was the elder daughter since her sister Alice's marriage was not arranged until 1346), until around 1330-1331. This is consistent with Joan being around 12-13 upon her marriage to Robert de Neville and not likely to bear children for another few years. So any child would probably be born no earlier than 1345 and certainly no later than 1353 when Robert died. For a son Philip to have a married daughter in 1371, he would have had to father her at the age of 14, which seemed too much of a stretch. I think Philip must have been an elder brother of Robert de Neville in the light that Philip's wife Sarah died in 1344 according to Baker. If that is the case Philip certainly wasn't son of Joan Deincourt.
Incidentally, the mother of the unfortunate Nicholas and William de Cantilupe was Joan, eldest daughter of Adam, Lord Welles (d. 1344/45). I didn't see this mentioned in Pederson's article.
Cheers
Rosie
John Watson
May 8, 2016, 1:51:16 AM5/8/16
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Nice to hear from you. What sources are you using for Robert de Neville of Scotton and Joan Deincourt? I am unable to find any contemporary references to them in any of the published calendars or feet of fines, etc.
The exact dates of death given in Nichols' pedigree of the family seem to be derived from inquisitions, but I have been unable to find any.
Best regards,
John
Douglas Richardson
May 8, 2016, 6:08:03 PM5/8/16
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Thanks for sharing your sources John. Much appreciated.
I can add one additional snippet of information regarding the much married Mary.
Foster, History of the Villages of Aisthorpe and Thorpe-le-Fallows (1927): 99-101 indicates that Mary Daubeney, as "lady of North Ingleby," presented to a mediety of the church of St. Denis at Kirkby by Laythorpe, Lincolnshire in 1380.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
I can add one additional snippet of information regarding the much married Mary.
Foster, History of the Villages of Aisthorpe and Thorpe-le-Fallows (1927): 99-101 indicates that Mary Daubeney, as "lady of North Ingleby," presented to a mediety of the church of St. Denis at Kirkby by Laythorpe, Lincolnshire in 1380.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
al...@mindspring.com
May 8, 2016, 6:14:16 PM5/8/16
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I believe this is her ipm:
MARY WIDOW OF JOHN BUSSYE, KNIGHT
138
Writ 6 May 1406.
LINCOLN. Inquisition. Boston 2 June
She held in her demesne as of fee: South Ingleby, the manor, with its appurtenances in Kirkby la Thorpe, Marton, Willingham by Stow and elsewhere, of Thomas earl of Kent, by knight service, annual value £21. It was taken into the earl's hands owing to the minority of John son and heir of Maud, daughter of Mary. He held it from her death until the day of his forfeiture; then it was taken into the king's hands and held by the escheators who answered for the profits. Frampton, the manor called 'Multon Hall', with its appurtenances in Frampton, Wyberton, Kirton and Boston, of the lord of the earldom of Richmond by knight service, annual value £22. At her death it was in the hands of the keeper of the lands of Queen Anne, and he took the manor of Frampton and its profits owing to the death and the minority until the day of the king's coronation. Since then it has been held by Thomas Graa of York and his executors, by the king's grant, paying £22 at the exchequer by equal parts at Easter and Michaelmas. Miningsby and Stretton, the manors, of the honour of Bolingbroke of the duchy of Lancaster by knight service, annual value £8. The ministers of the duchy have held and taken the profits since her death. Miningsby, lands and tenements, of Lord Harrington and of Lord Fitzwalter of his manor of Skirbeck by knight service, annual value 40s. They have been in the hands of the lords since her death. Coningsby and Wood Enderby, lands and tenements, of the bishop of Carlisle in socage of his soke of Horncastle, annual value 10 marks, occupied and held until the present by Thomas Graa of York as next friend of the heir for his support. Hemingby and Goulceby, various lands, of Lord Fitzwalter by knight service of his manor of Skirbeck, annual value £8, in the hands of the lord since her death owing to the minority. Saltfleetby, lands, tenements and rents, of the earl of Richmond, service unknown, annual value £9, occupied by Thomas Graa as above. Bassingham, the manor, of the lady of Bassingham by knight service, annual value 4 marks, occupied by the lady and her executors owing to the minority. Heapham, 1 messuage and 2 bovates, of Walter Cokesey, knight, of his manor of Lea by knight service, annual value 26s.8d., occupied by him and his heirs owing to the minority. She died on 6 Feb. 1399. John, son of her daughter Maud, her next heir, is aged 21 years and more.
C 137/56, no.53
Doug Smith
MARY WIDOW OF JOHN BUSSYE, KNIGHT
138
Writ 6 May 1406.
LINCOLN. Inquisition. Boston 2 June
She held in her demesne as of fee: South Ingleby, the manor, with its appurtenances in Kirkby la Thorpe, Marton, Willingham by Stow and elsewhere, of Thomas earl of Kent, by knight service, annual value £21. It was taken into the earl's hands owing to the minority of John son and heir of Maud, daughter of Mary. He held it from her death until the day of his forfeiture; then it was taken into the king's hands and held by the escheators who answered for the profits. Frampton, the manor called 'Multon Hall', with its appurtenances in Frampton, Wyberton, Kirton and Boston, of the lord of the earldom of Richmond by knight service, annual value £22. At her death it was in the hands of the keeper of the lands of Queen Anne, and he took the manor of Frampton and its profits owing to the death and the minority until the day of the king's coronation. Since then it has been held by Thomas Graa of York and his executors, by the king's grant, paying £22 at the exchequer by equal parts at Easter and Michaelmas. Miningsby and Stretton, the manors, of the honour of Bolingbroke of the duchy of Lancaster by knight service, annual value £8. The ministers of the duchy have held and taken the profits since her death. Miningsby, lands and tenements, of Lord Harrington and of Lord Fitzwalter of his manor of Skirbeck by knight service, annual value 40s. They have been in the hands of the lords since her death. Coningsby and Wood Enderby, lands and tenements, of the bishop of Carlisle in socage of his soke of Horncastle, annual value 10 marks, occupied and held until the present by Thomas Graa of York as next friend of the heir for his support. Hemingby and Goulceby, various lands, of Lord Fitzwalter by knight service of his manor of Skirbeck, annual value £8, in the hands of the lord since her death owing to the minority. Saltfleetby, lands, tenements and rents, of the earl of Richmond, service unknown, annual value £9, occupied by Thomas Graa as above. Bassingham, the manor, of the lady of Bassingham by knight service, annual value 4 marks, occupied by the lady and her executors owing to the minority. Heapham, 1 messuage and 2 bovates, of Walter Cokesey, knight, of his manor of Lea by knight service, annual value 26s.8d., occupied by him and his heirs owing to the minority. She died on 6 Feb. 1399. John, son of her daughter Maud, her next heir, is aged 21 years and more.
C 137/56, no.53
Doug Smith
al...@mindspring.com
May 8, 2016, 6:15:10 PM5/8/16
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one of them I meant..
Doug Smith
Doug Smith
Jason Quick
May 8, 2016, 8:14:36 PM5/8/16
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>
> Dear Jason,
> My previous post thanking you for these links to the Neville of Scotton pedigree seems to have got lost on the aether. Thank you again.
>
> Best regards,
> John
Here are links to the Nevill pedigree from Baker's history that I took with my phone.
Pg 82
https://goo.gl/photos/3GsXR7TxgNMqw2xG7
Pg 83 Pedigree
https://goo.gl/photos/7fe5pqCwuq63nvMf7
Extra .. Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals. The small pedigree has Phillip(I)de Nevill as son to Ralph de Neville(Nephew to Phillip de Aubigny)in error Combo of page 17,18 charters and Pedigree https://goo.gl/photos/ADsbmLZBhMwnN65Z8
Combo of Pg 23,24 Neville charters
https://goo.gl/photos/4enHf58h9uqD75YB8
Regards Jason
rbe...@fernside.co.nz
May 8, 2016, 11:28:45 PM5/8/16
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The pedigrees of Neville of Brampton and Scotton seem very conflicted and the information I have comes from a variety of sources - but the dates pertaining to Robert Neville come from Baker who seemed precisely informed. Robert's date of death is consistent with his widow Joan's remarriage to Sir John Ryvel by 1356, for example. Having said that, I've not seen a contemporary reference to Robert. I'm wondering if the Lansdowne document was the source of all the information, though looking at the BL catalogue the reference number does not look quite right. The focus of my paper was on the Longfords so I did not pursue the Nevilles to any great extent.
Cheers
Rosie
John Watson
May 9, 2016, 4:49:23 AM5/9/16
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Thanks for those photos, much appreciated. The charters from Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals confirm something which I have long suspected: the identity of Isabel wife of Philip de Neville (III).
She was, I believe, Isabel daughter of William de Erghum and widow of Peter de Percy (II) of Wharram Percy, Yorkshire.
Her seal which is described on page 18, shows: Seal on tag: round 1.12 inch: red. Within a traceried trefoil opening three shields of arms meeting in a point: (i) three water bougets (Ros); (ii) a chevron between three birds; a fess of five fusils (Neville of Scotton): SIGILLVM . ISABELLE . DE. NEVILE
The arms which are not identified; a chevron between three birds, are the arms of Erghum.
Best Regards,
John
al...@mindspring.com
May 9, 2016, 7:37:46 AM5/9/16
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Hi John and Jason:
from J E E S Sharp and A E Stamp, 'Inquisitions Post Mortem, Edward II, File 60', in Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 6, Edward II (London, 1910), pp. 74-86. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol6/pp74-86 [accessed 9 May 2016].
PETER DE PERCY.
Writ, 4 February, 11 Edward II.
[YORK.] Inq. Wednesday 25 April, 11 Edward II.
Kernetby. The manor, held in fee tail to the said Peter and Isabel his wife and the heirs of their bodies, of Sir Henry de Percy by homage and suit of court at the manor of Topclyf, rendering yearly to Sir Robert de Percy, father of the said Peter, 80l. for the life of the said Robert.
Quarrom Percy. The manor, sometime held of the king in chief by service of finding an armed serjeant in the king's wars for forty days at his own costs, and doing suit at the county (court) of York; but by the king's licence the said Peter demised the same to the said Robert his father for life. And the said Peter died seised of no other lands in the East Riding.
His daughters, Eustacia (Wstancia) aged 4, and Joan aged 2, are his next heirs.
Writ of certiorari super vero valore, concerning lands &c., as well held in dower or otherwise for life of the inheritance of the said Peter's daughter and heir, as in the king's hand, 11 October, 14 Edward II.
[YORK.] Extent. Thursday after St. Martin in the Winter, 14 Edward II.
Kernetby. The manor is held by Isabel late the wife of the said Peter in villenage, of the inheritance of Eustacia his daughter and heir, of Henry son and heir of Henry de Perci by knight's service.
Ilkele. The manor is held for life by the said Isabel, of the said inheritance, of the said Henry by knight's service.
Wharrum Perci. The manor is held for life by Robert de Perci, of the said inheritance, of the king in chief by service of finding an armed serjeant in the king's wars in England at his own costs.
Boulton Perci. The manor is held for life by Isabel late the wife of John de Vesci, of the said inheritance, service unspecified.
Skoreby. The manor with certain lands &c. in Stamford Bridge (Ponte Bello), is held for life by the said Isabel, tenure unspecified.
Sutton upon Derwent. The manor was held by the said Peter whose heiress is the said Eustacia, tenure unspecified.
Writ of plenius certiorari to the escheator to enquire whether the said Peter died seised of other lands &c. not mentioned in the inquisition previously made, 16 August, 1 Edward III.
YORK. Inq. Sunday the morrow of the Decollation of St. John the Baptist, 1 Edward III. (defaced.)
Wharrom Percy. The manor with the advowson of the church was sometime held by Robert de Percy, who gave it to Peter his son and his heirs for ever, and he demised it to the said Robert for life with reversion to himself and his heirs.
Ilkele. The manor and town, 12s. rent in Sutton upon Derwent from a messuage and 12a. land which Peter de Steynford sometime held for life, and 24s. rent in Stamford Bridge from lands which John le Clerc of Ponte Belli sometime held, were sometime held by Peter de Percy, who gave them to Isabel daughter of William de Ergham, knight, for life, who now holds them, with reversion to the said Peter and his heirs.
Boulton Percy and Scorreby. The manors, with certain lands &c. in Stamford Bridge were sometime held by Robert de Percy, who demised them to Isabel de Vescy for her life, who still holds them, with reversion to the said Peter and his heirs.
Sutton upon Derwent. The manor with certain tenements in Cathewait and Kyngeston upon Hull, and 10l. rent in the city of York, were held by the said Peter by the gift of Robert his father.
The manor and town of Ilkele are held of Henry de Percy by service of 24s. yearly; the 12s. rent in Sutton are held of the said Henry and of Peter de Malo Lacu as parcel of the manor of Sutton by knight's service; and the 24s. rent in Stamford Bridge are held of the said Henry by knight's service.
The manors of Boulton Percy and Scorreby, with the lands in Stamford Bridge, are held of the said Henry by knight's service.
The manor of Sutton with tenements in Cathewait, is held of the said Henry and of Peter de Malo Lacu by knight's service.
The tenements in Kyngeston upon Hull are held of Gilbert de Aton, service unknown.
The 10l. rent in the city of York are held of the king in free burgage.
After the death of the said Peter 12 years ago, Isabel late his wife and Eustacia his daughter and heir, then under age, entered upon the manor of Sutton and tenements in Cathewait, as the right of the said Eustacia and held them peacefully for a quarter of a year, and afterwards Robert de Percy intruded upon the said manor &c. and held them for six years, and after his death Beatrice late his wife held them for five years three quarters and still holds them. Joan, sometime the daughter of the said Peter and sister of the said Eustacia, died and was buried at Grymesby three years ago and more. The said Robert also intruded upon the tenements in Kyngeston upon Hull, held them for two years and then gave them for a debt to William Gra of York, who stills holds them, until he should have levied the debt. He also intruded upon the said rents in the city of York, received them for two years and similarly granted them to Thomas de Horneby and Katherine his wife for a debt, who received the same for six years, and after the death of the said Thomas the said Katherine received the same, and still receives them.
C. Edw. II. File 60. (15.)
Doug Smith
from J E E S Sharp and A E Stamp, 'Inquisitions Post Mortem, Edward II, File 60', in Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 6, Edward II (London, 1910), pp. 74-86. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol6/pp74-86 [accessed 9 May 2016].
PETER DE PERCY.
Writ, 4 February, 11 Edward II.
[YORK.] Inq. Wednesday 25 April, 11 Edward II.
Kernetby. The manor, held in fee tail to the said Peter and Isabel his wife and the heirs of their bodies, of Sir Henry de Percy by homage and suit of court at the manor of Topclyf, rendering yearly to Sir Robert de Percy, father of the said Peter, 80l. for the life of the said Robert.
Quarrom Percy. The manor, sometime held of the king in chief by service of finding an armed serjeant in the king's wars for forty days at his own costs, and doing suit at the county (court) of York; but by the king's licence the said Peter demised the same to the said Robert his father for life. And the said Peter died seised of no other lands in the East Riding.
His daughters, Eustacia (Wstancia) aged 4, and Joan aged 2, are his next heirs.
Writ of certiorari super vero valore, concerning lands &c., as well held in dower or otherwise for life of the inheritance of the said Peter's daughter and heir, as in the king's hand, 11 October, 14 Edward II.
[YORK.] Extent. Thursday after St. Martin in the Winter, 14 Edward II.
Kernetby. The manor is held by Isabel late the wife of the said Peter in villenage, of the inheritance of Eustacia his daughter and heir, of Henry son and heir of Henry de Perci by knight's service.
Ilkele. The manor is held for life by the said Isabel, of the said inheritance, of the said Henry by knight's service.
Wharrum Perci. The manor is held for life by Robert de Perci, of the said inheritance, of the king in chief by service of finding an armed serjeant in the king's wars in England at his own costs.
Boulton Perci. The manor is held for life by Isabel late the wife of John de Vesci, of the said inheritance, service unspecified.
Skoreby. The manor with certain lands &c. in Stamford Bridge (Ponte Bello), is held for life by the said Isabel, tenure unspecified.
Sutton upon Derwent. The manor was held by the said Peter whose heiress is the said Eustacia, tenure unspecified.
Writ of plenius certiorari to the escheator to enquire whether the said Peter died seised of other lands &c. not mentioned in the inquisition previously made, 16 August, 1 Edward III.
YORK. Inq. Sunday the morrow of the Decollation of St. John the Baptist, 1 Edward III. (defaced.)
Wharrom Percy. The manor with the advowson of the church was sometime held by Robert de Percy, who gave it to Peter his son and his heirs for ever, and he demised it to the said Robert for life with reversion to himself and his heirs.
Ilkele. The manor and town, 12s. rent in Sutton upon Derwent from a messuage and 12a. land which Peter de Steynford sometime held for life, and 24s. rent in Stamford Bridge from lands which John le Clerc of Ponte Belli sometime held, were sometime held by Peter de Percy, who gave them to Isabel daughter of William de Ergham, knight, for life, who now holds them, with reversion to the said Peter and his heirs.
Boulton Percy and Scorreby. The manors, with certain lands &c. in Stamford Bridge were sometime held by Robert de Percy, who demised them to Isabel de Vescy for her life, who still holds them, with reversion to the said Peter and his heirs.
Sutton upon Derwent. The manor with certain tenements in Cathewait and Kyngeston upon Hull, and 10l. rent in the city of York, were held by the said Peter by the gift of Robert his father.
The manor and town of Ilkele are held of Henry de Percy by service of 24s. yearly; the 12s. rent in Sutton are held of the said Henry and of Peter de Malo Lacu as parcel of the manor of Sutton by knight's service; and the 24s. rent in Stamford Bridge are held of the said Henry by knight's service.
The manors of Boulton Percy and Scorreby, with the lands in Stamford Bridge, are held of the said Henry by knight's service.
The manor of Sutton with tenements in Cathewait, is held of the said Henry and of Peter de Malo Lacu by knight's service.
The tenements in Kyngeston upon Hull are held of Gilbert de Aton, service unknown.
The 10l. rent in the city of York are held of the king in free burgage.
After the death of the said Peter 12 years ago, Isabel late his wife and Eustacia his daughter and heir, then under age, entered upon the manor of Sutton and tenements in Cathewait, as the right of the said Eustacia and held them peacefully for a quarter of a year, and afterwards Robert de Percy intruded upon the said manor &c. and held them for six years, and after his death Beatrice late his wife held them for five years three quarters and still holds them. Joan, sometime the daughter of the said Peter and sister of the said Eustacia, died and was buried at Grymesby three years ago and more. The said Robert also intruded upon the tenements in Kyngeston upon Hull, held them for two years and then gave them for a debt to William Gra of York, who stills holds them, until he should have levied the debt. He also intruded upon the said rents in the city of York, received them for two years and similarly granted them to Thomas de Horneby and Katherine his wife for a debt, who received the same for six years, and after the death of the said Thomas the said Katherine received the same, and still receives them.
C. Edw. II. File 60. (15.)
Doug Smith
al...@mindspring.com
May 9, 2016, 9:20:15 AM5/9/16
to
She is also called Isabel dau. William de Ergham in:
Early Yorkshire Charters: Volume 11, The Percy Fee, William Farrer, Charles Travis Clay, 106, 109-112, 149, 152.
> Doug Smith
Early Yorkshire Charters: Volume 11, The Percy Fee, William Farrer, Charles Travis Clay, 106, 109-112, 149, 152.
> Doug Smith
al...@mindspring.com
May 9, 2016, 9:35:28 AM5/9/16
to
Also
Calendar of the Close Rolls Preserved in the Public Record Office ..., Volume 1, p 91. Feb 7, 1327. Westminster.
"Philip son of Philip de Neville, knight, William son of William de Erghum, and Thomas his brother acknowledge that they owe to to Philip de Nevill of Scotton, the elder, knight, 1000l.: to be levied, in default of payment, of their lands and chattels in co. Derby."
Doug Smith
Calendar of the Close Rolls Preserved in the Public Record Office ..., Volume 1, p 91. Feb 7, 1327. Westminster.
"Philip son of Philip de Neville, knight, William son of William de Erghum, and Thomas his brother acknowledge that they owe to to Philip de Nevill of Scotton, the elder, knight, 1000l.: to be levied, in default of payment, of their lands and chattels in co. Derby."
Doug Smith
John Watson
May 9, 2016, 10:18:35 AM5/9/16
to
Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward II, vol. 2: 1313-1318 (1893), 258.
Regards,
John
John Watson
May 9, 2016, 10:48:01 AM5/9/16
to
10 February 1335, York. Octave of the Purification, 9 Edw. III. Quindene of Easter, 10 Edw. III, [15 April 1336]. John de Heslarton parson of the church of Hatfeld, querent, Walter de Heslarton, chivaler, and Eustachia his wife, deforciants, of the manors of Cathwayt, Scorby, Kernetby, and Sutton on Derwent, and the moiety of a knight's fee in Sutton and Cathwayt. John de Woume and K... and William son of John Gra put in claims.
John de Heslarton, parson of the church of Hatfeld, querent, Walter de Heslarton, chivaler, and Eustachia his wife, deforciant, of the manors of Cathwayt, Scorby, Kernetby, and Sutton on Derwent, and the moiety of a knight's fee in Sutton and Cathwayt To hold (subject to the life estate in the manor of Kernetby, which Isabel wife of Philip de Nevill holds of the inheritance of Eustachia) to Walter and Eustachia and the heirs of Walter. Philip and Isabel did fealty.
Feet of Fines: CP 25/1/273/111, number 5. (YASRS, xlii, 95)
Best regards,
John
al...@mindspring.com
May 9, 2016, 12:13:42 PM5/9/16
to
Also shown in a number of places online:
The Survey of the County of York, Taken by John de Kirkby, Commonly Called ... John Kirkby, p 281.
"William de Ergham... and Thomas de Outhenby, or de Aunby, and William de Ergham as representatives, the one of Christian, the other of Joan, sisters of Osbert de Arches, while Edmund Mansel claimed a third part, as son and heir of Alice another sister."
Jury determined Alice a bastard.
Which helps determine some about the relationship between some of these families. Not clear it is the same William de Ergham.
Doug Smith
The Survey of the County of York, Taken by John de Kirkby, Commonly Called ... John Kirkby, p 281.
"William de Ergham... and Thomas de Outhenby, or de Aunby, and William de Ergham as representatives, the one of Christian, the other of Joan, sisters of Osbert de Arches, while Edmund Mansel claimed a third part, as son and heir of Alice another sister."
Jury determined Alice a bastard.
Which helps determine some about the relationship between some of these families. Not clear it is the same William de Ergham.
Doug Smith
Message has been deleted
John Watson
May 9, 2016, 2:13:55 PM5/9/16
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1. Malger de Erghum married Joan, sister of Osbert de Arches
2. Walter de Erghum
3. William de Erghum (d. aft. 1322) m. Eustache
4. William de Erghum (d. bef. 2 Apr 1347) m. Sibyl dau. of Henry fitz Aucher
5. William de Erghum (d. aft 1405) m. Katherine dau. of Hugh de Cressy
6a. Juliana de Erghum (d.s.p) m. John Aske of Ousthorpe (d. 2 Jun 1429) (first wife)
6b. Sibyl de Erghum (d. abt 1408) m. Robert Cumberworth (d. 1405)
Regards,
John
al...@mindspring.com
May 9, 2016, 2:36:17 PM5/9/16
to
That is very helpful, I had just started to assemble one.
Doug Smith
John Watson
May 10, 2016, 10:47:46 AM5/10/16
to
1. Malger de Erghum married Joan, sister of Osbert de Arches
2. Walter de Erghum
4. William de Erghum (d. bef. 2 Apr 1347) m. Sibyl dau. of Aucher fitz Henry [not Henry fitz Aucher]
5. William de Erghum (d. aft 1405) m. Katherine dau. of Hugh de Cressy
6a. Juliana de Erghum (d.s.p) m. John Aske of Ousthorpe (d. 2 Jun 1429) (first wife)
6b. Sibyl de Erghum (d. abt 1408) m. Robert Cumberworth (d. 1405)
Sibyl, was a daughter of Aucher fitz Henry, as shown in the summary of the Common Pleas case below, and not his son Henry fitz Aucher as suggested in Complete Peerage, vol. 5, 415.
1364, Trinity Term. Miles de Stapelton, chivaler, and Sibel de Erghum claim against Master John de Snayth 30 acres of land and 6 acres of meadow in Carleton near Snayth, as their right and inheritance, in which John has no entry except through a demise which John de Bella Aqua, sometime husband of Laderana Brewes, great-grandmother of Miles and grandmother of Sibel (whose heirs they are), made in the lifetime of Laderana, when she could not contradict him. From Laderana the right descended to Sibel and Joan, as daughters and heirs; Sibel's purparty descended to Nicholas, as son and heir, and from him to Miles, the plaintiff, as son and heir; Joan's purparty descended to Sibel, the plaintiff, as daughter and heir. Judgment was given for the defendant.
W. Paley Baildon, Baildon and the Baildons, vol. 1 (1912), 337.
Regards,
John
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